Quote from: BalbinusThe golfer being stung by a bee is realistic as a possibility, but out of genre for many genres.  Some folk want their genre emulation, and who am I to deny it to them?

His example of the golfer and the bee is also absurd in that it opens the door for the ridiculous example of players having to make a Dexterity roll with every step they take.  The game and the players need to define the degree of attention to detail at which they're playing.  Feasibly (and I hear stories from players of all ilks) a game may not need any external randomising device, whether for the better part of an hour, an evening's play, or an entire campaign.

!i!

Quote from: James McMurrayBut that's not truly random. It may appear so to everyone else at the table. To use one of his examples, it's random if nobody can predict the blown tire. In a diceless game the GM can always predict the blown tire, because it doesn't happen unless he decides it will.

Whoa, whoa. Back the bus up right there. You are making an assumption that simply isn't always true of every set of RPG rules. Perhaps this provides some insight into the why--the--fuck of a certain diceless game's rule about the word "No"?

I don't think I understand your last post. Are you saying that the GM deciding when a tire blows is random?

And I'm really lost on that last sentence. I'm sure it must pertain to my post somehow but can't figure it out.

Quote from: James McMurrayI don't think I understand your last post. Are you saying that the GM deciding when a tire blows is random?

And I'm really lost on that last sentence. I'm sure it must pertain to my post somehow but can't figure it out.

I'm saying that [EDIT:IF] anyone can initiate the tire blowing, and whether or not it blows is determined by other people's choice of reactions. Therefore no single person at the table is in sole control of this outcome, meaning you must 100% predict the actions of all people to predict all outcomes.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHis example of the golfer and the bee is also absurd in that it opens the door for the ridiculous example of players having to make a Dexterity roll with every step they take.  The game and the players need to define the degree of attention to detail at which they're playing.  Feasibly (and I hear stories from players of all ilks) a game may not need any external randomising device, whether for the better part of an hour, an evening's play, or an entire campaign.

!i!

I interpreted that, perhaps overkindly, as an ad hoc explanation one might come up with in game to explain why a PC ninja golfer just flubbed his roll.

"Dude, I have golfing ninja at 98%!  What do you mean I missed?"

"Eh, um, maybe you got stung by a bee just as you swung?"

Quote from: blakkieI'm saying that anyone can initiate the tire blowing, and whether or not it blows is determined by other people's choice of reactions. Therefore no single person at the table is in sole control of this outcome, meaning you must 100% predict the actions of all people to predict all outcomes.

I'm not familiar with all diceless games, but I didn't think that shared narrative control (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) was a mainstay in them. Really I'm only familiar with Amber and nobilis, but even then only because they get talked about a lot. I haven't actually read all of the rules on either of them. Do they (or do diceless games in general) not have a GM seat, or perhaps not give the GM total control?

Quote from: BalbinusI interpreted that, perhaps overkindly, as an ad hoc explanation one might come up with in game to explain why a PC ninja golfer just flubbed his roll.

And perhaps you're right.  However, it does raise the whole issue of too much or too little.  Completely non-random (read: "diceless) may be too much for some, but likewise, there are GMs who dice their games to death, failing to focus on the really important aspects of the adventure.  Granted, the former is an expression of codified mechanics, while the latter is one of personal play style, but the issue is out there.

!i!

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm not familiar with all diceless games, but I didn't think that shared narrative control (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) was a mainstay in them. Really I'm only familiar with Amber and nobilis, but even then only because they get talked about a lot. I haven't actually read all of the rules on either of them. Do they (or do diceless games in general) not have a GM seat, or perhaps not give the GM total control?

I'm refering to the 'round these parts infamous "never say No".  So yes there is a GM, but I got out of that sentence of yours an assumption about nothing happening without getting past the GM. Which isn't really that much of a factor in reduction of the unknown occuring....assuming the GM is acting in good faith and within the spirit and letter of the rules.

P.S. Got my hands on the 2e Nobilis book and have been checking into it. The good news is I'll be able to save my trip to the gym for working out with weights! :barbell:

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd perhaps you're right.  However, it does raise the whole issue of too much or too little.  Completely non-random (read: "diceless) may be too much for some, but likewise, there are GMs who dice their games to death, failing to focus on the really important aspects of the adventure.  Granted, the former is an expression of codified mechanics, while the latter is one of personal play style, but the issue is out there.

!i!

At the risk of sounding indie, one really shouldn't roll unless the results of the roll matter and will be interesting to those playing.

More games could make that plain I guess, but to an extent I think one should be able to assume a degree of sentience on the part of consumers.  Some game advice I find to be comparable to the legends one finds on packets of nuts saying "warning, may contain nuts".

Quote from: blakkieI'm refering to the 'round these parts infamous "never say No".  So yes there is a GM, but I got out of that sentence of yours an assumption about nothing happening without getting past the GM. Which isn't really that much of a factor in reduction of the unknown occuring....assuming the GM is acting in good faith and within the spirit and letter of the rules.

P.S. Got my hands on the 2e Nobilis book and have been checking into it. The good news is I'll be able to save my trip to the gym for working out with weights! :barbell:

As has been discussed to death in previous threads, that "never say no" does not relinquish narrative control.

In any case though, I wouldn't call that random either. Sometimes things happen without anyone knowing they will, anything else is just passing the GM hat around the table and changing the source for the non-randomness.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm not familiar with all diceless games, but I didn't think that shared narrative control (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) was a mainstay in them. Really I'm only familiar with Amber and nobilis, but even then only because they get talked about a lot. I haven't actually read all of the rules on either of them. Do they (or do diceless games in general) not have a GM seat, or perhaps not give the GM total control?

I can't speak for Amber, never having read it let alone played it, but I can certainly chime in on Nobilis.  The GM in that game does take on the traditional role in many respects and is certainly the final arbiter of actions (deciding what does and doesn't fall under the defined scope of the players domains, etc.).  However the GM's role is also somewhat diluted c.f. D&D et al.  This is simply due to the high powered nature of the game and the fact that the players define a large part of the theme and focus of the game during character/chancel/imperator creation.

Mind you Polaris is diceless (and has a crazy resolution mechanic involving key phrases that do/allow certain things in a back and forth confrontation between PC and antagonist/NPC) and that has no fixed GM.  Each player takes on the role of anothers antagonists while the other players play non-antagonist NPC's (one takes the female and the other the male) and it switches round depending on whose character is the focus of the current scene.  So distributed GMing is very much the order of the day there.

Mortail Coil has no dice either, it uses resource management of pools of chips but does it in a different manner to Nobilis.  That game has a GM in, I think, a relatively traditional sense but I can't comment accurately as the one game I played was a late night con game involving lack of sleep and alcohol.  Fun but I'm not sure how representative it was of a typical session .

Thanks for the info! Is there a link to s hort version of the Polaris "key phrase" thing? That just sounds freaky and has made me incredibly curious.

Quote from: James McMurrayAs has been discussed to death in previous threads, that "never say no" does not relinquish narrative control.

And in this particular case, what it means is that if a PC happens to have the opportunity to make the tire blow and decides to go for it, the GM won't arbitrarily block the action.

Quote from: James McMurrayAs has been discussed to death in previous threads, that "never say no" does not relinquish narrative control.

In any case though, I wouldn't call that random either. Sometimes things happen without anyone knowing they will, anything else is just passing the GM hat around the table and changing the source for the non-randomness.

There occur previously unknowns in the interactions, and this isn't just about RPGs. It is not 100% predictable what the outcome is. Do you know what the outcome of a baseball game will be? Or to get to a more limited set abstract problem domain a chessboard? Nope. Ergo "random", which is really just another way of saying "I don't know for sure what'll happen". Although in the later example of chess very specialized topend computing is beginning to close in on that very limited problem domain. Ironically a die rolling by itself is in the rough neighbourhood of as predictable if you know certain physical state facts about it (...and please excuse me giving a pass to a trip down the Quatum Physics path).

Now do these unpredicted diversions occur as frequently as dice rolling? Generally speaking, nah. Does it require players to dig down deep and push to make shit happen for them to occur often? Sure. But it still doesn't negate that they exist.

Quote from: James McMurrayThanks for the info! Is there a link to s hort version of the Polaris "key phrase" thing? That just sounds freaky and has made me incredibly curious.

I believe that THIS is the pdf you are looking for