Quote from: migo on March 29, 2023, 08:36:44 AM
But are the Owlbears the result of Bears breeding with Owls, and the Centaurs the result of Humans breeding with Horses?

They are chimeras created by angry gods.

Quote from: migo on March 29, 2023, 08:36:44 AMBut are the Owlbears the result of Bears breeding with Owls

After all the crap that went down with the OGL, I decided to come up with a unique version of the Owlbear as a faerie monster that was created by a powerful and angry Phooka who wanted a forest creature to sic on humans that trespass in fae territory. Let's just say that its not a hybrid PER SE and more like a fusion that can split its body while retaining its consciousness.

So for my own setting, I've settled on an answer and worked out most details with my co-author. There are four core races that unified to form the heart of the Solar Empire: dwarves, elves, humans, and orcs.

By my cosmology, dwarves were created first - being born of the Earth in darkness before the sun and moon were put in the sky. Elves were created second when the Sun, Moon, and stars were put in the sky and plants grew on the Earth - they are plant-aligned and vegetarian. Humans were created third after animals were sent out, and are omnivorous. And orcs were created last to spread and wake up the world, and are carnivorous. That makes a sequence of

dwarves -> elves -> humans -> orcs

Only adjacent types in this line can have children together. So there are half-orc/half-human (called half-orc), half-human/half-elf (called half-elf), and half-elf/half-dwarf (called half-dwarf). In the broader setting, these three mixed types are only possible because the Sun God Inti blessed the union of these four races as the founding core of the empire.

I like this because it fits well with both the character of the established D&D races, and the pseudo-Incan cosmology. Plus it keeps compatibility with standard D&D options with only one addition (half-dwarves).

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Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 29, 2023, 09:26:06 AM
You are asking the wrong question here. A half-Dwarf/half-Gnome PC isn't a Dwarf PC that falls in love with a Gnome, but it is a character whose parents are a Dwarf and a Gnome. So in order to limit a PC racial choice, you don't have to explain my it is impossible for a dwarf and a gnome to have a child but only explain why this doesn't happen often enough to be a basic in-game racial choice.

And for that, there are an endless number of excuses, from physical proximity, standards of beauty, cultural norms, or even preferred diets, all that would make certain mixes highly unlikely.

Cultural compatibility seems more like a stretched excuse to me. In existing D&D settings, human/elf and human/orc are not the two race pairs with the best cultural relations. Most of the demi-humans - like elves and gnomes - get along with each other better than with humans. And orcs don't get along well with most of the rest of the races.

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Quote from: migo on March 29, 2023, 09:53:53 AM
The Half-Elf also throws a wrench in things, because you can already play an Elf. Normally a Half-Race is to let you kind of play a Monster that isn't otherwise allowed. You can't play an Orc, but you can play a Half-Orc. You can't play an Ogre, but you can play a Half-Ogre. These are also Evil enemy species. Elves can be played, and they're Good allies. So the Half-Elf is completely unnecessary. I don't think anyone would miss the Half-Elf as an option when Elf stays an option.

So the way to do it is to make Elves xenophobes that rarely come out, so you don't get to play an Elf PC, but you can play a Half-Elf. Halflings and Gnomes are social enough you can play them anyway. And while Dwarves are somewhat xenophobic, they're not as extreme as Elves. Then you've got Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Half-Orc, Half-Elf and maybe Half-something else.

Elves as PCs is pretty ingrained now within D&D games. I think it would be weird to have a world where elves existed, but they weren't allowed as PCs. Also, not missing half-elf makes sense from a game-play perspective - but I don't think it makes sense from a perspective of world logic. I would want consistent logic about what half-breeds are possible regardless of who the PCs are.

Can a Duergar and a Dwarf interbreed? I mean they are the same size, and Duergars ARE Dwarfs...

But one is an Evil Culture while the other is a Good culture, so cultural norms/cultural incompatibility could play a role, there MIGHT be some Duergar/Dwarf mutts out there, but they should be extremely rare.

A strictly Matriarchal race and a strictly Patriarchal one, can they interbreed? Hell change race for culture and you'll still have the same issue, they can but will they?

A race/culture that borders germophobia with one that thinks bathing is for weaklings... They might be able to interbreed, but will they?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 02:42:31 PM
Can a Duergar and a Dwarf interbreed? I mean they are the same size, and Duergars ARE Dwarfs...

But one is an Evil Culture while the other is a Good culture, so cultural norms/cultural incompatibility could play a role, there MIGHT be some Duergar/Dwarf mutts out there, but they should be extremely rare.

A strictly Matriarchal race and a strictly Patriarchal one, can they interbreed? Hell change race for culture and you'll still have the same issue, they can but will they?

As I said, if cultural incompatibility is the explanation, then we should see lots of gnome/elf or dwarf/halfling and similar mixes more often than human/orc or even human/elf.

In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.

Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.

It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM

Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.

It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.

If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.

But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM

Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.

It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.

If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.

But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".

In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.

Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".

From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM
Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".

Correction:  Wanting to play something that is not approved for the campaign setting is looked down as trying to be a special snowflake.  Specifically, the campaign setting as done at that table, not necessarily in sync with the outside sources.  The decision on what is approved varies considerably.  Sometimes it is limited to the "playable races" for that campaign. Sometimes it is limited to the races with a history in that campaign, normally playable or not.  Sometimes it is limited as the previous sentence, but only after an experienced player has encountered that race and interacted with them.

I typically limit it to whatever playable races were agreed when we started the thing.  Though some races I'll never agree to allow, and others only in certain cases.  Someone else wants to have a campaign with a particular flair outside my GM limits is welcome to run it anytime they want. 

What I think pretty much is nigh universal on these forums is that a player doesn't waltz into an established campaign and get whatever the heck they want, with total disregard for the setting and the preferences of everyone else at the table.  Furthermore, I think most of us agree that while, yes, it is possible to twist things around to fit a lot of things that don't seem to on the surface, that trying to do so is wrong-headed, in a "tail wagging the dog" manner. 

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM

Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.

It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.

If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.

But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".

In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.

Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".

From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?

I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.

I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.

Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.

IF after I have informed you (the royal you) of what the world/campaign is about and what is or isn't in it, you still want to play a ninja in my Incan inspired campaign then you clearly aren't a good fit for the game or my table, ever. But it's NOT because Ninjas aren't on the book, it's because Ninjas don't fit the campaign.

With one exception, give me a good reasoned explanation of why I'm wrong and your concept totally can fit. I can be convinced, but not "because the book says so".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM

Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.

It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.

If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.

But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".

In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.

Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".

From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?

I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.

I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.

Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.

IF after I have informed you (the royal you) of what the world/campaign is about and what is or isn't in it, you still want to play a ninja in my Incan inspired campaign then you clearly aren't a good fit for the game or my table, ever. But it's NOT because Ninjas aren't on the book, it's because Ninjas don't fit the campaign.

With one exception, give me a good reasoned explanation of why I'm wrong and your concept totally can fit. I can be convinced, but not "because the book says so".

My explanation would be "I was using 'ninja' as shorthand for 'stealthy assassin and master of disguise from the underclasses of society."

Because absent the exotic cultural mystique given things, most elements boil down to something present in all societies in some fashion, because despite all the surface differences people are mostly people and so the same sorts of institutions and roles develop.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 06, 2023, 02:07:48 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM

Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.

It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.

If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.

But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".

In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.

Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".

From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?

I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.

I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.

Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.

IF after I have informed you (the royal you) of what the world/campaign is about and what is or isn't in it, you still want to play a ninja in my Incan inspired campaign then you clearly aren't a good fit for the game or my table, ever. But it's NOT because Ninjas aren't on the book, it's because Ninjas don't fit the campaign.

With one exception, give me a good reasoned explanation of why I'm wrong and your concept totally can fit. I can be convinced, but not "because the book says so".

My explanation would be "I was using 'ninja' as shorthand for 'stealthy assassin and master of disguise from the underclasses of society."

Because absent the exotic cultural mystique given things, most elements boil down to something present in all societies in some fashion, because despite all the surface differences people are mostly people and so the same sorts of institutions and roles develop.

That's a good explanation up to a point, we don't have ANYTHING like ninjas in other cultures except the Japanese, as long as you're willing to forego those elements of the class that do not fit the campaign (for example throwing stars, katanas, exploding balls, etc) I might allow it. You would also need to convince me of HOW your character became a master of disguise, since in the Incan culture there wasn't (AFAWK) a school for stealthy master of disguise assassins.

But you and I know THAT type of gamer, there's a reason I used Ninja as the example.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM
I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.

I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.

Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.

I think we're miscommunicating here. Because I agree about this, and that's exactly what I'm doing. The origin of this thread was about trying to reason out what half or mixed races were possible in my campaign, and I ended up coming up with one new half race (dwarf/elf) and an explanation why others weren't possible.

For my specific current campaign, I'm trying to minimize the learning curve for players over fantasy options -- so one of my principles was to support all the races and classes in the Player's Handbook. I felt learning the environment and culture was enough, so I wanted the fantasy and game options to be simple and familiar. But that's not something I do with every campaign.

For example, in a campaign a few years ago, it was a mirror world where the only allowed PC races were orc, kobold, goblin, and a few others -- humans and demi-humans were inherently evil and unsuitable as PCs.

---

To rephrase what I'm saying about half races:

The core D&D rules allow two half races and possibly one non-half mixed race (stout halflings). This opens up all sorts of questions about all the other possible mixed races. I reject any explanation "well, it's not in the book, so it's not possible". Logically, if races can interbreed, then there should be gnome/elf or a lightfoot dwarf who gets stealth bonuses for halfling blood. But as SHARK said, if all mixes are possible, then quickly there are an overwhelming number of options.

Each game setting and/or campaign has to answer about which other half races or mixed races are possible either as NPCs or PCs.

I was trying to answer that question for my campaign setting, and hearing about how other people reasoned it out for their campaign settings.

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 03:16:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM
I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.

I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.

Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.

I think we're miscommunicating here. Because I agree about this, and that's exactly what I'm doing. The origin of this thread was about trying to reason out what half or mixed races were possible in my campaign, and I ended up coming up with one new half race (dwarf/elf) and an explanation why others weren't possible.

For my specific current campaign, I'm trying to minimize the learning curve for players over fantasy options -- so one of my principles was to support all the races and classes in the Player's Handbook. I felt learning the environment and culture was enough, so I wanted the fantasy and game options to be simple and familiar. But that's not something I do with every campaign.

For example, in a campaign a few years ago, it was a mirror world where the only allowed PC races were orc, kobold, goblin, and a few others -- humans and demi-humans were inherently evil and unsuitable as PCs.

---

To rephrase what I'm saying about half races:

The core D&D rules allow two half races and possibly one non-half mixed race (stout halflings). This opens up all sorts of questions about all the other possible mixed races. I reject any explanation "well, it's not in the book, so it's not possible". Logically, if races can interbreed, then there should be gnome/elf or a lightfoot dwarf who gets stealth bonuses for halfling blood. But as SHARK said, if all mixes are possible, then quickly there are an overwhelming number of options.

Each game setting and/or campaign has to answer about which other half races or mixed races are possible either as NPCs or PCs.

I was trying to answer that question for my campaign setting, and hearing about how other people reasoned it out for their campaign settings.

Never mind the number of options, is the new halfbreed mechanically different enough to be interesting? Maybe it isn't but it brings some new and interesting conflict/concept to the game.

Plus, it was understood by the designers and consultants (hello there Pundit!) that the DMs would change things around, removing or adding stuff to THEIR game. No designer EVER can predict all of the changes different people will inflict upon his baby.

It's why Kevin Crawfords's products are so well received, he gives you a full game and tons of tools to make it your own.

I don't care much about what is or isn't "allowed" by the book, unless it's a totally new (to me) system, then I will play/run it as close to RAW as possible, after getting familiarized with it then I might make changes if I want to run it again.

You're running a Pseudo-Incan campaign, and you allowed elves, dwarves, etc. I wouldn't have allowed that, I would have come up with new races and classes, as I'm doing with my Mayan inspired game, it's Pseudo-Mayan too, because I'm not gonna try and make it "authentic" because we know jack shit about Mayan culture and because it's not MY cup of tea, I want high fantasy but with a twist.

You created a new halfbreed, I have none, because the gods created each race from different stuff, they can't interbreed.

Humans
Clay People
Monkey People
Tree People (this one is proving the more challenging to do right)
*Jaguar People (might not end up in the game, still not sure, or it might replace the tree people, who knows?)

Warrior, Wizard, Cleric, Thief?* (Not sure about thief tho)

Might switch to OSE Advanced for the chassis.