It's not just elves and orcs.

The variety of Halfling is explained by being part dwarf (stout) or elf (tallfellow). And Brownies are supposed to be half pixie, half halfling.

I think really the other races can interbreed, but the result is simply one of its parents. A human-dwarf might result in a short human or tall-ish dwarf.

I honestly have a hard time a non-Tolkien setting with orcs. Dark sun killed them (but it has half-dwarves), Ravnica has none, and I don't remember what's their role in Planescape or Eberron.

It's the same old conundrum of familiarity and creativity. It's hard to do both.

I was writing a book on races myself, and had decided half-races are up to the GM (which is what 6e does, apparently).

Also... tieflings are half-fiend, dragon-born are partly dragon, etc. All humanoids are human plus something. Maybe dswarfes are half-stone and elves are half-plant. Not sure about halflings, but I often see gnomes as the elven version of dwarves: leaner, more magical, etc. Maybe they are hybrids too?

In a fantasy world with a lot of magic, it's entirely possible that all the races are human with various mystical aspects relating to tribal traditions and rituals.  Orcs might have a boar aspect and elves a tree aspect but beneath that they're all human.  It seems likely that mixed parentage would favour one tradition or the other in such a case.

Runequest gives us rune aspects, Trolls have the man rune and darkness rune.

Shadowrun has humans change into various races when the magic returns so, outside of magical influence, everyone is human.

Ursula K LeGuin's Earthsea is a world with plentiful shape changing magic and the humans and dragons are actually one sundered kindred with the creator being a dragon.  Trolls went extinct after the first short story.

Dave Duncan's a man of his world had all the races as human nationalities.  That's probably completely unacceptable these days but they were all human and acknowledge each other as such.  Also probably completely unacceptable these days.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 27, 2023, 06:42:04 PMor... humans ARE the elf/orc hybrids.

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.

One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.


If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?

Notably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AM
Notably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.

That does raise one issue I've had in trying to understand that world. I love Tolkien as much as your average rpg nerd, but does anyone really understand how half-elf longevity works? I get they can choose to be an immortal elf, but if they opt for the human path they still live for hundreds or thousands of years despite being mortal. I think I would have preferred it if the distinction between the two options was a bit more clear-cut. I'm assuming that choosing the human side means they still live until something kills them and then won't reincarnate, but I can't recall ever seeing it spelled out in the books.

Quote from: Brand55 on March 28, 2023, 01:13:38 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AM
Notably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.

That does raise one issue I've had in trying to understand that world. I love Tolkien as much as your average rpg nerd, but does anyone really understand how half-elf longevity works? I get they can choose to be an immortal elf, but if they opt for the human path they still live for hundreds or thousands of years despite being mortal. I think I would have preferred it if the distinction between the two options was a bit more clear-cut. I'm assuming that choosing the human side means they still live until something kills them and then won't reincarnate, but I can't recall ever seeing it spelled out in the books.

Well it's a setting where there are Ubermensch versions of humans, that lived for hundreds of years. I mean Aragorn lives to be over 200, and he's somewhat watered down from the old breed.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.

Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.

Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 01:26:32 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.

Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.

Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 28, 2023, 01:40:56 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 01:26:32 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.

Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.

Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.

I wouldn't be throwing that stone in this glass house.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 01:26:32 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.

Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.

Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.

Yeah. My point was, being a half-elf in Tolkien was a Big Hairy Deal. Pretty rare (The immediate children of three couples) and they could choose which race to belong to regarding their longevity and eventual fate. (Elves and Men went to different afterlife destinations)

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half.

the "only to half" part could be explained by introducing a kind of real word biology - they could all be infertile. that would also deal with why there were no human-orc-elf-dwarf-<whathaveyou> hybrids.
but then again, that would not be very Tolkien.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 27, 2023, 06:42:04 PM

Quote from: migo on March 27, 2023, 06:12:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.

One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.


If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?

It could be that elves, orcs and humans are of the same stock. Humans aren't quite so strong in their hatred, so you have human-elf and human-orc, while elves and orcs are so strong in their hatred of each other that while theoretically possible, never happens. Orcs don't normally leave elf survivors, and vice versa.

or... humans ARE the elf/orc hybrids.

Now that's an interesting take.

In times long past, there were just elves and orcs, slaughtering each other. Eventually some from both sides decided to make peace. Created a new community, inter-bred, and eventually pure orcs and elves were gone, only leaving humans. Elves being extremely long lived still remember this, and have a latent distrust of humans for this reason. Orcs don't, but they sense some elf in humans, and will attack them just the same. Every now and then the orc senses orc in the human, and doesn't go to kill. And every now and then an elf doesn't care that humans are part orc.

You have three core races: dwarf, elf, and human

Half-elves descend from human-elf pairings
Halflings descend from human-dwarf pairings
Gnomes descend from dwarf-elf pairings

Orcs are magically corrupted elves, so...
Dark gnomes are dwarf-orc descendants
Half-orcs are human-orc descendants
Drow are orc-elf descendants

@jhkim

I read your setting introduction. I like it... but there are things about it where I have serious questions.

Are your choice in races strictly based on gaming-considerations? I mean, you're going off-roading with the Incan milieu but you're using D&D races as a homogenous culture which demands its own setting assumptions (which I'm assuming you have worked out in your head)...

But it seems like a handwavium to me and does the concept of your setting a little bit of a disservice. The Elves and Dwarves as the elder-races implies directly that they have inhabited this setting "long"(?) before humans, and thus with the rise of humanity, the implications of assimilation into a mono-culture under the Sun-God assumes that they either had cultural beliefs that ran in-line with the humans and their Sun-God worship. So much so, that the Elves and Dwarves would subsume their own cultures and merge into the Human's *and* interbreed with them.

The unspoken "thing" is that any conflicts of that assimilation would surely have sub-cultural artifacts. They may be "good/bad" but to me those elements demand that you have actual cultural distinctions between races that existed pre-assimilation. I believe those are very important otherwise why have these other races at all?

Which is why I'm asking - why use D&D races at all? (If it's to adhere to "D&D" formalities - I get it, but I think your setting deserves it's own array of ancestries imo).

So when it comes to "which" races can cross-breed? I think if you understand the cultural underpinnings that lead to the homogenous nature of the Empire as you're proposing it answers those questions pretty easily. But I also think there is a tremendous amount of setting flavor that is missing but implied by the your setup that could give a *lot* of context to your world that would make having these non-human races, including half-breeds cultural relevance.

It might be that the Elves have a different nuanced view of the metaphysics (or none at all) of the Sun God culture. Same with the Dwarves. As to whether they can all interbreed - just make sure *any* kind of interbreeding has a cultural relevance, otherwise what's the point?

The design will demand the need. Otherwise unless you're just trying to do "D&D" where anything can exist "because it's D&D" it feels limp and frankly it undercuts the uniqueness of your setting.

I think any "crossbreeding" should be allowed only if 1) the setting demands it 2) it is relevant and useful AND cool. If you have to force that, then I'd leave it alone.