Quote from: Brad on March 27, 2023, 05:54:44 PM
I got a copy of that out of curiosity...how it got published is beyond me. I guess name recognition goes a long way.

I got it new when it first came out (Yep I have been gaming that long).   I to this day don't think Cyborg Commando is actually playable.  I could be wrong.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 27, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
This all reminds me of the "Stan Lee was a hack that stole everything from Jack Kirby" horseshit that's become popular with midwits for the last decade or two.

Kirby was a talented guy, but he was a blue collar guy, always taking the short money. Yeah Lee over-worked Kirby and paid him peanuts, but historically that's how publishing houses treated writers and artists. Famous writers like Lovecraft and Howard cranked out stories just to make rent. Kirby was also famous for taking cash in hand over royalties.

What did Lee do? He built a brand. The guy was a relentless promoter, and turned Marvel in to a respected company, with T.V. deals and character recognition.

Stripping Gygax from the legacy of D&D because he allegedly did the same to Arneson makes zero sense, and is only suggested by cultural wreckers that want to tear down every pillar of Western civilization, no matter how minor. If Gygax was an Inuit Lesbian who'd swiped 99% of D&D from Arneson, these same types would fight tooth and claw to prop up said legacy.

TLDR: people can be shitty, and still do amazing things, worthy of recognition.

Arneson and Gygax both created D&D with a greater portion of the white box being due to Arneson and then as the product line progressed it was more Gygax than Arneson.  But, without Arneson, there never would have been a D&D in the first place.  And likely without Gygax the white box wouldn't have been made in the first place.  Gygax had no idea of the RPG till he played with Arneson and was introduced to the concept.  Arneson wasn't able to type well, the one manuscript he attempted was unusable.  For some reason, people think Gygax created D&D all by himself, it gets old.  If it wasn't for Arneson, its likely Gygax would have continued in historical combat miniature games.

It gets old when people try to single out Gygax as the creator, he wasn't, he was the co-creator with Arneson.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 11:27:33 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 27, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
This all reminds me of the "Stan Lee was a hack that stole everything from Jack Kirby" horseshit that's become popular with midwits for the last decade or two.

Kirby was a talented guy, but he was a blue collar guy, always taking the short money. Yeah Lee over-worked Kirby and paid him peanuts, but historically that's how publishing houses treated writers and artists. Famous writers like Lovecraft and Howard cranked out stories just to make rent. Kirby was also famous for taking cash in hand over royalties.

What did Lee do? He built a brand. The guy was a relentless promoter, and turned Marvel in to a respected company, with T.V. deals and character recognition.

Stripping Gygax from the legacy of D&D because he allegedly did the same to Arneson makes zero sense, and is only suggested by cultural wreckers that want to tear down every pillar of Western civilization, no matter how minor. If Gygax was an Inuit Lesbian who'd swiped 99% of D&D from Arneson, these same types would fight tooth and claw to prop up said legacy.

TLDR: people can be shitty, and still do amazing things, worthy of recognition.

Arneson and Gygax both created D&D with a greater portion of the white box being due to Arneson and then as the product line progressed it was more Gygax than Arneson.  But, without Arneson, there never would have been a D&D in the first place.  And likely without Gygax the white box wouldn't have been made in the first place.  Gygax had no idea of the RPG till he played with Arneson and was introduced to the concept.  Arneson wasn't able to type well, the one manuscript he attempted was unusable.  For some reason, people think Gygax created D&D all by himself, it gets old.  If it wasn't for Arneson, its likely Gygax would have continued in historical combat miniature games.

It gets old when people try to single out Gygax as the creator, he wasn't, he was the co-creator with Arneson.

When a pair create something, it's usual for one to be remembered, and the other forgotten. Usually the one who does the interviews and schmoozing is remembered, but sometimes it's as simple as having a memorable name. Gygax is a name that sticks in the memory.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 27, 2023, 11:33:55 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 11:27:33 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 27, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
This all reminds me of the "Stan Lee was a hack that stole everything from Jack Kirby" horseshit that's become popular with midwits for the last decade or two.

Kirby was a talented guy, but he was a blue collar guy, always taking the short money. Yeah Lee over-worked Kirby and paid him peanuts, but historically that's how publishing houses treated writers and artists. Famous writers like Lovecraft and Howard cranked out stories just to make rent. Kirby was also famous for taking cash in hand over royalties.

What did Lee do? He built a brand. The guy was a relentless promoter, and turned Marvel in to a respected company, with T.V. deals and character recognition.

Stripping Gygax from the legacy of D&D because he allegedly did the same to Arneson makes zero sense, and is only suggested by cultural wreckers that want to tear down every pillar of Western civilization, no matter how minor. If Gygax was an Inuit Lesbian who'd swiped 99% of D&D from Arneson, these same types would fight tooth and claw to prop up said legacy.

TLDR: people can be shitty, and still do amazing things, worthy of recognition.

Arneson and Gygax both created D&D with a greater portion of the white box being due to Arneson and then as the product line progressed it was more Gygax than Arneson.  But, without Arneson, there never would have been a D&D in the first place.  And likely without Gygax the white box wouldn't have been made in the first place.  Gygax had no idea of the RPG till he played with Arneson and was introduced to the concept.  Arneson wasn't able to type well, the one manuscript he attempted was unusable.  For some reason, people think Gygax created D&D all by himself, it gets old.  If it wasn't for Arneson, its likely Gygax would have continued in historical combat miniature games.

It gets old when people try to single out Gygax as the creator, he wasn't, he was the co-creator with Arneson.

When a pair create something, it's usual for one to be remembered, and the other forgotten. Usually the one who does the interviews and schmoozing is remembered, but sometimes it's as simple as having a memorable name. Gygax is a name that sticks in the memory.

Well gygax would have been a great product manager but he made a horrible CEO.  Its a possibility if he was more CEO, that D&D would still be in the Midwest and still putting a game that appeals to everyone and not aimed towards Seattle for everything.  I'm just waiting for a D&D Module to put in a starbucks and cellphones next.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 28, 2023, 02:26:04 AM
I'm just waiting for a D&D Module to put in a starbucks and cellphones next.

They did actually publish an adventure where you play baristas in a fantasy Starbucks.

Quote from: S'mon on March 28, 2023, 02:37:12 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 28, 2023, 02:26:04 AM
I'm just waiting for a D&D Module to put in a starbucks and cellphones next.

They did actually publish an adventure where you play baristas in a fantasy Starbucks.

Yeah, and that J. Scott Garibay guy gushed over it...enough said.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 27, 2023, 04:52:10 PM

Quote from: finarvyn on March 27, 2023, 04:26:45 PM
He could look at an idea and think, "yeah, it's a start but I can make it better." That's not an easy thing to do, particularly when you are creating something that no one else has created before.

Not Cyborg Commando.  There was no Wizard spell that could fix that 

Well, that's sort of a "drop the mic" moment. You win. 

Is there another court decision to the 25 July 1979 motion dismissal being linked in this discussion? Because that judgment finds that Gygax had sufficient contact with Minnesota for Arneson to sue him there. Consequently, Gygax's motion for forum non conveniens would be dismissed. This is pretty normal court fare in early stage litigation. I understood there was a more substantial judgment that led TSR to settle for 2.5% with DA, or is this it? If there is more could someone direct me to a link?

Quote from: El-V on March 28, 2023, 01:29:34 PM
Is there another court decision to the 25 July 1979 motion dismissal being linked in this discussion? Because that judgment finds that Gygax had sufficient contact with Minnesota for Arneson to sue him there. Consequently, Gygax's motion for forum non conveniens would be dismissed. This is pretty normal court fare in early stage litigation. I understood there was a more substantial judgment that led TSR to settle for 2.5% with DA, or is this it? If there is more could someone direct me to a link?

The suit against Gygax was settled out of court after Gygax's motion for summary judgement failed. That's fairly standard legal faire and the settlement doesn't necessarily indicate fault. Gygax could have just decided that the cost of litigating wasn't worth it compared to coming to a settlement with Arneson. It should also be noted that Arneson was not contesting that Gygax created D&D, just whether Gygax was the sole creator.
Arneson filed multiple claims though, both against Gygax and TSR. The TSR suit revolved around whether Arneson was owed royalties for AD&D, based on the settlement with Gygax, and resolved in 1985 mostly in Arneson's favor. Unfortunately, I can't find a link to the case that doesn't require a Lexis/Westlaw subscription, but you can look up "Arneson v. TSR Hobbies, Inc Civil No. 4-84-1180" and see if you have better luck than me.

I don't care about this lawsuit stuff. I also don't care for ignorant people who will read fewer books in their entire life than Gygax read before he created D&D, you know, the kind of people who lack curiosity, imagination, and haven't learned anything new since high school. I think all of the smearing of Gygax has to do with a stallinist attempt to erase the past of D&D in order to control and shape the future of D&D in their own demented vision.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 24, 2023, 11:03:21 PM
uh... Bioessentialisim makes perfect sense in an imaginary elf game.

Big Jim the minotaur is going to be fucking strong but dumb as a stump. Orcs are evil and will attack and eat humans. yum yum.

and black, you cannot forget Orcs are 100% always and forever represented as a standin for black people and not mindless killing machines out of ancient folklore.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 29, 2023, 10:14:32 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 24, 2023, 11:03:21 PM
uh... Bioessentialisim makes perfect sense in an imaginary elf game.

Big Jim the minotaur is going to be fucking strong but dumb as a stump. Orcs are evil and will attack and eat humans. yum yum.

and black, you cannot forget Orcs are 100% always and forever represented as a standin for black people and not mindless killing machines out of ancient folklore.

My Orcs are basically Western Roman Imperial Remnant Loyalists seeking to impose tyrannical order on a setting that is basically AD 600 Western Europe (i.e. a bunch of independent breakaway realms seeking to rule themselves)... i.e. the classic Lawful Evil orcs before they got Warcrafted into bands of noble savages.

My orcs are rapacious destroyers of civilized society looking to absorb and destroy everything.  Essentially, the standard plot device to give the party an excuse to beat up the bad guys and save the town.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 11:27:33 PM
Arneson and Gygax both created D&D with a greater portion of the white box being due to Arneson and then as the product line progressed it was more Gygax than Arneson.

That is not accurate. The rules of the 3 LBBs were largely the work of Gary Gygax. The majority of accounts by his players paint Dave as a "seat of his pants" referee who was very creative and had lots of fun. But his rules were basically notes, charts, aides, and mnemonics to use as a reference and to help Dave remain consistent.  More important accounts and interviews from back in the day make clear that the rules that were used to run Blackmoor were not the D&D rules that were released in 1974. Although Dave did switch to using those rules after publications.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 11:27:33 PM
But, without Arneson, there never would have been a D&D in the first place.

Also true. While Dave didn't invent D&D, he did invent tabletop roleplaying. Not from scratch but he was the guy who put together the pieces and put in the sweat to make a campaign that we would recognize as tabletop roleplaying today. 

Dave main role was to teach Gary how to run a tabletop roleplaying campaign as well as reviewing Gygax's work. D&D was a collaboration of Gary and Dave but not in the sense that Gygax adapted Dave's rules but more like Dave was Gygax's experienced mentor and helping him flesh out the D&D rules based on his experience.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 11:27:33 PMAnd likely without Gygax the white box wouldn't have been made in the first place. 

Or a written set of RPG rules in the first place. Without Gygax, likely tabletop roleplaying campaign would be just one more way of running a sophisticated miniature wargame campaign.

More important without Gygax the dungeon adventure wouldn't have had the prominence it did. It was just luck that when asked to demonstrate Blackmoor for the Lake Geneva group, the most portable part of it was the Blackmoor Dungeon. It would have likely been a different outcome if the Lake Geneva group instead headed up to Minneapolis to play the demo.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 11:27:33 PM
Arneson wasn't able to type well, the one manuscript he attempted was unusable.  For some reason, people think Gygax created D&D all by himself, it gets old.  If it wasn't for Arneson, its likely Gygax would have continued in historical combat miniature games..

Again the thing is that the rules Dave used at the time was not even a prototype of the D&D rules that Gygax wrote as first "Fantasy Game" draft.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 11:27:33 PM
It gets old when people try to single out Gygax as the creator, he wasn't, he was the co-creator with Arneson.

My opinion is that Gygax invented D&D, Arneson invented tabletop roleplaying. And there is no alternate history path to our present-day hobby that doesn't run through the two of them. 

And I find it remarkable that we had two moments of creative genius in succession that resulted in our hobby.  And the two complemented so well despite the later fallout between the two.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 27, 2023, 06:25:54 PM
Well son you don't have reading comprehension, I'm done with you.

I have no idea what axe you have to grind with Gary Gygax, but you're demonstrably incorrect about ever assertion you've made in this thread. Not to mention you literally cannot read.