As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.

One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.


If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?

Gygax said those races were created for the min maxers.

There's plenty of precedent for other half-races out there, especially among D&D settings. Midnight, for instance, had orcs able to produce offspring with most of the other races; most such conceptions were rather unpleasant given how orcs are murderous conquerors working for the Big Bad in that setting. I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.

Then there are other examples like The Elder Scrolls video games where crossbreeding occurs but, IIRC, all offspring match the mother's race. So you could do something similar where one parent's race is the determining factor for the child's race, possibly with some minor features of the other parent added in.

Kind of depends on how/what you want to do with it.  Interestingly, in Castles & Crusades, clearly inspired by Tolkien, half-elf PCs choose whether they favor the human or elven parent and have different special abilities depending upon the choice.  I like this mechanic a lot.

In the 1e Monster Manual it says "As orcs will breed with anything, there are any number of unsavory mongrels with orcish blood, particularly orc-goblins, orc-hobgoblins, and orc-humans.  Orcs cannot cross-breed with elves.  Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily....though they can sometimes (10%) pass themselves off as true creatures of the other stock." (p. 76)  In the PHB (p. 17) it notes that PC half-orcs are part of this superior 10%.  Incidentally, in the module A0, the villain is a half-orc/dwarf.  And in LOTR Saruman was breeding men with orcs.  So you can decide what to do there.  MERP created a raft of mixed races, usually to be NPC villains, like half-trolls, demon trolls, etc.

As for other races, you've probably got plenty of latitude to decide what can breed with what.  In Hackmaster 4e, they have gnomelings, which are halfling/gnome crossbreeds.

Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 04:37:09 PM
I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.

Exactly. But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?

To me, the half race is a mechanical work-around to having races (or even race as class) in a relatively simple game.  If you've got a simple game, and you've got six or seven races, with one of them of mixed descent, then sure, why not?  I've always though taking "half elf" literally was the wrong move, anyway, as it is meant to partially represent the idea that somewhere in the ancestry tree was an elf or human, and that's tweaked things a bit.  That is, I take "half elf" to occasionally mean 1/2, but sometimes 1/4 or 1/8, or more--or even 3/16 or whatever if you've got more than one source of the smaller part. 

Generally, I prefer that most of my settings don't have mixes at all, outside magical or divine interference (definitely no bad pun intended!).  So no half-anything, and everything that got special parentage through a non-standard source is a one-off.

In the rare occasions where I do want more, then I want a better system than simply declaring another race as the mix.  If the mix is pervasive, there has to be some kind of rhyme and reason to it, even if it still has a fair dose of the supernatural.  I'd expect to see some kind of genetic tree--though likely more fantastical genetics than real-world biology.  After all, if "fire" and "wood" are some of the basic building blocks of the universe in a fantasy setting, then it makes sense that some creatures have more or less than others.

However, given your goal of supporting the D&D options, I think coherence is out the window, barring a full-scale fantasy genetics effort.  Such a process is going to produce some very non-D&D-ish results.

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 05:33:04 PM

Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 04:37:09 PM
I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.

Exactly. But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?

Greetings!

In my Thandor world, I have several prominent "Half-Races". Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Half-Demons, Half-Celestials, Half-Dragons, Half-Fey, Half-Ogre, and Half-Troll. Those are the most prominent. There are a few others, but that is about it. Then, I have a kind of generalized mutant, hybrid race--that are typically human and *Whatever else*. The generalized hybrid race can stand in for whatever bizarre race mixing that seems appropriate. After you reach a point of say, 6, or 12, it becomes increasingly difficult to define any meaningful mechanical distinctions, with the resulting creation being largely cosmetic. That is the primary end-point. However, conceptually, it can also get into a frame where even trying to imagine particular distinctions--in a meaningful game-related manner--becomes ridiculous and ultimately futile. I found such continued efforts to be frustrating and dissatisfactory, so, I simply went back and identified where the clear and meaningful distinctions *end*. Going beyond such  point, I concluded, is ridiculous and pointless.

The generalized hybrid race allows for an *in-game* dynamic, which theoretically could exist--and would certainly be a reality to the individuals or small communities composed of such hybrids--but from the higher, design-perspective, there isn't anything mechanically *there* necessarily, beyond the basic profile I had established for them. I also concluded that is also therefore sufficient.

Also, from a playability standpoint, it also gets confusing, ridiculous, and bizarre. For example, take Human, Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Gnome, Minotaur, Wolf people, Troll, and Ogre. Now imagine half-breed races amongst *ALL OF THEM*. Then, perhaps add in other fantastic racial contributions--as well as other animal hybrids--and the numbers of potential Half Races become mind-boggling. So, yeah, I cut that down quick. I've experimented with it, and it ultimately becomes mechanically unworkable, but also a cross-eyed exercise in turning yourself into a creative pretzel.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.

One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.


If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?

It could be that elves, orcs and humans are of the same stock. Humans aren't quite so strong in their hatred, so you have human-elf and human-orc, while elves and orcs are so strong in their hatred of each other that while theoretically possible, never happens. Orcs don't normally leave elf survivors, and vice versa.

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 05:33:04 PM

Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 04:37:09 PM
I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.

Exactly. But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?

That's entirely up to the setting. Maybe it's science; say Race X and Race Y are closely enough related to produce offspring, but they can't with Race Z. For example, say in a given setting that orcs and humans actually descended from elves, so they can all interbreed. Or maybe some races are from different planes/dimensions and only the "native" races can produce offspring together.

Or maybe there's a divine influence--different gods created different races, and they can only reproduce with each other, not the races of other gods. So if Bob, the God of Basket-Weaving, made elves, orcs, and humans, they'd all be able to freely interbreed. Maybe being able to produce mixed offspring is a gift from the gods so only those races of allied gods can procreate together.

There could also be a single magical race that, because of their arcane nature or some other feature, are the only race able to reproduce with others.

And it could be several reasons--humans and elves are bound by fate and can reproduce, whereas orcs are a corrupting force who can breed with anyone because of their nature and only human-orc offspring are likely to be able to overcome their baser impulses.

Quote from: migo on March 27, 2023, 06:12:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.

One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.


If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?

It could be that elves, orcs and humans are of the same stock. Humans aren't quite so strong in their hatred, so you have human-elf and human-orc, while elves and orcs are so strong in their hatred of each other that while theoretically possible, never happens. Orcs don't normally leave elf survivors, and vice versa.

or... humans ARE the elf/orc hybrids.

D&D seems to be missing lings.
How can you have halflings without lings? 
Asking for a fiend.

I have Half-Ogres just cause I think having a potentially playable race of big dumb brutes is okay. I also technically have Half-Fae, but its kind of a moot point in my setting since they would be counted as fae no matter what (and this goes for Fetches, who are children kidnapped by the fae and brought to live with them in the Underworld).

Edit: Oh yea, the reason I have it that Ogres, Orks, Elves and Men can interbreed to produce "half" offspring is they're all descended from a common ancestor.....

In my settings, i tend to not allow half-races. I want my elves to seem alien who just so happen to look kinda human (heck, in my last campaign I didn't allow elves as PCs).

And this might just be a personal hang up for of me, but I don't allow half Orcs, just because I don't like the, erm.... implications. Read the descriptions for orcs in any edition and ask "does this guy sound like a tender lover?". I tend to have my orcs be more like Warhammer, where they're "grown" instead of birthed.

Half races can kind of make some sense in Tolkien because all of creation in Tolkien is part of the creation of Iluvatar. It's a bit weirder in a cosmology like typical D&D multiverse, where deities have their own planes and unique afterlives. Where do half-breed souls go after death? Half to Gruumsh's realm, half to Pelor's?

Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 06:16:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 05:33:04 PM
But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?

That's entirely up to the setting. Maybe it's science; say Race X and Race Y are closely enough related to produce offspring, but they can't with Race Z. For example, say in a given setting that orcs and humans actually descended from elves, so they can all interbreed. Or maybe some races are from different planes/dimensions and only the "native" races can produce offspring together.

Or maybe there's a divine influence--different gods created different races, and they can only reproduce with each other, not the races of other gods.

Yes, it's a setting question - sorry if I wasn't making that clear. So I'm wondering among those here who have made D&D-ish settings, what logic do you use? I'm wrestling with how to answer that for my own setting, so I'm curious how other people have approached it.

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2023, 06:06:35 PM
Also, from a playability standpoint, it also gets confusing, ridiculous, and bizarre. For example, take Human, Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Gnome, Minotaur, Wolf people, Troll, and Ogre. Now imagine half-breed races amongst *ALL OF THEM*. Then, perhaps add in other fantastic racial contributions--as well as other animal hybrids--and the numbers of potential Half Races become mind-boggling. So, yeah, I cut that down quick. I've experimented with it, and it ultimately becomes mechanically unworkable, but also a cross-eyed exercise in turning yourself into a creative pretzel.

Right. I agree that it's a potential mess. But then what's the internal world logic for shutting this down? For example, if a dwarf PC takes a romantic liking to a gnome NPC, do they think they can start a family? If they ask an oracle why they can't, what would the answer be?

---

The setting for my current campaign is co-created by me. It is centered on the Solar Empire -- a fantasy empire inspired by the Inca. The core races that founded the empire are dwarf, elf, orc, and human. Along the lines of King Arthur and other high fantasy, the empire is the coming together of different sides for a holy cause. Based on this, I might say that Inti (the sun god) enables half-breeds as his blessing on the union of the empire. But with just these four core races, there are six possible half-breeds, which still seems like a bit much.

I'm considering that maybe I should arrange these four along a spectrum, and only adjacent ones can interbreed. That would make only three half-breeds. That might be: dwarf <-> elf <-> human <-> orc. If so, then I should support a half-dwarf/half-elf. I'd have to think about what I'd do with that.

If it weren't for our principle of supporting core D&D options, I'd be tempted to just do away with half-races. But I'd like to find a way to make it fit while still keeping with the theme and feel of the world as a whole. Here's my working setting doc, for reference:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19ZadR7QUcyFsZ7u5x1MukSgY2cA7_CmZog7MgrxcxCU/