As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.
One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.
If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?
Gygax said those races were created for the min maxers.
There's plenty of precedent for other half-races out there, especially among D&D settings. Midnight, for instance, had orcs able to produce offspring with most of the other races; most such conceptions were rather unpleasant given how orcs are murderous conquerors working for the Big Bad in that setting. I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.
Then there are other examples like The Elder Scrolls video games where crossbreeding occurs but, IIRC, all offspring match the mother's race. So you could do something similar where one parent's race is the determining factor for the child's race, possibly with some minor features of the other parent added in.
Kind of depends on how/what you want to do with it. Interestingly, in Castles & Crusades, clearly inspired by Tolkien, half-elf PCs choose whether they favor the human or elven parent and have different special abilities depending upon the choice. I like this mechanic a lot.
In the 1e Monster Manual it says "As orcs will breed with anything, there are any number of unsavory mongrels with orcish blood, particularly orc-goblins, orc-hobgoblins, and orc-humans. Orcs cannot cross-breed with elves. Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily....though they can sometimes (10%) pass themselves off as true creatures of the other stock." (p. 76) In the PHB (p. 17) it notes that PC half-orcs are part of this superior 10%. Incidentally, in the module A0, the villain is a half-orc/dwarf. And in LOTR Saruman was breeding men with orcs. So you can decide what to do there. MERP created a raft of mixed races, usually to be NPC villains, like half-trolls, demon trolls, etc.
As for other races, you've probably got plenty of latitude to decide what can breed with what. In Hackmaster 4e, they have gnomelings, which are halfling/gnome crossbreeds.
Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 04:37:09 PM
I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.
Exactly. But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?
To me, the half race is a mechanical work-around to having races (or even race as class) in a relatively simple game. If you've got a simple game, and you've got six or seven races, with one of them of mixed descent, then sure, why not? I've always though taking "half elf" literally was the wrong move, anyway, as it is meant to partially represent the idea that somewhere in the ancestry tree was an elf or human, and that's tweaked things a bit. That is, I take "half elf" to occasionally mean 1/2, but sometimes 1/4 or 1/8, or more--or even 3/16 or whatever if you've got more than one source of the smaller part.
Generally, I prefer that most of my settings don't have mixes at all, outside magical or divine interference (definitely no bad pun intended!). So no half-anything, and everything that got special parentage through a non-standard source is a one-off.
In the rare occasions where I do want more, then I want a better system than simply declaring another race as the mix. If the mix is pervasive, there has to be some kind of rhyme and reason to it, even if it still has a fair dose of the supernatural. I'd expect to see some kind of genetic tree--though likely more fantastical genetics than real-world biology. After all, if "fire" and "wood" are some of the basic building blocks of the universe in a fantasy setting, then it makes sense that some creatures have more or less than others.
However, given your goal of supporting the D&D options, I think coherence is out the window, barring a full-scale fantasy genetics effort. Such a process is going to produce some very non-D&D-ish results.
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 04:37:09 PM
I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.
Exactly. But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?
Greetings!
In my Thandor world, I have several prominent "Half-Races". Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Half-Demons, Half-Celestials, Half-Dragons, Half-Fey, Half-Ogre, and Half-Troll. Those are the most prominent. There are a few others, but that is about it. Then, I have a kind of generalized mutant, hybrid race--that are typically human and *Whatever else*. The generalized hybrid race can stand in for whatever bizarre race mixing that seems appropriate. After you reach a point of say, 6, or 12, it becomes increasingly difficult to define any meaningful mechanical distinctions, with the resulting creation being largely cosmetic. That is the primary end-point. However, conceptually, it can also get into a frame where even trying to imagine particular distinctions--in a meaningful game-related manner--becomes ridiculous and ultimately futile. I found such continued efforts to be frustrating and dissatisfactory, so, I simply went back and identified where the clear and meaningful distinctions *end*. Going beyond such point, I concluded, is ridiculous and pointless.
The generalized hybrid race allows for an *in-game* dynamic, which theoretically could exist--and would certainly be a reality to the individuals or small communities composed of such hybrids--but from the higher, design-perspective, there isn't anything mechanically *there* necessarily, beyond the basic profile I had established for them. I also concluded that is also therefore sufficient.
Also, from a playability standpoint, it also gets confusing, ridiculous, and bizarre. For example, take Human, Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Gnome, Minotaur, Wolf people, Troll, and Ogre. Now imagine half-breed races amongst *ALL OF THEM*. Then, perhaps add in other fantastic racial contributions--as well as other animal hybrids--and the numbers of potential Half Races become mind-boggling. So, yeah, I cut that down quick. I've experimented with it, and it ultimately becomes mechanically unworkable, but also a cross-eyed exercise in turning yourself into a creative pretzel.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.
One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.
If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?
It could be that elves, orcs and humans are of the same stock. Humans aren't quite so strong in their hatred, so you have human-elf and human-orc, while elves and orcs are so strong in their hatred of each other that while theoretically possible, never happens. Orcs don't normally leave elf survivors, and vice versa.
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 04:37:09 PM
I think allowing for mixed races beyond the normal two is fine as long as you don't go too wild with it since it drastically increases the number of race options and that can be overwhelming to players.
Exactly. But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?
That's entirely up to the setting. Maybe it's science; say Race X and Race Y are closely enough related to produce offspring, but they can't with Race Z. For example, say in a given setting that orcs and humans actually descended from elves, so they can all interbreed. Or maybe some races are from different planes/dimensions and only the "native" races can produce offspring together.
Or maybe there's a divine influence--different gods created different races, and they can only reproduce with each other, not the races of other gods. So if Bob, the God of Basket-Weaving, made elves, orcs, and humans, they'd all be able to freely interbreed. Maybe being able to produce mixed offspring is a gift from the gods so only those races of allied gods can procreate together.
There could also be a single magical race that, because of their arcane nature or some other feature, are the only race able to reproduce with others.
And it could be several reasons--humans and elves are bound by fate and can reproduce, whereas orcs are a corrupting force who can breed with anyone because of their nature and only human-orc offspring are likely to be able to overcome their baser impulses.
Quote from: migo on March 27, 2023, 06:12:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.
One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.
If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?
It could be that elves, orcs and humans are of the same stock. Humans aren't quite so strong in their hatred, so you have human-elf and human-orc, while elves and orcs are so strong in their hatred of each other that while theoretically possible, never happens. Orcs don't normally leave elf survivors, and vice versa.
or... humans ARE the elf/orc hybrids.
D&D seems to be missing lings.
How can you have halflings without lings?
Asking for a fiend.
I have Half-Ogres just cause I think having a potentially playable race of big dumb brutes is okay. I also technically have Half-Fae, but its kind of a moot point in my setting since they would be counted as fae no matter what (and this goes for Fetches, who are children kidnapped by the fae and brought to live with them in the Underworld).
Edit: Oh yea, the reason I have it that Ogres, Orks, Elves and Men can interbreed to produce "half" offspring is they're all descended from a common ancestor.....
In my settings, i tend to not allow half-races. I want my elves to seem alien who just so happen to look kinda human (heck, in my last campaign I didn't allow elves as PCs).
And this might just be a personal hang up for of me, but I don't allow half Orcs, just because I don't like the, erm.... implications. Read the descriptions for orcs in any edition and ask "does this guy sound like a tender lover?". I tend to have my orcs be more like Warhammer, where they're "grown" instead of birthed.
Half races can kind of make some sense in Tolkien because all of creation in Tolkien is part of the creation of Iluvatar. It's a bit weirder in a cosmology like typical D&D multiverse, where deities have their own planes and unique afterlives. Where do half-breed souls go after death? Half to Gruumsh's realm, half to Pelor's?
Quote from: Brand55 on March 27, 2023, 06:16:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 05:33:04 PM
But wherever one puts the cutoff -- whether it's 2 or 4 or 9 -- the question is how does one justify in-world that those are the only possibilities?
That's entirely up to the setting. Maybe it's science; say Race X and Race Y are closely enough related to produce offspring, but they can't with Race Z. For example, say in a given setting that orcs and humans actually descended from elves, so they can all interbreed. Or maybe some races are from different planes/dimensions and only the "native" races can produce offspring together.
Or maybe there's a divine influence--different gods created different races, and they can only reproduce with each other, not the races of other gods.
Yes, it's a setting question - sorry if I wasn't making that clear. So I'm wondering among those here who have made D&D-ish settings, what logic do you use? I'm wrestling with how to answer that for my own setting, so I'm curious how other people have approached it.
Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2023, 06:06:35 PM
Also, from a playability standpoint, it also gets confusing, ridiculous, and bizarre. For example, take Human, Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Gnome, Minotaur, Wolf people, Troll, and Ogre. Now imagine half-breed races amongst *ALL OF THEM*. Then, perhaps add in other fantastic racial contributions--as well as other animal hybrids--and the numbers of potential Half Races become mind-boggling. So, yeah, I cut that down quick. I've experimented with it, and it ultimately becomes mechanically unworkable, but also a cross-eyed exercise in turning yourself into a creative pretzel.
Right. I agree that it's a potential mess. But then what's the internal world logic for shutting this down? For example, if a dwarf PC takes a romantic liking to a gnome NPC, do they think they can start a family? If they ask an oracle why they can't, what would the answer be?
---
The setting for my current campaign is co-created by me. It is centered on the Solar Empire -- a fantasy empire inspired by the Inca. The core races that founded the empire are dwarf, elf, orc, and human. Along the lines of King Arthur and other high fantasy, the empire is the coming together of different sides for a holy cause. Based on this, I might say that Inti (the sun god) enables half-breeds as his blessing on the union of the empire. But with just these four core races, there are six possible half-breeds, which still seems like a bit much.
I'm considering that maybe I should arrange these four along a spectrum, and only adjacent ones can interbreed. That would make only three half-breeds. That might be: dwarf <-> elf <-> human <-> orc. If so, then I should support a half-dwarf/half-elf. I'd have to think about what I'd do with that.
If it weren't for our principle of supporting core D&D options, I'd be tempted to just do away with half-races. But I'd like to find a way to make it fit while still keeping with the theme and feel of the world as a whole. Here's my working setting doc, for reference:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19ZadR7QUcyFsZ7u5x1MukSgY2cA7_CmZog7MgrxcxCU/
It's not just elves and orcs.
The variety of Halfling is explained by being part dwarf (stout) or elf (tallfellow). And Brownies are supposed to be half pixie, half halfling.
I think really the other races can interbreed, but the result is simply one of its parents. A human-dwarf might result in a short human or tall-ish dwarf.
I honestly have a hard time a non-Tolkien setting with orcs. Dark sun killed them (but it has half-dwarves), Ravnica has none, and I don't remember what's their role in Planescape or Eberron.
It's the same old conundrum of familiarity and creativity. It's hard to do both.
I was writing a book on races myself, and had decided half-races are up to the GM (which is what 6e does, apparently).
Also... tieflings are half-fiend, dragon-born are partly dragon, etc. All humanoids are human plus something. Maybe dswarfes are half-stone and elves are half-plant. Not sure about halflings, but I often see gnomes as the elven version of dwarves: leaner, more magical, etc. Maybe they are hybrids too?
In a fantasy world with a lot of magic, it's entirely possible that all the races are human with various mystical aspects relating to tribal traditions and rituals. Orcs might have a boar aspect and elves a tree aspect but beneath that they're all human. It seems likely that mixed parentage would favour one tradition or the other in such a case.
Runequest gives us rune aspects, Trolls have the man rune and darkness rune.
Shadowrun has humans change into various races when the magic returns so, outside of magical influence, everyone is human.
Ursula K LeGuin's Earthsea is a world with plentiful shape changing magic and the humans and dragons are actually one sundered kindred with the creator being a dragon. Trolls went extinct after the first short story.
Dave Duncan's a man of his world had all the races as human nationalities. That's probably completely unacceptable these days but they were all human and acknowledge each other as such. Also probably completely unacceptable these days.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 27, 2023, 06:42:04 PMor... humans ARE the elf/orc hybrids.
(https://i.imgflip.com/w1sh0.jpg)
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.
One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.
If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?
Notably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could
choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AM
Notably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.
That does raise one issue I've had in trying to understand that world. I love Tolkien as much as your average rpg nerd, but does anyone really understand how half-elf longevity works? I get they can choose to be an immortal elf, but if they opt for the human path they still live for hundreds or thousands of years despite being mortal. I think I would have preferred it if the distinction between the two options was a bit more clear-cut. I'm assuming that choosing the human side means they still live until something kills them and then won't reincarnate, but I can't recall ever seeing it spelled out in the books.
Quote from: Brand55 on March 28, 2023, 01:13:38 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AM
Notably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.
That does raise one issue I've had in trying to understand that world. I love Tolkien as much as your average rpg nerd, but does anyone really understand how half-elf longevity works? I get they can choose to be an immortal elf, but if they opt for the human path they still live for hundreds or thousands of years despite being mortal. I think I would have preferred it if the distinction between the two options was a bit more clear-cut. I'm assuming that choosing the human side means they still live until something kills them and then won't reincarnate, but I can't recall ever seeing it spelled out in the books.
Well it's a setting where there are Ubermensch versions of humans, that lived for hundreds of years. I mean Aragorn lives to be over 200, and he's somewhat watered down from the old breed.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.
Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.
Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 01:26:32 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.
Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.
Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/1ad6ac821affa2d55cf9092830851ee7/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 28, 2023, 01:40:56 AM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 01:26:32 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.
Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.
Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/1ad6ac821affa2d55cf9092830851ee7/tenor.gif)
I wouldn't be throwing that stone in this glass house. ;)
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 01:26:32 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 12:15:49 AMNotably, in Tolkien's Middle Earth, someone with elven blood and human blood could choose which race to belong to. Being a half elf in Middle Earth was more than just genetics and biology.
Actually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.
Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.
Yeah. My point was, being a half-elf in Tolkien was a Big Hairy Deal. Pretty rare (The immediate children of three couples) and they could choose which race to belong to regarding their longevity and eventual fate. (Elves and Men went to different afterlife destinations)
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half.
the "only to half" part could be explained by introducing a kind of real word biology - they could all be infertile. that would also deal with why there were no human-orc-elf-dwarf-<whathaveyou> hybrids.
but then again, that would not be very Tolkien.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 27, 2023, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: migo on March 27, 2023, 06:12:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.
One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.
If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?
It could be that elves, orcs and humans are of the same stock. Humans aren't quite so strong in their hatred, so you have human-elf and human-orc, while elves and orcs are so strong in their hatred of each other that while theoretically possible, never happens. Orcs don't normally leave elf survivors, and vice versa.
or... humans ARE the elf/orc hybrids.
Now that's an interesting take.
In times long past, there were just elves and orcs, slaughtering each other. Eventually some from both sides decided to make peace. Created a new community, inter-bred, and eventually pure orcs and elves were gone, only leaving humans. Elves being extremely long lived still remember this, and have a latent distrust of humans for this reason. Orcs don't, but they sense some elf in humans, and will attack them just the same. Every now and then the orc senses orc in the human, and doesn't go to kill. And every now and then an elf doesn't care that humans are part orc.
You have three core races: dwarf, elf, and human
Half-elves descend from human-elf pairings
Halflings descend from human-dwarf pairings
Gnomes descend from dwarf-elf pairings
Orcs are magically corrupted elves, so...
Dark gnomes are dwarf-orc descendants
Half-orcs are human-orc descendants
Drow are orc-elf descendants
@jhkim
I read your setting introduction. I like it... but there are things about it where I have serious questions.
Are your choice in races strictly based on gaming-considerations? I mean, you're going off-roading with the Incan milieu but you're using D&D races as a homogenous culture which demands its own setting assumptions (which I'm assuming you have worked out in your head)...
But it seems like a handwavium to me and does the concept of your setting a little bit of a disservice. The Elves and Dwarves as the elder-races implies directly that they have inhabited this setting "long"(?) before humans, and thus with the rise of humanity, the implications of assimilation into a mono-culture under the Sun-God assumes that they either had cultural beliefs that ran in-line with the humans and their Sun-God worship. So much so, that the Elves and Dwarves would subsume their own cultures and merge into the Human's *and* interbreed with them.
The unspoken "thing" is that any conflicts of that assimilation would surely have sub-cultural artifacts. They may be "good/bad" but to me those elements demand that you have actual cultural distinctions between races that existed pre-assimilation. I believe those are very important otherwise why have these other races at all?
Which is why I'm asking - why use D&D races at all? (If it's to adhere to "D&D" formalities - I get it, but I think your setting deserves it's own array of ancestries imo).
So when it comes to "which" races can cross-breed? I think if you understand the cultural underpinnings that lead to the homogenous nature of the Empire as you're proposing it answers those questions pretty easily. But I also think there is a tremendous amount of setting flavor that is missing but implied by the your setup that could give a *lot* of context to your world that would make having these non-human races, including half-breeds cultural relevance.
It might be that the Elves have a different nuanced view of the metaphysics (or none at all) of the Sun God culture. Same with the Dwarves. As to whether they can all interbreed - just make sure *any* kind of interbreeding has a cultural relevance, otherwise what's the point?
The design will demand the need. Otherwise unless you're just trying to do "D&D" where anything can exist "because it's D&D" it feels limp and frankly it undercuts the uniqueness of your setting.
I think any "crossbreeding" should be allowed only if 1) the setting demands it 2) it is relevant and useful AND cool. If you have to force that, then I'd leave it alone.
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 07:57:39 PM
Right. I agree that it's a potential mess. But then what's the internal world logic for shutting this down? For example, if a dwarf PC takes a romantic liking to a gnome NPC, do they think they can start a family? If they ask an oracle why they can't, what would the answer be?
"It just wouldn't be fitting."
Seriously. There
might be physical compatibility, but not genetic.
Klava below said about what I would say in more detail.
Quote from: Klava on March 28, 2023, 04:05:02 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half.
the "only to half" part could be explained by introducing a kind of real word biology - they could all be infertile. that would also deal with why there were no human-orc-elf-dwarf-<whathaveyou> hybrids.
but then again, that would not be very Tolkien.
I seldom use "all of the above" but my current project is "D&D (West part of the continent) meets Runequest (East)" so pretty much anything. I ruled that all "races" are actually species. So absent divine authorized one shots, no races are inter-fertile. With the exception that Hobbits can give birth to half humans and half gnomes: These are called halflings, and are universally sterile.
For example, my elves are Gloranthan (grown from trees) and my orcs are Warhammer (mushrooms) except they are the same race. Some are grown for grace, others for robustness. But half plants would be kinda silly IMO.
Hackmaster has Half-Hobgoblins. Currently, the 5e version is on their web site. I can post the info on the 4e version later.
Quote from: Klava on March 28, 2023, 04:05:02 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half.
the "only to half" part could be explained by introducing a kind of real word biology - they could all be infertile. that would also deal with why there were no human-orc-elf-dwarf-<whathaveyou> hybrids.
but then again, that would not be very Tolkien.
Thanks, Klava - but as you say, it's not very Tolkien. More broadly, it doesn't fit high fantasy in general to have explanations about chromosomal incompatibility or similar.
Even in more scientific fantasy worlds with a real-world biology explanation, it seems odd that half-elf and half-orc are the only two hybrid possibilities among all the races - given that other races seem more phenotypically similar.
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2023, 10:48:56 AM
I read your setting introduction. I like it... but there are things about it where I have serious questions.
Are your choice in races strictly based on gaming-considerations? I mean, you're going off-roading with the Incan milieu but you're using D&D races as a homogenous culture which demands its own setting assumptions (which I'm assuming you have worked out in your head)...
Thanks for the interest, tenbones. Boldface is mine above.
Actually, I am deliberately trying for a
non-homogenous culture, and I'm actually trying to emphasize the variety of culture. The Incan empire spanned a wide range of cultures, speaking many different languages and ethnicities, with many environments. In Tolkien, it's closest to Numenor at its height when elves and men worked in harmony -- but with even more disparate cultures involved, like the Roman Empire spanning from Britain to Egypt. That's why we picked multiple core races (elf/dwarf/human/orc), to make it clear that there are different cultures even within the center of the empire.
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2023, 10:48:56 AM
Which is why I'm asking - why use D&D races at all? (If it's to adhere to "D&D" formalities - I get it, but I think your setting deserves it's own array of ancestries imo).
This is an issue with learning curve. If a game has all-new races, classes, spells, items, and monsters that are authentically Andean -- along with an unfamiliar environment, culture, history, religion, and cosmology -- then it will be a confusing mess to my American players. It will feel more often like difficult homework rather than a fun casual game.
I'm not trying to be a history lesson or a real-world cultural lesson, so having obvious ahistorical aspects is good. I'm trying for a fun game setting that anyone can drop into quickly. Notably, I've got one young teen player in my regular group, and I've run multiple one-shots in the teen room at local conventions.
Because of this, I want full compatibility with core D&D. There's already plenty to learn with the environment, culture, and religion -- I didn't want to also introduce confusion with game system, magic, etc. So all the races and classes in the Player's Handbook should be available. I'm willing to add a few new races or optional races, but they should still be easy-to-understand archetypes.
----
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2023, 10:48:56 AM
So much so, that the Elves and Dwarves would subsume their own cultures and merge into the Human's *and* interbreed with them.
The unspoken "thing" is that any conflicts of that assimilation would surely have sub-cultural artifacts. They may be "good/bad" but to me those elements demand that you have actual cultural distinctions between races that existed pre-assimilation. I believe those are very important otherwise why have these other races at all?
OK, so this is something I'll try to communicate better in the doc.
For this setting, what I want to convey is that mountain dwarves and high elves and orcs did not assimilate into human culture. Instead, there was a joint culture that was formed by the union, while still preserving differences. There is a vital principle called
ayni in Andean culture, which is translated as reciprocity. I don't want the game to be a real-world history or cultural lesson that I'm not qualified for -- but it's a principle that I'd like to reflect in the setting design.
As a high fantasy setting, Inti is a true good deity -- like Ilúvatar for Tolkien or Christ for King Arthur -- and Inti supports the principle of ayni. There is evil to fight from evil gods, cults, and creatures -- but other peoples can be integrated.
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2023, 10:48:56 AM
So when it comes to "which" races can cross-breed? I think if you understand the cultural underpinnings that lead to the homogenous nature of the Empire as you're proposing it answers those questions pretty easily. But I also think there is a tremendous amount of setting flavor that is missing but implied by the your setup that could give a *lot* of context to your world that would make having these non-human races, including half-breeds cultural relevance.
It might be that the Elves have a different nuanced view of the metaphysics (or none at all) of the Sun God culture. Same with the Dwarves. As to whether they can all interbreed - just make sure *any* kind of interbreeding has a cultural relevance, otherwise what's the point?
Thanks, and I agree -- though with another caveat that the Solar Empire is not supposed to be homogenous.
I'd want half-elves and half-orcs to help represent the reciprocal union of the empire. Having orcs as part of the empire was important, because to the Incans, one of their self-seen strengths was accepting and integrating disparate peoples without imposing conformity. In historical reality, the Inca did give a lot of latitude to local government. They also force migration of some conquered peoples to different locations to reduce resistance -- but then, the historical King Arthur also likely wasn't a paragon of Christian virtue, if he was even Christian at all. This is high fantasy, not history.
Mountain dwarves represent the fantastic stonework and goldsmithy of the Incas. High elves represent especially the understanding of nature that brings innovative agriculture with terraced fields of corn, potatoes, and quinoa. Humans bring herding and weaving. And orcs form the core of their military.
Putting this into words has helped clarify my thinking here. I'm more solid in liking half-elves and half-orcs. I'd like a dwarf-elf halfbreed to represent that part of the union, but I need a good name and other qualities to make the archetype clearer. I'm thinking of repurposing the name "grey elf" to explicitly mean a dwarf-elf cross. (I considered some other fey name like brownie, but nothing seems to fit.) They should have an affinity with stone while also having some elven traits.
Cool! I know I was making assumptions, but now that you have made a more granular point about it, I think it means that the exploration of these cultures, pre-assimilation, are at *least* as equally important as to figuring out which races can interbreed.
To address that interbreeding part, *obviously* there must be some "commonality" to allows two species to interbreed. How much of that is directly important? I'm not sure. I think the cultures are more important. In many of our other threads we talk about - I've mentioned I've lived in Asia (Japan and the Philippines) and I'm a half-breed myself, but I *look* obviously Asian. My father is full-blooded Cajun French, I've lived down in Lousiana too. Those cultural differences are *massive* and there most certainly were assimilation issues. I had to get into fist-fights to be accepted by my Cajun cousins, and even then most of those outside of my immediate family have never really accepted me. Same is true with the Filipino cousins, but they had a much smaller bar for entry, but the "half-breed" thing manifests itself in funny weird ways. My Japanese relatives? by far the most unaccepting. Polite, but no.
So my thoughts in terms of gamins - half-breeds should have some in-cultural status. Either good or bad is up to you. Historically it would probably be "bad" or at least "lesser" than the norm. But hey! this is a fantasy game, other cultures might revere them. Think of how humans would react to Elves in real life? A Humanocentric culture might find it a blessing to have a half Elder-race child? It's up to you to contextualize it.
Since you're committed to the standard races, I'd do some writeups for all those races in deep context to your setting. I'd toss out most of the "traditional" assumptions, or at lease recontextualize them to your own cosmology. Having Elder races like Dwarves and Elves probably means they have a deeper (in terms of their basic longevity) understandings of concepts that might run parallel to the mainline Sun God culture of the humans. Maybe they have nuanced secrets that allowed their assimilation and acceptance in the human dominated (presumption) culture. By dominant, I'm only speaking about population. There are a lot of ways you can play it obviously, I'm just tossing out seed-concepts to build towards whatever status half-breeds might have in the larger culture.
Of course sub-cultures might equally have interesting possibilities too. And you can nestle Tieflings and Aasimar accordingly - any highly religious culture that has magic on the level of D&D would have congress with extra-planar entities that could produce Tiefling/Aasimar bloodlines. To me the more important point is you grounding the status of such bloodlines into your setting.
But yeah - overall I think your concept has a lot of potential. Stick that landing, man!
I've homebrewed my races and have an inworld explanation for the types of hybrids that are allowed. In my world, first gnomes and halflings are the same species. But don't try to tell them that. They hate each other. But others just call them "haffles." Orcs and goblins are specific to a certain region - one that is recovering from a magical apocalypse millennia ago. They are literally humans and haffles that have experienced mutations due to the ambient wild magic in their homeland.
Thus humans and orcs can interbreed and produce "half-orcs". Ditto gnomes, halflings, and goblins. Each of those races has its own features, and hybrids can take any mix of those features, but no more than the total available to any one race. So a half-orc can pick some combination of human and orc traits. Some half-orcs favor their human side, some their orcish. You know, like in real life. I let the player explain it any way they like.
Elves no longer exist. They're creatures of myth. Dwarves and a few other playable races exist, but they're all unique species in the scientific sense and unable to produce offspring with members of any other species. There are no half-dwarves or half-giants, etc. You can play my version of a bugbear, but never a half-bugbear.
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2023, 03:40:26 PM
So my thoughts in terms of gamins - half-breeds should have some in-cultural status. Either good or bad is up to you. Historically it would probably be "bad" or at least "lesser" than the norm. But hey! this is a fantasy game, other cultures might revere them. Think of how humans would react to Elves in real life? A Humanocentric culture might find it a blessing to have a half Elder-race child? It's up to you to contextualize it.
Good point - and here I'm going with the fantasy. In the high fantasy mode, half-elves like Elrond were respected. In setting, the first emperor and empress were and elf/human marriage, and the second emperor was their half-elf son. I might split the difference that half-elves and half-orcs have special cultural status for the religion and wider empire, so have no trouble finding positions - especially as arbiters and judges. However, they have some bias against them in unofficial social circles, so they don't get arranged marriages or other support as easily.
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2023, 03:40:26 PM
Since you're committed to the standard races, I'd do some writeups for all those races in deep context to your setting. I'd toss out most of the "traditional" assumptions, or at lease recontextualize them to your own cosmology. Having Elder races like Dwarves and Elves probably means they have a deeper (in terms of their basic longevity) understandings of concepts that might run parallel to the mainline Sun God culture of the humans. Maybe they have nuanced secrets that allowed their assimilation and acceptance in the human dominated (presumption) culture. By dominant, I'm only speaking about population. There are a lot of ways you can play it obviously, I'm just tossing out seed-concepts to build towards whatever status half-breeds might have in the larger culture.
I'm trying to keep with traditional assumptions where possible, to keep things as easy to learn as possible. There are definitely some things I will recontextualize - especially with orcs. I'm writing more, and I'll post when I've finished another pass on the document.
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2023, 03:40:26 PM
Of course sub-cultures might equally have interesting possibilities too. And you can nestle Tieflings and Aasimar accordingly - any highly religious culture that has magic on the level of D&D would have congress with extra-planar entities that could produce Tiefling/Aasimar bloodlines. To me the more important point is you grounding the status of such bloodlines into your setting.
I don't know if you saw it in the doc, but I'm connecting tiefling along with aasimar and genasi with the Nazca lines / geoglyphs of the cold southern deserts. The take is that the deserts have ancient powerful magic flowing through the land, which has resulted in long-standing lines of magic-tainted humans.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 28, 2023, 01:40:56 AM
(https://media.tenor.co/images/1ad6ac821affa2d55cf9092830851ee7/tenor.gif)
;)
(https://media.tenor.com/UR9QBIpd6JkAAAAd/and-so.gif)
Quote from: jhkim on March 28, 2023, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: Klava on March 28, 2023, 04:05:02 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half.
the "only to half" part could be explained by introducing a kind of real word biology - they could all be infertile. that would also deal with why there were no human-orc-elf-dwarf-<whathaveyou> hybrids.
but then again, that would not be very Tolkien.
Thanks, Klava - but as you say, it's not very Tolkien. More broadly, it doesn't fit high fantasy in general to have explanations about chromosomal incompatibility or similar.
Yep. In a mileu with Owlbears and Chimeras and Centaurs, genetics just doesn't fit very well, if at all.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 28, 2023, 01:40:56 AM
(https://media.tenor.co/images/1ad6ac821affa2d55cf9092830851ee7/tenor.gif)
;)
(https://media.tenor.com/UR9QBIpd6JkAAAAd/and-so.gif)
(https://c.tenor.com/MjtzXl4APYUAAAAC/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 28, 2023, 11:24:11 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 28, 2023, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: Klava on March 28, 2023, 04:05:02 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half.
the "only to half" part could be explained by introducing a kind of real word biology - they could all be infertile. that would also deal with why there were no human-orc-elf-dwarf-<whathaveyou> hybrids.
but then again, that would not be very Tolkien.
Thanks, Klava - but as you say, it's not very Tolkien. More broadly, it doesn't fit high fantasy in general to have explanations about chromosomal incompatibility or similar.
Yep. In a mileu with Owlbears and Chimeras and Centaurs, genetics just doesn't fit very well, if at all.
But are the Owlbears the result of Bears breeding with Owls, and the Centaurs the result of Humans breeding with Horses?
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 07:57:39 PMRight. I agree that it's a potential mess. But then what's the internal world logic for shutting this down? For example, if a dwarf PC takes a romantic liking to a gnome NPC, do they think they can start a family? If they ask an oracle why they can't, what would the answer be?
You are asking the wrong question here. A half-Dwarf/half-Gnome PC isn't a Dwarf PC that falls in love with a Gnome, but it is a character whose parents are a Dwarf and a Gnome. So in order to limit a PC racial choice, you don't have to explain my it is impossible for a dwarf and a gnome to have a child but only explain why this doesn't happen often enough to be a basic in-game racial choice.
And for that, there are an endless number of excuses, from physical proximity, standards of beauty, cultural norms, or even preferred diets, all that would make certain mixes highly unlikely.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 29, 2023, 09:26:06 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 07:57:39 PMRight. I agree that it's a potential mess. But then what's the internal world logic for shutting this down? For example, if a dwarf PC takes a romantic liking to a gnome NPC, do they think they can start a family? If they ask an oracle why they can't, what would the answer be?
You are asking the wrong question here. A half-Dwarf/half-Gnome PC isn't a Dwarf PC that falls in love with a Gnome, but it is a character whose parents are a Dwarf and a Gnome. So in order to limit a PC racial choice, you don't have to explain my it is impossible for a dwarf and a gnome to have a child but only explain why this doesn't happen often enough to be a basic in-game racial choice.
And for that, there are an endless number of excuses, from physical proximity, standards of beauty, cultural norms, or even preferred diets, all that would make certain mixes highly unlikely.
The Half-Elf also throws a wrench in things, because you can already play an Elf. Normally a Half-Race is to let you kind of play a Monster that isn't otherwise allowed. You can't play an Orc, but you can play a Half-Orc. You can't play an Ogre, but you can play a Half-Ogre. These are also Evil enemy species. Elves can be played, and they're Good allies. So the Half-Elf is completely unnecessary. I don't think anyone would miss the Half-Elf as an option when Elf stays an option.
So the way to do it is to make Elves xenophobes that rarely come out, so you don't get to play an Elf PC, but you can play a Half-Elf. Halflings and Gnomes are social enough you can play them anyway. And while Dwarves are somewhat xenophobic, they're not as extreme as Elves. Then you've got Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Half-Orc, Half-Elf and maybe Half-something else.
Just occurred to me that what I did in my last 5E campaign might be an option: No half-races in the setting, but used the half-races mechanically as alternate humans.
For example, there were no half-elves in the setting, whatsoever. There were a group of humans that are thought to be affected by fey who used the half-elf mechanics. I called them "fair humans" in the setting because they were one of the few human cultures that tended to be blond, but it really doesn't matter. I left the explanation for how they came about as a mystery to be solved, and included several popular theories in setting assumptions. One was that there were descended from a long ago blending of elf and human. Another was that they were magically altered by a deity. The reality was that they were humans who had wandered into an area that had a lot of fey/material plane crossovers and had absorbed some of the same fey magical radiation that makes elves and other fey "fey".
If you want to include something that doesn't really fit with the label it has on it, change the label to something that does fit. They you don't need to justify how the genetics work, because they are irrelevant.
Quote from: migo on March 29, 2023, 08:36:44 AM
But are the Owlbears the result of Bears breeding with Owls, and the Centaurs the result of Humans breeding with Horses?
They are chimeras created by angry gods.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/31/8d/20318d8b71113c4b7b1de371812ad45d.jpg)
Quote from: migo on March 29, 2023, 08:36:44 AMBut are the Owlbears the result of Bears breeding with Owls
After all the crap that went down with the OGL, I decided to come up with a unique version of the Owlbear as a faerie monster that was created by a powerful and angry Phooka who wanted a forest creature to sic on humans that trespass in fae territory. Let's just say that its not a hybrid PER SE and more like a fusion that can split its body while retaining its consciousness.
So for my own setting, I've settled on an answer and worked out most details with my co-author. There are four core races that unified to form the heart of the Solar Empire: dwarves, elves, humans, and orcs.
By my cosmology, dwarves were created first - being born of the Earth in darkness before the sun and moon were put in the sky. Elves were created second when the Sun, Moon, and stars were put in the sky and plants grew on the Earth - they are plant-aligned and vegetarian. Humans were created third after animals were sent out, and are omnivorous. And orcs were created last to spread and wake up the world, and are carnivorous. That makes a sequence of
dwarves -> elves -> humans -> orcsOnly adjacent types in this line can have children together. So there are half-orc/half-human (called half-orc), half-human/half-elf (called half-elf), and half-elf/half-dwarf (called half-dwarf). In the broader setting, these three mixed types are only possible because the Sun God Inti blessed the union of these four races as the founding core of the empire.
I like this because it fits well with both the character of the established D&D races, and the pseudo-Incan cosmology. Plus it keeps compatibility with standard D&D options with only one addition (half-dwarves).
----
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 29, 2023, 09:26:06 AM
You are asking the wrong question here. A half-Dwarf/half-Gnome PC isn't a Dwarf PC that falls in love with a Gnome, but it is a character whose parents are a Dwarf and a Gnome. So in order to limit a PC racial choice, you don't have to explain my it is impossible for a dwarf and a gnome to have a child but only explain why this doesn't happen often enough to be a basic in-game racial choice.
And for that, there are an endless number of excuses, from physical proximity, standards of beauty, cultural norms, or even preferred diets, all that would make certain mixes highly unlikely.
Cultural compatibility seems more like a stretched excuse to me. In existing D&D settings, human/elf and human/orc are not the two race pairs with the best cultural relations. Most of the demi-humans - like elves and gnomes - get along with each other better than with humans. And orcs don't get along well with most of the rest of the races.
----
Quote from: migo on March 29, 2023, 09:53:53 AM
The Half-Elf also throws a wrench in things, because you can already play an Elf. Normally a Half-Race is to let you kind of play a Monster that isn't otherwise allowed. You can't play an Orc, but you can play a Half-Orc. You can't play an Ogre, but you can play a Half-Ogre. These are also Evil enemy species. Elves can be played, and they're Good allies. So the Half-Elf is completely unnecessary. I don't think anyone would miss the Half-Elf as an option when Elf stays an option.
So the way to do it is to make Elves xenophobes that rarely come out, so you don't get to play an Elf PC, but you can play a Half-Elf. Halflings and Gnomes are social enough you can play them anyway. And while Dwarves are somewhat xenophobic, they're not as extreme as Elves. Then you've got Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Half-Orc, Half-Elf and maybe Half-something else.
Elves as PCs is pretty ingrained now within D&D games. I think it would be weird to have a world where elves existed, but they weren't allowed as PCs. Also, not missing half-elf makes sense from a game-play perspective - but I don't think it makes sense from a perspective of world logic. I would want consistent logic about what half-breeds are possible regardless of who the PCs are.
Can a Duergar and a Dwarf interbreed? I mean they are the same size, and Duergars ARE Dwarfs...
But one is an Evil Culture while the other is a Good culture, so cultural norms/cultural incompatibility could play a role, there MIGHT be some Duergar/Dwarf mutts out there, but they should be extremely rare.
A strictly Matriarchal race and a strictly Patriarchal one, can they interbreed? Hell change race for culture and you'll still have the same issue, they can but will they?
A race/culture that borders germophobia with one that thinks bathing is for weaklings... They might be able to interbreed, but will they?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 02:42:31 PM
Can a Duergar and a Dwarf interbreed? I mean they are the same size, and Duergars ARE Dwarfs...
But one is an Evil Culture while the other is a Good culture, so cultural norms/cultural incompatibility could play a role, there MIGHT be some Duergar/Dwarf mutts out there, but they should be extremely rare.
A strictly Matriarchal race and a strictly Patriarchal one, can they interbreed? Hell change race for culture and you'll still have the same issue, they can but will they?
As I said, if cultural incompatibility is the explanation, then we should see lots of gnome/elf or dwarf/halfling and similar mixes more often than human/orc or even human/elf.
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.
Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.
It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM
Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.
It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.
If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.
But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM
Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.
It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.
If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.
But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".
In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.
Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".
From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?
Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM
Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".
Correction: Wanting to play something that is not approved for the campaign setting is looked down as trying to be a special snowflake. Specifically, the campaign setting as done at that table, not necessarily in sync with the outside sources. The decision on what is approved varies considerably. Sometimes it is limited to the "playable races" for that campaign. Sometimes it is limited to the races with a history in that campaign, normally playable or not. Sometimes it is limited as the previous sentence, but only after an experienced player has encountered that race and interacted with them.
I typically limit it to whatever playable races were agreed when we started the thing. Though some races I'll never agree to allow, and others only in certain cases. Someone else wants to have a campaign with a particular flair outside my GM limits is welcome to run it anytime they want.
What I think pretty much is nigh universal on these forums is that a player doesn't waltz into an established campaign and get whatever the heck they want,
with total disregard for the setting and the preferences of everyone else at the table. Furthermore, I think most of us agree that while, yes, it is possible to twist things around to fit a lot of things that don't seem to on the surface, that trying to do so is wrong-headed, in a "tail wagging the dog" manner.
Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM
Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.
It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.
If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.
But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".
In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.
Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".
From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?
I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.
I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.
Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.
IF after I have informed you (the royal you) of what the world/campaign is about and what is or isn't in it, you still want to play a ninja in my Incan inspired campaign then you clearly aren't a good fit for the game or my table, ever. But it's NOT because Ninjas aren't on the book, it's because Ninjas don't fit the campaign.
With one exception, give me a good reasoned explanation of why I'm wrong and your concept totally can fit. I can be convinced, but not "because the book says so".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM
Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.
It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.
If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.
But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".
In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.
Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".
From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?
I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.
I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.
Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.
IF after I have informed you (the royal you) of what the world/campaign is about and what is or isn't in it, you still want to play a ninja in my Incan inspired campaign then you clearly aren't a good fit for the game or my table, ever. But it's NOT because Ninjas aren't on the book, it's because Ninjas don't fit the campaign.
With one exception, give me a good reasoned explanation of why I'm wrong and your concept totally can fit. I can be convinced, but not "because the book says so".
My explanation would be "I was using 'ninja' as shorthand for 'stealthy assassin and master of disguise from the underclasses of society."
Because absent the exotic cultural mystique given things, most elements boil down to something present in all societies in some fashion, because despite all the surface differences people are mostly people and so the same sorts of institutions and roles develop.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 06, 2023, 02:07:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:27:41 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 05:27:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 04:26:48 PM
Quote from: migo on April 05, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
In AD&D it's implied that Stout Halflings have Dwarfish blood. So you have a Dwarf/Halfling right there. In Forgotten Realms Dwarves Deep, it says Human/Dwarf crosses are still just Dwarves, but a bit taller than usual. That could be extrapolated to Halflings as well, with a Human/Halfling being an unusually tall Halfling.
It seems to me that simply adds to the complications, especially since it seems like stout halflings aren't pure 50/50, but rather having a smaller percentage of dwarvish blood. By adding in one 75/25 combination, it still opens the question about why all other mixes aren't listed.
If the rules don't forbid it it's allowed has been ALWAYS the default.
But you're coming from the position of "if the rules don't expressly allow it it's forbidden".
In my experience of playing D&D since back in the 1970s, picking from the allowed list of races has always been the norm. Wanting to play a special type is the rare exception. I've barely seen it.
Further, in discussion on these forums, a player wanting to play a special race or class that isn't in the books is often looked down on as trying to be a "special snowflake".
From your side, how have you dealt with players who wanted to play a race or class that isn't listed in the book?
I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.
I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.
Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.
IF after I have informed you (the royal you) of what the world/campaign is about and what is or isn't in it, you still want to play a ninja in my Incan inspired campaign then you clearly aren't a good fit for the game or my table, ever. But it's NOT because Ninjas aren't on the book, it's because Ninjas don't fit the campaign.
With one exception, give me a good reasoned explanation of why I'm wrong and your concept totally can fit. I can be convinced, but not "because the book says so".
My explanation would be "I was using 'ninja' as shorthand for 'stealthy assassin and master of disguise from the underclasses of society."
Because absent the exotic cultural mystique given things, most elements boil down to something present in all societies in some fashion, because despite all the surface differences people are mostly people and so the same sorts of institutions and roles develop.
That's a good explanation up to a point, we don't have ANYTHING like ninjas in other cultures except the Japanese, as long as you're willing to forego those elements of the class that do not fit the campaign (for example throwing stars, katanas, exploding balls, etc) I might allow it. You would also need to convince me of HOW your character became a master of disguise, since in the Incan culture there wasn't (AFAWK) a school for stealthy master of disguise assassins.
But you and I know THAT type of gamer, there's a reason I used Ninja as the example.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM
I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.
I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.
Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.
I think we're miscommunicating here. Because I agree about this, and that's exactly what I'm doing. The origin of this thread was about trying to reason out what half or mixed races were possible in my campaign, and I ended up coming up with one new half race (dwarf/elf) and an explanation why others weren't possible.
For my specific current campaign, I'm trying to minimize the learning curve for players over fantasy options -- so one of my principles was to support all the races and classes in the Player's Handbook. I felt learning the environment and culture was enough, so I wanted the fantasy and game options to be simple and familiar. But that's not something I do with every campaign.
For example, in a campaign a few years ago, it was a mirror world where the only allowed PC races were orc, kobold, goblin, and a few others -- humans and demi-humans were inherently evil and unsuitable as PCs.
---
To rephrase what I'm saying about half races:
The core D&D rules allow two half races and possibly one non-half mixed race (stout halflings). This opens up all sorts of questions about all the other possible mixed races. I reject any explanation "well, it's not in the book, so it's not possible". Logically, if races can interbreed, then there should be gnome/elf or a lightfoot dwarf who gets stealth bonuses for halfling blood. But as SHARK said, if all mixes are possible, then quickly there are an overwhelming number of options.
Each game setting and/or campaign has to answer about which other half races or mixed races are possible either as NPCs or PCs.
I was trying to answer that question for my campaign setting, and hearing about how other people reasoned it out for their campaign settings.
Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 01:54:06 PM
I've never encountered such a problem, BECAUSE at the start, when recruiting I make it very clear what is or isn't allowed in MY campaign, which might leave out stuff on the books or include stuff not on the books.
I run my table, not some designer that knows jack shit about the world I crafted, because no designer could foresee all the infinite variations and permutations people will inflict upon his game.
Again, you seem to think if the book doesn't expressly allow it then it's forbidden, that's not the old way, the only things allowed or forbidden are peculiar of a table/DM/campaign. I might allow Satyrs on one campaign and only allow humans on another.
I think we're miscommunicating here. Because I agree about this, and that's exactly what I'm doing. The origin of this thread was about trying to reason out what half or mixed races were possible in my campaign, and I ended up coming up with one new half race (dwarf/elf) and an explanation why others weren't possible.
For my specific current campaign, I'm trying to minimize the learning curve for players over fantasy options -- so one of my principles was to support all the races and classes in the Player's Handbook. I felt learning the environment and culture was enough, so I wanted the fantasy and game options to be simple and familiar. But that's not something I do with every campaign.
For example, in a campaign a few years ago, it was a mirror world where the only allowed PC races were orc, kobold, goblin, and a few others -- humans and demi-humans were inherently evil and unsuitable as PCs.
---
To rephrase what I'm saying about half races:
The core D&D rules allow two half races and possibly one non-half mixed race (stout halflings). This opens up all sorts of questions about all the other possible mixed races. I reject any explanation "well, it's not in the book, so it's not possible". Logically, if races can interbreed, then there should be gnome/elf or a lightfoot dwarf who gets stealth bonuses for halfling blood. But as SHARK said, if all mixes are possible, then quickly there are an overwhelming number of options.
Each game setting and/or campaign has to answer about which other half races or mixed races are possible either as NPCs or PCs.
I was trying to answer that question for my campaign setting, and hearing about how other people reasoned it out for their campaign settings.
Never mind the number of options, is the new halfbreed mechanically different enough to be interesting? Maybe it isn't but it brings some new and interesting conflict/concept to the game.
Plus, it was understood by the designers and consultants (hello there Pundit!) that the DMs would change things around, removing or adding stuff to THEIR game. No designer EVER can predict all of the changes different people will inflict upon his baby.
It's why Kevin Crawfords's products are so well received, he gives you a full game and tons of tools to make it your own.
I don't care much about what is or isn't "allowed" by the book, unless it's a totally new (to me) system, then I will play/run it as close to RAW as possible, after getting familiarized with it then I might make changes if I want to run it again.
You're running a Pseudo-Incan campaign, and you allowed elves, dwarves, etc. I wouldn't have allowed that, I would have come up with new races and classes, as I'm doing with my Mayan inspired game, it's Pseudo-Mayan too, because I'm not gonna try and make it "authentic" because we know jack shit about Mayan culture and because it's not MY cup of tea, I want high fantasy but with a twist.
You created a new halfbreed, I have none, because the gods created each race from different stuff, they can't interbreed.
Humans
Clay People
Monkey People
Tree People (this one is proving the more challenging to do right)
*Jaguar People (might not end up in the game, still not sure, or it might replace the tree people, who knows?)
Warrior, Wizard, Cleric, Thief?* (Not sure about thief tho)
Might switch to OSE Advanced for the chassis.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 03:34:06 PM
You're running a Pseudo-Incan campaign, and you allowed elves, dwarves, etc. I wouldn't have allowed that, I would have come up with new races and classes, as I'm doing with my Mayan inspired game, it's Pseudo-Mayan too, because I'm not gonna try and make it "authentic" because we know jack shit about Mayan culture and because it's not MY cup of tea, I want high fantasy but with a twist.
You created a new halfbreed, I have none, because the gods created each race from different stuff, they can't interbreed.
Humans
Clay People
Monkey People
Tree People (this one is proving the more challenging to do right)
*Jaguar People (might not end up in the game, still not sure, or it might replace the tree people, who knows?)
Warrior, Wizard, Cleric, Thief?* (Not sure about thief tho)
Might switch to OSE Advanced for the chassis.
Cool. Different settings should be done differently. I look forward to seeing material for your game.
Just to be clear, if I was designing a pseudo-Incan game in general, I might go in many different directions. I might say human only, or I might have all-new races. But in this case my co-author and I made this choice, and we're leaning into it.
Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 04:14:05 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 03:34:06 PM
You're running a Pseudo-Incan campaign, and you allowed elves, dwarves, etc. I wouldn't have allowed that, I would have come up with new races and classes, as I'm doing with my Mayan inspired game, it's Pseudo-Mayan too, because I'm not gonna try and make it "authentic" because we know jack shit about Mayan culture and because it's not MY cup of tea, I want high fantasy but with a twist.
You created a new halfbreed, I have none, because the gods created each race from different stuff, they can't interbreed.
Humans
Clay People
Monkey People
Tree People (this one is proving the more challenging to do right)
*Jaguar People (might not end up in the game, still not sure, or it might replace the tree people, who knows?)
Warrior, Wizard, Cleric, Thief?* (Not sure about thief tho)
Might switch to OSE Advanced for the chassis.
Cool. Different settings should be done differently. I look forward to seeing material for your game.
Just to be clear, if I was designing a pseudo-Incan game in general, I might go in many different directions. I might say human only, or I might have all-new races. But in this case my co-author and I made this choice, and we're leaning into it.
Yep, the more different the better, else why bother?
It's like when you include gonzo, you either lean into it or don't bother including it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 03:34:06 PMClay People
(https://media.tenor.com/9GP6mNA4ZnUAAAAi/soy-wojaks-pointing-gif-soy-wojaks.gif)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 03:34:06 PMMonkey People
(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNTI5NTY1NWJmYTJmMmMyNDMwN2RmYzc3MTM3NGQxYWVjNDFkNmIyNyZjdD1n/82DaAxknIvBovGGPj5/giphy.gif)
QuoteActually, that's a misnomer. Only those who were descended from Beren & Luthien (being Half-Maia) and/or Tuor (a human favored by the Valar) and Idril AND survived the end of the 1st Age were given that choice. That boils down to Elwing, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros and later Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen since Elros decided to be accounted as a Man (and his descendants were forever counted among them). Elwing's older brothers Elured & Elurin are unaccounted for in the legendarium (they are believed to have perished) and Dior, son of Beren & Luthien, was killed when Doriath fell.
Notably the children of Imrazôr the Numenorean and the Silvan Elf Mithrellas (traveling companion of Nimrodel), Galador (First Prince of Dol Amroth) and his sister Gilmith were never accounted as anything other than Men. However, even over a thousand years later, Legolas Greenleaf was able to tell that Prince Imrahil had Elvish blood in him.
For precision I'd add - the Choice was given only to Earendil and Elwing and their descendants when they stood before Judgement of Valars.
Default situation for all half-elves is human nature - and there's good argument Dior Eluhil was also ultimately a Man - he was grown man, married with children, and perished at war at 27 - impossible achievement for Eldar.
John Carter of Mars. Carthoris is half human half red martian.
Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 03:07:08 PM
As I'm detailing more of my setting background, I get a little stuck on half-elves and half-orcs. It would be weird given a variety of races, only these two should be able to breed, and then only to half. Obviously, these started from a simplification of Tolkien in original D&D - but it has stuck through many other D&D settings, where it becomes more of an oddity.
One of my design goals is for my setting to support all the core D&D options (i.e. the races and classes in the Player's Handbook), but I don't want to mindlessly imitate Tolkien just because. I am OK with adding options, so I am considering adding in more half-race options like half-dwarf, but then where would I draw a limit? So I am considering cosmological/biological reasons why only certain creature types can interbreed.
If developing non-Tolkien D&D-based settings, do people use other mixed-races? Do you go with just these two, or do you have other half-races?
I use the half-elf, half-orc and half-ogre because the stats for them are well known and have been part of the game for forty years. Other hybrids are as follows:
If the combination is in any way close to the three mentioned above, I use those stats. For example a human-goblin is treated like a half-orc, maybe shorter. A human-troll mix is a greenish half-ogre. A human who knocks up a nymph or dryad produces a half-elf.
Otherwise, the result is a human.