Does anyone have any cool rules (from published books or house rules) handling oaths in RPGs? Bonus for following your oath, and penalties for breaking it?
No. Keeping or breaking an oath will have rewards/penalties entirely dependent on the specific situation.
Changeling: the Lost has an entire system for handling pledges of various kinds, but it's of course fairly specific to that game (and not related to D&D in any way) with the version used in second edition much more freeform and narrative then the one in first edition (which basically spelled out a series of factors with positive or negative costs which could be added to the pledge, for a total sum of zero).
5e D&D's Inspiration mechanic would be a way to handle it.
Quote from: Trond on October 15, 2023, 01:41:33 PM
Does anyone have any cool rules (from published books or house rules) handling oaths in RPGs? Bonus for following your oath, and penalties for breaking it?
What game are you planning to use this with? No sense in providing something that wouldn't make sense for the system you are playing.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 16, 2023, 05:52:22 PM
Quote from: Trond on October 15, 2023, 01:41:33 PM
Does anyone have any cool rules (from published books or house rules) handling oaths in RPGs? Bonus for following your oath, and penalties for breaking it?
What game are you planning to use this with? No sense in providing something that wouldn't make sense for the system you are playing.
Runequest first off.
I don't know about "mechanics" but it seems like a pretty straight forward thing. If you violate an oath, then you get shunned by the person or group you made the oath to. Any benefit received as a result of that oath would be rescinded as well. Given the severity of the betrayal, it could also lead to an antagonistic and hostile relationship.
Quote from: BadApple on October 16, 2023, 07:51:56 PM
I don't know about "mechanics" but it seems like a pretty straight forward thing. If you violate an oath, then you get shunned by the person or group you made the oath to. Any benefit received as a result of that oath would be rescinded as well. Given the severity of the betrayal, it could also lead to an antagonistic and hostile relationship.
You're forgetting the best parts: superstitions, gods and people's souls are often involved. Mythologically, it gets a bit more complicated or even spooky. Notice the double meaning of the word "to swear" (same in Norwegian BTW ("banne" means "swear" in both ways).
Quote from: Trond on October 16, 2023, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: BadApple on October 16, 2023, 07:51:56 PM
I don't know about "mechanics" but it seems like a pretty straight forward thing. If you violate an oath, then you get shunned by the person or group you made the oath to. Any benefit received as a result of that oath would be rescinded as well. Given the severity of the betrayal, it could also lead to an antagonistic and hostile relationship.
You're forgetting the best parts: superstitions, gods and people's souls are often involved. Mythologically, it gets a bit more complicated or even spooky. Notice the double meaning of the word "to swear" (same in Norwegian BTW ("banne" means "swear" in both ways).
Oh, I didn't forget. ;D
D&D players that play at my table are very careful with Clerics, Paladins, and Warlocks. Gods and patrons are real and always watching. Some gods have a sense of humor and others are very up tight. Take an oath, I dare you.
One of my favorite PCs a player played in one of my campaigns was a Dwarven cleric that didn't take is job seriously. His god took pains to correct him by using his own hammer to smack him in the head when he stepped out of line. The player leaned into it and everyone at the table had a good time.
Next time I revisit Traveller I'm kicking around the idea of incorporating trustworthiness into Social Standing. High Soc characters can usually be trusted to pay their debts, return the ship, or whatever else, low Soc not so much.
Of course I'd need to make Soc more fluid, high Soc characters would take a hit every time they welshed on a debt or oath, but that's doable.
Quote from: Dave 2 on October 18, 2023, 09:39:12 PM
Next time I revisit Traveller I'm kicking around the idea of incorporating trustworthiness into Social Standing. High Soc characters can usually be trusted to pay their debts, return the ship, or whatever else, low Soc not so much.
Of course I'd need to make Soc more fluid, high Soc characters would take a hit every time they welshed on a debt or oath, but that's doable.
By extension, would that mean that a low SOC PC could improve his stat through being honest and dependable?
Blood Oaths in the game,
Earthdawn, are usually sworn for a year-and-a-day after which it can be renewed. You can swear to Blood Peace, Blood Promise, and Blood Sworn (from less powerful to most powerful).
In general, you take damage (a "blood wound") when you make the Oath. If you keep it, the wound can be healed and the scar turns gold/silver. Depending on the degree of the oath, you take more or less damage. Similarly, a blood oath usually buffs the character in some way, from a minor improvement to the ability to take damage (Blood Peace) to improving attributes and abilities permanently (Blood Sworn).
Break a Blood Oath, and the damage is permanent unless you use magical healing. If successful, the scar remains but the damage is healed.
For extra funkiness, people with the right magical abilities can read the reason for the scar... (It's not stated, but I would imagine that is also present in your aura/Pattern/soul, too.)
Quote from: Dave 2 on October 18, 2023, 09:39:12 PM
Next time I revisit Traveller I'm kicking around the idea of incorporating trustworthiness into Social Standing. High Soc characters can usually be trusted to pay their debts, return the ship, or whatever else, low Soc not so much.
Of course I'd need to make Soc more fluid, high Soc characters would take a hit every time they welshed on a debt or oath, but that's doable.
If I may, I think that might fail the "smell test" of comparison to the real world. I would suggest that confusing having the
means to repay debts, for example, translates over to the willingness to
pay those debts. Indeed, the having the
means might also give advantages to those that wish to engage in shenanigans and
not pay debts.
Of course, it's an RPG--if it works for you and yours and you have fun? That's the only explanation necessary.
In fantasy there are many versions of fiction in which some beings (fae) are simply incapable of breaking oaths. And from what I've read of ancient history, in many cultures breaking an oath was simply unthinkable. Folks would die for an oath's sake. Assuming this is the approach you want, it's really more of a cultural thing and not something easily played by people with a modern mindset. I don't think social ramifications or disfavor from supernatural being is enough to produce the desired effect. My only promising thought so far for a mechanic is to have breaking an oath result in some kind of permanent psychic damage, like SAN for CoC, with serious consequences. It fits in that if someone is of such a culture, then breaking an oath indicates that they have something seriously wrong with their mind.
Quote from: Kage2020 on October 18, 2023, 11:42:43 PM
If I may, I think that might fail the "smell test" of comparison to the real world. I would suggest that confusing having the means to repay debts, for example, translates over to the willingness to pay those debts. Indeed, the having the means might also give advantages to those that wish to engage in shenanigans and not pay debts.
Of course, it's an RPG--if it works for you and yours and you have fun? That's the only explanation necessary.
Sci-fi can also mean reputational economies, not necessarily cash based ones. Eclipse Phase, for example, has a pretty nice (and extensive) section about traditional, reputational and transitional economies and how they interact with each other. Long story short, if in reputational economies you have the means to honor a debt (meaning: you're asked to perform a service as payment for a service you received earlier) and you
don't do it your Rep score takes a plunge. Do it one time too much and you're cut off from everything until reparations are made.
Quote from: Mishihari on October 19, 2023, 12:55:44 AM
In fantasy there are many versions of fiction in which some beings (fae) are simply incapable of breaking oaths. And from what I've read of ancient history, in many cultures breaking an oath was simply unthinkable. Folks would die for an oath's sake. Assuming this is the approach you want, it's really more of a cultural thing and not something easily played by people with a modern mindset. I don't think social ramifications or disfavor from supernatural being is enough to produce the desired effect. My only promising thought so far for a mechanic is to have breaking an oath result in some kind of permanent psychic damage, like SAN for CoC, with serious consequences. It fits in that if someone is of such a culture, then breaking an oath indicates that they have something seriously wrong with their mind.
What used to be the "greatest" currency was honor, and some RPGs do have this as a mechanic. Being seen as dishonorable was the worst. If you broke an oath you lost honor, but it probably happened more often than the stories reflect, because stories were there to teach lessons.
# Oaths
In the world of Cromlech Tor oaths are serious business, as they are sealed by
invoking a god (or similar powerful entity) as a guarantee. The gods do not
take breaking of oaths made in their names lightly.
Consequently, kings, lords, and other authority figures often demand oaths
witnessed by a god from important followers. (This is not necessarily done for
every rank-and-file warrior in the king's service, as the gods do not look
kindly on trivial use of oaths. Such warriors might swear an oath, but not one
bound by a god. Such "temporal oaths" may have social consequences, but not
god-sent omens, curses, or rewards.)
## Oath-Breaking
When a character breaks an oath made in the name of a god, there is a monthly
chance the oath-breaker receives a response from the offended god. There is
typically only one response given for a particular broken oath. That is, once
the god responds, there is no need to continue rolling for additional responses
each month: the punishment has been given. If there is no response from the god
for a year, then there will be no response. (Thus, a broken oath means there
will be up to twelve rolls to see if the god responds.)
Base Chance of Response: 25%
Modifier Circumstance
---------- -------------------------------------------------------------------
-10% Personal oath made in secret
+5% Oath made before a few witnesses
+10% Oath made before many witnesses
+5-15% Oath made as part of a ritual
+10% Oath made at a place sacred to the god
+1% Level of character
Responses from gods punishing oath-breakers vary widely, and require DM judgment
to select a response appropriate to the circumstances, the god involved, the
individuals involved, et cetera. Responses typically involve omens and curses.
Examples of responses include:
* Partial Loss of Power (e.g., loss of 25%-50% of hit points, loss of some
spells, inability to regain spells, etc.)
* Cursed with Disease
* Cursed with Disfigurement or Disability
* Cursed with Magical Effect
- unusual/monstrous appearance
- unusual/offensive odor
- ill luck (penalty to all rolls)
- prodigious appetite
- inability to naturally heal
- nightmares/fatigue (penalty to rolls, etc.)
- provokes hostility/aggression from animals
- sours the taste of food & drink for the character and all around him or her
- followed by crows/flies/rats/etc.
- et cetera
* Hounded/Attacked by servants of the god
The duration of these omens and curses can vary, but tend to be measured in
months or years (or permanent), rather than in days or weeks.
When a character is suffering the effects of an omen or curse, they can attempt
to atone by performing actions pleasing to the offended god, which can also
vary widely. Possibilities include (but are not limited to):
* Heroic battle dedicated to and pleasing to the god
* Sacrifices of precious gems, metals, and creatures
* Performing actions to correct or counter the worldly consequences of the
broken oath.
* Intervention from another god (which comes with its own difficulties, usually
requiring the assistance of an opposing god of appropriate power).
* Completing a quest or pilgrimage assigned by the god or its servants
## Fulfilling An Oath
Oaths which can be fulfilled sometimes produce a reward. (Such rewards are not
as certain as punishment for oath-breaking, but they can occur.) Other oaths are
such that they can't be fulfilled with a granted reward in this life (e.g., an
oath to be wed until death).
For oaths which can be fulfilled during the life of the character (e.g., an
oath for a year of loyal service to a king or lord), fulfillment of the oath
grants a chance of a reward from the god.
Base Chance of Reward: 10%
This base chance is adjusted using the same modifiers that apply for broken
oaths. However, there is only a single roll (not a monthly roll) to see if a
reward is granted. This occurs when the oath is fulfilled, although the reward
may not manifest immediately.
The impact and duration of the reward can vary depending on the significance of
the oath. Examples include:
* Temporary increase in reaction bonus
* Temporary "luck" (+1/+5% to rolls)
* God provides or points the character to a monetary/magical reward.
* Increase a stat
* God sends the character a servant to assist him or to grant a boon
* Et cetera
The DM should attempt to be creative and try to come up with appropriate
omens and curses for broken oaths, and appropriate rewards for fulfilling an
oath. Impact and duration often correspond to the difficulty/importance and
duration of the oath, itself. Also, the gods are not pleased to be mocked,
and will look ill on a character who seeks reward by making numerous or trivial
oaths. A character engaging in such behavior may be surprised to receive an
ill-omen or curse instead of an expected reward.
It should be noted that gods are almost never personally involved in the
punishment or reward of the character. Instead, when some personal involvement
or interaction is necessary, the god sends servants or circumstances the
character's way.
## Oaths & Specific Deities
As has been mentioned, above, the nature of the deity involved may impact the
chances of punishment for oath-breaking and also the nature of any punishment
or reward. For example, a martial deity might be especially offended by a
broken oath which involved cowardice in battle, and be more inclined to
overlook transgressions if the PC displays bravery and success in battle.
Another potential factor is the degree of involvement the deity has in mortal
affairs. This is often a more important factor than the actual power of the
deity, and often means that demigods and lesser deities are more likely to
impose ill-omens or rewards than a greater deity that is more aloof and
removed from mortal concerns.
The alignment of the deity can also affect the liklihood of oath-related
punishments or rewards. Note that chaotic deities are usually just as likely
to take offense at a broken oath. In this case, it may not be a concern over
the offense to a concept like "justice" or "law", but the broken oath can be
seen as a personal insult where the oath-breaker thought little of the
god's power. A greater deity of pure, cosmic chaos might be the least likely
to take any offense (or even note) of a mortal oath. However, oaths made in
the name of such deities would hold little or no weight in mortal society.
As always, the DM is the final arbiter of such matters in his or her
campaign.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on October 20, 2023, 10:00:01 PM
# Oaths
In the world of Cromlech Tor oaths are serious business, as they are sealed by
invoking a god (or similar powerful entity) as a guarantee. The gods do not
take breaking of oaths made in their names lightly.
Consequently, kings, lords, and other authority figures often demand oaths
witnessed by a god from important followers. (This is not necessarily done for
every rank-and-file warrior in the king's service, as the gods do not look
kindly on trivial use of oaths. Such warriors might swear an oath, but not one
bound by a god. Such "temporal oaths" may have social consequences, but not
god-sent omens, curses, or rewards.)
## Oath-Breaking
When a character breaks an oath made in the name of a god, there is a monthly
chance the oath-breaker receives a response from the offended god. There is
typically only one response given for a particular broken oath. That is, once
the god responds, there is no need to continue rolling for additional responses
each month: the punishment has been given. If there is no response from the god
for a year, then there will be no response. (Thus, a broken oath means there
will be up to twelve rolls to see if the god responds.)
Base Chance of Response: 25%
Modifier Circumstance
---------- -------------------------------------------------------------------
-10% Personal oath made in secret
+5% Oath made before a few witnesses
+10% Oath made before many witnesses
+5-15% Oath made as part of a ritual
+10% Oath made at a place sacred to the god
+1% Level of character
Responses from gods punishing oath-breakers vary widely, and require DM judgment
to select a response appropriate to the circumstances, the god involved, the
individuals involved, et cetera. Responses typically involve omens and curses.
Examples of responses include:
* Partial Loss of Power (e.g., loss of 25%-50% of hit points, loss of some
spells, inability to regain spells, etc.)
* Cursed with Disease
* Cursed with Disfigurement or Disability
* Cursed with Magical Effect
- unusual/monstrous appearance
- unusual/offensive odor
- ill luck (penalty to all rolls)
- prodigious appetite
- inability to naturally heal
- nightmares/fatigue (penalty to rolls, etc.)
- provokes hostility/aggression from animals
- sours the taste of food & drink for the character and all around him or her
- followed by crows/flies/rats/etc.
- et cetera
* Hounded/Attacked by servants of the god
The duration of these omens and curses can vary, but tend to be measured in
months or years (or permanent), rather than in days or weeks.
When a character is suffering the effects of an omen or curse, they can attempt
to atone by performing actions pleasing to the offended god, which can also
vary widely. Possibilities include (but are not limited to):
* Heroic battle dedicated to and pleasing to the god
* Sacrifices of precious gems, metals, and creatures
* Performing actions to correct or counter the worldly consequences of the
broken oath.
* Intervention from another god (which comes with its own difficulties, usually
requiring the assistance of an opposing god of appropriate power).
* Completing a quest or pilgrimage assigned by the god or its servants
## Fulfilling An Oath
Oaths which can be fulfilled sometimes produce a reward. (Such rewards are not
as certain as punishment for oath-breaking, but they can occur.) Other oaths are
such that they can't be fulfilled with a granted reward in this life (e.g., an
oath to be wed until death).
For oaths which can be fulfilled during the life of the character (e.g., an
oath for a year of loyal service to a king or lord), fulfillment of the oath
grants a chance of a reward from the god.
Base Chance of Reward: 10%
This base chance is adjusted using the same modifiers that apply for broken
oaths. However, there is only a single roll (not a monthly roll) to see if a
reward is granted. This occurs when the oath is fulfilled, although the reward
may not manifest immediately.
The impact and duration of the reward can vary depending on the significance of
the oath. Examples include:
* Temporary increase in reaction bonus
* Temporary "luck" (+1/+5% to rolls)
* God provides or points the character to a monetary/magical reward.
* Increase a stat
* God sends the character a servant to assist him or to grant a boon
* Et cetera
The DM should attempt to be creative and try to come up with appropriate
omens and curses for broken oaths, and appropriate rewards for fulfilling an
oath. Impact and duration often correspond to the difficulty/importance and
duration of the oath, itself. Also, the gods are not pleased to be mocked,
and will look ill on a character who seeks reward by making numerous or trivial
oaths. A character engaging in such behavior may be surprised to receive an
ill-omen or curse instead of an expected reward.
It should be noted that gods are almost never personally involved in the
punishment or reward of the character. Instead, when some personal involvement
or interaction is necessary, the god sends servants or circumstances the
character's way.
## Oaths & Specific Deities
As has been mentioned, above, the nature of the deity involved may impact the
chances of punishment for oath-breaking and also the nature of any punishment
or reward. For example, a martial deity might be especially offended by a
broken oath which involved cowardice in battle, and be more inclined to
overlook transgressions if the PC displays bravery and success in battle.
Another potential factor is the degree of involvement the deity has in mortal
affairs. This is often a more important factor than the actual power of the
deity, and often means that demigods and lesser deities are more likely to
impose ill-omens or rewards than a greater deity that is more aloof and
removed from mortal concerns.
The alignment of the deity can also affect the liklihood of oath-related
punishments or rewards. Note that chaotic deities are usually just as likely
to take offense at a broken oath. In this case, it may not be a concern over
the offense to a concept like "justice" or "law", but the broken oath can be
seen as a personal insult where the oath-breaker thought little of the
god's power. A greater deity of pure, cosmic chaos might be the least likely
to take any offense (or even note) of a mortal oath. However, oaths made in
the name of such deities would hold little or no weight in mortal society.
As always, the DM is the final arbiter of such matters in his or her
campaign.
Interesting. Is this your own thing?
Quote from: Trond on October 20, 2023, 10:55:10 PM
Interesting. Is this your own thing?
Yes, from my original D&D campaign and house rules.
Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on October 19, 2023, 03:24:15 AM
Sci-fi can also mean reputational economies, not necessarily cash based ones. Eclipse Phase, for example, has a pretty nice (and extensive) section about traditional, reputational and transitional economies and how they interact with each other. Long story short, if in reputational economies you have the means to honor a debt (meaning: you're asked to perform a service as payment for a service you received earlier) and you don't do it your Rep score takes a plunge. Do it one time too much and you're cut off from everything until reparations are made.
Clearly, and not just sci-fi.
As noted, I was reply to "Dave 2" who mentioned socio-economic class and replied in kind. They are, however, obviously not exclusive. Consider a certain wealthy businessman in America that has a high socio-economic class, but is noted for stiffing those he owes for money (unless they represent other powerful interests).
Quote from: BadApple on October 18, 2023, 09:45:35 PM
By extension, would that mean that a low SOC PC could improve his stat through being honest and dependable?
Over time, yes. And "honest and dependable" would be for big things, at least considered one at a time. Finishing a job to recover a starship and return it to its original owner would be worth a boost, finishing a street level job would not. Paying off an eye-popping gambling debt worth a boost, paying off a regular one not. Honest + dependable in small things might add up to one boost over time if they were scrupulous, but not as fast and easy.
Quote from: Kage2020 on October 21, 2023, 11:09:37 PM
... "Dave 2" who mentioned socio-economic class ...
Well, I didn't quite, but I also see there's no reason you'd assume all my assumptions.
Social Standing is a stat in Traveller. Roughly corresponds to Charisma, a stat Traveller lacks, but is described differently. Definitely a point where you can tell the game was originally written by a Brit not a Burgerlander. The highest Soc scores either correspond to or qualify for actual titles of nobility in the Third Imperium, a sort of techno-neo-feudal mercantile space empire.
More generally, Traveller deliberately sets out to be Age of Sail in Space - FTL travel but no FTL communications means independent but reliable agents are highly desired. So a pre-20th century sense of honor may come into play. And new (usually non-hereditary) noble titles are most often granted for "service to the Imperium" - at its best, independent action in service of a higher authority.
Then what I was saying (without laying out my thinking) is I'm thinking of taking that Social Standing (again, already tied to ranks of nobility at the highest levels) and giving it more of an Honor-from-Pendragon twist.
All of which is to say, 21st century America is not the intended baseline of socio-economic status I'm working from.
Quote from: Dave 2 on October 24, 2023, 10:05:59 PM
Well, I didn't quite, but I also see there's no reason you'd assume all my assumptions.
Now that I re-read it, you're right. It's been a long time since I've looked at
Traveller so I read too much into the terms, which is silly because even if I were to solely go from a gaming perspective my current (preferred) system rightly differentiates this into thinks like "rank", "wealth", "reputation" etc.
Apparently, even while I'm an anthropologist / archaeologist by training, when you're in the zone of creating for your current game (
GURPS interpretation of
Earthdawn) you can get conceptual myopia.