TheRPGSite

I have to admit this has happened to me a few times. I was interested in the game but nature of its fans and community were just too irritating to deal with so I avoided getting into it. I won't say which games; it might insult some of fans of them that post here. And it was rarely every single person that liked but what seemed to be majority of them.

Actually no. As the rabid fans that I don't care for tend to be fan boys for games I don't care for anyways. So no harm, no foul for me.

Actually yes.  I had games I wanted to try and the fans just ruin it for me because I don't want to play with them.  The reason why I don't want to play with them is because their are assholes that talk, but don't do the walk.  A lot of these fanboyz tend to be social justice warriors that would screech out diversity one second and tell a black person to shut the fuck up the next second.  There is a reason I don't play a lot of FATE and avoid narration games these days.

Yes! Back in the 90's, even though I was already running it, I quit Vampire: the Masquerade thanks to the local fans and the "game culture" they created for themselves and imposed upon everyone else by virtue of "having the grown-up game women liked" where I played.

My Vampire games were just like regular RPGs, so I got labelled the "imature" Vampire GM (Oops, sorry -- Storyteller!) for not creating the free form improv formless thing they liked to run. Vampire "adventures" with tombs and the mob and fighting werewolves were forbidden! You had to play through these pointless meetings, parties and conclaves and rejoice in this amateur theater of bad dialogue. It was dreadful. It was a dreadful time. Please stop asking random people inside the store "what clan are you." Stop. JUST FUCKING STOP I'M GOING TO FUCKING BRAKE YOUR LEGS IF YOU

Sorry, had a flashback there.  :D

This makes no sense to me. I already have a gaming group. If I want to try a new game, I'll just play it with them. The state of the game's fanbase out in the wild makes no difference to me at all.

1) During the Clinton Administration the White Wolf WoD games crushed all other role-playing around my Illinois college town. I very quickly grew very sick of the whole damn thing. It didn't help that the local LARP was very serious, very hardcore, almost "Cultish". The local WW fans all chain-smoked too, (It was part of this whole insufferable "We're the cool nerds" attitude) which made playing with them unpleasant and later, as my health declined, impossible. Like the music of Nirvana, I can appreciate the game line more now that it's no longer an overbearing presence sucking all the oxygen out of the room but just another thing.  

2) Every single time I've ever played Shadowrun the GM and/or the other players have been wretched and/or douchey creepazoid mutants. I know that this is just bad luck on my part, that there is nothing "Wrong" with the game itself, but still...

Hell yeah. So much of the experience of game is the local players, and if you can't mesh with the fans of a game, its hard to get into the system and setting.

And vice versa. I've played a few lame games because the fans were fun people to game with and their enthusiasm for this so-so game plus their demeanor as people worth hanging out with made it much more fun than RAW.

I'm completely oblivious to any game's fanbase.

When I read TBP more often I'd often find myself getting annoyed at the giddy exuberance of the fans... recommending the game-of-the-week for every purpose, finding fault with the character of anyone who spoke ill of it and generally sucking all the digital air out of the room.
Fate and Savage Worlds were both victims of that... though I'd had an interest and played both of them. I'd still like to play some more Fate, but not with the sorts of folks I usually see pushing it.

Quote from: Nexus;823976I have to admit this has happened to me a few times. I was interested in the game but nature of its fans and community were just too irritating to deal with so I avoided getting into it. I won't say which games; it might insult some of fans of them that post here. And it was rarely every single person that liked but what seemed to be majority of them.

Yes!

Vampire LARPers have irritated the fuck out of me so much that I lost interest in trying the tabletop game.

Transhumanist wankers. Their wacky quasireligious worship of technology and how it will solve EVERYTHING has turned me off of GURPS: Transhuman Space and Eclipse Phase.

4rons turned me off of 4E completely. I could see playing the game for certain adventures because it didn't suck as bad as some, but fuck the 4rons.

Quote from: jeff37923;824010Vampire LARPers have irritated the fuck out of me so much that I lost interest in trying the tabletop game.

There was a group of Vampire fans who pretty much took over a coffeehose I used to go to. They annoyed the crap out of everyone but I associated their disfunction more with the fact that the bulk of them were 'thespians' in the Theater dept. at the university across the street.

Another vote for/against creepy ass White Wolfers in the great heyday

Quote from: jeff37923;824010Transhumanist wankers. Their wacky quasireligious worship of technology and how it will solve EVERYTHING has turned me off of GURPS: Transhuman Space and Eclipse Phase.

My friend who's trying to run GURPS: Transhuman Space has run headlong into that. It drives her out of her tree.

Quote from: Nexus;824017My friend who's trying to run GURPS: Transhuman Space has run headlong into that. It drives her out of her tree.

How so? I've seen some far out quasi-religious stuff from transhumanists but not in connection to any of the RPGs.

I seen people who cut open the tips of their fingers to shove magnets into them and stitch back their fingers.  I am not fucking lying about that and I wish I was.  That is some mess up people in real life.  How is that for transhumanism wankers?

Quote from: Simlasa;824013There was a group of Vampire fans who pretty much took over a coffeehose I used to go to. They annoyed the crap out of everyone but I associated their disfunction more with the fact that the bulk of them were 'thespians' in the Theater dept. at the university across the street.

I remember being at NorWesCon in Everett when I was going to college in Seattle (around about 1994). The Camarilla was there LARPing and the participants decided that you could gain points by annoying the mundanes (mundanes being defined as anyone not involved in the LARP). I'm trying to get to the video room where they were playing the current season of Red Dwarf being broadcast from the UK and the hallways were packed. This guy steps in front of me and crosses his arms while saying, "I'm obfuscating!" with a dopey grin on his face. I said excuse me and tried to walk around him, he stepped in my way again. I tried walking around him a third time and he stepped in my way again. Now I don't know what he expected me to do, but I put him in a bear hug, lifted him off his feet, and moved him over to the other side of the hallway. Then I went to the video room.

Saw the guy a couple more times that weekend, but he always shied away from me after that.

Quote from: Nexus;824017My friend who's trying to run GURPS: Transhuman Space has run headlong into that. It drives her out of her tree.

Tell her that when she advertises the game, call it cyberpunk instead of transhumanist so she will get a different type of Player.

Quote from: Snowman0147;824021I seen people who cut open the tips of their fingers to shove magnets into them and stitch back their fingers.  I am not fucking lying about that and I wish I was.  That is some mess up people in real life.  How is that for transhumanism wankers?

Sure... but my question was about whether those are fans of the RPGs or non-gamer transhumanist fans.
I've seen some pretty wacky vampire-wannabes who aren't gamers... swapping blood and getting fang implants. Survivalist nutters with hard-ons for the apocalypse... stockpiling weapons and paranoia. None are gamers and didn't have much influence on my game interests.

I don't know if we're a little behind cultural movements in Canada - because it seems like this happened a lot earlier to other people, but around the end of Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 and the beginning of Pathfinder, a splat-book-heavy power-gamey "I'm better than you because my character is superiour, and I express my superiority over you (even while I feel like a failure in real life)" culture took over a few of my gaming circles, and soured me on Dungeons & Dragons for years.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;8239911) During the Clinton Administration the White Wolf WoD games crushed all other role-playing around my Illinois college town. I very quickly grew very sick of the whole damn thing. It didn't help that the local LARP was very serious, very hardcore, almost "Cultish". The local WW fans all chain-smoked too, (It was part of this whole insufferable "We're the cool nerds" attitude) which made playing with them unpleasant and later, as my health declined, impossible.

Which Illinois college town was this?  It sounds awful familiar.

99% no, as I don't care what the fanbase says or does. However that 1%... I too have run into Vampire players who turn me off of the game. Although half of that is just the game itself, I'm really not that hot on playing a vampire and such.

What turns me off even more is going to a convention and seeing teenagers who have been into RPGs for two or three years and they think they are God's-gift to gaming. A whole lotta WoW players were like that too.

On second thought... there were those "2nd American Revolution" guys who were so right-wing they truly believed a second Civil War is what America needs. Yuck, I hope I never encounter their kind again.

So maybe that's 95% no, or 90%.

Quote from: Panjumanju;824034I don't know if we're a little behind cultural movements in Canada - because it seems like this happened a lot earlier to other people, but around the end of Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 and the beginning of Pathfinder, a splat-book-heavy power-gamey "I'm better than you because my character is superiour, and I express my superiority over you (even while I feel like a failure in real life)" culture took over a few of my gaming circles, and soured me on Dungeons & Dragons for years.

//Panjumanju

While it's possible that this occurred later in the great white north than it did down here below the 48th parallel, those sorts of players have been around since at least the 1970s. Consider yourself lucky you didn't experience them sooner.

Quote from: Bren;824045While it's possible that this occurred later in the great white north than it did down here below the 48th parallel, those sorts of players have been around since at least the 1970s. Consider yourself lucky you didn't experience them sooner.

Then it was probably just the tides of regional taste changing. I try to stay mindful of larger cultural shifts - maybe this wasn't the reaches of a wave towards that kind of play.

I'm glad I didn't experience it much, and it seems to have calmed down, now.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;824047Then it was probably just the tides of regional taste changing. I try to stay mindful of larger cultural shifts - maybe this wasn't the reaches of a wave towards that kind of play.

I'm glad I didn't experience it much, and it seems to have calmed down, now.

//Panjumanju

That would be nice. Nobody but you and the peeps you game with cares what level your character in somebody else's campaign is.

Munchkins who want to harangue strangers with a god awfully boring listing of their character's levels and magic items are one reason that I almost always  avoid my character, your character sharing discussions. On the plus side, for a lot of people I think that is a phase they may one day grow out of.

Not as such, no. I can't recall ever being in a position of thinking "I would be interested in this game... but its fans are a bunch of wankers who I don't want to have to deal with, so I'll pass on it."

However, there are certain groups of people within the broader RPG community who I find insufferable and whose tastes in gaming are distinctly different from mine, so, when I see that this bunch of wankers are into a certain game, then I can be pretty sure that it's a game which I wouldn't have been interested in in the first place.

I have a hard time understanding this position really. I mean, you don't have to play with any of these people. I like my gaming groups. And if I like a game, that's the people I'll be playing it with. And the game will be what we want it to be, I feel no pressure to play "correctly", whatever that means. I've gamed long enough to know what my preference are, I've accumulated like-minded friends (sure there's some compromises, but that's always true), and I evaluate a game in terms of its system and its setting. I cannot see a "fanbase" of any kind affecting these things.

Quote from: Simlasa;824018How so? I've seen some far out quasi-religious stuff from transhumanists but not in connection to any of the RPGs.

Going from what she's said the fans she's interacted with have held the whole Transhumanist thing to close to the same level of nearly religious reverence: seeing science as a magic wand that is going to fix everything so it should never be moderated, handled with consideration or any thought given to possible consequences (that makes you Luddite/Frightened Caveman).

Seemingly can't can't stand even the notion that some of the "transhumanist" ideas (Human level AI, the "Singularity", etc etc) might not be possible and act like you're casting aspersions on their religion if you mention it, can't conceive of why anyone might find some of the Transhumanist ideas, at least as presented in rpgs creepy and disturbing (like people killing themselves so they can "upload" a copy of themselves into a computer) and just generally seeming both detached from reality and extremely arrogant.

She's gone on at length.... :D

It practically killed her interest in the game, but she's keeping on as her players are enjoying the campaign at the moment.

Quote from: Thornhammer;824035Which Illinois college town was this?  It sounds awful familiar.

It happened outside of Illinois college towns, as well. It permeated the entire Chicagoland area. It still has a small but determined presence, but pathfinder seems to have supplanted it.

Warhammer:
I used to be part of a gaming group by Itaewon (South Korea) with a couple of ARMY guys. I will never play Warhammer or any game associated with Warhammer because of these fuckers.
One. I haven't taken the time to memorize every little detail of this setting. I don't know every single peculiarity of all these Space Marine chapters and I'm not up on all the political and historical events. You're going to have to explain things to me. Or better yet don't, because I don't care any more.
Two. Didn't this game start out as British satire in the eighties? You guys need to stop taking this shit so seriously.
Three. I don't have the money or the time to buy and paint these goddamned little men. Quit badgering me.

White Wolf Games:
I was in a Werewolf LARP during college, and in a Vampire game briefly.
One. You sold me on a game of personal horror and dramatic story telling, and all I got was furry super-heroes with katanas and desert-eagles.
Two. You sold me on a game of personal horror and dramatic story telling, and all I got was three hours of Vampire-Monopoly.
Three. You all look ridiculous playing Rock-Paper-Scissors in those costumes.
Four. Thanks for dumping all this back story on me the last hour. Now what was it that I'm actually supposed to do in this game?

Pathfinder:
One. I've played 3.5 before, it's garbage.
Two. Call me a 4ron all you like when we're on the internet, but leave me alone when I'm in the gaming store. I didn't come into this FLGS to start an edition war; I came in here to buy the new book, and hang up a flier for an upcoming game that needs players. Do not fucking come up to me and start blathering on about how "4E is a dumbed-down board-game and a ripoff of Warcraft for babies" because I didn't come to this store to talk to you, and do not touch my fucking fliers.
Motherfucking Pathfinder cunts tearing down my goddamn fliers despite the store owner telling me it's cool to put these up.

Quote from: Nexus;824096Seemingly can't can't stand even the notion that some of the "transhumanist" ideas (Human level AI, the "Singularity", etc etc) might not be possible and act like you're casting aspersions on their religion if you mention it, can't conceive of why anyone might find some of the Transhumanist ideas, at least as presented in rpgs creepy and disturbing (like people killing themselves so they can "upload" a copy of themselves into a computer) and just generally seeming both detached from reality and extremely arrogant.

I've know some individuals offline who were like this.

The one question which really got on their nerves:  Is P = NP ?  :pundit:

:banghead:

Yes they have, and they still do. Won't touch their game if they beg me to. And a few of them almost have.

I played that game for literally decades, but then the edition wars started, and I was playing the wrong edition. Any hint that I might want to write for a fanzine instantly shut down any discussions. Then the internet came along, and the dickishness of said "fans" got cranked up waaay past 11. Because you see, I was playing the wrong edition, and change is bad! Most of all, people who want change shouldn't be allowed to soil their precious game. Because it's perfect exactly the way it is, or some damn thing.

Fuck 'em, I left. I've been happier for it. Not to mention a lot more successful.

Years later, I got my own setting published, and it got some good reviews. There have been a few detractors, and it just happens that all of them are from the fan community of that game I quit playing years ago.

I'm not sure what to say to that. Mission accomplished?

Whatever. I'm looking forward to writing more awesome shit they won't like.

Quote from: Cave Bear;824130White Wolf Games:
I was in a Werewolf LARP during college, and in a Vampire game briefly.
One. You sold me on a game of personal horror and dramatic story telling, and all I got was furry super-heroes with katanas and desert-eagles.
Two. You sold me on a game of personal horror and dramatic story telling, and all I got was three hours of Vampire-Monopoly.
Three. You all look ridiculous playing Rock-Paper-Scissors in those costumes.
Four. Thanks for dumping all this back story on me the last hour. Now what was it that I'm actually supposed to do in this game?

I was a V:tM LARPer back in the 1990s and I literally laughed out loud. That is exactly how our LARPs turned out.

Quote from: TristramEvans;824092I have a hard time understanding this position really. I mean, you don't have to play with any of these people.

I dont know about others. But for me personally it has invariably occurred when the fanbase all but, or in a few cases, does, take over the product.

I've seen this way too often. Some little majordomo who overlays his or her "vision" of how the thing should be. How it REALLY TRULY IS! and starts to creep into product thereafter. Or in worse case scenarios this git gains control of it or at least the fanbase.

Essentially the well has been poisoned.

That hasnt stopped me from still playing most of those games. But I just refuse to deal with the fanbase and anything they produce or spout off anymore.

Quote from: Omega;824154I dont know about others. But for me personally it has invariably occurred when the fanbase all but, or in a few cases, does, take over the product.

I've seen this way too often. Some little majordomo who overlays his or her "vision" of how the thing should be. How it REALLY TRULY IS! and starts to creep into product thereafter. Or in worse case scenarios this git gains control of it or at least the fanbase.

Essentially the well has been poisoned.

That hasnt stopped me from still playing most of those games. But I just refuse to deal with the fanbase and anything they produce or spout off anymore.

But that's an issue with later changes to the product itself, not the fanbase directly. Let's say the entire fanbase apart from you are assholes, and every future supplement will be terrible due to their influence. How does that stop you enjoying the original game as written?

Quote from: Spinachcat;824005Hell yeah. So much of the experience of game is the local players, and if you can't mesh with the fans of a game, its hard to get into the system and setting.

And vice versa. I've played a few lame games because the fans were fun people to game with and their enthusiasm for this so-so game plus their demeanor as people worth hanging out with made it much more fun than RAW.

Is this a difference in British and American RPG cultures, something to do with pickup games at shops perhaps? Because absolutely none of my experience of a game is the local players or the local scene. Roleplaying is something you do with your friends. The whole notion of 'I want to play this game, therefore I will seek out strangers who already play it' is totally anathema to me.

Can't say this has happened to me at all. No matter what the game happens to be I prefer to base my decision to play on the other people involved not the game.

I would rather play a game I'm less excited about with great people than one I can't wait to play with douchebags. It simply isn't worth it.

So long as the folks I'm rolling dice with are decent folk, I don't care about the fan base at large.

Quote from: soviet;824158Is this a difference in British and American RPG cultures, something to do with pickup games at shops perhaps? Because absolutely none of my experience of a game is the local players or the local scene. Roleplaying is something you do with your friends. The whole notion of 'I want to play this game, therefore I will seek out strangers who already play it' is totally anathema to me.

Some of us haven't spent our entire lives living in one place.  All my old gaming friends are half a dozen time zones away (and scattered all over the US), so I either game with strangers or not at all.

Quote from: soviet;824155But that's an issue with later changes to the product itself, not the fanbase directly. Let's say the entire fanbase apart from you are assholes, and every future supplement will be terrible due to their influence. How does that stop you enjoying the original game as written?

As said. It usually doesnt.

Worse case scenario I ran into was my oft mentioned working with BDP on Dragon Storm. After things went to hell I just lost the urge to GM or play anymore. And because of that faction of fans taking over and actually dictating how things went to the company. I couldnt play in official games anymore. Alot of money wasted in investment and the truely frustrating fact that the actions of these people were driving away players. So I'd pull out the game with intent to GM and all I felt was "ugh." Dealing with the fallout just killed my urge.

I still tinker with it though and really should publish the unpublished solo rules and dungeon cards.

Quote from: Cave Bear;824130Warhammer:
Three. I don't have the money or the time to buy and paint these goddamned little men. Quit badgering me.

That obviously has nothing to do with the fanbase, you simply don't want to be involved in the hobby as a whole.

In general, no. I do have and enjoy some more traditional fare(GURPS and Fantasy Craft, for example), but a lot of the games I like and play fit in the dreaded "story games" sub-category. And while I love quite a few of them, and find them a lot of fun, . . . let's just say that some of the most vocal proponents for the games(including many of the designers themselves) can be downright toxic. Sure, there are toxic people all over the gaming scene, but these games seem to attract them in disproportionately high numbers. I wish they didn't, but there's nothing I can do about it.

I still think the "rpg/storygame" split on this forum is utter bullshit -- if Candyland and Settlers of Catan can both be board games, then the RPG label can be broad enough for both D&D and Dogs in the Vineyard -- but after learning more about The Forge and its history and seeing some of the discussion of some of my favorite games over at TBP . . . yeah, I can have some sympathy. I still think it's bullshit, but it's somewhat understandable bullshit.

i dont know about being put of a game itself but i am starting to get really put of off the pathfinder iconics

at least half of the fans are social justice warriors who want iconics to be about nothing but inclusitivity

some might say its the lead devs fault as he freely admits they try and fill quotas with the iconics but im fairly sure they hate having to do that.

and they really fucked up the transexual iconic the character itself was not bad but they refused to accept they fucked up the writing it was confusing and can easily be read as an attack on the characters parents. the designer had to several times explain what was going on but refused to admit they fucked it up. of course she was one of those people who get really upset when you refer to them as the wrong gender the way i see it if your transsexual you should learn to deal with your oversensitivity issues before you worry about your gender.

and the worst part is they want to retcon people as homosexuals and bisexuals which is just pathetic hell i love bisexual characters i dont think i have ever made a character who was not bisexual but you dont just go retconing for the sake of inclusivity.

Quote from: soviet;824158Is this a difference in British and American RPG cultures, something to do with pickup games at shops perhaps? Because absolutely none of my experience of a game is the local players or the local scene. Roleplaying is something you do with your friends. The whole notion of 'I want to play this game, therefore I will seek out strangers who already play it' is totally anathema to me.

As an American, I almost exclusively have played with my personal playgroup, and never at a shop or with strangers. So... idk. I think I've been isolated from the crazy fans other than on the internet, because most of the people I play with are people I introduced to the hobby.

I imagine though that if some people saw what I did with some of the fan favorite games that I do like they would scream at me. Like cutting the XP stuff from MHRP, which I imagine would have people at TBP saying I don't understand the game.

Indirectly.  3.x turned me off of 3.x.

Not because of them, but because once I saw how deep the charop hole went, I couldn't unsee it.

Online Exalted fans have put me off Exalted for good. Overzealous fans in general are a real pain and have on occasion colored my perception of a game in a negative way.

Quote from: nitril;824208Online Exalted fans have put me off Exalted for good. Overzealous fans in general are a real pain and have on occasion colored my perception of a game in a negative way.

Were you turned off from Exalted recently?

Empire of the Petal Throne. If you've ever had the misfortune of playing EPT at a convention you know exactly what I mean.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;824167I still think the "rpg/storygame" split on this forum is utter bullshit -- if Candyland and Settlers of Catan can both be board games, then the RPG label can be broad enough for both D&D and Dogs in the Vineyard -- but after learning more about The Forge and its history and seeing some of the discussion of some of my favorite games over at TBP . . . yeah, I can have some sympathy. I still think it's bullshit, but it's somewhat understandable bullshit.

Actually some boardgamers dont consider Candyland a real game... aheh...

The loonybin antics of the 4e fans really turned me off that system. Hell even the regular fans have a tendency to come across as elitist balance worshipping pricks sometimes.

Seeing some of the cultist level spiel from GW fans hasnt exactly engendered any great urge to buy or play anything they make anymore. But then the company itself poisons everything they touch so it was downhill anyhow.

Quote from: Nexus;823976I have to admit this has happened to me a few times. I was interested in the game but nature of its fans and community were just too irritating to deal with so I avoided getting into it. I won't say which games; it might insult some of fans of them that post here. And it was rarely every single person that liked but what seemed to be majority of them.

Didn't someone Do this same basic question around 6 to 7 months ago on here?


- Ed C.

Quote from: Kellri;824215Empire of the Petal Throne. If you've ever had the misfortune of playing EPT at a convention you know exactly what I mean.

I've only heard good things about playing in the author's games. What was the problem?

I was only turned off if it was a local fan base. Internet bullshit doesn't affect me that way. However it does affect others, so that can be damaging to play styles or play style expectations locally.

I could see TBP (or other boards) turning people off to less popular games that became the flavor of the month. Dissuading them from ever even trying.

Quote from: TristramEvans;824224I've only heard good things about playing in the author's games. What was the problem?

No, I'm not talking about playing in MAR Barker's home game. I mean playing at cons with EPT super-fans.

Quote from: Kellri;824232No, I'm not talking about playing in MAR Barker's home game. I mean playing at cons with EPT super-fans.

Ah, well I could see a devotion to the minutia of the published supplements getting tedious. That's one of the reasons I stopped GMing Star Wars in the 90s ("in the extended universe it says...). If I wasnt a super comics geek who knows Marvel 616 history from silver age up to circa '93 like the back of my hand, I could have seen the same thing overtaking my FASERIP games.


Ran a Dark Heresy campaign last year and started with the caveat up front: "everything outside of the original Rogue Trader is apocryphal". Only way I could deal with a setting several of my players know way better than I.

For me:

• Vampire: pretty much the reasons expressed by people here who've heard similar stories and RP expectations.

• TSR-era D&D: The attitude shown from many gamers at my local FLGS, book stores where WotC and TSR books are sold, and many sites is often completely ridiculous. No common ground, no agreement on style or player options, completely different views on how to DM. However at least I'm willing to let bygones be bygones in person, not start throwing the usual and regurgitated insults that hold water like cheese cloth. The Internet is worse, by far, but personal confrontations add new perspective. And there's no "delete post" in face to face situations.

Quote from: Koltar;824222Didn't someone Do this same basic question around 6 to 7 months ago on here?


- Ed C.

If they did I don't remember.

I quit playing Warhammer 40k because the vast majority of players in my area were terrible players who tried to make house rules that always favored their army while forgetting basic rules.

I didn't play Vampire in the 90's because of the local players that I knew who did play.

Quote from: soviet;823987This makes no sense to me. I already have a gaming group. If I want to try a new game, I'll just play it with them. The state of the game's fanbase out in the wild makes no difference to me at all.

It makes no sense to me either.

Let me get this straight, because the premise just strikes me as so frigging ridiculous as to be nearly incomprehensible: some of you don't want anything to do with a published game because you've run into people on the Internet who (a) like that game and (b) are dicks?

Seriously?

Follow that insane premise to its logical conclusion, and you ought to not want to have anything to do with roleplaying games, because it's demonstrably the case that a lot of their players are disgusting whackdoodles.

Gods, grow a pair, some of ya.  People on the Internet being dicks.  (shakes his head)  Stop the freaking presses.

I categorically don't give a shit about the fanbase of a game. They make no difference to my enjoyment of, or intention to play any game whatsoever.

A positive, constructive and useful one can be helpful and ease the transition into a new game, a negative and snarky one I just ignore.

Quote from: Ravenswing;824255Let me get this straight, because the premise just strikes me as so frigging ridiculous as to be nearly incomprehensible: some of you don't want anything to do with a published game because you've run into people on the Internet who (a) like that game and (b) are dicks?

Online, in person, whatever. And yes, its quite serious. If I'm trying to learn about a game, gather some players and generally interact with people about them and the people I meet make it a horrible unpleasant experience, yeah it colors me opinion of the game and and also makes me wonder if I want to be associated with that fan base. Its just a game and its usually not worth hassle. Its not so much popularity. I player unpopular games with exciting and energetic if tiny communities. But dealing with and being associated with groups of that feel toxic can put off the game. Sorry that's not "manly" enough for some.

*

My first year in university I had the fabulous luck of having a really stunning girlfriend. I played D&D with her and her friends, started bringing her to my local gaming club and she would often spend time at my place reading my gaming books. She was an anthropology major and was really intrigued by Tekumel. There was no way I could have done that game justice so we never played ourselves, but she read all the books. Anyways, we went to this convention at OSU and at sign-up I got into a couple of miniature wargames and she signed up for a 6-hour Tekumel game and a shorter Toon game. The guy running the Tekumel game was a late-middle-aged bespectacled guy in a white shirt, tie and black slacks. He had this elaborate table setup with placards, a stack of reference materials, dice, and an illuminated 5-page character sheet at each place-setting. It looked kind of like an aging Mormon or John Bircher getting ready to brief the Presidential cabinet on Mesoamerican death cults. As it turned out, my girlfriend was the only player to sign up. For the first three hours he walked her through creating an obsessively-detailed 1st-level character for Swords & Glory - right down to the proper Tsolyani name, clan, familial titles, etc. The fifth hour, my minis game finished, I walked over to sit in with her. He spent nearly the entire hour reading this complex adventure background which boiled down to ..."You'd like to explore the Jakallan underworld but right now your clan-obligations dictate you go down to the docks and ensure that shipment of fish has arrived". The last plodding hour involved hiring some slaves to carry her palanquin through the streets to the docks and signing release forms for the goods. As the session ended she was completely brain-dead from the experience and was desperate to go out to the car and smoke a joint before the Toon game. As I'm shaking hands with the Tekumel-guy, he looks at my girlfriend and says to me...'I've been admiring these all afternoon. What do you call them? Oh yes, breasts.' Needless to say, she never asked to play Tekumel again. For the next couple of years I kept running into the same guy at other local cons - always with the same setup and always with only one, soon-to-be-a-Tekumel-hater, player. AFAIK, he never played anything but Tekumel. At another later con, I was talking with Tom Moldvay and pointed the guy out to him with a 'who is THAT motherfucker' kind of line. Tom smiled and just said 'Yeah, you should probably think about playing another game'.

Quote from: nitril;824208Online Exalted fans have put me off Exalted for good. Overzealous fans in general are a real pain and have on occasion colored my perception of a game in a negative way.

If the system itself hadn't done the job first, . . . nah, if it had a good system, I'd have liked it. I like what I like, even if other people who like the same thing are insufferable tools.

Quote from: Kellri;824263Tekumel con game horror story

Holy shit, these people do actually exist. :( I feel sorry for her.

Quote from: Ravenswing;824255It makes no sense to me either.

Let me get this straight, because the premise just strikes me as so frigging ridiculous as to be nearly incomprehensible: some of you don't want anything to do with a published game because you've run into people on the Internet who (a) like that game and (b) are dicks?

Seriously?

Follow that insane premise to its logical conclusion, and you ought to not want to have anything to do with roleplaying games, because it's demonstrably the case that a lot of their players are disgusting whackdoodles.

Gods, grow a pair, some of ya.  People on the Internet being dicks.  (shakes his head)  Stop the freaking presses.

i game on the internet i dont have the privilige of living in the city i am forced to live in the middle of fucking nowhere where nobody around me enjoys roleplaying so people on the internet very much affect me

fuck i hate living where i live

Quote from: The Butcher;824271Holy shit, these people do actually exist. :( I feel sorry for her.

I almost did, but then she didn't so much as question things when character generation went past the 1-hour mark. Then my sympathy waned. He was a horrible GM, yeah, but he didn't forcibly restrain her and make her sit through the whole 6 hour crapfest.

Quote from: Kellri;824263My first year in university I had the fabulous luck of having a really stunning girlfriend. I played D&D with her and her friends, started bringing her to my local gaming club and she would often spend time at my place reading my gaming books. She was an anthropology major and was really intrigued by Tekumel. There was no way I could have done that game justice so we never played ourselves, but she read all the books. Anyways, we went to this convention at OSU and at sign-up I got into a couple of miniature wargames and she signed up for a 6-hour Tekumel game and a shorter Toon game. The guy running the Tekumel game was a late-middle-aged bespectacled guy in a white shirt, tie and black slacks. He had this elaborate table setup with placards, a stack of reference materials, dice, and an illuminated 5-page character sheet at each place-setting. It looked kind of like an aging Mormon or John Bircher getting ready to brief the Presidential cabinet on Mesoamerican death cults. As it turned out, my girlfriend was the only player to sign up. For the first three hours he walked her through creating an obsessively-detailed 1st-level character for Swords & Glory - right down to the proper Tsolyani name, clan, familial titles, etc. The fifth hour, my minis game finished, I walked over to sit in with her. He spent nearly the entire hour reading this complex adventure background which boiled down to ..."You'd like to explore the Jakallan underworld but right now your clan-obligations dictate you go down to the docks and ensure that shipment of fish has arrived". The last plodding hour involved hiring some slaves to carry her palanquin through the streets to the docks and signing release forms for the goods. As the session ended she was completely brain-dead from the experience and was desperate to go out to the car and smoke a joint before the Toon game. As I'm shaking hands with the Tekumel-guy, he looks at my girlfriend and says to me...'I've been admiring these all afternoon. What do you call them? Oh yes, breasts.' Needless to say, she never asked to play Tekumel again. For the next couple of years I kept running into the same guy at other local cons - always with the same setup and always with only one, soon-to-be-a-Tekumel-hater, player. AFAIK, he never played anything but Tekumel. At another later con, I was talking with Tom Moldvay and pointed the guy out to him with a 'who is THAT motherfucker' kind of line. Tom smiled and just said 'Yeah, you should probably think about playing another game'.

Jebus. It sounds like he was trying to drive people away from the game.

Quote from: tuypo1;824275i game on the internet i dont have the privilige of living in the city i am forced to live in the middle of fucking nowhere where nobody around me enjoys roleplaying so people on the internet very much affect me

fuck i hate living where i live

There's also the assumption that everyone is only talking about internet assholes.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;824264If the system itself hadn't done the job first, . . . nah, if it had a good system, I'd have liked it. I like what I like, even if other people who like the same thing are insufferable tools.

honestly from what little i have looked at it the system does not look to bad

the problem is the whole stunt thing completely fucking breaks it they are very clear to be brief which i can apreciate but the community seems to constantly fucking encourage taking control of your environment

i consider myself a pretty lenient and layed back dm for the most part but the 1 immutable rule at my games is not describe the actions of npcs thats the dms job dont say you swing the sword and then do something when he trys to block its my job to say he tries to block and definitely dont try and control an npcs emotions. problem is pretty much all the stunt examples i have seen break this simple rule (not that the stunt system at its core is any good its a foolish idea from the start)

plus you are actively encouraged to break the timings set up by the combat system which can never end well.

Quote from: Nexus;824212Were you turned off from Exalted recently?

Started years ago with the 2nd edition debacle, but more recently with the kiss ass attitude and bending backwards and all that crap over at TBP.

Quote from: Ravenswing;824255It makes no sense to me either.

Let me get this straight, because the premise just strikes me as so frigging ridiculous as to be nearly incomprehensible: some of you don't want anything to do with a published game because you've run into people on the Internet who (a) like that game and (b) are dicks?

Seriously?

Follow that insane premise to its logical conclusion, and you ought to not want to have anything to do with roleplaying games, because it's demonstrably the case that a lot of their players are disgusting whackdoodles.

Gods, grow a pair, some of ya.  People on the Internet being dicks.  (shakes his head)  Stop the freaking presses.

Actually, they were also dicks in real life, at the gaming table and elsewhere. I could understand someone not wanting to game at my table if they preferred a different edition. But these guys would stop somebody else's game, while we were playing, to rant at me if they found out I preferred the "wrong" edition. Because edition warriors are never off duty, I guess.

Most importantly, they were dicks when they should have been talking business. Seriously, just about everyone else I've talked to in the industry since I left my old "fan" community has been polite and professional at a minimum; friendly and encouraging in most cases. The difference is like night and day.

And yes, their behavior on the internet is even worse, BTW. Not my problem any more.

Quote from: nitril;824286Started years ago with the 2nd edition debacle, but more recently with the kiss ass attitude and bending backwards and all that crap over at TBP.

I can completely relate.

I'll share my Hero story.

I was gaming at a LGS called Travellers in Time.  There was a fair bit of dysfunctional gaming going on there, but I was young, had nothing better to do, and the people there weren't so bad.  My best friend of the time (the guy who got me into RPGs) met these guys who were into the Hero System (Champions).  They apparently really sold him on Champions and he immediately hunted down several books available at the time.  Anyway, they were organizing a game at the shop and invited us to play.

To start with, they said that Hero could handle any character concept a player could throw at it.  They asked what character I'd like to play.  It took about six attempts before they finally said one of my character concepts was doable.  I don't remember all of them I asked about.  I do remember one was a character like Rogue, but without the power absorbing ability (Super Strength, Invulnerability, and Flight).  Another was a simple energy blaster character who could fly.  In retrospect now that I know something about the Hero system, they were all very basic and easy characters to make.  They turned all those down saying they weren't suitable for the system.  The one they did approve was a Cat-Man with a blaster pistol and jet pack.  

So then they made my character for me.  It took about three hours.  They never explained any of it to me.  

I don't remember what my best friend got for a character after the ordeal.  He seemed happy about it.

Then we started playing.  Everything started in a superhero bar where "heroes and villains gathered to have drinks."  We were immediately introduced to a GMPC named Lone Star who was basically Michael Knight with a version of K.I.T.T. painted white.  Why his car was in the bar didn't seem to be an important question to anyone but me.

Anyway, the scene in the bar consisted of all the NPCs calling us idiots.  This went on for a while until I asked when we were going to do something superheroic instead of hanging out in the bar (because we couldn't leave, you see).  The two GMs just looked at me blankly.  I sighed and decided I'd pick a fight with one of the villains in the bar who had been insulting my character the most.

The GM's perked up, because this was seemingly what they had been waiting for.  All the NPCs started hooting and hollering and saying I had issued a Challenge (yep captial C).  This required we be teleported to an arena along with the team of the villain I had talked back to.  Now we were going to have a fight.

I asked where my blaster and jet pack were and the GMs told me they were 10 yards behind me (or something like that).  My friend also had an equipment focused character and his gear was similarly 10 yards behind him.  When combat started we immediately ran backwards to get and equip our basic gear.  The GMs then ridiculed us for running away from their bad guys.  This was intensely humorous to them and they made comments about it all through the fight.

I remember combat lasting an eternity before I finally got to do something.  I said I took off and shot at one of the bad guys.  In response, I got told that I could only do one or the other, so I chose to take off.  The GM's told me to roll a d20 to make my take off check.  I succeeded.  Yes, it was a d20 roll, in Hero.

Then another eternity went by before my second action.  I said I shot my blaster at a villain, and was asked to roll another d20.  I rolled and missed.  Once again, d20 roll, in Hero.

Then one of the villains decided to attack me.  The GM rolled some stuff behind the screen, then told me I had taken damage and was vaporized.  He told me I could make up a new character after the game.

I sat there for a while while my best friend played.  For some reason he was having fun, although I'm pretty sure his character got killed in one attack too.  I had to wait for him, because he was my ride home.

Afterwards, I wanted to go home, but my best friend wanted to hang with these two guys for a while longer and refused to take the time to drop me off.  So, I ended up tagging along having no other choice.  We ended up at Whataburger where the two GMs spent until 4AM telling us about their GMPCs.  For some reason, my friend thought these guys were great.

After this experience, I never wanted to see Hero or Champions again.  I got the impression it could only create very limited characters, and was a save or die system.  Not only that, but it came across as a tedious mess of a system.

It wasn't until the 00s when I bought Hero 5 on a whim (I was buying everything else, so why not?) that I finally saw the system and realized what absolute putzes the two GMs were.  Had I been introduced properly to the Hero system in the late 80s, then I would have loved it.  But since these two idiots had been my introduction to it, I actively avoided it until too late in my RPGing life to properly enjoy it.

Quote from: Gabriel2;824295Hero horror story snipped.

As a long term Hero System fan I'd like to apologize for that. I've heard similar stories from different games but unfortunately Hero seems to have more than its fair share. And it seems to have haunted the game to this day.

Quote from: Gabriel2;824295Had I been introduced properly to the Hero system in the late 80s, then I would have loved it.  But since these two idiots had been my introduction to it, I actively avoided it until too late in my RPGing life to properly enjoy it.

My one experience with Hero (4e) was actually good, but like you've mentioned, timing is a big deal. I didn't really look into it until I was too old to dedicate the necessary time to learn and master the system. Pity that.

I honestly can't say they have, but then again, I'm picky about who I game with in the first place.

I can say, however, that people being dickish about some games has prompted me to buy those games. Case in point: D&D 5E starter set, though in that case I was slightly interested already.  I'm less interested in The Strange, but the recent BS around it has me considering it very seriously.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;824302I honestly can't say they have, but then again, I'm picky about who I game with in the first place.

I can say, however, that people being dickish about some games has prompted me to buy those games. Case in point: D&D 5E starter set, though in that case I was slightly interested already.  I'm less interested in The Strange, but the recent BS around it has me considering it very seriously.

I can't say I've never gotten a game out of spite.

I guess it's become a sort of voting with my wallet or a way of showing support.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;824311I guess it's become a sort of voting with my wallet or a way of showing support.

Yeah and I've gotten some good games out of the deal too like Cthullutech

Quote from: Cave Bear;824130Call me a 4ron all you like when we're on the internet, but leave me alone when I'm in the gaming store. I didn't come into this FLGS to start an edition war; I came in here to buy the new book, and hang up a flier for an upcoming game that needs players. Do not fucking come up to me and start blathering on about how "4E is a dumbed-down board-game and a ripoff of Warcraft for babies" because I didn't come to this store to talk to you, and do not touch my fucking fliers.
Motherfucking Pathfinder cunts tearing down my goddamn fliers despite the store owner telling me it's cool to put these up.

YES. Mouth-breathing louts who think that comic and games shops are some kind of public debate halls are the scum of the Earth. Do other kinds of specialty shops have this problem? It's never happened to me in a record shop or auto-parts store.

Shop Owners: Do not allow these scumfucks to harass your patrons! Why do so many tolerate them? Free entertainment?

Quote from: Ravenswing;824255It makes no sense to me either.

Let me get this straight, because the premise just strikes me as so frigging ridiculous as to be nearly incomprehensible: some of you don't want anything to do with a published game because you've run into people on the Internet who (a) like that game and (b) are dicks?

Seriously?

For some, first impressions can have an immense impact on how you view the game afterwards. Replace "fanbase" with "DM" and tell me this does not happen on a regular basis? One bad DM can turn you off a game mechanic or a whole game. Weve had posts here and elsewhere proving that over and over. You yourself have posted here about how you flat out refuse to play with certain mechanics in RPGs because of bad experiences.

Follow that insane premise to its logical conclusion, and you ought to not want to have anything to do with roleplaying games, because it's demonstrably the case that a lot of DMs are disgusting whackdoodles.

Gods, grow a pair, Ravenswing. DMs being dicks. (shakes his head) Stop the freaking presses.

Quote from: Nexus;824277Jebus. It sounds like he was trying to drive people away from the game.

I have suspected it a few times. In board games I've seen it in actual use. someone posing as a "true fan" but in reality they are being as obnoxious as possible to try and drive people away or at least generate a negative impression.

This is why when I see fans acting like dicks that I start to scrutinize exactly what they are saying and doing. In the last 10 or so years since I actually started noticing it. It seems to happen fairly regularly unfortunately.

Also I look to see if it is an isolated group causing the problems, rather than what sometimes feels like the whole fanbase. The net tends to magnify what looks like alot of people, but is really a small cluster. We've actually had game design seminars ar conventions to discuss this and make designers aware that these nuts are very often NOT representative of your playerbase.

Lastly I look to see if its a possible rival company plant. White Wolf used to love to pull that stunt.

Quote from: Omega;824350Lastly I look to see if its a possible rival company plant. White Wolf used to love to pull that stunt.

You're kidding...?

Quote from: Omega;824350Lastly I look to see if its a possible rival company plant. White Wolf used to love to pull that stunt.

Come off it, that sounds ludicrous. I assume given your apparent certainty that you have some cast-iron proof of this?

Quote from: Omega;824350Lastly I look to see if its a possible rival company plant. White Wolf used to love to pull that stunt.

i dont know about white wolf but i bet ea would do something like this

but then again i dont know much about white wolf

but anyway i know its a horrible thing to do but im going to go put ideas into the head of my conspiracy theorist friend

Quote from: nitril;824286Started years ago with the 2nd edition debacle, but more recently with the kiss ass attitude and bending backwards and all that crap over at TBP.

I can completely relate. The Exalted fanbase has always had more than its share of pompous self important assholes but they really seem to driving the bus at this point.

Quote from: Nexus;824351You're kidding...?

I wish.Sporatic to be sure. But annoying no matter how you look at it. But that was around the same time White Wolf/Arthaus/Swords & Sorcery was rolling into dick mode so its not overly surprising.

And in recent 1-2 years I believe been watching a rather bemusing song-n-dance routine from Hagen. Unrelated to WW and/or fans putting you off the game. Just weird to say the least. Though I'm pretty darn sure its causing backers to cancel.

Theres alot of things that can for one reason or another cause a person to quit off a game. Its bad though when they get put off by fake fans.

Quote from: soviet;824352Come off it, that sounds ludicrous. I assume given your apparent certainty that you have some cast-iron proof of this?

The same way admin here root out the occasional sock puppet. Compare ISPs.

As noted above. Sporatic but annoying. And pretty tame compared to some of the things other companies pull and are pulling even now. If you think all these publishers are lily pure innocent then you are being way past naive.

Mind's Eye Theater:  Vampire TM.

At Shevacon in VA they took over the hotel hallways every night like roaches, even banging on random doors acting out "traits" from the game.  LARP was give a huge black eye from them.

Quote from: Omega;824376The same way admin here root out the occasional sock puppet. Compare ISPs.

As noted above. Sporatic but annoying. And pretty tame compared to some of the things other companies pull and are pulling even now. If you think all these publishers are lily pure innocent then you are being way past naive.

Please tell me more about the corporate espionage going on between RPG publishers. I can understand it too, what with the dozens of dollars at stake.

Quote from: soviet;824402Please tell me more about the corporate espionage going on between RPG publishers. I can understand it too, what with the dozens of dollars at stake.

I teehee'd.

100s of dozens eventualy adds up to a lot of money

Quote from: tuypo1;824406100s of dozens eventualy adds up to a lot of money

For Donald Trump to wipe his butt with

Quote from: TristramEvans;824408For Donald Trump to wipe his butt with

Well, yes but people have done far shittier things for less. If the only money that motivated criminals were sums people like Trump would care about there'd be much less crime in the world.

And considering some of pathetic petty spiteful shit I've seen people do online for nothing I don't find that hard to believe that some one would set up sock puppets to try and poison the well for a business rival.

Quote from: Nexus;824409Well, yes but people have done far shittier things for less. If the only money that motivated criminals were sums people like Trump would care about there'd be much less crime in the world.

Be that as it may, I think stories of corporate espionage tactics in the TTRPG world fall pretty clearly under the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" category

Quote from: TristramEvans;824410Be that as it may, I think stories of corporate espionage tactics in the TTRPG world fall pretty clearly under the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" category

Fair enough. I rate them as "plausible but so far unproven".

that sounds reasonable

Quote from: TristramEvans;824410Be that as it may, I think stories of corporate espionage tactics in the TTRPG world fall pretty clearly under the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" category

At a minimum some proof should be provided when making such a claim.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;824335YES. Mouth-breathing louts who think that comic and games shops are some kind of public debate halls are the scum of the Earth. Do other kinds of specialty shops have this problem? It's never happened to me in a record shop or auto-parts store.

I've seen it happen in several different venues, from "What are you doing getting that, don't you know the author is a gay basher?" to "That band's a lame sellout, you should listen to X instead" to "Only hippies still use those" to "Real hobbyists build/paint their own."  I've seen fist fights between Old and New Trek partisans, between CD and vinyl partisans, and between model railroad partisans on a point of verisimilitude which I didn't understand then and probably wouldn't now.

And that doesn't even touch the subject of sports.  No one's torched city centers, gunned down rivals or started a freaking shooting war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War) based on what edition of D&D the enemy preferred.

Our ability as a species to divide into bizarre tribal factions over pretty much any difference, real or perceived, is unparalleled.

Quote from: soviet;824402Please tell me more about the corporate espionage going on between RPG publishers. I can understand it too, what with the dozens of dollars at stake.

Who said anything about espionage or money? All I've ever seen amounted to base human spitefulness and rivalries.

Aside from TSR screwing with other companies left and right on various levels. Never covert though that I've ever heard of. Corporate screwovers though are a very different story and happen unfortunately too often. And that can, and has involved quite a bit of money lost.

Game companies do though monitor/spy on the fans. Which is also a different matter as well. SJG and WizKids are known because they pointed out that they had observers.

Outside of gaming I've had the misfortune to attend a convention back in the late 90s where one group of artists and publishers sabotaged the convention to try and ruin another group of artists and publishers. The whole con was a disaster. Which lead to the death of the convention which had been going well for 10 years.

After reading all of this, I come up with two main thoughts:

1. People are violating rule one: have fun.  As soon as that violation starts to happen (hour long chargen, GMs trying to "win", rude people, play style that leaves you cold, etc.), just stand up, say, "Thanks, this isn't quite what I was looking for" and leave.  Play styles vary, and one person's fun does not equal another person's fun.  That's okay (unless someone wants to get in your face about it).  Even if your choice of who you game with is forced to be strangers (at a con or because you don't have local gamer friends), you can still decide that one group of strangers isn't for you, or two players in your game have a different style and should be excluded/offered something else.  There are always more people.

2. Convention games have a higher chance of rule one violations.

Quote from: TristramEvans;824410Be that as it may, I think stories of corporate espionage tactics in the TTRPG world fall pretty clearly under the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" category

Which is also why they can get away with stunts like that.

Same as when we point out publishers refusing to pay designers or flat out stealing designs. Hell I just had that happen last year with a publisher refusing to pay and another guy was refused his royalties on sales due to a loophole in the contract wording the publisher exploited. Feel free to call me a liar.

Quote from: Omega;824497Which is also why they can get away with stunts like that.

Same as when we point out publishers refusing to pay designers or flat out stealing designs. Hell I just had that happen last year with a publisher refusing to pay and another guy was refused his royalties on sales due to a loophole in the contract wording the publisher exploited. Feel free to call me a liar.

I believe the stuff about freelancers not being paid for their work because a) it's plausible and b) I've seen several detailed accounts on the internet from people it has happened to. Heck, once upon a time something sort of similar happened to me, albeit it worked out for the best.

I've never seen any such reports or evidence for game companies spying on their customers, deliberately sabotaging conventions, or employing double agents to troll post while pretending to be fans of other games so as to diminish those games' chances of expanding their fanbase. I haven't seen you provide any detail or evidence for such claims, I've never heard such claims before from anyone else, and they don't strike me as being very likely. So, no offence meant, but currently I don't believe that they are true.

Quote from: soviet;824504I've never seen any such reports or evidence for game companies spying on their customers, deliberately sabotaging conventions, or employing double agents to troll post while pretending to be fans of other games so as to diminish those games' chances of expanding their fanbase.

I've seen troll posts by game companies before on Usenet. It happens, who cares. Probably not enough to make any difference, but then again, it could be rampant.

RE: convention...I saw a dude (not saying which Con) play in pretty much every GURPS game. Every time I'd pass by the gaming tables, he was there, playing GURPS. Annoying as fuck, too. Tried to pass himself off as a newbie gamer, wanting to learn GURPS, the whole time complaining. Turned out he worked for some small publisher who was also at the Con. Whether the two are related or not, I have no idea; he could have just been that fucking annoying and stupid.

Quote from: TristramEvans;824410Be that as it may, I think stories of corporate espionage tactics in the TTRPG world fall pretty clearly under the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" category

Colin McColmb spied on GDW and specifically Gary Gygax for TSR in the 80s? 90s?  Whenever Mythus was supposed to get going.

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page6067.php <- is where he wrote the piece but unfortunately it is down and by all appearances there are no archives of it.

EDIT:

We have it right here!

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17994

Back on topic.

Not sure if its creepy or kinda neet. But fans of games or other media who bodymod themselves could come across as going a little bit too far and put someone off a game if it seemed like this was the norm rather than the exception.

Vampire teeth embeds or restructures was the first I'd heard of.

But last year came across people documenting getting elf ear surgical mods. Before that I'd thought it was just wishful thinking. But people are actually getting it done.

Costuming and prosthetics is one thing. Pretty mundane at this point really. But actually permanently altering yourself? errr...

Quote from: Omega;824522Vampire teeth embeds or restructures was the first I'd heard of.

But last year came across people documenting getting elf ear surgical mods. Before that I'd thought it was just wishful thinking. But people are actually getting it done.

Costuming and prosthetics is one thing. Pretty mundane at this point really. But actually permanently altering yourself? errr...

Wouldn't that be a LARP rather than a pen and paper Table Top RPG?

When I got back in to AD&D, in '99, just prior to 3e's release the 3e crowd really, really put me off of 3e/d20.

Quote from: Bren;824524Wouldn't that be a LARP rather than a pen and paper Table Top RPG?

Some groups like to dress up in costume for regular RPGS. Liz and her husband were costume designers and theyd allways show up dressed as their characters. Liz had prosthetic elf ears even. (They just did it for fun and to "test run" costumes for how practical and wearable they were for extended lengths.) Jan would as well sometimes for her half-orc.

Quote from: Omega;824532Some groups like to dress up in costume for regular RPGS. Liz and her husband were costume designers and theyd allways show up dressed as their characters. Liz had prosthetic elf ears even. (They just did it for fun and to "test run" costumes for how practical and wearable they were for extended lengths.) Jan would as well sometimes for her half-orc.

OK. New to me. I think of dressing in costume as something done in LARPS not TTs. That's one among a number of reasons that dreadful Tom Hanks Mazes and Monsters movie seemed like it was made by people who were clueless about D&D.

I have had one or two players occasionally bringing the odd prop to a Call of Cthulhu game like a toy pistol or an unlit cigar, costumes is not something I've seen at the table. Actual dressing up in full costume is something I'd find distracting. I guess that just goes to show that different people like to play differently. :)

Kellri's story is one I've had myself; there are a lot of Tekumel fans out there whose obsessive attention to the most absurd details has done more to kill interest in Phil's creation then anything else. I used to have to sit through hours and hours of listening to these kind of people at conventions, and it killed a lot of my interest in Tekumel. I tried very hard in my RPG game at Gary Con to specifically avoid any of this kind of this, and it seemed to work well with the dozen people in the game.

Back in our time with Phil, we had a lot of fun doing things like props and costumes, but they never played a part in the game - we did them just to have fun. That seems to have gotten lost with a lot of these people; I have lost count of the number of times I've been told by folks "I wish I'd met you before I played in so-and-so's game; you make Tekumel fun!"

Sigh. Oh, well; what do I know, eh?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;824605Kellri's story is one I've had myself; there are a lot of Tekumel fans out there whose obsessive attention to the most absurd details has done more to kill interest in Phil's creation then anything else.

I'd like to mention the flip side to this.  There are the people who allege they are "fans" of something, but in all honesty they don't have any interest in the actual source material.  They're really fans of their own "vision."  The catch is their vision doesn't have anything to do with the original.

A textbook example is the Robotech campaign I played where there were no mecha.  The GM thought the idea of Destroids, Battle Pods, and Veritechs was stupid.  So the campaign was wandering around a desert in a jeep fighting regular human bandits.  It was basically a Road Warrior game, but he insisted it was Macross, despite it having no elements of Macross whatsoever.

Well, that's not entirely true.  It did have one element of Macross.  It had that jeep from the book.  That was the only thing that fit into his vision of Robotech.

Is there some database that tells us what fans of a given game are like? I only know the folks I've played with. No idea what reputation players of various games are supposed to have. I guess I don't visit enought RPG gossip sites. Then again I don't give an eff about what games other folks are playing.

Quote from: Matt;824613Is there some database that tells us what fans of a given game are like? I only know the folks I've played with. No idea what reputation players of various games are supposed to have. I guess I don't visit enought RPG gossip sites. Then again I don't give an eff about what games other folks are playing.

If there was one, it would be hard to keep said "fans" from editing their own entries, would it not?

Quote from: gabriel2;824609i'd like to mention the flip side to this.  There are the people who allege they are "fans" of something, but in all honesty they don't have any interest in the actual source material.  They're really fans of their own "vision."  the catch is their vision doesn't have anything to do with the original.

A textbook example is the robotech campaign i played where there were no mecha.  The gm thought the idea of destroids, battle pods, and veritechs was stupid.  So the campaign was wandering around a desert in a jeep fighting regular human bandits.  It was basically a road warrior game, but he insisted it was macross, despite it having no elements of macross whatsoever.

Well, that's not entirely true.  It did have one element of macross.  It had that jeep from the book.  That was the only thing that fit into his vision of robotech.

Palladium Books Presents Robotech Book Nine: Desert Nomads

Quote from: Brad;824629Palladium Books Presents Robotech Book Nine: Desert Nomads

Released three years too late and hacked apart by Kevin Simbedia.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;824626If there was one, it would be hard to keep said "fans" from editing their own entries, would it not?

Or, conversely, people who hated those games from doing the same:

"It's a well known fact throughout the gaming world that the majority of players of Whispers 'N Wonders are fat, middle-aged, homosexual, chain smoking minimaxers who are afraid of hygiene.  And they sodomize puppies!  With d8s!"

Quote from: Ravenswing;824791Or, conversely, people who hated those games from doing the same:

"It's a well known fact throughout the gaming world that the majority of players of Whispers 'N Wonders are fat, middle-aged, homosexual, chain smoking minimaxers who are afraid of hygiene.  And they sodomize puppies!  With d8s!"

It could be worse.


They could use d4s.

The fiends!!!

Heh, yeah.

Not that people haven't already tried various bits of editing malarkey.  I'm modestly proud of being the one responsible for getting the FATAL article booted off of Wikipedia, on the grounds that while it's an article of faith on certain Internet gaming forums that it's neck-and-neck with Mein Kampf and the Dred Scott decision for the evillest thing ever set down on paper, the uninformed opinions of ranting neckbeards don't necessarily translate to fact.

Quote from: Snowman0147;824021I seen people who cut open the tips of their fingers to shove magnets into them and stitch back their fingers.  I am not fucking lying about that and I wish I was.  That is some mess up people in real life.  How is that for transhumanism wankers?

That's nature's way of signalling to you that it's time to back away from the crazy as mofo and do not engage in conversation. If you're sitting down at a table and gaming with them then you may have a faulty survival instinct.

Yes

The World of Darkness craze in the Mid 90s. Emo Goths were a major turn off for me. I want action and excitement not a Group Encounter to explore mah feelz.

4e fans were a big turnoff. Although it did signal to me that maybe I was just getting old. Then 5e came... and it made me realize - I've always been old, but it was just those 4e fans that sucked.

So now I feel totally samey.

That said the fanbase of gamers that go to TBP and LIKE IT - now *they* suck. Like really bad.

No.  Sometimes I wonder how I haven't, but I guess I judge games and people on their own merits.

I can point out several people who are big time advocates of AD&D, who I have no interest in gaming with because of clashing styles and personalities, but it will always remain my favorite game.

Anyone want to explain why 4E fans suck?
Granted, I've played with plenty of shitty 4E players but the shitty behaviors I've seen from them are not much different from the shitty behaviors I've encountered among 3.5 and Pathfinder players.

I'm not here to argue with anybody, I just want to hear the details.

Quote from: Cave Bear;825040Anyone want to explain why 4E fans suck?
Granted, I've played with plenty of shitty 4E players but the shitty behaviors I've seen from them are not much different from the shitty behaviors I've encountered among 3.5 and Pathfinder players.

I'm not here to argue with anybody, I just want to hear the details.

Every conversation I've had with someone about 4e in person involves that person saying how awesomely balanced 4e is, and how it is a perfect example of how the sun shines out if the game's ass because it does tactical combat in an interesting way unlike any other edition of D&D because something something. These conversations usually start with any game other than 4e, with the person inserting 4e into the conversation to show how much better it is than whatever was the subject of the conversation.

Online is pretty much the same.

Plus many of the players are extremely butthurt that 5e went back away from the complex combat and back to looser balance, and they express just how wrong people are for accepting such uninteresting combat.

Quote from: snooggums;825041Every conversation I've had with someone about 4e in person involves that person saying how awesomely balanced 4e is, and how it is a perfect example of how the sun shines out if the game's ass because it does tactical combat in an interesting way unlike any other edition of D&D because something something. These conversations usually start with any game other than 4e, with the person inserting 4e into the conversation to show how much better it is than whatever was the subject of the conversation.

Online is pretty much the same.

Plus many of the players are extremely butthurt that 5e went back away from the complex combat and back to looser balance, and they express just how wrong people are for accepting such uninteresting combat.

I used to be one of those guys. I still like 4E, but I can understand why those behaviors are annoying.

Quote from: Cave Bear;825040Anyone want to explain why 4E fans suck?
Granted, I've played with plenty of shitty 4E players but the shitty behaviors I've seen from them are not much different from the shitty behaviors I've encountered among 3.5 and Pathfinder players.

I'm not here to argue with anybody, I just want to hear the details.

From personal experience. There is this really vicious underlying element to the 4e fans that as time went on, became more and more apparent that something was seriously fucked up with this group. Frothing at the mouth mad-dog insane is how some were acting as 5e rolled in. I'd like to think its limited to the net. But from all accounts. It isnt.

Part of the problem I think is that WOTC bred this mentality. WOTC went out of their way to insult players of previous editions and this had to have seeped into the mindset of the 4e fans to some degree.

3e fans I have not yet seen act like the 4e ones have.

Quote from: snooggums;825041Every conversation I've had with someone about 4e in person involves that person saying how awesomely balanced 4e is, and how it is a perfect example of how the sun shines out if the game's ass because it does tactical combat in an interesting way unlike any other edition of D&D because something something.

Seen that too. Then they cop an attitude when someone points out it feels more like a board game than a RPG. "No no no! Its not really a board game. Here play with the pogs some more and you'll see!"

Those sorts though tend to be milder. Though occasionally a little too obsessed with worshipping at the feet of the great god balance.

Quote from: Omega;825065From personal experience. There is this really vicious underlying element to the 4e fans that as time went on, became more and more apparent that something was seriously fucked up with this group. Frothing at the mouth mad-dog insane is how some were acting as 5e rolled in. I'd like to think its limited to the net. But from all accounts. It isnt.

Part of the problem I think is that WOTC bred this mentality. WOTC went out of their way to insult players of previous editions and this had to have seeped into the mindset of the 4e fans to some degree.

3e fans I have not yet seen act like the 4e ones have.

Most 5e fans were also 4e fans.

Most 4e fans were also 3e fans.

The distinction you're drawing is a false one.

Quote from: Omega;825065From personal experience. There is this really vicious underlying element to the 4e fans that as time went on, became more and more apparent that something was seriously fucked up with this group. Frothing at the mouth mad-dog insane is how some were acting as 5e rolled in. I'd like to think its limited to the net. But from all accounts. It isnt.

Part of the problem I think is that WOTC bred this mentality. WOTC went out of their way to insult players of previous editions and this had to have seeped into the mindset of the 4e fans to some degree.

3e fans I have not yet seen act like the 4e ones have.

This is what I have concluded as well.

4E is not a bad game, I would love to see it used in the same manner as Blood Bowl or Space Hulk. I could have a lot of fun with it.

But Goddamn, the 4rons. I was hounded by the local RPGA guys about playing 4E and I was only playing other versions of D&D out of nostalgia. When my local FLGS was having a half-off sale to get rid of 3.x material, the guy behind the register talked me out of a $50 purchase by telling me how backwards I was for still messing with 3.x.

Quote from: soviet;825067Most 5e fans were also 4e fans.

Most 4e fans were also 3e fans.

The distinction you're drawing is a false one.

Some 5e fans were also 4e fans.

Some 4e fans were also 3e fans.

The distinction you are drawing is the false one.

The 3e fans did not turn into the online rabid pack the 4e ones did. So what is there about 4e that triggers this when its a-lot less evident in previous editions? It isnt the game itself. I've glanced through the books recently and I do not recall anything off kilter in the tone.

Where did the general obsession with balance creep in?

When did the so called 4venger movement start?

Quote from: Omega;825076The 3e fans did not turn into the online rabid pack the 4e ones did.

That could be selective perception on your part.
Please do not be offended by my saying that; we all suffer from cognitive biases.
I've seen a lot of rapid pack behavior on the part of Pathfinder players (but then that could be my own cognitive biases speaking.)

QuoteSo what is there about 4e that triggers this when its a-lot less evident in previous editions? It isnt the game itself. I've glanced through the books recently and I do not recall anything off kilter in the tone.

Where did the general obsession with balance creep in?

When did the so called 4venger movement start?

The thing about 4E is that it is, first and foremost, a reaction to 3.5.
It's a reaction to the "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" problem. It's a reaction to splat-bloat and power-creep.

4E was designed to be anti-3.5.
A lot of 3.5 fans took offense to this (understandable, in hindsight.)

I saw a lot of third edition fans react to this offense by hurling vitriol not only at the developers and the game itself, but also at its fans. I've been personally accosted at game stores by third edition fans. I've put up fliers for games only to have them torn down. Someone actually called me a "retarded baby" to my face when I merely mentioned that I was in the store to buy the latest 4E book.
And there was a massive backlash against 4E in the online community.

Does it surprise you that 4E fans would respond by circling the wagons?
The 4E fan base got defensive, doubled-down, and went on a counter-offensive, just like the third edition players did.

There's nothing inherent within the games themselves that caused all this to go down. This happened because human cognition is fucked. Look at all the shit society has to deal with (anti-vaxxers, ISIS, climate-change deniers, etc.) and tell me that this is not the case.

Quote from: Omega;825076When did the so called 4venger movement start?

Probably around the time of the release of the Old School Primer and the Disassociated Mechanics essay. Both of these were taken, erroneously I may add, as attacks on 4th edition. Because if their fun wasnt everyone's fun that was badwrong.

Quote from: TristramEvans;825095Probably around the time of the release of the Old School Primer and the Disassociated Mechanics essay. Both of these were taken, erroneously I may add, as attacks on 4th edition. Because if their fun wasnt everyone's fun that was badwrong.

The problem with all of us geeks is that we construct our identities out of shit that doesn't matter. When you play the same game every week for years it becomes more than just a thing you do every week, it becomes a part of who you are.
When people criticize the game you're attached to it can feel like an attack on your selfhood. And when people attack your selfhood, the parts of your brain responsible for rational thought shut down and your fight or flight instincts kick in. Even if it's on the internet. We only got the internet just recently, but we still have the same homo-sapien brains we've had four millenia.

This is true of the entire human race. We all construct our sense of self from petty, fleeting attachments. When our attachments are threatened, we get scared and angry because we fear for our selves. It's not just 4E fans. It's not just third edition fans. It's not just oldschoolers. It's not just geeks.
It's every single human being on this planet.

Quote from: Cave Bear;825100The problem with all of us geeks is that we construct our identities out of shit that doesn't matter. When you play the same game every week for years it becomes more than just a thing you do every week, it becomes a part of who you are.
When people criticize the game you're attached to it can feel like an attack on your selfhood. And when people attack your selfhood, the parts of your brain responsible for rational thought shut down and your fight or flight instincts kick in. Even if it's on the internet. We only got the internet just recently, but we still have the same homo-sapien brains we've had four millenia.

This is true of the entire human race. We all construct our sense of self from petty, fleeting attachments. When our attachments are threatened, we get scared and angry because we fear for our selves. It's not just 4E fans. It's not just third edition fans. It's not just oldschoolers. It's not just geeks.
It's every single human being on this planet.

Thats all truth. Even I feel it, even if I like to think Im generally self-aware enough to brush it off.

Generally. Im sure I've slipped up from time to time.

Quote from: Cave Bear;825100The problem with all of us geeks is that we construct our identities out of shit that doesn't matter. When you play the same game every week for years it becomes more than just a thing you do every week, it becomes a part of who you are.
When people criticize the game you're attached to it can feel like an attack on your selfhood. And when people attack your selfhood, the parts of your brain responsible for rational thought shut down and your fight or flight instincts kick in. Even if it's on the internet. We only got the internet just recently, but we still have the same homo-sapien brains we've had four millenia.

This is true of the entire human race. We all construct our sense of self from petty, fleeting attachments. When our attachments are threatened, we get scared and angry because we fear for our selves. It's not just 4E fans. It's not just third edition fans. It's not just oldschoolers. It's not just geeks.
It's every single human being on this planet.

So, is this supposed to excuse or justify bad behavior?

Quote from: jeff37923;825108So, is this supposed to excuse or justify bad behavior?

Doesnt seem to do anything besides explain it.

and perhaps morosely acknowledge the inevitability of it.

Quote from: Omega;825076The 3e fans did not turn into the online rabid pack

That's definitely not the way I remember it.

Quote from: Gabriel2;825115That's definitely not the way I remember it.

yel, same here. About 3 or 4 months before 4e launched there was already a growing hate towards the game, mostly due to WotC "treatment" of previous edition players (that damn video), to 3PP support, and the fact that Paizo wasn't on board.

When the game was released in my area (Pittsburgh) it got mixed reviews from the few FLGS here, but mostly a 'meh' attitude overall. THEN the Amazon and YouTube comments started to come out and the online community started. From that point on, the e-wars were in full swing. Many 4e fans, like myself, felt the need to "right" every misguided and incorrect slant and opinion of 4e. I don't really know why? Looking back, it really wasn't worth my time and energy. There are lots of dumbass people on the web that will vilify,  at some point, something that one cherishs and I think the easiest and natural response is to fight back.

It's all rather pointless now though. I will say that no one side was "right" in the matter. 3e and pre-WotC fans sure did their share of mud slinging too and I experienced it in person. Just as 4e fans would have been better off ignoring the hate and did a better job connecting to the "on the fence" people about the system.

Quote from: Cave Bear;825087T
I saw a lot of third edition fans react to this offense by hurling vitriol not only at the developers and the game itself, but also at its fans. I've been personally accosted at game stores by third edition fans. I've put up fliers for games only to have them torn down. Someone actually called me a "retarded baby" to my face when I merely mentioned that I was in the store to buy the latest 4E book.

Similar sentiments here too.

After awhile I just got sick and tired of dealing with such annoying individuals at local gaming/comic stores.  After a few months of this, I just purchased my 4E books from amazon.

I have encountered fan bases that seem a bit aggressive or hostile to people that don't do things the way they do. However I wouldn't want to miss out on a good system just because some of its users are jerks.

Quote from: soviet;825067Most 5e fans were also 4e fans.

Most 4e fans were also 3e fans.

The distinction you're drawing is a false one.

Hairpicking alert!

There is zero evidence for *any* of these claims. We don't know that "most" 5e fans were also *anything*.

Nor do we know with any certainty that most 4e fans were "also" 3e fans. Was there some kinda survey we missed?

The counterpoint you are drawing is false before you even get to your claim, since you have no evidence to support the claims you're basing your counterpoint on. Other than your feelings.

But I digress...

Personally I don't care either way, I just saw this claim and had a WTF impulse. If you like 4e go crazy and play the shit out of it!


Edit: goddammit... Omega already said all this. /shakes fist!!!

Quote from: Cave Bear;825087That could be selective perception on your part.
Please do not be offended by my saying that; we all suffer from cognitive biases.
I've seen a lot of rapid pack behavior on the part of Pathfinder players (but then that could be my own cognitive biases speaking.)

Havent had much of anything to do with Pathfinder so far so will have to take other peoples word on wether or not the fanbase over there is bad or not. Worst I've heard of the Pathfinder fans sounded like carryover from the 3e fans. That they were essentially the same. Mostly just char-op/white room stuff?

Still doesnt sound as bad as the levels the 4e players go.

Im sure someone will dispel my blissful ignorance. :eek:

Quote from: Cave Bear;825087The thing about 4E is that it is, first and foremost, a reaction to 3.5.
It's a reaction to the "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" problem. It's a reaction to splat-bloat and power-creep.

4E was designed to be anti-3.5.
A lot of 3.5 fans took offense to this (understandable, in hindsight.)

I saw a lot of third edition fans react to this offense by hurling vitriol not only at the developers and the game itself, but also at its fans. I've been personally accosted at game stores by third edition fans. I've put up fliers for games only to have them torn down. Someone actually called me a "retarded baby" to my face when I merely mentioned that I was in the store to buy the latest 4E book.
And there was a massive backlash against 4E in the online community.

Does it surprise you that 4E fans would respond by circling the wagons?
The 4E fan base got defensive, doubled-down, and went on a counter-offensive, just like the third edition players did.

There's nothing inherent within the games themselves that caused all this to go down. This happened because human cognition is fucked. Look at all the shit society has to deal with (anti-vaxxers, ISIS, climate-change deniers, etc.) and tell me that this is not the case.

Ignorance dispelled... Gee... thanks alot guys, and gals... and whatever-you-ares...

Quote from: jeff37923;8250744E is not a bad game, I would love to see it used in the same manner as Blood Bowl or Space Hulk. I could have a lot of fun with it

I really enjoy the 4e based adventure board games. They are great. I'll never play actual 4e again though probably, unless a friend really wanted to run it I guess.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;825225I really enjoy the 4e based adventure board games. They are great. I'll never play actual 4e again though probably, unless a friend really wanted to run it I guess.

From my glance through a 4e DMG recently it looked well set up. but also seemed like there was a massive lack of random gen tables. the 3e  DMG was better in that respect. But overall it seemed ok. Just read a little too much like a wargame manual at points and too much like a storytelling game in others. Odd mix. But nothing we havent seen before. I liked the art in the 4e MM way more than the 3e one. Wasnt so keen on the layout though. But eh. Seen worse.

The three board games were kinda bland though. A little too simplistic compared to what else was out there or had gone before. Havent had a chance to look at the Lords of Waterdeep yet.

Quote from: Batman;825131yel, same here. About 3 or 4 months before 4e launched there was already a growing hate towards the game, mostly due to WotC "treatment" of previous edition players (that damn video), to 3PP support, and the fact that Paizo wasn't on board.

What video was that? This sounds awful...

Quote from: RF Victor;825270What video was that? This sounds awful...

This one, I think?
https://youtu.be/sbbqMoEwDqc

Yeah, sometimes marketing people attempt to be clever and tongue-in-cheek and the whole thing just blows up in their face.
Remember the whole "John Romero will make you his bitch" thing from Daikatana?
Or even the whole "spicy meatball" thing from way back then.
https://youtu.be/NQhwNtY3N2k

Quote from: Cave Bear;825285This one, I think?
https://youtu.be/sbbqMoEwDqc

Yeah, sometimes marketing people attempt to be clever and tongue-in-cheek and the whole thing just blows up in their face.
Remember the whole "John Romero will make you his bitch" thing from Daikatana?
Or even the whole "spicy meatball" thing from way back then.
https://youtu.be/NQhwNtY3N2k

White Wolf's "Evolve your game" bullshit from a few years ago....

Quote from: Nexus;825287White Wolf's "Evolve your game" bullshit from a few years ago....

Yeah; it made me want to tear the cover off of a ww book and send it in to see if I could get a few D&D books.

Quote from: Cave Bear;825285This one, I think?
https://youtu.be/sbbqMoEwDqc

Yeah I can tell they were not trying to insult the game.  No I am serious with that statement.  That teaser wasn't insulting at all to the early editions.  Like it, or not editions were not perfect.  4th edition certainly had its flaws to go with third edition, second edition, and so on.

Now the shit White Wolf pulled with its "Evolve your Game" ad.  You know that was insulting to D&D.  There was no fucking excuse for that.

Quote from: Snowman0147;825355Yeah I can tell they were not trying to insult the game.  No I am serious with that statement.  That teaser wasn't insulting at all to the early editions.

Yes they were.

QuoteNow the shit White Wolf pulled with its "Evolve your Game" ad.  You know that was insulting to D&D.  There was no fucking excuse for that.

Agreed.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;825356Agreed.

Exalted is basically pushed as some kind of "Anti D and D" higher order game. Rarely does a thread go by without someone, either a fan or a developer taking a pot shot at D and D.

Which makes the title its earned around here all the funnier.

"Exalted: Dungeons and Dragons for people that think they're too good for Dungeons and Dragons."

Quote from: Nexus;825359Exalted is basically pushed as some kind of "Anti D and D" higher order game. Rarely does a thread go by without someone, either a fan or a developer taking a pot shot at D and D.

Which makes the title its earned around here all the funnier.

"Exalted: Dungeons and Dragons for people that think they're too good for Dungeons and Dragons."

Yup.  The fact that you're godlings squaring off against powerful spirits who can smack you down with a single eyebrow twitch is no different from scrappy 3-hp-having fighters, magic-users and clerics of OD&D squaring off against orcs who can smack you down equally as easily.

It's a matter of scale, really.  You sure can go buy a BMW and I a Honda but at the end of the day we've both gotta buy gas and oil for it, and drive on the same roads.

I'm not even a huge D and D fan (the game seem fine just not my cup of tea) but the incessant pissing on is annoying it. It sounds petulant and jealous more than anything. And misinformed to boot.

I would have played Exalted if it had been even remotely the type of game the fandom at TBP describes it as.  But the simple truth is that it's nothing like that and clunky as fuck to boot.

However, the Exalted fandom at TBP did convince me that I never wanted to have any dealings with the Exalted fandom in general.

Does anyone have a link to that "Evolve your game" ad?

Morbid curiosity.

Quote from: Gabriel2;825372I would have played Exalted if it had been even remotely the type of game the fandom at TBP describes it as.  But the simple truth is that it's nothing like that and clunky as fuck to boot.

However, the Exalted fandom at TBP did convince me that I never wanted to have any dealings with the Exalted fandom in general.

Exalted is and has always been meant to be so many damn things who can tell anymore? I've given up trying and I just hope the rules can do the game i want. Though at this point its a strain to plow into that phone book they've created to find out.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;825356Yes they were.

I think a lot of people were offended. I don't, however,  believe the makers of the video intended to insult the fans of previous editions. It pointed out some rather glaring elements from each of the previous editions that were considered odd, bad, or otherwise hindered the game. 3e's grappling system,  the example used in the video, was precisely spot on and a VERY significant reason why grappling was never really used in the game (from my experience anyways).

Of course it turned out to be a bad video and angered a lot of fans. People didn't get the tongue-in-cheek vibe and considered it an all-out attack on their preferred system. So not a great way to start out a brand new edition IMO.

Quote from: Nexus;823976I have to admit this has happened to me a few times. I was interested in the game but nature of its fans and community were just too irritating to deal with so I avoided getting into it.

I wouldn't say the fanbase of a game was irritating so much as I realized they all had a different understanding of, or interest in, the game than I did. That I was the odd man out, and was always going to be. And that I was probably never going to find like minded people to play it with. For me it usually happens after I get into the game and internalize it, and realize my philosophy is out of step with the rest of the world.

Now, web communities are a different matter. In the last few days I finally had my fill of another well-known RPG site, and landed here. Nothing to do with any particular game though.

I haven't had any really bad experiences with a game's fans but I have encountered players who have put me off.

Though I suspect that there have been individuals who have found the same about me (many are probably guilty of this). I had two games with a Traveller GM who was very interested in having his game his way and didn't appreciate my playing my character, though I suspect that was on him.

My fiancee felt the way of the original question about my original Traveller group, though it was mostly due to one of the other players having very strong political feelings (another member of that group felt that way too).

I have to say, I do find the entire premise of this thread to be rather weird. I can understand a dickish fanbase putting you off interacting with that fanbase. But what difference does it make to your ability to enjoy the game itself by association?

Quote from: Kiero;825673I have to say, I do find the entire premise of this thread to be rather weird. I can understand a dickish fanbase putting you off interacting with that fanbase. But what difference does it make to your ability to enjoy the game itself by association?

I believe it has more to do with the potential pool of players and bumping into those fans that annoy you. Also, supporting the game and then being associated with people who behave in a way that you disapprove of.

Eh, annoying people who are overzealous about something can definitely turn people off of things.

In the 90s, I didn't really watch TV, but I got soooo sick of hearing about the X-Files that I developed a real aversion to the show, without ever having watched it.

Of course, the first episode I did watch involved immortal sex-changing sex-addict pheromone producing Amish vampires from space, so there's that.

Quote from: Kiero;825673I have to say, I do find the entire premise of this thread to be rather weird. I can understand a dickish fanbase putting you off interacting with that fanbase. But what difference does it make to your ability to enjoy the game itself by association?

I think there's an element of "battered spouse syndrome" involved, if you identify too strongly with a community or a game, only to realize later that you're involved with a bunch of abusive tools. In my case, leaving the community was a way to stop letting the so-called "fans" defined how I did my gaming, what was "right" and what was "badwrongfun." Abandoning the entire scene, striking out on my own, and writing an original setting myself was the best damn thing I ever did.

I think actually part of what put me off Exalted 2E was reading the endless criticism of it online. I was having fun with my group until I started letting the internet infect my headspace.

I'm not saying the game is perfect or anything - just that the problems with many RPGs are not seen by all groups. If you're having fun with a game that the internet has issues with, don't read the internet.

Quote from: Kiero;825673I have to say, I do find the entire premise of this thread to be rather weird. I can understand a dickish fanbase putting you off interacting with that fanbase. But what difference does it make to your ability to enjoy the game itself by association?

Once upon a time (sometime between the age of the dinosaurs and the invention of the world wide web) there were only a handful of RPGs to play. One could play all the RPGs around to give them a try. Now there are really too many games to play all of them and try them out. So most people use some filtering method. One filtering method is the "well if that asshole likes it, I'll avoid it" filter. Not to say that's the best filter to use, but it is a filter.

Quote from: Kiero;825673I have to say, I do find the entire premise of this thread to be rather weird. I can understand a dickish fanbase putting you off interacting with that fanbase. But what difference does it make to your ability to enjoy the game itself by association?

Part of it for some is likely wanting to participate in a community. And then running into the worst of them. Or in the worse case scenario. These people have taken over the community. I have personally seen that happen more than a few times now and it is never pleasant and it can and for some does have a distinct dulling effect.

Others just divorce themselves totally from the community and keep on playing.

Bren in the post above makes another good point for why. As a filter.

And as I pointed out upthread. In the worst of worst case scenarios, these pricks somehow either influence the game, or actually gain control of it with their "vision".

Everyone has a different breaking point where for one reason or another it goes from "So they are jerks? I'll keep playing without them" to "They are scum and I never want to see this product again!"

Bemusingly. Quite a few gravitate back to whatever they quit after a time away. The call is subtle and seductive. Not so bemusingly. Some times we return and find that things have actually gotten worse in the meantime.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;825694I think there's an element of "battered spouse syndrome" involved, if you identify too strongly with a community or a game, only to realize later that you're involved with a bunch of abusive tools. In my case, leaving the community was a way to stop letting the so-called "fans" defined how I did my gaming, what was "right" and what was "badwrongfun."

That's kinda how I came to feel about D&D back in the Wayback. The D&D fans I was running into locally, once I went off to college, were such massive jerks that I started to avoid any mention that I played the game. The first couple groups I played with were great people... but out in the wild it seemed to be all about maladroids with nasty power fantasies. Once I stepped away, to Traveller and Runequest... rules I liked better anyway... there was a lot less of that. But for years, if someone asked if I played D&D I'd blurt an emphatic "No" because I didn't want to be associated with that crowd.

Quote from: Snowman0147;823985Actually yes.  I had games I wanted to try and the fans just ruin it for me because I don't want to play with them.  The reason why I don't want to play with them is because their are assholes that talk, but don't do the walk.  A lot of these fanboyz tend to be social justice warriors that would screech out diversity one second and tell a black person to shut the fuck up the next second.  There is a reason I don't play a lot of FATE and avoid narration games these days.

Maybe you are just a racist! ;)

Diversity? :banghead:

Quote from: RF Victor;823986Yes! Back in the 90's, even though I was already running it, I quit Vampire: the Masquerade thanks to the local fans and the "game culture" they created for themselves and imposed upon everyone else by virtue of "having the grown-up game women liked" where I played.

My Vampire games were just like regular RPGs, so I got labelled the "imature" Vampire GM (Oops, sorry -- Storyteller!) for not creating the free form improv formless thing they liked to run. Vampire "adventures" with tombs and the mob and fighting werewolves were forbidden! You had to play through these pointless meetings, parties and conclaves and rejoice in this amateur theater of bad dialogue. It was dreadful. It was a dreadful time. Please stop asking random people inside the store "what clan are you." Stop. JUST FUCKING STOP I'M GOING TO FUCKING BRAKE YOUR LEGS IF YOU

Sorry, had a flashback there.  :D

The developers still think the wod is more "mature" and there are "actually women playing it".

Also the play by post games I saw was just endless conversations, meetings in bars and clubs, parties, clan meetings, covenants meetings, Elysium, Prince's court etc. Going nowhere really. Just people talking about what clothes they wear and what the characters feel like at the moment. My games are more like yours.

Crap this thread has 17 pages!

Quote from: jan paparazzi;825717The developers still think the wod is more "mature" and there are "actually women playing it".

Wow. So WoD managed to do in 1991 what I (and the people I gamed with) had been doing since 1981. Yeah, White Wolf, be careful not to break your arm patting yourself on the back there. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Gwarh;824937Yes

The World of Darkness craze in the Mid 90s. Emo Goths were a major turn off for me. I want action and excitement not a Group Encounter to explore mah feelz.

Yeah or some sort of dark mystery. Occult investigation and weird horror. The strange thing is they are just talking. It isn't even politics (which can be cool); it's just socializing.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;825717The developers still think the wod is more "mature" and there are "actually women playing it".

Even as someone whose groups regularly have at least 50% women, I have to admit that the local LARP did have an overwhelmingly large percentage of women when I attended(70%+ most weeks). That was about 13 or 14 years ago. No clue if that was typical for the time, or if it was just a local oddity.

QuoteAlso the play by post games I saw was just endless conversations, meetings in bars and clubs, parties, clan meetings, covenants meetings, Elysium, Prince's court etc. Going nowhere really. Just people talking about what clothes they wear and what the characters feel like at the moment. My games are more like yours.

Truth! This is exactly what the few weeks I spent giving the LARP a chance were like. And don't forget the chain-smoking! I don't know why anyone would stick with such a dull game. All it gave me were a few hours of boredom followed by a massive headache from being around such a steady stream of smoke.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;825721Truth! This is exactly what the few weeks I spent giving the LARP a chance were like. And don't forget the chain-smoking! I don't know why anyone would stick with such a dull game. All it gave me were a few hours of boredom followed by a massive headache from being around such a steady stream of smoke.

The games aren't dull. The crowd sucks.

Well, I am shitting on the crowd anyway. There is a group in vampire called the Carthians who are like an umbrella version of the Anarchs. They are anti-establishment (aka the feudal system with a prince/senechal/sheriff etc.) and want to replace it with another modern political philosophy.

And then you get discussions like this (http://forums.whitewolfarchive.com/defaulta259-11.html?g=posts&t=40278).

Well, need I say more ...

People at the WW and SnE fora ate it all up. They love this sort of stuff. To me it's just dull. I prefered the geeky plot of the old games over this. At least I could wrap my head around "Technocracy wants to wipe out all magic" vs "Mages want to save the world by preserving magic".

Wod fans are like Tool fans. Good band, but they have some pseudo intelectual lyrics that the fans take way too seriously. They think Tool are sooooo intelligent and the music is so much higher and better than any other kind of music (HOW DARE YOU COMPARE METALLICA TO TOOL? DON'T YOU KNOW THEY CAN PLAY IN 7/8 and in 13/5 AND THEY MADE A SONG ABOUT THE FIB... THE FIBBONIATI... THE FIBBONIARRI SEQUENCE... well the thing from the Da Vinci Code?). They only listen to Tool and A Perfect Circle (with the singer from Tool). Making their own world smaller and smaller.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;825715Maybe you are just a racist! ;)

Diversity? :banghead:

What's wrong with telling a black person to STFU?

Maybe over on rpgnet or whatever it's called, but near as I can tell they're all white liberals who need to protect the rest of us and stand up for us because we lack the ability of gumption to do it for ourselves. It's also fun when they lecture me about my own culture as if they had a fucking clue aside from what they read in textbooks or were told on their guided tours.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;825719Yeah or some sort of dark mystery. Occult investigation and weird horror. The strange thing is they are just talking. It isn't even politics (which can be cool); it's just socializing.

I always wondered why so many games I remember from the 90s (anything relatively modern/futuristic) featured floorplans for dance clubs and concert venues. It seemed like the PCs were meant to 'hang out' in these places but I never caught on to what they'd do there... but I guess 'socializing' might be it.

Then again, maybe the designers just liked drawing up their ideal nightclub.

Quote from: Simlasa;825752I always wondered why so many games I remember from the 90s (anything relatively modern/futuristic) featured floorplans for dance clubs and concert venues. It seemed like the PCs were meant to 'hang out' in these places but I never caught on to what they'd do there... but I guess 'socializing' might be it.

Then again, maybe the designers just liked drawing up their ideal nightclub.

Thoroughness and I believe dance clubs were on the upswing at the time in popularity so why not? Theu make for great meeting areas and large open areas for fights. And places targets and suspects may hang out at. Probably also the modern equivament of a tavern. "You all meet in the dance club"

Quote from: jan paparazzi;825715Maybe you are just a racist! ;)

Diversity? :banghead:

How in the hell can I be a racist when I am not the one telling black people to shut up?  Do you even read my post?  I pointed out that the social justice crowd that makes up the fan base are the ones telling black people to shut up as soon as those black people started to go against the narration that the social justice crowd had created.

(psst! the emoticon is winking!) ;)

Quote from: Ravenswing;824882Heh, yeah.

Not that people haven't already tried various bits of editing malarkey.  I'm modestly proud of being the one responsible for getting the FATAL article booted off of Wikipedia, on the grounds that while it's an article of faith on certain Internet gaming forums that it's neck-and-neck with Mein Kampf and the Dred Scott decision for the evillest thing ever set down on paper, the uninformed opinions of ranting neckbeards don't necessarily translate to fact.

you fucking monster i have never liked you that much but somebody who thinks its ok to remove an artical from wikipida for such a stupid reason is the scum of the earth fuck you man

Quote from: Omega;824492Who said anything about espionage or money? All I've ever seen amounted to base human spitefulness and rivalries.

Aside from TSR screwing with other companies left and right on various levels. Never covert though that I've ever heard of. Corporate screwovers though are a very different story and happen unfortunately too often. And that can, and has involved quite a bit of money lost.

Game companies do though monitor/spy on the fans. Which is also a different matter as well. SJG and WizKids are known because they pointed out that they had observers.

Outside of gaming I've had the misfortune to attend a convention back in the late 90s where one group of artists and publishers sabotaged the convention to try and ruin another group of artists and publishers. The whole con was a disaster. Which lead to the death of the convention which had been going well for 10 years.

keeping an eye on the comunity is just commen sense how else will you know what people like

Quote from: Omega;825065WOTC went out of their way to insult players of previous editions

one does wonder what the hell they were thinking doing that

Quote from: Batman;825131yel, same here. About 3 or 4 months before 4e launched there was already a growing hate towards the game, mostly due to WotC "treatment" of previous edition players (that damn video), to 3PP support, and the fact that Paizo wasn't on board.

When the game was released in my area (Pittsburgh) it got mixed reviews from the few FLGS here, but mostly a 'meh' attitude overall. THEN the Amazon and YouTube comments started to come out and the online community started. From that point on, the e-wars were in full swing. Many 4e fans, like myself, felt the need to "right" every misguided and incorrect slant and opinion of 4e. I don't really know why? Looking back, it really wasn't worth my time and energy. There are lots of dumbass people on the web that will vilify,  at some point, something that one cherishs and I think the easiest and natural response is to fight back.

It's all rather pointless now though. I will say that no one side was "right" in the matter. 3e and pre-WotC fans sure did their share of mud slinging too and I experienced it in person. Just as 4e fans would have been better off ignoring the hate and did a better job connecting to the "on the fence" people about the system.

i came in in the middle of the 5e release and at that time if you said you prefered 3.5 to 5e you were accused of being a troll

Quote from: Omega;825216Havent had much of anything to do with Pathfinder so far so will have to take other peoples word on wether or not the fanbase over there is bad or not.

i think i mentioned this eariler for the most part the pathfinder comunity is pretty good as long as you stay away from the iconics they seem to draw out the social justice warriors

Quote from: Omega;825216Havent had much of anything to do with Pathfinder so far so will have to take other peoples word on wether or not the fanbase over there is bad or not.

i think i mentioned this eariler for the most part the pathfinder comunity is pretty good as long as you stay away from the iconics they seem to draw out the social justice warriors

Quote from: Snowman0147;825902How in the hell can I be a racist when I am not the one telling black people to shut up?  Do you even read my post?  I pointed out that the social justice crowd that makes up the fan base are the ones telling black people to shut up as soon as those black people started to go against the narration that the social justice crowd had created.

Uhhhm irony. Come on, on this site people are supposed to have a sense of humor. We are not on that other site here.

Quote from: Matt;825751What's wrong with telling a black person to STFU?

Maybe over on rpgnet or whatever it's called, but near as I can tell they're all white liberals who need to protect the rest of us and stand up for us because we lack the ability of gumption to do it for ourselves. It's also fun when they lecture me about my own culture as if they had a fucking clue aside from what they read in textbooks or were told on their guided tours.

It's so weird that that specific political correctness from people with too many liberal guilt ended up being dominant on rpg fora. Most rpg geeks (and boardgame/ccg geeks) I know are very laid back. You could spit them in the face and they would probably say thank you. You just can't anger them. And on fora you get the pseudo intellectuals who are upset about everything. Race, culture, gender, you name it.

The art of humor suffers terribly in the written word due to the lack of body language and inflection... which only brings on more humor to those who already "got it."
:D
Do carry on!

Quote from: Simlasa;825752I always wondered why so many games I remember from the 90s (anything relatively modern/futuristic) featured floorplans for dance clubs and concert venues. It seemed like the PCs were meant to 'hang out' in these places but I never caught on to what they'd do there... but I guess 'socializing' might be it.

Then again, maybe the designers just liked drawing up their ideal nightclub.

Never thought about that but it's hilarious. Also all the plots with "designer drugs" the PCs are supposed to investigate by going to these dance clubs and "underground raves in abandoned warehouses," at least in super hero games.

Quote from: Matt;825953Never thought about that but it's hilarious. Also all the plots with "designer drugs" the PCs are supposed to investigate by going to these dance clubs and "underground raves in abandoned warehouses," at least in super hero games.

I dunno... I used to use them in my games. But then my PC's were never under the impression at *any* point they weren't a bunch of fucking monsters. The floorplans of the Succubus Club were a great way for them to plan where they were going to figure out where to leave the bodies...

Sure we roleplayed the club vibe (back then we all actively went clubbing), but it was either for politicking for some angle - usually a plot to take someone down permanently. Or it was to hunt.

Any PC in WoD that's just "hanging around" and "socializing" with nothing to do - is a useless player. That's when the GM says "fuck it." and a bomb goes off in the club...

Quote from: Simlasa;825752I always wondered why so many games I remember from the 90s (anything relatively modern/futuristic) featured floorplans for dance clubs and concert venues. It seemed like the PCs were meant to 'hang out' in these places but I never caught on to what they'd do there... but I guess 'socializing' might be it.

Then again, maybe the designers just liked drawing up their ideal nightclub.

"In the Grim Darkness of the 90s, There is only Dance..."

We rp'ed socializing and hanging out with no greater goals sometimes. For the Hell of it and sometimes it lead to other things as characters tried to do things and, being PCs they snowballed.

But basically it felt right for the characters who were very high in Humanity to get out and interact with humans as more than pawns and feedbags and clubs were generally the only places that kept the same hours we did.

Quote from: TristramEvans;825964"In the Grim Darkness of the 90s, There is only Dance..."

lol. "...but in one small town, not even the light of Dance was allowed."

Quote from: trechriron;825979lol. "...but in one small town, not even the light of Dance was allowed."

See, that made me think of Kevin Bacon, and that made me think of Tremors, and now I want to run a Dark Heresy campaign based on Tremors using a new genotype of Tyranids....

Quote from: TristramEvans;825983See, that made me think of Kevin Bacon, and that made me think of Tremors, and now I want to run a Dark Heresy campaign based on Tremors using a new genotype of Tyranids....

Which have infected the primary Agri-World of the sector. :D

Quote from: TristramEvans;825983See, that made me think of Kevin Bacon, and that made me think of Tremors, and now I want to run a Dark Heresy campaign based on Tremors using a new genotype of Tyranids....

Okay, suddenly I want to run a Dark Heresy game again. That's pretty cool.

Quote from: CRKrueger;825989Which have infected the primary Agri-World of the sector. :D

...and that only certain Dance Routines Man Was Not Meant To Know (tm) can weaken said horrors enough that regular arms can destroy them.

Everybody cut Everybody cut...
Everybody cut Everybody cut...
Everybody cut Everybody cut.
Everybody.
Everybody cut... Footloose!

Quote from: trechriron;825993...and that only certain Dance Routines Man Was Not Meant To Know (tm) can weaken said horrors enough that regular arms can destroy them.

Everybody cut Everybody cut...
Everybody cut Everybody cut...
Everybody cut Everybody cut.
Everybody.
Everybody cut... Footloose!

Actually, I'm pretty sure dancing like that will summon a 'worm....

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;826005Actually, I'm pretty sure dancing like that will summon a 'worm....

Only if you walk without rhythm.

But if you walk without rhythm, heh, you'll never learn.

Quote from: Gwarh;824937Yes

The World of Darkness craze in the Mid 90s. Emo Goths were a major turn off for me. I want action and excitement not a Group Encounter to explore mah feelz.

You should have played Vampire with our group, then!  100% exciting, adrenaline-fueled content, without all the needless angst.

Quote from: DMK;826040You should have played Vampire with our group, then!  100% exciting, adrenaline-fueled content, without all the needless angst.

Yeah, yeah but what about the NEEDED angst? What did you do with that?

Quote from: GeekEclectic;825721Even as someone whose groups regularly have at least 50% women, I have to admit that the local LARP did have an overwhelmingly large percentage of women when I attended(70%+ most weeks). That was about 13 or 14 years ago. No clue if that was typical for the time, or if it was just a local oddity.

Is this at the old Komics Kastle or the old Comics Plus?  I may or may not have lived in you neck of the woods back in the 90s.

Cheers!

WOD peaked with The Matrix.

It crashed with The Matrix 2.

It died with The Matrix 3.

It was buried again and again by Underworld 2,3,4,...

All of that being said, I was at a Comic convention in ATL back in 00-01 that had a sister Goth/WOD/Sex/Bondage Con going on nearby.  My artists friends and I (one or two were WW artists) went over to the Goth con on the Saturday night.  Let me tell you, the Goth con was a complete and utter disgrace on every level imaginable.  With nothing cool/sexy/freaky that I could see (maybe I was missing something) and a whole bunch of pathetic pathetics doing pathetic.  Oh boy, I am glad I am not exposed to that scene anymore, and happy that it faded away.

Quote from: Teazia;826081Goth/WOD/Sex/Bondage Con

am i missing something here or is that a very odd combination

Quote from: Teazia;826081WOD peaked with The Matrix.

It crashed with The Matrix 2.

It died with The Matrix 3.

It was buried again and again by Underworld 2,3,4,...

All of that being said, I was at a Comic convention in ATL back in 00-01 that had a sister Goth/WOD/Sex/Bondage Con going on nearby.  My artists friends and I (one or two were WW artists) went over to the Goth con on the Saturday night.  Let me tell you, the Goth con was a complete and utter disgrace on every level imaginable.  With nothing cool/sexy/freaky that I could see (maybe I was missing something) and a whole bunch of pathetic pathetics doing pathetic.  Oh boy, I am glad I am not exposed to that scene anymore, and happy that it faded away.

Sounds like they did something very wrong. But the Con sounds like it was all over the place and non-committal. Also, something about lots of heavy black and/or latex in Atlanta humidity just sounds... unappealing.

However plenty of goths are still around in the SF Bay Area. The "elders" (snort!) are retiring to gingerbread Victorians and having children, a la Addams Family. But then the weather is so much more accommodating, too.

And San Francisco definitely knows a thing or two about 'cool/sexy/freaky' (like don't have a Con like that in the first place, do an exotica-erotica ball instead). Maybe Atlanta just had way too many ingénue flooding in trying too hard. I mean, it was next to a comic convention!
:p

Quote from: tuypo1;826090am i missing something here or is that a very odd combination

Not in WoD...

Quote from: 3rik;826115Not in WoD...

Do you know something I don't know?

Quote from: trechriron;826064Yeah, yeah but what about the NEEDED angst? What did you do with that?

Tied it up in a canvas sack and threw it off the bridge.  After that, no one seemed to need angst any more.  ;)

Quote from: DMK;826180Tied it up in a canvas sack and threw it off the bridge.  After that, no one seemed to need angst any more.  ;)

Good show.

Quote from: Teazia;826075Is this at the old Komics Kastle or the old Comics Plus?  I may or may not have lived in you neck of the woods back in the 90s.

When I tried the LARP, it was already 2000, maybe 2001. I'd rather not name names because I just don't think that'd be polite, especially since my experiences weren't good and I don't think any of them are here to give their POV. I recall at the time that there were at least 3 LARPs being run in Macon through the official channels(Camarilla, I think). But I only tried the one a couple of coworkers invited me to.

True story: Comics Plus is the store I got my GURPS 3rd Edition Basic Set Revised book from back in '96. It was the first RPG product that didn't disappear on me. I had an AD&D 2nd Edition player's guide before that, but it disappeared one day. I don't know if I misplaced it, or if my mom threw it out. She had some misgivings about grown boys playing make-believe.

Quote from: trechriron;826194Good show.

Again, here I am in the middle of two extremes.

ok, read the whole thread and a couple things.
1) what is TPB?
2) magnetic fingertip implants, I think they are kinda neat, and I want one.  if I could find a place in town that did it I'd probably get one.  not because I'm edgy or cool, but because I think the idea of them is cool.
3) anti-vaxxers. I am completely 100% behind this.  I had to use the VMS computer system in college, and let me tell you anyone who has had to use one of those will be anti VAX.  (or is there a different vax you are talking about?)

that being said.

fan base.  well.
Vampire: prior to going to college I had read about the new (at the time) Vampire RPG that had come out, one of my friends knew some people who played it. So we went to the meeting, this was an initial meet up, before actual play started.  We chat and talk about our ideas for characters, and only one guy in the group has a copy of the rules, and is not letting anyone look at them.
then after about an hour or so he says, "ok sounds like a good group. let's do this." and we all agree.
then he pulls out a knife and bowl and says , now we are all going to cut our hands, bleed into a bowl, let the blood mix, and everyone takes a drink."
the only there wasn't a me shaped hole in the wall was because my friend got out before I did.

it was a year or so before I actually got to read the book and know that wasn't actually part of the game. (despite the GMs insistence otherwise)

d20 Star Wars (silver spine edition): was invited, along with a couple of others to be in a new group.  set up was easy, we were new to the rebellion, and were going to be the squad that stole the Death Star plans.  no jedi allowed. was going to be a simple hack and slash to get a feel for combat. the guys I went with kept pulling the "we are the Pros from Dover" and telling the GM how he should run the game. how rather then us killing stormtroopers left and right, we should be sneaking around.  We were not invited back. (them for their behavior, me because I got a ride from them)

D&D: have been told by many MANY people that if I am in a hack and slash game I'm playing the game wrong. One of these people who said that actually said "I've played Tekumel with Barker as GM, so I think I know what I'm talking about."  (I have since talked to people from that particular group who all said he was an idiot)

Rifts: I have had 1 friend from college who told me about the campaign he was in, that made me want to play the game.  then he put the story of the campaign up on the newly formed world wide web. no references to any Rifts IP other then a "this is the system we are using".  Kevin S sued him.
(oh wait you said fan base not creators.  my bad.)

The baning place rpg.net so named because they ban people all the time for stupid shit

I wouldn't get a magnet in my finger but i have always liked the idea of getting some storage space installed in my thumb with a usb connector with a fake top of thumb as a cap. I would want the cut to be before above the joint so i would still have full movement of my thumb though. But i think thats as far as i would go unless i had lost a limb anyway

anti vaxers are idiots who refuse to let there children be vaccinated against serious dieseses because they stupidly think there children will get sick from the vaccine.

Also jeez i never realized kevin was so unhinged

Quote from: remial;827309D&D: have been told by many MANY people that if I am in a hack and slash game I'm playing the game wrong. One of these people who said that actually said "I've played Tekumel with Barker as GM, so I think I know what I'm talking about."  (I have since talked to people from that particular group who all said he was an idiot)

:)

I gamed with Barker as GM (for over a decade) so I think I know what I'm talking about - and you are entirely correct!

The Professor could do hack-and-slash with the best of them, and those games were some of the very best we ever had with him. He'd get on a roll, and we'd be fighting for our lives - it'd be just as hack-and-slash as Dave Arneson's "Blackmoor"; Dave felt very strongly that if he hadn't killed off half the players in the first half hour of the game session, he'd failed as a GM.

Sure, Phil liked to do a lot of cultural stuff, but the adventures were the thing when we got started in the 1970s and through the 1980s. The heavy emphasis in the middle 1990s and very early 2000s on the 'Secret Insider Information' aspect and the 'Serious Cultural Immersion / Language Camp' aspects didn't have any traction with us; Phil, in my experience, was very much at home in his favorite genre of 'Sword-and-Planet Romance', where there was lots of swashbuckling and derring-do. (If you want to know what Phil was thinking, read the "Barsoom" novels.)

But then, people used to complain to the Professor that he was "doing Tekumel wrong", and he should really get a grip on what Tekumel was really all about...

And people wonder why I don't go to conventions, and call me a "secretive hermit"; Gary Con was the first convention (of any kind) I've been to and GM'd at in decades, and it was hugely enjoyable - very skilled, very mature players who gave me the fight of my life. :)

Quote from: remial;827309fan base.  well.
Vampire: prior to going to college I had read about the new (at the time) Vampire RPG that had come out, one of my friends knew some people who played it. So we went to the meeting, this was an initial meet up, before actual play started.  We chat and talk about our ideas for characters, and only one guy in the group has a copy of the rules, and is not letting anyone look at them.
then after about an hour or so he says, "ok sounds like a good group. let's do this." and we all agree.
then he pulls out a knife and bowl and says , now we are all going to cut our hands, bleed into a bowl, let the blood mix, and everyone takes a drink."
the only there wasn't a me shaped hole in the wall was because my friend got out before I did.

Sweet zombie Jebus...

Quote from: remial;827309D&D: have been told by many MANY people that if I am in a hack and slash game I'm playing the game wrong. One of these people who said that actually said "I've played Tekumel with Barker as GM, so I think I know what I'm talking about."  (I have since talked to people from that particular group who all said he was an idiot)

I think you are playing it right. And that's why I don't have much interest in D&D.

On a semi-related note, which fanbases are most and least likely to overlap with the aggressive SJW contingent that has such a voice at TBP?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;828149On a semi-related note, which fanbases are most and least likely to overlap with the aggressive SJW contingent that has such a voice at TBP?

Blue Rose fans?

Exalted fans and often Storyteller fans over all.

Yes. It's a big reason why I GM. I mean I love Mage the Awakening but the fan base and Onyx Path...not so much.

Quote from: Opaopajr;826114Sounds like they did something very wrong. But the Con sounds like it was all over the place and non-committal. Also, something about lots of heavy black and/or latex in Atlanta humidity just sounds... unappealing.

However plenty of goths are still around in the SF Bay Area. The "elders" (snort!) are retiring to gingerbread Victorians and having children, a la Addams Family. But then the weather is so much more accommodating, too.

And San Francisco definitely knows a thing or two about 'cool/sexy/freaky' (like don't have a Con like that in the first place, do an exotica-erotica ball instead). Maybe Atlanta just had way too many ingénue flooding in trying too hard. I mean, it was next to a comic convention!
:p

I miss the Erotic/Exotic Ball. I didn't know you live in San Francisco. That's were I was born and my hometown. Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia has a strong goth movement also. You may have something in thinking the weather accommodates it quite nicely.

Hoo boy, I was hoping to not get into this again, but...

Quote from: Omega;825076The 3e fans did not turn into the online rabid pack the 4e ones did.

Yes they did.  What do you think the whole Pathfinder deal was?  Paizo got kicked out of the D&D clubhouse when their contract with Dragon and Dungeon was up (so the fans of the time said) and so they decided to reprint the 3.x stuff and rename it Pathfinder.

The amount of people praising this move, even so far as yes, calling it 'The Second Coming of D&D'.  Seriously, there were fans who said this.  This was months before anything about the 4e system was ever detailed.  No one knew what 4e was going to be.  And yet, there were cries ans screams about how it would suck, and at least Paizo was there to 'save' D&D and other such nonsense.

So yes, both 3e and 4e fans were EQUALLY as bad as the other.  


Here's something though, I'm pretty sure everyone hear has actually experienced to some degree what Nexus described.  Especially with D&D over the years.

I mean, we ALL know about how 'stupid' Paladins are right?  How they're ALL self-righteous game breakers with Lawful-Stupid alignments?  Or how all Kender characters turn players into party breaking, friendship destroying kleptomaniacs?

Stories like these and now with the advent of the internet, seep into gamer consciousness, and sometimes it only affects a small part of the game, but it informs the gamer's perception of it.  Like the aforementioned Paladin/Stick In The Mud perception, everyone has these stories, sometimes they even played with people who played it like that.  But how much of that was them, or them playing the class in a way that was 'expected'.

The turn off of games is just a wider, harder incident of these little anecdotes.

For me, it was anything Diceless (namely Amber) or White Wolf.  It was hard living with roommates who were so pretentious, and unwilling to consider anything outside of their little scope.  The fact that they used the rules against people they didn't like (Lucky for me, I was never in any of their games.)  Still, mental association is a powerful thing.

Its really not fair to say that pathfinder just reprinted the rules there was far to much changed

BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY IS A LIE.

Quote from: tuypo1;828237Its really not fair to say that pathfinder just reprinted the rules there was far to much changed

BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY IS A LIE.

A fair point, but a lot of the core systems were just reprinted.  Before they corrected it, for example, the (Tasha's) Hideous Laughter used to be confusing because they had kept the old wording, and added a chunk about how to resist it.

It needed reworking, and it took a couple of printings to do so, but they did it.

To be totally fair, the more they add to the system (as in source books), the more they change the system from it's base roots.  In fact, there's a lot of 4e in Pathfinder now.  Not in terms of actual power structure, but ideas that 4e tried to put forth in it's tenure.

Hero system community (online).

Two types: highly geeky, UNIX admin types who are helpful and friendly, and highly geeky UNIX admin types who are rude and unfriendly. The first type are great to sort out your rules problems or whatever, but there's no discussion of actual gameplay or cool stuff apart from rules minutiae. The second type are quite prominent.

Back in the day I played Hero as a fun game that was maybe a little rulesy. These days I wonder if anyone still plays it with the rules more-or-less in the background.

I realized the other day what it is exactly that upsets me so much about Pathfinder.

it isn't the rehash of older material and the claim that it is 'innovative' but that is part of it.

it isn't the fan base, who, if you point out a legitimate flaw in the system tend to attack you like a rabid animal.  (I was banned from a chat room after asking for rules clarification on one such flaw, official reason was 'trolling')

it is that Paizo is pulling the same shit that TSR did back in the 80s before their collapse.

Example. The local Barnes and Noble has about 12 feet of shelf space for RPGs, down from 48 feet as little as 5 years ago.
on its shelves are 1 copy of Edge of the Empire, 1 copy of Only War for W40K, 1 copy each of the reprint of the 1st ed AD&D books, and 1 copy of the Shadowrun 5th ed core book.    then there is 3 copies of the 5th ed D&D player's guide, 4 of the DMG and 2 of the monster book, and 1 copy of the 2 adventure books (we don't have princes of the apocalypse yet). and 3 copies of the book Of Dice and Men
that is about 1.5 feet- 2 feet of shelf space there. the rest is all pathfinder.
when I've ordered other books from them and asked if they would have any other copies, I've been told that they don't have the room.

on an aside, you have no idea how difficult it is for me not to comment on TBP's thread about the Extreme leftist villain organization to just say "if you really want a good example, check out the ops here on TBP"

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;828149On a semi-related note, which fanbases are most and least likely to overlap with the aggressive SJW contingent that has such a voice at TBP?

Blue Rose, storygames, Storyteller games, but 1st and foremost, *World games.

Quote from: The Ent;828697Blue Rose, storygames, Storyteller games, but 1st and foremost, *World games.

It's actually funny, because the guy that got me into *World is about as far from SJW as you can imagine (without, ya know, being a jackass).

Quote from: robiswrong;828752It's actually funny, because the guy that got me into *World is about as far from SJW as you can imagine (without, ya know, being a jackass).

I wouldn't doubt it. I'm pretty sure that some(maybe even most) of the people I play *World games with would fit into the SJW camp if I bothered to talk politics with them. As is, I've gotten pretty good at giving a noncommittal grunt followed by a redirection back to a topic of mutual interest(gaming, TV shows, etc.) when that stuff comes up.

Earthdawn - one of my favorite fantasy RPGs the setting is central and eastern europe, the world is on the down swing of the magic cycle, everyone is coming out of the caves they went and hid in when the demons (oh wait, TSR got in a lot of trouble with demons, so let's call ours Horrors) ravaged the landscape.
so it is a post apocalyptic fantasy game with fairly high magic, lots of lost civilizations, monsters, and plenty of room for PCs to make a name for themselves.

The guy who ran the game for our group the first three times we played it railroaded us through every published adventure, would yell at us if we tried to deviate in the slightest, and would tell us we were playing our characters wrong if we did something he didn't expect.
many of the adventures had write ups for creatures, but he would usually say "oh this is going to be easy for you" and make the creatures tougher, and then be surprised when he was looking at a TPK after the first round of combat.
then he would yell at us because it was OUR fault that he had to cheat to keep us alive.

Gaming in general - I don't know what it is, but I've been in 1 group where one guy was arrested (turned himself in) for raping his pre-teen step daughter (the judge wanted to give him the minimum sentence as this was his first crime ever (not even a parking ticket) but he insisted that he get the maximum. the theory of most of the group is that he did this because we all saw ourselves as her uncles, having known her since birth, and were very protective of her.) I was in another group where one guy was caught in an FBI sting and was arrested for 37 counts of child pornography (he is still in prison AFAIK, he defended himself in court and claimed this was a First Amendment issue).  In that same group 2 others were questioned after a break in at their apartment uncovered several pieces of child porn while they were out of town at a 'hobby convention'.

I have since said that if one more person I game with gets busted for a sex crime involving children I'm taking up a new hobby.

Quote from: remial;828782I have since said that if one more person I game with gets busted for a sex crime involving children I'm taking up a new hobby.

Holy moly I don't blame you. Hoping your experience was a bit of an outlier there.

Quote from: remial;828782Earthdawn - one of my favorite fantasy RPGs the setting is central and eastern europe, the world is on the down swing of the magic cycle, everyone is coming out of the caves they went and hid in when the demons (oh wait, TSR got in a lot of trouble with demons, so let's call ours Horrors) ravaged the landscape.
so it is a post apocalyptic fantasy game with fairly high magic, lots of lost civilizations, monsters, and plenty of room for PCs to make a name for themselves.

The guy who ran the game for our group the first three times we played it railroaded us through every published adventure, would yell at us if we tried to deviate in the slightest, and would tell us we were playing our characters wrong if we did something he didn't expect.
many of the adventures had write ups for creatures, but he would usually say "oh this is going to be easy for you" and make the creatures tougher, and then be surprised when he was looking at a TPK after the first round of combat.
then he would yell at us because it was OUR fault that he had to cheat to keep us alive.

Gaming in general - I don't know what it is, but I've been in 1 group where one guy was arrested (turned himself in) for raping his pre-teen step daughter (the judge wanted to give him the minimum sentence as this was his first crime ever (not even a parking ticket) but he insisted that he get the maximum. the theory of most of the group is that he did this because we all saw ourselves as her uncles, having known her since birth, and were very protective of her.) I was in another group where one guy was caught in an FBI sting and was arrested for 37 counts of child pornography (he is still in prison AFAIK, he defended himself in court and claimed this was a First Amendment issue).  In that same group 2 others were questioned after a break in at their apartment uncovered several pieces of child porn while they were out of town at a 'hobby convention'.

I have since said that if one more person I game with gets busted for a sex crime involving children I'm taking up a new hobby.

im glad im not going to have to deal with that shit all the pedophiles im friends with have the willpower to keep it in there pants.

im more worried about my group members being busted for piracy because holy shit how can they be such massive pirates

I have to say you guys are creeping me out now.

Quote from: Bren;828793I have to say you guys are creeping me out now.

You're not fucking kidding.

remial has too many odd stories for it to be true, so i can only presume trolling, and not amusing trolling at that.

I'm going to presume that tuypo1 was joking (even though it's not remotely a joking matter) and not ban his worthless arse.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;828774I wouldn't doubt it. I'm pretty sure that some(maybe even most) of the people I play *World games with would fit into the SJW camp if I bothered to talk politics with them. As is, I've gotten pretty good at giving a noncommittal grunt followed by a redirection back to a topic of mutual interest(gaming, TV shows, etc.) when that stuff comes up.

I used to regularly interact with a * World designer whom I admired for his work and advice. I only ever talked with him about games and rules and he was awesome.

One day however I found out that he had another side: a rather aggressive "SJW"* presence on social media. His behavior was enough for me to stop following him, 'cause if he ever found out who else I am e-Friends with on Google+, he'd probably start giving me shit. Well, also because I felt that he was kind of a bully. It was like he had a split-personality.

* I'm always reluctant to use that term because it seems to spark up about as much negative attention and emotion as you-know-what-gate.

Quote from: Necrozius;828805I used to regularly interact with a * World designer whom I admired for his work and advice. I only ever talked with him about games and rules and he was awesome.

One day however I found out that he had another side: a rather aggressive "SJW"* presence on social media. His behavior was enough for me to stop following him, 'cause if he ever found out who else I am e-Friends with on Google+, he'd probably start giving me shit. Well, also because I felt that he was kind of a bully. It was like he had a split-personality.

* I'm always reluctant to use that term because it seems to spark up about as much negative attention and emotion as you-know-what-gate.

Is * World mean Dungeon World? And are you talking about Jonathan Tweet?

Quote from: One Horse Town;828796You're not fucking kidding.

remial has too many odd stories for it to be true, so i can only presume trolling, and not amusing trolling at that.

I'm going to presume that tuypo1 was joking (even though it's not remotely a joking matter) and not ban his worthless arse.

Nuke 'em from orbit...only way to be sure.

All I'm going to say is that you Metzner fanatics (and you know who you are) have made certain that I will never give up my Moldvay.  Jerks.

Quote from: cavalier973;828865All I'm going to say is that you Metzner fanatics (and you know who you are) have made certain that I will never give up my Moldvay.  Jerks.

I missed this? What were they doing? Other than what at times feels like incessant bitching about the art in the Cyclopedia?

Mentzer fans raped and murdered my sister, shot my dog, and stole my DMG.

Quote from: Ulairi;828857Is * World mean Dungeon World? And are you talking about Jonathan Tweet?

Yeah Dungeon World. But no, someone else.

Quote from: Omega;828866I missed this? What were they doing? Other than what at times feels like incessant bitching about the art in the Cyclopedia?

Don't even get me started on the "Rules Cyclopedinoids"...









****Actually, I just recently purchased the B/X sets off dndclassics, and the Rules Cyclopedia as well. I plan to get these printed when I have the funds, and then play it with my kids at some point. I'm a little bummed that the Metzner copy has been split into two parts (Player Guide and DM Guide) on the site, and that the ECMI sets are not yet available.

For the record, I'm one of those 4rons/4vengers *pause to stifle villainous laugh*, and still really like D&D 4th Edition, but I'm trying to see if the Basic D&D would be quicker to run.

Quote from: Omega;828866I missed this? What were they doing? Other than what at times feels like incessant bitching about the art in the Cyclopedia?

Well compared to the BECMI art the Cyclopedia art does blow...

IT IS KNOWN.

Quote from: The Ent;828875Well compared to the BECMI art the Cyclopedia art does blow...

IT IS KNOWN.

It is known.

Quote from: One Horse Town;828796remial has too many odd stories for it to be true, so i can only presume trolling, and not amusing trolling at that.

god I wish I were joking or trolling.
the guy who raped his step-daughter, R, did so because he thought his wife, W, was having an affair with the girl's father B. B and R had been friends growing up in West Virginia, and R met W when she went with B to the WV area for spring break.  After the girl was born B and W broke up, but R and W had kept in touch, fell in love and he moved out to South Dakota to be with her. B joined the army, and would come and visit when he was on leave.
R got jealous and raped the little girl.
She started acting out in school, a teacher asked if something was going on at home, and she told the teacher. R never tried to deny it, just admitted it. the police told him not to leave town, and they would arrest him the next day, something about needing 24 hours to bring him up on charges.

Most of the group knew B and W, I met them when I was in college and was for a time B's roommate, which meant that W was my roommate as well.

None of us knew what was going on with R and the girl, because we were all friends, and you don't want to think that your friend is a monster.  Especially one who has the most normal life of any of us.  He had the wife, kids, a good job, social skills, etc.

as for my stories sounding strange, I've been gaming for 30 years or so, my first session was when I was 8 or so, and my babysitter had taken me, my brother and her daughters over to the neighbors while she had coffee with her friend.  All us kids were playing school, because the oldest daughter was older then anyone else, so she got to decide what we did. (this didn't make sense to me at the time, and still doesn't) During "recess" we played hide and seek, I went inside to go to the bathroom and saw the neighbor's 13 year old son playing D&D with his friend. I asked if I could watch, they asked what I was doing, and after I explained, they took pity on me and said that if I were quiet, I could sit and watch.
After about 20 minutes I pointed out where I thought there might be a secret door on the map, the friend made a roll, and sure enough there was. The GM made me create a character (a thief with a silver dagger and leather armor basic D&D) in about 5 minutes and I got hooked. about an hour later, the adults found me downstairs, after the kids started worrying about how no one could find me.
After that the neighbor came over to the babysitter's house.

(sorry went off on a tangent)

my point is that I have been gaming for most of my life, I think we all have weird stories.  I live in a fairly small town in a fly over state.  the local RPG community is not that large, and being isolated from larger communities we are probably weirder then gamers in the big cities.  (Cow tipping?  real thing.  cows don't tip, but drunks still try to do it)

I will also admit that I have crappy social skills, and don't have the best ability to tell what is acceptable to talk about in public or not. But I believe in honesty. and will tell the truth even if it bites me in the ass.

I won't name names, but if you want more info, or want to ask questions by all means PM me.

I really doubt anyone wants all that much more info about your pedo gamer buddies of years gone by, no.

Quote from: remial;828915my point is that I have been gaming for most of my life, I think we all have weird stories.

Not that weird.

Quote from: TristramEvans;828943Not that weird.

This. I've gamed with people lacking in either socail skills or hygeine, or both, but that's as far as it's gone.  No pedoes, or anything like that.

And as much as that sort of thing is prevalent on the net, I sometimes wonder if I'm the minority of gamers...

Quote from: One Horse Town;828796remial has too many odd stories for it to be true, so i can only presume trolling, and not amusing trolling at that.

That reminds me of the time I responded to an ad at my local game shop. Normally I wouldn't do that kind of thing, but I was a huge fan of AD&D but I could never find a group. Basically nobody was playing AD&D back then, of course. (This was back in the '90s.)

Anyway, when I got there they were playing in the basement of this guy's mother's house. It was a little weird and creepy and there was this one guy just kind of sitting in the corner picking his own nose. But whatever.

And then -- holy cow! Bill Clinton showed up! He was the guy running the game! We were playing in this guy's basement because the President was worried his geekery wouldn't play well on the campaign trail, so he'd sneak out of the White House and come over to this guy's house to run AD&D.

Things were okay for awhile, but then things went south. Billy stole my girlfriend. (Did I mention I was dating Monica Lewinski at the time?) And the weird guy picking his nose turned out Jeffrey Dahmer. He'd faked his own death, of course, which was a really cool story I can tell y'all about later. But he ate my sister and that really soured our relationship, particularly when everybody else in the group took his side. And then Bob, who I don't think I've mentioned yet, revealed he was actually an Elder Thing wearing a human suit. Which was fine, except he would just NOT shut up about how awesome THAC0 is.

So that's why I don't play AD&D any more. The fans, man. They're just terrible.

Quote from: Critias;828931I really doubt anyone wants all that much more info about your pedo gamer buddies of years gone by, no.

Quite right. I'm closing this thread and have been informed to warn both remial and tuypo1 that we won't tolerate their pedo-hour stories. Either one of them mention this sort of thing on this site again and they are gone. Fair warning.