Greetings!
I certainly do love high culture, grand civilization, high magic, and all the wondrous possibilities that such embraces. However, in my own Thandor Campaign, I have had to restrain myself. It seems to me, much like for the fantastical to hold wonder, it likewise must be comparatively *rare*. Thus, I have many border fortresses that are harsh, muddy things, jagged, wooden palisade walls, uneven shack-like towers, gates of timbers and basic iron bands. Nothing too complex or sophisticated.
The communities, likewise, must be kept simple, harsh, and brutal. Lots of mud in the streets, open sewers, garbage piles being burned out in the open, soot everywhere, lots of wood's smoke. Animals being slaughtered and gutted in the open air. Forget plumbing and sewer systems. Water must be fetched from a well, and brought in by the bucket, by the sweat of your brow, or the sweat of a slave. Food preparation is also harsh, and simple. Rough. This all of course means than such closely packed human communities are just bubbling with horrid smells, fetid air, and lots of germs and disease. Shit and mud-covered peasants and slaves everywhere.
Keep modern cleanliness, and effortless labour for everything far away from the normal campaign. Make the players always dirty and smelly, and sweating for everything. Often cold and wet. It's always some horrid extreme of one kind or another. *Comfort* itself, *Convenience* is something they must achieve by hard efforts on their own, or through the use of slaves. Otherwise, life is full of hard work, sweating, and discomfort and struggle of all kinds, every fucking day.
These kinds of constants I have found have a dramatic impact on the player characters. It does help them get into *immersion* of being in a different mind-set, and out of the damned modernistic thinking. Interestingly, I have noticed that when the group has encountered Elves, and been embraced as guests in some luxurious, uber-Elven community--the players have a curiously medievalesque response, like in the myths, of being totally blown away, amazed, and enchanted. They don't want to return to living in gross, brutal human communities!:D It's funny, and fun, in highlighting such differences. It certainly makes their time spent visiting some Elven kingdom a cherished memory, and something they eagerly look forward to returning to in their journeys!
Beyond that, though, I think having a Dark Ages, brutal and harsh milieu provides a strong background foundation from which to base your campaigns. However, for it to really work though, the DM has to be relentless, and maintain it over time. You can't just showcase it for the opening session, and then rapidly segue into a Disney-fied medieval Europe. It's work and consciousness, to keep that environment constant and always present. That keeps the players also grounded in an "other thinking" instead of always walking around in their Disney-fied, Seattle 2020 mindset. It also makes for the exceptions in your campaigns to be really special and interesting, whether such are trips to elven kingdoms, great dwarven cities, Fantasy Rome, or some great and majestic cities of the East.
I also enjoy such rough foundations, because it allows you, the DM, to control things easier. Weapons, technology, plate armour, siege engines, warships, all kinds of things. You can introduce elements slower, more incrementally, instead of having a Forgotten Realms buffet where everything is available everywhere, and there are magic Walmarts in every neighborhood, and it seems like even life within smaller towns is much like the urban centers of Seattle 2020 Waterdeep or whatever. Such places seem right in line with our own modern metropolises. Some things I keep in mind in running my own campaigns to make them not like the modern world. I also play specific genres of world, period and cultural music to help everyone get into a different mind set. Slowly, gradually, I have seen progress in people's thinking. They seem a bit better equipped to approach problems and issues *differently*, if not always entirely from an ancient or medieval point of view, at least something that is a healthy mixture of good thinking that is different from this kind of pervasive modernistic thinking. That's really one of my little side-ambitions. A whole cloth ancient or medieval view is of course not possible, but mixing in some differences from our own modernistic thinking is certainly possible, and enjoyable.
Cheers my friends!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Excellent Shark! Awesome in fact, I like that kind of gaming. Especially for beginners, it gets them in the proper frame of mind. You should claim that trademark before someone else does, "Dark Ages Authentic™" brought to you by Shark.
There were certainly grimy elements to the dark ages (and the middle ages), but it wasn't all grimy, you know.
While I think that description is very Simulationist and one I personally like, I have found most players want the "Disney" version.
You must be pretty lucky to find players that thrive on such. That can leave a mark on the game just by introducing drainage and soap.
I've lived in the Philippines for most of the past 8+ years. If I am looking to describe the true medieval experience, I can normally just describe any number of villages and/or slum areas near where I live. Water from a well? Exposed sewage? Weird little shrines? Rumours of monsters? Houses built from scrap timber? Yes to all of these, and more.
My players aren't in the Philippines. They don't know the source of my descriptions.
Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1118672I've lived in the Philippines for most of the past 8+ years. If I am looking to describe the true medieval experience, I can normally just describe any number of villages and/or slum areas near where I live. Water from a well? Exposed sewage? Weird little shrines? Rumours of monsters? Houses built from scrap timber? Yes to all of these, and more.
My players aren't in the Philippines. They don't know the source of my descriptions.
Ahh! The good 'ol days.
It's funny you bring this up - because I look back on all these elements to inform my own "Dark Ages" style "gritty" games. LITERALLY everything you describe is my childhood references.
And it's basically because that's how people lived. Like Pundit said, the Dark Ages were gritty, but it wasn't always gritty. Certainly less so now, in third world countries, but it depends. I think the reason why a lot of D&D players like the Disney-version is because they've been taught sub-consiously simply by living here in America/Europe to abhor what they consider extreme poverty. When to those living in it, or on its periphery - that's just life.
But living in that manner produces a lot of stuff that gamers today consider "adventure" by dint of the modern conveniences they take for granted. My uncles used to go out and "catch" dinner. We'd cook outside over open pits - my auntie farmed (and now my cousins STILL farm) pigs which they butcher right there in the "backyard". Water came from a well. Chickens, small garden, little bit of foraging - Not too different from "Ye Goode Olde Dayse" in a medieval society.
But all the folklore and supersition you'd have in European Dark Ages are very much part of the third-world consciousness. There is a LOT to pull from, even if you wanna Disney-fy it, to give some "verisimilitude" to the conceits of living in that era that you can find right now. Even in part of the US (and I'm sure in rural Europe).
@Scrivener - have you seen... THE LADY IN WHITE? There have been a couple of filipino/Malay folklore monsters that have made it into D&D like the Penanggalan - always a classic.
The primary "thing" about living in a predominantly agrarian fantasy world Dark Age is of course the danger-factor as prescribed by your setting conceits.
I mean you need to factor in available resources, climate, arable land, etc. Stuff most players *never* think about (nor should they) but you as the GM certainly should if you're sandboxing and want to give it that "feel".
In a European-style Temperate climate, while everyday necessities are similar to Scrivener's (and my own) sources we draw upon: the specifics are different because of the environment itself. Foraging in the Reikwald in Warhammer is a LOT different than foraging in a fantasy-Philippines equivalent Tropics. The supernatural elements alone will dictate a LOT of the grit-factor assuming they are prevalent in any real sense. Much less incursions from hostiles - be they human or otherwise.
I personally, even if I'm running the Realms, like to have my PC's discover all the sausage-making apparatus that allows kingdoms to operate. Yeah have them approach from downstream of the local river where they can smell the Tannery that provides all that sweet leather (which wasn't really used for "armor"). Nothing says civilization like huge vats of urine with skins and hides floating around in them wafting in your face after weeks in the field, covered with dirt, grime and the blood of your enemies, while sweating it back to the city. You haven't lived until you walk past the slaughter-house, or got stopped in your short-cut through the local hills by the local military because you've stumbled across a hidden goat-trail that leads to the Royal Smelting pits (or whatever). Where did you think all those gold pieces came from?
You can do gritty + Disney with just a bit of detail.
Quote from: tenbones;1118678The primary "thing" about living in a predominantly agrarian fantasy world Dark Age is of course the danger-factor as prescribed by your setting conceits.
I mean you need to factor in available resources, climate, arable land, etc. Stuff most players *never* think about (nor should they) but you as the GM certainly should if you're sandboxing and want to give it that "feel".
In a European-style Temperate climate, while everyday necessities are similar to Scrivener's (and my own) sources we draw upon: the specifics are different because of the environment itself. Foraging in the Reikwald in Warhammer is a LOT different than foraging in a fantasy-Philippines equivalent Tropics. The supernatural elements alone will dictate a LOT of the grit-factor assuming they are prevalent in any real sense. Much less incursions from hostiles - be they human or otherwise.
I personally, even if I'm running the Realms, like to have my PC's discover all the sausage-making apparatus that allows kingdoms to operate. Yeah have them approach from downstream of the local river where they can smell the Tannery that provides all that sweet leather (which wasn't really used for "armor"). Nothing says civilization like huge vats of urine with skins and hides floating around in them wafting in your face after weeks in the field, covered with dirt, grime and the blood of your enemies, while sweating it back to the city. You haven't lived until you walk past the slaughter-house, or got stopped in your short-cut through the local hills by the local military because you've stumbled across a hidden goat-trail that leads to the Royal Smelting pits (or whatever). Where did you think all those gold pieces came from?
You can do gritty + Disney with just a bit of detail.
One major challenge is to avoid "misery tourism", where the harsh and gritty elements hold the limelight without relief. They don't need to disappear completely, they simply need to fade into the background while adventure steps forward.
Quote from: RandyB;1118679One major challenge is to avoid "misery tourism", where the harsh and gritty elements hold the limelight without relief. They don't need to disappear completely, they simply need to fade into the background while adventure steps forward.
I'm not sure that's really necessary in Sandbox play? It's certainly an option - but everything is on the table (usually) in a sandbox.
The idea should be to illustrate the "hardship" AS NORMAL. It's an element of reality, to signal to the players who may/may not come from such conditions - *THIS* is the ground of living. What the PC's do about it, if anything, is on them. If a GM wants to go over the top with it and make it completely "unrealistically soul-crushing" without gameable options, they might well find their players not wanting to play in such circumstances. Or it may be an immature GM trying to be edgy for whatever reason.
I'm saying you CAN have you pie and eat it too. What is soul-crushing poverty to your average Seattle citizen is *everyday* life to others. That is gameable. It's not only gameable - it's fun because in its own way it divests you of your assumptions on what is "necessary" if the GM does it right. Now it shouldn't be taken as an example of "Because you can live like this - it's somehow noble", it's about what you via your character is willing to accept, because by and large, generally speaking, Adventurers *are* exceptional people.
Fixing those issues may seem insurmountable - but that's on the players to decide and the GM's capacity to answer that fundamental question in-game. I've had this very situation crop up where I lost a player because his attempts (ill conceived ones like trying to feed the hungry of the poor-quarter with a basket of 16-loaves of bread starting a riot. There were literally hundreds of starving people.) really dejected him because he felt his good intentions *should* have been sufficient (they were nowhere CLOSE - despite everyone in the party warning him of the outcome), as well as a few other situations like that. And yep - it's because he fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of living in such realities and WORSE - he didn't really want to engage with it on its own terms.
That's a big demarcation line for any campaign trying to emulate those realities. Sure we can Disneyland it up for real "tourists" of "fantasy". But Dark Ages style fantasy for some that want just a whiff of contextual "authenticity" has demands of its own. And that can be a big turnoff for players with unrealistic sensitivities or tastes.
TL/DR - "Misery Tourism" in gaming for me means - players who don't *really* want to engage with the realities of the setting conceits and would rather do so in unrealistic ways, vs. accepting it for what it is and being authentic in their reaction to it. And it may be disdainful, it may even be cruel - if that's what their characters are. It becomes touristy when the players themselves are "triggered" by it and play the cultural relativism card in and OUT of the game...
Quote from: tenbones;1118705I'm not sure that's really necessary in Sandbox play? It's certainly an option - but everything is on the table (usually) in a sandbox.
The idea should be to illustrate the "hardship" AS NORMAL. It's an element of reality, to signal to the players who may/may not come from such conditions - *THIS* is the ground of living. What the PC's do about it, if anything, is on them. If a GM wants to go over the top with it and make it completely "unrealistically soul-crushing" without gameable options, they might well find their players not wanting to play in such circumstances. Or it may be an immature GM trying to be edgy for whatever reason.
I'm saying you CAN have you pie and eat it too. What is soul-crushing poverty to your average Seattle citizen is *everyday* life to others. That is gameable. It's not only gameable - it's fun because in its own way it divests you of your assumptions on what is "necessary" if the GM does it right. Now it shouldn't be taken as an example of "Because you can live like this - it's somehow noble", it's about what you via your character is willing to accept, because by and large, generally speaking, Adventurers *are* exceptional people.
Fixing those issues may seem insurmountable - but that's on the players to decide and the GM's capacity to answer that fundamental question in-game. I've had this very situation crop up where I lost a player because his attempts (ill conceived ones like trying to feed the hungry of the poor-quarter with a basket of 16-loaves of bread starting a riot. There were literally hundreds of starving people.) really dejected him because he felt his good intentions *should* have been sufficient (they were nowhere CLOSE - despite everyone in the party warning him of the outcome), as well as a few other situations like that. And yep - it's because he fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of living in such realities and WORSE - he didn't really want to engage with it on its own terms.
That's a big demarcation line for any campaign trying to emulate those realities. Sure we can Disneyland it up for real "tourists" of "fantasy". But Dark Ages style fantasy for some that want just a whiff of contextual "authenticity" has demands of its own. And that can be a big turnoff for players with unrealistic sensitivities or tastes.
TL/DR - "Misery Tourism" in gaming for me means - players who don't *really* want to engage with the realities of the setting conceits and would rather do so in unrealistic ways, vs. accepting it for what it is and being authentic in their reaction to it. And it may be disdainful, it may even be cruel - if that's what their characters are. It becomes touristy when the players themselves are "triggered" by it and play the cultural relativism card in and OUT of the game...
I think you and I are basically in agreement, except in vocabulary. :) What I mean by "misery tourism" you nailed precisely as
Quote from: tenbones;1118705If a GM wants to go over the top with it and make it completely "unrealistically soul-crushing" without gameable options, they might well find their players not wanting to play in such circumstances. Or it may be an immature GM trying to be edgy for whatever reason.
The rest of your comments are excellent.
Quote from: RandyB;1118708I think you and I are basically in agreement, except in vocabulary. :) What I mean by "misery tourism" you nailed precisely as
The rest of your comments are excellent.
Ahh! Yeah I've played with GM's like that before... They're inversely naive about "gritty settings" for oddly similar reasons relating to never having "been there" and simply not giving it any thought. But you know, campaigns like that are hard to sustain when your GM's are not really able to make those conceits engaging, rather than just punishing for punishment's sake. They crash. Hopefully the GM learns.
This alludes to what Pundit said about "The Dark Ages wasn't all grimy..." there has to be elements of humanity we can engage with for it to have a ring of authenticity in a sandbox. Because ideally this is setting the standard for lowest common denominator for civilization. Otherwise it's not civilization at all, and we're really talking about savage tribalism too. And even THAT is totally gameable.
Quote from: tenbones;1118711Otherwise it's not civilization at all, and we're really talking about savage tribalism too. And even THAT is totally gameable.
Oh, definitely. And also just as jarring to those who want their tribals to look less "red of tooth and claw" and more "sapient bonobos".
Greetings!
Yes, of course there is also civilization and glory and joy in a Dark Ages milieu.
I just have this frustration with Disney-fying everything in game worlds, where everything seems to be pushed towards being 2020 Seattle.
A harsh and brutal world is far more interesting, and as Tenbones alludes to, *gameable* as well. Life and death hang by a thread. Opportunity, or a quick death are around every corner. For those able to travel, the world is brimming with possibilities.
I think players enjoy the challenge and experience, however vicariously, of looking into a different world, of imagining, of struggling.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1118726Greetings!
Yes, of course there is also civilization and glory and joy in a Dark Ages milieu.
I just have this frustration with Disney-fying everything in game worlds, where everything seems to be pushed towards being 2020 Seattle.
A harsh and brutal world is far more interesting, and as Tenbones alludes to, *gameable* as well. Life and death hang by a thread. Opportunity, or a quick death are around every corner. For those able to travel, the world is brimming with possibilities.
I think players enjoy the challenge and experience, however vicariously, of looking into a different world, of imagining, of struggling.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'd like to see a Ravenloft domain that is
literally patterned after 2020 Seattle.
Quote from: SHARK;1118726Greetings!
Yes, of course there is also civilization and glory and joy in a Dark Ages milieu.
I just have this frustration with Disney-fying everything in game worlds, where everything seems to be pushed towards being 2020 Seattle.
A harsh and brutal world is far more interesting, and as Tenbones alludes to, *gameable* as well. Life and death hang by a thread. Opportunity, or a quick death are around every corner. For those able to travel, the world is brimming with possibilities.
I think players enjoy the challenge and experience, however vicariously, of looking into a different world, of imagining, of struggling.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yeah... I find the Disney-fication thing is purely done because of lack of desire to keep things contextually "realistic". D&D obviously doesn't even try. It may have at one point, but the operative reality of living Gods, rampant access to magic, over any real expanse of time does not even *remotely* reflect their settings by implication. And "Dark Ages" style settings have a LOT of implication to them that are extremely alluring to me. By its very core conceit: it speaks of a fall from splendor, or the a higher standard - and we're now set in the aftermath of that reality. So the GM has to really think not just what the world is like *now* but what was it like *before* it slipped into this "Dark Age" - because depending on what you're working on, the time-differential between the rise and fall, one has to calculate the pseudo-history that explains why things are the way they are now.
I'm wrestling with that very problem in my current sci-fantasy project I'm working on. It's a beast to parse through to get tonally right, especially with the considerations of a fallen technological society into utter barbarism and cargo-cult levels (think Mad Max) of degeneration, now coming around to the beginnings the latter "dark age"... but everyone believes the tech is magic... sort of. If I just made it strictly fantasy... it might be a lot easier. But I'm too ambitious to do the obvious...
I totally agree having the world be dangerous makes "dark ages" play very alluring for certain players. Good settings that are well designed can spread that out by making civilization a *little* more easier to cling to - much like real life. But outside that civilization... it's Red in Tooth and Claw(tm). Nailing that tone with those conceits is the trick for getting players that aren't into "Grimdark" gaming to get their toe in and feel less uncomfortable.
Quote from: SHARK;1118166Seattle 2020 mindset.
I can remember when 2020 was the gritty setting!
Quote from: tenbones;1118677Ahh! The good 'ol days.
It's funny you bring this up - because I look back on all these elements to inform my own "Dark Ages" style "gritty" games. LITERALLY everything you describe is my childhood references.
And it's basically because that's how people lived. Like Pundit said, the Dark Ages were gritty, but it wasn't always gritty. Certainly less so now, in third world countries, but it depends. I think the reason why a lot of D&D players like the Disney-version is because they've been taught sub-consiously simply by living here in America/Europe to abhor what they consider extreme poverty. When to those living in it, or on its periphery - that's just life.
But living in that manner produces a lot of stuff that gamers today consider "adventure" by dint of the modern conveniences they take for granted. My uncles used to go out and "catch" dinner. We'd cook outside over open pits - my auntie farmed (and now my cousins STILL farm) pigs which they butcher right there in the "backyard". Water came from a well. Chickens, small garden, little bit of foraging - Not too different from "Ye Goode Olde Dayse" in a medieval society.
But all the folklore and supersition you'd have in European Dark Ages are very much part of the third-world consciousness. There is a LOT to pull from, even if you wanna Disney-fy it, to give some "verisimilitude" to the conceits of living in that era that you can find right now. Even in part of the US (and I'm sure in rural Europe).
@Scrivener - have you seen... THE LADY IN WHITE? There have been a couple of filipino/Malay folklore monsters that have made it into D&D like the Penanggalan - always a classic.
Oh yeah, we still slaughter pigs at my in-laws' place with a long knife to the heart. Blood pumps everywhere, until it is collected in a pot. Of course, this often happens at festival time and, if you don't know better, you would swear the entire village is making babies scream as the pigs begin to realise what's about to happen.
Many of their neighbours still pump the water they need each day - not from wells, per se; there are public water pumps. A couple of my neighbours in the wealthier part of the city also have water pumps in their yards because public water is so unreliable due to the massive corruption and incompetence in the local water company. (As you know in the Philippines, if you wake up and find there is not massive corruption and incompetence it means you have forgotten that you had flown to another country the night before.)
Yes, I have seen a white lady albeit in Singapore. I had Filipino friends staying with me and, when I described what I had seen, they were suitably horrified. My apartment overlooked a Muslim cemetery so they claimed that was the source. When my wife was pregnant, she insisted on either sleeping in black night clothes or wrapped in a black sheet to keep the unnamed monsters away from the baby. (I think this may have been an aswang or its local equivalent?)
I cycle through some small villages most days when I am there and there are these weird little shrines in most of them. The form of Catholicism practised in much of the Philippines is largely pre-Reformation so you can more clearly see the pagan roots showing. One of the more notable shrines on my cycling route is dedicted to the "magic medal of Mary" which makes me want to stat up a D&D magic item. You certainly would never find that in a post-Reformation country with Catholicism.
I also cannot travel more than 30 kms from my house because of the risk of running into "monsters" except that these monsters are, of course, terrorists. And I am white so I am a high value target for these terrorists and for rogue police involved for kidnap-for-ransom. In one direction I have the Communist terrorists and, in the other direction, I have Muslim terrorists. Again, good fodder for the DM brain - I live in a points-of-light world! :)
Back to the OP, I also rely heavily for my safety on a border fort. At a key intersection on my cycling route, there is a small fortified outpost of the army guarding primarily against the Communist terrorists. It's my border fort and I am incredibly grateful that it is there as it guards the only surreptitious entrance to the city I live in. All the other entrances are guarded by police checkpoints but this one is at the mouth of a valley with little traffic. I am surprised they found someone smart enough in command to put it in such a key location.
But, yes, it's all good fodder for the DM brain when villages need to be described in some detail.
It's a Big amazing world with a Lot of variation. Many people have never lived out of their local area and have a hard time imagining what life is like somewhere else.
Movies can only do so much in exposing people to other parts of the world.
It is hard to run a game with a setting that you have no actual reference to.
I suspect that is why there are so many "Disney" versions of games that are from a stereotypical mid-western American viewpoint.
I've tried running Empire of the Petal Throne but the only touch stones I have is some tourist travel in China and a few movies.
The players that have tried the game have even less.
Not sure if this is a digression per se... Shark you can make the call.
But the real "meat" of a "Dark Ages" conceit is "Civilization vs. Barbarism" and that gray-space inbetween. It's really funny how big that space is because it's totally dependent on what that Civilization *was* and to what degree of Barbarism it fell to. The discussion about third-world countries rural subsistence living is great inspiration for trying to pin down the realities for use in such games, because there are entirely different expressions of it historically, but there's always some basics that have to be followed.
Case in point - looking at the Plains Indians of America, a topic I'm only recently discovering is *vastly* different in reality from what most people in America think of. I grew up with "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and the whole "Dances with Wolves" Disney-idea of how they lived, the "noble savage". But I now know the Plains Indians were gangbanging savages of the highest order, like my ancestors in the jungles of the Philippines (arguably worse). But it's not like as primitive cultures they had achieved some high level of civility to "fall" from - which is a major denotation of "Dark Age".
But the day-to-day practices of living are things that can inform the who/what/how one survives at that lowest level of barbarism, which you can build on for your "descended state" of your Dark Age. The question of course is "to what degree". Even in Dark Ages Europe... for whatever we want to call "General Median Lifestyle" - there are ALWAYs going to be fringes of that reality that are even worse. I mean... you still had some *real* savages running around after the fall of Rome. But Dark Ages style settings are hard... the enemies have to be harder, right?
Quote from: Greentongue;1118791I've tried running Empire of the Petal Throne but the only touch stones I have is some tourist travel in China and a few movies.
The players that have tried the game have even less.
That would seem to be a decent start to any EPT game. When I was in Korea, the village right outside of the military base was hedonistic and wild. It featured hundreds of restuarants, hotels, motels, nightclubs, and whorehouses. a little alleyway threaded through this entire mess and up a steep hill, complete with sidestreets, dead ends, jinked alleys where you get get mugged, and some of the densest residential areas I have ever seen. At the very top of the hill, was of course, a temple,
The Blue Mosque. A typical Friday night in this neighborhood saw fifty thousand, sometimes up to, and more than one hundred thousand people all jammed into an area of less than half of a square mile. When I think of
Jakalla, it immediately brings me back to this place.
Another time I traveled South for several days, to the seat of the old Southern Capital,
Gyeong-ju. then further to
Jinhyeon-dong and
Bulguksa Temple. I always imagined EPT was like ancient Thai or India, but just visiting here gave me a good feel for the exotic temples and cities of the far east...
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Gorgeous photos!!
Quote from: tenbones;1118838Gorgeous photos!!
Yes, from Google Maps. Unfortunately my personal photos of the
Temple and
Southern Palaces were destroyed in an accidental fire in Colorado in 2014. The Buddhist monks hand paint the entire Temple, many hundred of thousands of square feet of detailed and fine illustrations with inscriptions in multiple languages. I didn't see one peeling, or faded, post, or wall, anywhere on the Temple grounds which covered several hundred acres.
Yes, the photos are inspiring to those with interest but hard for people that have not lived there to engage their imagination.
Movies are as close as people usually get and as soon as they step off "the set" they are at a loss. IMO
Quote from: Marchand;1118775I can remember when 2020 was the gritty setting!
Greetings!
*Laughs* Very true! I remember that as well!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: tenbones;1118796Not sure if this is a digression per se... Shark you can make the call.
But the real "meat" of a "Dark Ages" conceit is "Civilization vs. Barbarism" and that gray-space inbetween. It's really funny how big that space is because it's totally dependent on what that Civilization *was* and to what degree of Barbarism it fell to. The discussion about third-world countries rural subsistence living is great inspiration for trying to pin down the realities for use in such games, because there are entirely different expressions of it historically, but there's always some basics that have to be followed.
Case in point - looking at the Plains Indians of America, a topic I'm only recently discovering is *vastly* different in reality from what most people in America think of. I grew up with "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and the whole "Dances with Wolves" Disney-idea of how they lived, the "noble savage". But I now know the Plains Indians were gangbanging savages of the highest order, like my ancestors in the jungles of the Philippines (arguably worse). But it's not like as primitive cultures they had achieved some high level of civility to "fall" from - which is a major denotation of "Dark Age".
But the day-to-day practices of living are things that can inform the who/what/how one survives at that lowest level of barbarism, which you can build on for your "descended state" of your Dark Age. The question of course is "to what degree". Even in Dark Ages Europe... for whatever we want to call "General Median Lifestyle" - there are ALWAYs going to be fringes of that reality that are even worse. I mean... you still had some *real* savages running around after the fall of Rome. But Dark Ages style settings are hard... the enemies have to be harder, right?
Greetings!
Excellent, my friend! No, you're not digressing at all. It's an expansion of the base subject!:D
The struggle of "Civilization vs. Barbarism" is a very real struggle, and a pervasive aspect of the Dark Ages. It is often reflected in the barbarian, nomadic, rural-living barbarian peoples resisting the lure of civilization, the triumph of large-scale agriculture, the ensuing change in lifestyle, political and civic leadership, and even religious changes. Let's face it, civilization, large-scale agriculture, urban-centered communities, a more formal, systemic government, codification of laws and legal systems, and an urbanization of religion--emphasizing temples and religious hierarchy, and a shift away from a bartering-based economy to that of a coin-based economy--all of these changes are enormous, any one of them, but when combined, they represent an entire destruction of a way of life, of a tribal identity for a people.
And we wonder why the Germans, and the Celts, and the Slavs, the Baltic tribes, and the Vikings, and the Huns, and the Mongols, all resisted with such savage and enduring fury.
The conflict is deep, and bitter.
Indeed, I agree that having some idea of what was achieved *before* the fall into the Dark Ages is critical, as well. You must be familiar with what *was* to know what is different, in contrast now.
I think players can be shepherded along into the new experience of getting away from Disney fantasy. I often highlight my game sessions with more or less exotic food--Chinese, Persian, Indian, Greek, to help get the players shifted into a different mind-set, starting with their taste buds and palette. I also use many kinds of world music, both traditional styles and modern, and point to various books showing people, clothing, animals, houses and general architecture, all flowing towards encouraging the players to get their minds more distant from not just "Middle America" but a modernistic, Seattle 2020, Disney-Fantasy view of "medieval life."
I have found some good success with such an approach, and the techniques and examples, while being fun, delicious, and interesting, do actually help people to think and feel differently, and to attempt to *imagine* differently.
I always hope to encourage players to in the process of *imagining* differently, help them become more immersed in the campaign world. This serves to gradually build up a knowledge of the campaign world, and a respect for the peoples, cultures, religions, and ways of life. The players then, through their characters, develop this awareness, this knowledge, a kind of emotional connection to the campaign world.
Your campaign world must be a greater source of authority and identity than Disney. As daunting a task as that might seem, with an open mind, and some effort, it can be accomplished. The players certainly enjoy it more. I have noticed also that the stories become about them, their characters, the campaign world--and not about some kind of reflection or reflexive adherence to Disney Fantasy. It can be a lot of work, though I find it worthwhile and rewarding.
All of those little details, like how they prepare food, how they get to eat, with what, how they get water, how they bathe, all kinds of things, all seem to be on some level trivial--but when taken together, increase that dynamic of immersion. Cultural customs, how the classes relate to each other, how men and women relate to each other, particular clothing, makeup, jewelry, modes of address, various public and ceremonial rituals--all go into creating that immersive atmosphere that makes the campaign world different, distinct, and interesting. The game isn't always about killing everything and being "Murder-Hobos." *laughs*
I always find it to be interesting and enjoyable when the players are more interested in their characters, their character's relationships with others around them, the local campaign environment, NPC's and so on, ambitions and goals, than they are in "Leveling up", "new powers" or other mechanical aspects of the game.
Vindicating the reputation of a friend, gaining the respect of an elderly priest, helping the local blacksmith or a soldier with a problem, and making new friends with a merchant or an elf ranger that lives in the nearby woods, these kinds of accomplishments become rewards in of themselves. Pursuing these kinds of things through knowledge of local cultures and customs, of navigating these things in a harsh and brutal world that is very unlike the modern world, also becomes a meaningful challenge, that is also distinct from the fake standards of achievement for the Disney mind set as well. I find that the Disney mind set is often shallow, and simply reinforces comfort zones and preconceived ideas of a idealistic, railroad kind of story. To hell with that, you know? *Laughs*
[video=youtube;_DTMoZf1jis]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DTMoZf1jis[/youtube]
The woman dancing in this video is incredible. However, it is also her costume, her body movements, and the very distinct music and vocals which are all magnificent. This kind of thing helps the mind to *imagine* something different from the Disney experience and mind set.:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GameDaddy;1118841Yes, from Google Maps. Unfortunately my personal photos of the Temple and Southern Palaces were destroyed in an accidental fire in Colorado in 2014. The Buddhist monks hand paint the entire Temple, many hundred of thousands of square feet of detailed and fine illustrations with inscriptions in multiple languages. I didn't see one peeling, or faded, post, or wall, anywhere on the Temple grounds which covered several hundred acres.
Greetings!
I love the gorgeous photos, Gamedaddy! Brilliant! Even when players have never personally been to such foreign places, having clothing, music, food, cultural objects or art, and beautiful photos all help. Get away from the Disney vision, you know? I love the different stuff!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1118847[video=youtube;_DTMoZf1jis]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DTMoZf1jis[/youtube]
The woman dancing in this video is incredible. However, it is also her costume, her body movements, and the very distinct music and vocals which are all magnificent. This kind of thing helps the mind to *imagine* something different from the Disney experience and mind set.:D
And it's called "Happy Birthday Tribal Mafia", which is an excellent name for a video clip.
Quote from: tenbones;1118711Ahh! Yeah I've played with GM's like that before... They're inversely naive about "gritty settings" for oddly similar reasons relating to never having "been there" and simply not giving it any thought. But you know, campaigns like that are hard to sustain when your GM's are not really able to make those conceits engaging, rather than just punishing for punishment's sake. They crash. Hopefully the GM learns.
This alludes to what Pundit said about "The Dark Ages wasn't all grimy..." there has to be elements of humanity we can engage with for it to have a ring of authenticity in a sandbox. Because ideally this is setting the standard for lowest common denominator for civilization. Otherwise it's not civilization at all, and we're really talking about savage tribalism too. And even THAT is totally gameable.
I think you are understating your case. It is something I've noticed for some time now. I'm a little (but not much) younger than the original D&D crowd. Call it a half-generation removed. I caught the tail-end of using a well, when it was hooked up to an electric pump. But I've done the haul in a bucket for a garden. People mostly got their food from the supermarket, but a few, now and then, butchered their own. And even a wider net is the hands-on crafts, activities, and so forth of day-to-day living. For example, I never made a quilt because I had to have it or be cold. I did make a quilt with people that had done that, and did it the same way they did. A lot of things I didn't experience myself, but I knew personally people that did. And talked to them a lot about it. Most of our wood-working was done with power tools, but I've logged wood, seen it cut up, and made something from it with hand tools and sweat.
What I see often is many people that are another generation and a half removed from those experiences--at least two generations removed from the start of RPGs. (The exceptions are people that have spent some time in other parts of the world.) Not only can they not kill a chicken and prepare it, they personally have never talked to anyone that has done it! At some point, it's hard to even get to a place in imagination and a frame of reference to convey what "dark ages" means--positive or negative.
Quote from: SHARK;1118166I certainly do love high culture, grand civilization, high magic, and all the wondrous possibilities that such embraces. However, in my own Thandor Campaign, I have had to restrain myself. It seems to me, much like for the fantastical to hold wonder, it likewise must be comparatively *rare*. Thus, I have many border fortresses that are harsh, muddy things, jagged, wooden palisade walls, uneven shack-like towers, gates of timbers and basic iron bands. Nothing too complex or sophisticated.
The communities, likewise, must be kept simple, harsh, and brutal. Lots of mud in the streets, open sewers, garbage piles being burned out in the open, soot everywhere, lots of wood's smoke. Animals being slaughtered and gutted in the open air. Forget plumbing and sewer systems. Water must be fetched from a well, and brought in by the bucket, by the sweat of your brow, or the sweat of a slave. Food preparation is also harsh, and simple. Rough. This all of course means than such closely packed human communities are just bubbling with horrid smells, fetid air, and lots of germs and disease. Shit and mud-covered peasants and slaves everywhere.
Keep modern cleanliness, and effortless labour for everything far away from the normal campaign. Make the players always dirty and smelly, and sweating for everything. Often cold and wet. It's always some horrid extreme of one kind or another. *Comfort* itself, *Convenience* is something they must achieve by hard efforts on their own, or through the use of slaves. Otherwise, life is full of hard work, sweating, and discomfort and struggle of all kinds, every fucking day.
I enjoy a game that tends that way just a little, but not nearly all the way. I don't want the Disney idealized version, but I do want it to be not quite so grimy and brutal as reality would suggest. Part of the reason is just general preferences for me and my players. However, part of it is that I want the fantastical elements to pile on top of it. You pile nasty fantastical on top of grimy and brutal mundane, what you get it too close to horror for our tastes.
Depending upon how much magic you want, it also provides an alternative to the "great fallen empire" base. In the alternate campaign, it's set in the dark ages, and it's always been the dark ages. People carve out their security and happiness, often managing to produce some peace and prosperity for a time, but it's only one interfering fey elf or nasty sorcerer away from collapsing.
Quote from: soltakss;1119369And it's called "Happy Birthday Tribal Mafia", which is an excellent name for a video clip.
Greetings!
Yes, very nice, my friend! Do you also understand the song itself? I understand that the woman is Russian. My god, the music is incredible. She is magnificent, and mesmerizing. What a gorgeous dancer!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1119372I enjoy a game that tends that way just a little, but not nearly all the way. I don't want the Disney idealized version, but I do want it to be not quite so grimy and brutal as reality would suggest. Part of the reason is just general preferences for me and my players. However, part of it is that I want the fantastical elements to pile on top of it. You pile nasty fantastical on top of grimy and brutal mundane, what you get it too close to horror for our tastes.
Depending upon how much magic you want, it also provides an alternative to the "great fallen empire" base. In the alternate campaign, it's set in the dark ages, and it's always been the dark ages. People carve out their security and happiness, often managing to produce some peace and prosperity for a time, but it's only one interfering fey elf or nasty sorcerer away from collapsing.
Greetings!
That's awesome! Just "only one interfering fey elf or nasty sorcerer away from collapsing!"
I love that!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1119371I think you are understating your case. It is something I've noticed for some time now. I'm a little (but not much) younger than the original D&D crowd. Call it a half-generation removed. I caught the tail-end of using a well, when it was hooked up to an electric pump. But I've done the haul in a bucket for a garden. People mostly got their food from the supermarket, but a few, now and then, butchered their own. And even a wider net is the hands-on crafts, activities, and so forth of day-to-day living. For example, I never made a quilt because I had to have it or be cold. I did make a quilt with people that had done that, and did it the same way they did. A lot of things I didn't experience myself, but I knew personally people that did. And talked to them a lot about it. Most of our wood-working was done with power tools, but I've logged wood, seen it cut up, and made something from it with hand tools and sweat.
What I see often is many people that are another generation and a half removed from those experiences--at least two generations removed from the start of RPGs. (The exceptions are people that have spent some time in other parts of the world.) Not only can they not kill a chicken and prepare it, they personally have never talked to anyone that has done it! At some point, it's hard to even get to a place in imagination and a frame of reference to convey what "dark ages" means--positive or negative.
Wow, that's a really keen insight. That's going to be on my mind for a while. Thank you! :D
Most of the history I've been exposed to is event-driven, e.g. major political movements and figures, wars, technological innovation. Understanding especially the forces behind those events might allow deriving information about what the day to day was like, but seems like it'd require some of that "already know how to pluck a chicken" background to fill in the gaps effectively. Where do you guys go to find out more about the details and implications of just day-to-day life, in the Dark Ages or otherwise? Work like that for any era seems like it's the place to go to run an authentic campaign.
You can describe things as grimy and gritty if you like, but it's just a flavor choice and not necessarily "realistic". Like others I've traveled extensively in the so-called developing world. There are only so many people to create muddy streets and open sewers, and nature is vast and clean. Just outside your jagged palisade and past the fetid gibbet might be a beautiful brook with a bluebell meadow looking out to the mountains. That's a perfectly realistic dark age fantasy setting.
If you were to list the 10 aspects of Disney Fantasy vs. Dark Age Fantasy, what would they be?
Where exactly are the most important dividing lines and deviations?
I don't know about 10 but one would be that in the Disney version, nobody actually starves to death.
Also, you know that "Good" will overcome in the end. Somehow.
Quote from: SHARK;1119378Yes, very nice, my friend! Do you also understand the song itself? I understand that the woman is Russian. My god, the music is incredible. She is magnificent, and mesmerizing. What a gorgeous dancer!
Up to about 2:30, it isn't Russian. After that, it says something about the youth in the cities and something about love and black, but it is very difficult for me to catch over the music. I have always struggled to make out lyrics over background music in both foreign languages and in English, for some reason. the voice effects make it a little harder as well. Sorry.
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1119423Where do you guys go to find out more about the details and implications of just day-to-day life, in the Dark Ages or otherwise? Work like that for any era seems like it's the place to go to run an authentic campaign.
I read a lot of history, and then while I'm thinking about what I read, try to discard some assumptions about what I think I know. For someone without those day-to-day living experiences, outside of living it yourself, the next best thing I can think of would be the "Fox Fire" books about crafts in the Appalachian mountains. That's not going to tell you exactly how people did things in an early medieval or ancient setting. It will give you a frame of reference for living without power tools, in a partially pre-industrial environment. Sure, they had some better hand tools, forged and made in ways that weren't available in an earlier time. It's not perfect. But its close enough to jar the sensibilities and imagination. After all, a fantasy/gaming version is rarely going to be entirely historical anyway.
The analogous thing I've really struggled with is ships. I've never rowed except on a rowing machine. I've paddled a canoe and been on a sailing ship (as a passenger) once. It is difficult to learn enough about what sailing is inherently like to get to a point where I can make the game have the verisimilitude that I want.
Disney: The woods are scary because of what might be in them. Even when you get lost, it's being worried about what might find you first. And a fair amount of being lost in the dark, of course. Dark Age: All of that, plus, getting hurt in a fall, can't get out, dying alone, hungry. And then the things in the woods eat your remains and scatter them so that no one knows what happened for sure. The woods ate you.
Disney: The villains are mean. They have a goal. You are in the way. But mostly they are mean. Dark Age: Hard people living hard lives, doing their best to survive. If you get in their way, it isn't personal when they take you out. They might snarl about territory before they kill you, but that's just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
My understanding from "A Farewell to Alms" is that modern Third World living standards at the low end are much, much lower than that of Western Europeans during the Middle Ages. But I wouldn't worry much about this when seeking to evoke a theme, like grime & grit.
Quote from: S'mon;1119491My understanding from "A Farewell to Alms" is that modern Third World living standards at the low end are much, much lower than that of Western Europeans during the Middle Ages. But I wouldn't worry much about this when seeking to evoke a theme, like grime & grit.
One thing to keep in mind when laying out your "Dark Ages" is how much the previous civilization had consumed the easily extracted resources.
This determines the long hard slog back and how long it will take. If it is even possible.
Can the remains be reused? Can any of the dross?
Maybe the current "Dark Ages" is actually the new "Golden Age".
Quote from: S'mon;1119491My understanding from "A Farewell to Alms" is that modern Third World living standards at the low end are much, much lower than that of Western Europeans during the Middle Ages. But I wouldn't worry much about this when seeking to evoke a theme, like grime & grit.
I suspect that's because modern Third World countries - including the one that I just finished living in for eight years - are practically defined by their failed institutions whereas Western Europeans ultimately succeeded because of their/our successful institutions (I will leave the authors of "Why Nations Fail" to make the academic argument).
One of the many interesting things about the failures of the Philippines is that you get to see Dark Ages, pre-Reformation Catholicism in action. Much of the success of the West was built on the Reformation and I think the experiences of the modern Philippines confirm this.
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1119423Where do you guys go to find out more about the details and implications of just day-to-day life, in the Dark Ages or otherwise? Work like that for any era seems like it's the place to go to run an authentic campaign.
My campaigns are usually earlier (Bronze Age) or later (Age of Discovery and later) but lately I've found great sources of inspiration from various youtube channels - like ones about period reenactment (https://www.youtube.com/user/jastownsendandson/videos), various (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoC47do520os_4DBMEFGg4A/videos) crafts (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO_augYhnO7tF-d4JbSXFuQ/videos), primitive technology (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/videos), and other various ones about bushcraft and primitive survival.
Also copies of 1800s crafts books and the various Time Life Books series have come in useful for pulling information of day-to-day life.
Quote from: Adventurer;1119704My campaigns are usually earlier (Bronze Age) or later (Age of Discovery and later) but lately I've found great sources of inspiration from various youtube channels - like ones about period reenactment (https://www.youtube.com/user/jastownsendandson/videos), various (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoC47do520os_4DBMEFGg4A/videos) crafts (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO_augYhnO7tF-d4JbSXFuQ/videos), primitive technology (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/videos), and other various ones about bushcraft and primitive survival.
Also copies of 1800s crafts books and the various Time Life Books series have come in useful for pulling information of day-to-day life.
That's a fantastic idea, thanks!
I bet the Old Farmer's Almanac might be worth a look too, come to think of it. And I think those are famous enough to be well preserved and readily available.
Quote from: S'mon;1119491My understanding from "A Farewell to Alms"
For those who are not familiar with the work. It is a well-written book that explains in details of how pre-industrial economies worked and the how the industrial revolution changed things.
The basic gist is that prior to the industrial revolution changes in technology had little impact on the living standards of various cultures.
The basic reason is that if something improves the availability of food and resources increasing individual income then births will start to exceed deaths and then a period of time afterwards, the population has grown enough to consume the surplus and individual income falls back to it original level. If the change is permanent the result is a higher population living at subsistence income. This income a general average.
Another effect of this is that if something major happens that reduces population like the Black Death then after the chaos, individual income actually increases along with the number of births. Which again will eventually cause a fall in individual income.
Starting around 1780 to 1820 this all began to change with the development of the first industrial revolution. For a variety of reason the author gets into the book.
For the purpose of fantasy roleplaying it is an interesting explanation of what things remain stagnant within a setting. Why the presence of magic haven't turned fantasy settings into post scarcity utopias.
Sounds like that has to go on my reading list pronto!
Also explains a lot about most of the world and where we will be if there is ever a Mega Crash.
Quote from: Greentongue;1119732Sounds like that has to go on my reading list pronto!
Also explains a lot about most of the world and where we will be if there is ever a Mega Crash.
Well keep in mind that the Industrial Revolution is as much about social and philosophical ideas as well as technology. If there is a mega crash the aftermath will be it own thing because these ideas are not going to go away.
Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1119541I suspect that's because modern Third World countries - including the one that I just finished living in for eight years - are practically defined by their failed institutions whereas Western Europeans ultimately succeeded because of their/our successful institutions (I will leave the authors of "Why Nations Fail" to make the academic argument).
One of the many interesting things about the failures of the Philippines is that you get to see Dark Ages, pre-Reformation Catholicism in action. Much of the success of the West was built on the Reformation and I think the experiences of the modern Philippines confirm this.
Interesting. What does pre-Reformation Catholicism look like anyway?
Quote from: Scrivener of Doom...Much of the success of the West was built on the Reformation...
Most likely it is the other way around. The hostility of civil powers played a significant role. One of the chief means employed in promoting the spread of the Reformation was the use of violence by the princes and municipal authorities. The Reformation occurred after the development of the modern state, not before.
Quote from: GameDaddyInteresting. What does pre-Reformation Catholicism look like anyway?
Here are some of my notes on the medieval church:
Compared to today, there was far greater emphasis on acquiring divine favor through mechanical means such as charms, pilgrimages, holy images, and the relics of saints. The most cherished relics of all were those associated with Christ and the Virgin Mary. In its emphasis on the supernatural powers of material objects, popular belief carried a residue from long-ago days of pagan magic.
The great shortcoming of the high medieval Church was not gross corruption but rather a creeping complacency that resulted sometimes in a shallow, mechanical attitude toward the Christian religious life and an obsession with ecclesiastical property.
The Church played a vital role in the operation of tenth- and early-eleventh-century society, but it was usually subordinate to the lay ruling class.
Eleventh century bishops were inclined to regard themselves as a brotherhood of spiritual leaders, exercising much local autonomy and wide powers of jurisdiction, under a papacy that guided them only very gently from a respectful distance.
From the lay standpoint it was an effective administrative tool, but from the spiritual standpoint it was sometimes inadequate and even corrupt.
Monasteries all too frequently ignored the strict Benedictine Rule and some priests had concubines, and many had wives.
Lay lords often sold bishoprics and abbacies to unworthy, self-seeking churchmen, who then recouped the purchase price by exploiting their tenants and subordinates. This commerce was known as simony.
In general reformers fell into two groups:
One consisted of moderates who sought to eliminate simony, enforce clerical celibacy, and improve the moral caliber of churchmen, but without challenging the Church's traditional collaboration with kings and princes.
The second group was much more radical, its goal being to demolish the tradition of the lay control and to rebuild society on the pattern of the papal monarchy theory.
During the twelfth century, the papacy lost much of its former zealous reform spirit as it evolved into a huge, complex administrative institution.
The Franciscans and the Dominicans emerged in the 13th century, a more compassionate and effective response to heresy than the inquisition (the Roman inquisition represented the medieval church at its most repressive).
The waning of papal authority stemmed from an ever-widening gulf between papal government and the spiritual thirst of ordinary Christians combined with the hostility to Catholic internationalism on the part of increasingly powerful centralized kingdoms such as England and France.
Looking at the high medieval Church from the broadest possible perspective we see a religious institution with a cohesion, independence, and political leverage unmatched in all history.
The impact of medieval Christianity on our modern world is too pervasive and complex to be precisely measured. But it may be more than coincidence that the civilization that has transformed the globe emerged from a society that possessed, in the words of Sir Richard Southern, "the most elaborate and thoroughly integrated system of religious thought and practice the world has ever known."
Quote from: GameDaddy;1119749Interesting. What does pre-Reformation Catholicism look like anyway?
More idols. More corruption. More indulgences for sale. More secrecy. More pagan.
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1119790Most likely it is the other way around. The hostility of civil powers played a significant role. One of the chief means employed in promoting the spread of the Reformation was the use of violence by the princes and municipal authorities. The Reformation occurred after the development of the modern state, not before. (snip)
I can understand why you would say that and agree in part. However, I would argue - as the authors of Why Nations Fail essentially do - that the success of the West was built on the multitude of successful, fit-for-purpose, competing institutions which clashed over ideas and, to a certain extent, held each other accountable while limiting each other's power and/or influence. That allowed, inter alia, the classical liberal tradition to flourish (which is the antithesis of the oxymoron of American liberalism) and so we saw civilisation flourish.
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1119790Here are some of my notes on the medieval church:
Compared to today, there was far greater emphasis on acquiring divine favor through mechanical means such as charms, pilgrimages, holy images, and the relics of saints. The most cherished relics of all were those associated with Christ and the Virgin Mary. In its emphasis on the supernatural powers of material objects, popular belief carried a residue from long-ago days of pagan magic.
The great shortcoming of the high medieval Church was not gross corruption but rather a creeping complacency that resulted sometimes in a shallow, mechanical attitude toward the Christian religious life and an obsession with ecclesiastical property.
The Church played a vital role in the operation of tenth- and early-eleventh-century society, but it was usually subordinate to the lay ruling class.
Eleventh century bishops were inclined to regard themselves as a brotherhood of spiritual leaders, exercising much local autonomy and wide powers of jurisdiction, under a papacy that guided them only very gently from a respectful distance.
From the lay standpoint it was an effective administrative tool, but from the spiritual standpoint it was sometimes inadequate and even corrupt.
Monasteries all too frequently ignored the strict Benedictine Rule and some priests had concubines, and many had wives.
Lay lords often sold bishoprics and abbacies to unworthy, self-seeking churchmen, who then recouped the purchase price by exploiting their tenants and subordinates. This commerce was known as simony.
In general reformers fell into two groups:
One consisted of moderates who sought to eliminate simony, enforce clerical celibacy, and improve the moral caliber of churchmen, but without challenging the Church's traditional collaboration with kings and princes.
The second group was much more radical, its goal being to demolish the tradition of the lay control and to rebuild society on the pattern of the papal monarchy theory.
During the twelfth century, the papacy lost much of its former zealous reform spirit as it evolved into a huge, complex administrative institution.
The Franciscans and the Dominicans emerged in the 13th century, a more compassionate and effective response to heresy than the inquisition (the Roman inquisition represented the medieval church at its most repressive).
The waning of papal authority stemmed from an ever-widening gulf between papal government and the spiritual thirst of ordinary Christians combined with the hostility to Catholic internationalism on the part of increasingly powerful centralized kingdoms such as England and France.
Looking at the high medieval Church from the broadest possible perspective we see a religious institution with a cohesion, independence, and political leverage unmatched in all history.
The impact of medieval Christianity on our modern world is too pervasive and complex to be precisely measured. But it may be more than coincidence that the civilization that has transformed the globe emerged from a society that possessed, in the words of Sir Richard Southern, "the most elaborate and thoroughly integrated system of religious thought and practice the world has ever known."
Everything you said here is true. However, you also can't ignore the deep richness of medieval Catholicism that gave a significant and detailed spiritual life to the average commoner. There was tremendous pushback against the Reformation because it destroyed both a great deal of the social welfare aspects of the Church, and because it wiped out an enormous amount of religious life's color and vibrancy. It's hard to imagine today how it would have looked like when a group of theocratic intellectuals stripped your local cathedral of icons and saints and sacraments and rituals that seemed immemorial.
Intellectually, I'm more pro-reformation than anti. But I can certainly feel a lot of sympathy with just how devastating it must have been for the average believer.