Quote from: GabrielI personally don't consider Amber a RPG.  It's something related, but it isn't a RPG.

I'd put it closer to the mark than Nobilis, though.

Actually, I'm always amazed that Pundit is such an Amber fan - I always saw Amber as being a strong influence towards the White Wolf games (especially Vampire).  Not in mechanics, mind you, but in theme/style (particularly the intrigue stuff).

Quote from: jgantsI'd put it closer to the mark than Nobilis, though.

Based on what? Personal bias aside, how is one closer than the other?  I'm familiar with both, and I'd be loathe to say that either one appears to satisfy Gygax's blowhard requirements any better or worse than the other.

!i!

Quote from: blakkieThere occur previously unknowns in the interactions, and this isn't just about RPGs. It is not 100% predictable what the outcome is. Do you know what the outcome of a baseball game will be? Or to get to a more limited set abstract problem domain a chessboard? Nope. Ergo "random", which is really just another way of saying "I don't know for sure what'll happen". Although in the later example of chess very specialized topend computing is beginning to close in on that very limited problem domain. Ironically a die rolling by itself is in the rough neighbourhood of as predictable if you know certain physical state facts about it (...and please excuse me giving a pass to a trip down the Quatum Physics path).

Now do these unpredicted diversions occur as frequently as dice rolling? Generally speaking, nah. Does it require players to dig down deep and push to make shit happen for them to occur often? Sure. But it still doesn't negate that they exist.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. My definition of random, in this particular case, includes no directed intervention, i.e. nobody deciding what's going to happen. It's all left to chance, which is different from whimsy (at least in this instance).

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBased on what? Personal bias aside, how is one closer than the other?  I'm familiar with both, and I'd be loathe to say that either one appears to satisfy Gygax's blowhard requirements any better or worse than the other.

!i!

Well, it's pretty much pure personal bias.  The people in Amber are at least people, of a sort.  Nobilis seems much more weird and arty to me.

Quote from: jgantsThe people in Amber are at least people, of a sort.  Nobilis seems much more weird and arty to me.

That's oddish, considering that for the most part the Nobilis are perfectly human, at least on Earth. What distinguishes Nobles from common mortals is that at some point one godlike being or another has taken these people into its service, granting them fragments from its soul along with a certain measure of divinity. Apart from that, they can be just like anyone else.

I guess it just isn't possible. :|

Quote from: James McMurrayWe'll just have to agree to disagree then. My definition of random, in this particular case, includes no directed intervention, i.e. nobody deciding what's going to happen. It's all left to chance, which is different from whimsy (at least in this instance).

True chance is a funny thing. It's very existance is only theorised.  Dice aren't really directly true chance. They are simply unknowns. And which side comes up is very much dictated by human actions......that's why craps tables are so long and you have to throw down to the other end or the casino doesn't consider it a legal roll. :cool:

Quote from: jgantsWell, it's pretty much pure personal bias.  The people in Amber are at least people, of a sort.  Nobilis seems much more weird and arty to me.

I can certainly see how you could have a personal bias for one over the other and fair play to you in that regard.  However, saying that Nobilis seems less of an RPG (if I'm getting the gist of your point correctly) than Amber because of that seems a tad odd.  I say this mostly because, well, the Nobilis were human before being imbued and often act with very human motivations towards things.  Besides, what's un-rpg-like about playing super powerful characters?

Quote from: blakkieTrue chance is a funny thing. It's very existance is only theorised.  Dice aren't really directly true chance. They are simply unknowns. And which side comes up is very much dictated by human actions......that's why craps tables are so long and you have to throw down to the other end or the casino doesn't consider it a legal roll. :cool:

True, but not very useful to gaming unless you game with someone that practices dice rolling. Or in other words, they're random enough for me.

Quote from: jgantsThe people in Amber are at least people, of a sort. Nobilis seems much more weird and arty to me.

Quote from: GrimGentThat's oddish, considering that for the most part the Nobilis are perfectly human, at least on Earth. What distinguishes Nobles from common mortals is that at some point one godlike being or another has taken these people into its service, granting them fragments from its soul along with a certain measure of divinity. Apart from that, they can be just like anyone else.

Now, see?  There you go and start getting into the fiddly bits of background for Nobilis, which I think sends people wandering off with their hands in the air.  Fact is, jgants is right -- Nobilis is weird and arty, and this is coming from someone who loves the game.  It's weird and arty, and that's how the author and publishers intended it, and that can be a little hard to wrap one's head around sometimes.  If you could wrap your head around Neil Gaiman's Sandman, then you can get playing a character in Nobilis.  If you couldn't, then there's certainly no shame in that.

Now, all that out of the way, sweeping the settings of Amber and Nobilis off the table, I'll go back on one of my previous statements and say that I personally found the rules of Nobilis better structured and more conducive to play than Amber, which left me flat.  Organisation in print is another matter wholly (and, I think, a valid complaint for many who prefer or demand a straight-forward presentation of the rules).

!i!

So if I was playing D&D in an improvised manner, I would not be playing a real RPG? Damn, I was into the whole indie mindset years ago....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSo if I was playing D&D in an improvised manner, I would not be playing a real RPG? Damn, I was into the whole indie mindset years ago....

Or, like the time my friends and I were out on a long walk without any dice and decided to tie up some minor, unfinished business from our long-running Traveller campaign and accidentally had one of the most exciting sessions ever?  Poo.  I thought we were playing an RPG.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThere you go and start getting into the fiddly bits of background for Nobilis, which I think sends people wandering off with their hands in the air.

The problem here as well as in other threads seems to be the apparent misconception that in Nobilis the players may not even have characters as such ("you are not a person, you are Lost Virginity") and that instead they play some sort of abstract ideals with no connection to ordinary life, which is of course blatantly untrue. The setting is unusual in many ways, sure, but the game isn't that different from any "traditional" RPGs.

Quote from: James McMurrayTrue, but not very useful to gaming unless you game with someone that practices dice rolling. Or in other words, they're random enough for me.

There it is "random enough for me".  The randomness of people's interactions, and it is there, is enough random for some people. For some people prerolled dice is not random enough. *shrug*

Quote from: The Evil DMBLASPHEMY!!

Is that your "mod voice" speaking?