Quote from: Omega;1054061Agreed. Sometimes due to mistakes or omissions, or just plain lazy writing, in a book you have to do this even.

d20m Gamma World is still the posterchild for all of the above.

Personal opinion:  Most of White Wolf's Storyteller games.

Quote from: CRKrueger;10540595e's a weird duck as far as that goal goes.  On the one hand, they do say "Up to the GM", "GM is ultimate arbiter" etc all over the place and include options and tweaks.  On the other hand, it's a WotC product, so all the characters are exception-based widget decks with specific wording and exact meanings.

True. But you can still apply those widgets creatively in many cases. Or the DM can rule that something works a little differently at their table. Case in point one DM rules that the Shield Master feat was a little lackluster and so folded in some of the playtest rules. And added back in the playtest feats allowing non-casters to pick up higher level spells. Or allowing someone to apply their Monk Flurry of Blows to do a high speed shell game trick. and so on.

As allways it depends totally on how flexible the DM and players are.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054065Personal opinion:  Most of White Wolf's Storyteller games.

Well d20m GW is a WW game... :rolleyes:

eh. I really like Aberrant and it plays pretty good. Trinity seemed ok overall. I never had any problems with Wraith either. But then a-lot of my exposure to WW games was early editions before things started going really downhill.

Quote from: CRKrueger;10540595e's a weird duck as far as that goal goes.  On the one hand, they do say "Up to the GM", "GM is ultimate arbiter" etc all over the place and include options and tweaks.  On the other hand, it's a WotC product, so all the characters are exception-based widget decks with specific wording and exact meanings.

They do leave a lot of things deliberately unstated, so the GM can fill in the blank.

For instance I was killing myself when I first started trying to figure out what to do when a player just decided to never sleep -- there was no rule for what to do. In the end I made my own.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054130They do leave a lot of things deliberately unstated, so the GM can fill in the blank.

For instance I was killing myself when I first started trying to figure out what to do when a player just decided to never sleep -- there was no rule for what to do. In the end I made my own.

Yeah I think they got so tired of answering that question they finally addressed it in Xanathar's.  I'd have thought it'd be an easy one (probably they thought so too) but not everyone is used to making rulings.

Quote from: KingCheops;1054135Yeah I think they got so tired of answering that question they finally addressed it in Xanathar's.  I'd have thought it'd be an easy one (probably they thought so too) but not everyone is used to making rulings.

Yeah it was nice to see them acknowledge something I was stumped by for so long. But by then I already had my own answer (automatic rank of Exhaustion, no save) that I stuck with mine.

Sleeping in armor was another one.

I was under the assumption that someone who doesn't sleep gets afflicted with the exhaustion rules...  That's what I've always done, until/unless the player gets a power that allows to bypass that.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054137Sleeping in armor was another one.

Have to say that is a stupid the perpetuate a misconception about sleeping in armor. Sleeping in well fitted armor (heavy, medium, or light) is no different than sleeping in bulky clothes and with time one gets used to it. What far more realistic is imposing disadvantage on any type of social check due to the BO after a few days of doing this.

Quote from: estar;1054143Have to say that is a stupid the perpetuate a misconception about sleeping in armor. Sleeping in well fitted armor (heavy, medium, or light) is no different than sleeping in bulky clothes and with time one gets used to it. What far more realistic is imposing disadvantage on any type of social check due to the BO after a few days of doing this.

See, that was my problem. Since the rules said nothing, I had to do research. But for every person that said it would be a handicap, another person said it would not. It is a contentious debate.

In the end, I decided to make it a handicap -- if you slept with medium or heavy armor on, you could not regain hit points or hit dice or remove Exhaustion ranks, but you could complete the rest of a Long Rest.

With Xanathar's WOTC finally spoke on the issue, and made roughly the same penalty.

Id base it on the type of armour and the fit of it. Some armours are going to be easy to sleep in due to their flexibility. Others will be less so. Id suspect elven armours to be assembled with an eye for that if need be. Dwarves might not even care at all. That can be a way to distinguish a demi race too. Dwarves and Half Orcs might be able to sleep wherever while Elves and Halflings are much more picky or even easily disturbed. While Gnomes and Humans are dead average and who knows what bugs a Dragonborn or Tiefling.

But also depends on the PC. In I think 2e they introduced a perk you could acquire which was essentially the knack for sleeping in armour.

It's the goodrightfun direction, but there is a lot of past to detox. And already the online community is pushing back with slavish devotion for more papal bulls & ex cathedra. But how much of that online cadre is more AL or Char Op Minigame devotees is another discussion entirely.

As for armor, whatever your table decides. I was just glad that ToTA had some discussion about armor and weather. I wish they went further and discussed scrolls and spellbooks in weather, too... But I know magic spells are WotC's "precious" and nary a restriction will hamper for long their beloved.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054147See, that was my problem. Since the rules said nothing, I had to do research. But for every person that said it would be a handicap, another person said it would not. It is a contentious debate.

Well the thing is I slept in armor, a variety of armor, (full plate, chain, coast of plates, and hard leader). One major issue with comfort is your inner clothes or lining. Change them regularly then the sweat and BO is kept to a minimum. Keep in mind that armor has straps anybody who want to survive is going to take the time to adjust everything until it is snug and doesn't flop around. With chain it is about ties and belts.

The downside of armor is that given the same level of endurance the person wearing armor isn't going to last as long due to carrying the extra weight. For example Plate is better than Chain in that plate distributes the weight across the body while chain hangs off of pressure points like the top of your head or your shoulder. Proper belting can help with that by removing the lower part of the chain torso from your shoulder it still tires you out quicker than the equivalent amount of plate.

This isn't secondhand information but what I experienced personally over 15 years of playing SCA and LARPS.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054147In the end, I decided to make it a handicap -- if you slept with medium or heavy armor on, you could not regain hit points or hit dice or remove Exhaustion ranks, but you could complete the rest of a Long Rest.

With Xanathar's WOTC finally spoke on the issue, and made roughly the same penalty.

(shrug) Still their ruling is wrong in my campaign. In addition I run my campaign with an assumption that the character are competent unless there is another factor (like a low IQ or low Wisdom). So I assume that if they want to sleep with armor on that they change their undergarment and try to maintain a fresh set of clothes without them having to explicitly say they are doing this.

Quote from: Omega;1054152Id base it on the type of armour and the fit of it. Some armours are going to be easy to sleep in due to their flexibility.

All armor used in warfare is flexible otherwise their wearer will get killed. The inflexible heavy armor are the heavy thick reformation era armor used by the wealthy nobles in jousts so they won't die while playing around. They are not worn for battle.

[video=youtube;qzTwBQniLSc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc[/youtube]

It is possible to sleep in armor -- but was it just as comfortable? Don't you think it would wear you down over a while?

The thing I like about the penalty is, from a game perspective, it makes different kinds of armor matter more.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054194It is possible to sleep in armor -- but was it just as comfortable? Don't you think it would wear you down over a while?

At first it weird because you basically settle in only a few positions. Not typical of how I sleep. But I got quickly used to it. It wasn't anything was jabbing at me. Sometime I had to shift around a bit when outdoor to find a comfortable spot but then I do that when I am camping anyway.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054194The thing I like about the penalty is, from a game perspective, it makes different kinds of armor matter more.

I dunno, if I am going to add that kind of detail I would start imposing penalties anytime something involving exhaustion levels comes up. That the main effect of wearing armor all the time. You get tired faster otherwise you normally would. But then if you manage things properly and don't jack around running when you can rest then it is not a factor under normal circumstances.