New here, looong-time lurker.

I love GURPS. Unapologetically.
I never get to play it though so others have more informed opinions than I do. I am currently occasionally running a Fantasy Trip adaptation of Keep on the Borderlands for a small group of (mostly) newer players. My hope is someday to transition to GURPS.

I still somehow suspect or hope that a 4e revision is under way or a new marketing approach for the system, to refresh the client base w younger customers so it can continue.

Cosmetically, I love the look and feel and layout of 3rd Edition Basic. It feels warm and cozy and makes you want to delve in and discover its secrets. 4th edition lacks this appeal, reflecting the labcoat scientist that permeates Sean's being - but it's obviously more comprehensive. He and the team did a super job with the huge task they had to accomplish. The hardcover books in the series I must say, look amazing on the shelf and are still all fun to read.

Without the solo and Caravan adventure built in, 4e becomes anathema to a new convert. Like...how does this all fit?? GURPS is magic in its simplicity of mechanics. Once people see it, they seldom find anything else satisfactory.

One thing I also liked about 3e was the Random Character generator (but I'm a super fan of playing random everything, thank you EasyGurps). Make a human character for any genre and GO. Sometimes, this is the best way for a GM to get a GURPS group going. Roll 'em up and do a one-shot. Once they LIKE playing, they'll want and enjoy putting the time into a character. But, GURPS can be deadly sometimes esp for beginners - so random allows for generation without too much investment should it all go south.

Also, solo gaming is really taking off as a hobby of its own now.

So 4e lost a lot of "ease of entry".
I love DF but don't love it.

WHY CALL IT DUNGEON FANTASY IF THAT LINE ALREADY EXISTS??
You just created a good degree of confusion.

Why the 250 point character start? Starting off as super warriors without earning it isn't fun. I guess Sean wanted to show off the capabilities of the system. His sarcastic or irreverent tone talking down to the genre makes it an annoying read. If reaching newer D& D players was the goal with this box, why act as if it's all dumb but hey here you go? These players haven't been around since the 80's.

But I'll take the presentation and distillation. Very nice.

I feel it can be done even "more" basic than DF, and without as much material cost. Look at the legs of the old box sets. Limited information and options, in a cardboard box. We are all still enamored with them all these years later. They were easy to implement.


I was wondering if it is possible for GURPS  to do a universal "basic box" with a solo.
4E is "complete", but just needs a better point of entry, and less clinical approach and layout. Go back to warm and fuzzy 3e style.

Maybe TFT could be repacked as a basic fantasy start for GURPS (which it is, really) It's a much faster entry and start up.

Welcome to the Site!

We've had many discussions on Gurps, on some of the exact topics you brought up. This thread from 2021 might be relevant:

Quote(Phil Masters) basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/there-will-not-be-a-gurps-5th-edition/

I think Phil has moved on from SJG since then. I haven't checked their forums for a while, so I don't know the current status of the game or the company.

Also, this one specifically on DF:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/any-dungeon-fantasy-fans-here/

So, here's my best advice.  Get GURPS Lite, Characters, and Banestorm or Fantasy in .pdf.  Banestorm has more stuff but, personally, I think the template builds in Fantasy are more reasonable.

Print out Lite, the magic rules and templates from Characters, and some related templates from Banestorm or Fantasy.  Give your players the booklet you've created and have them build 100 point characters from the contents.  That'll give you characters well suited to playing The Keep On The Borderlands without introducing or allowing a bunch of stuff you don't want them to ask for or even concieve of.

No, that's not a particularly slick solution.  Yes SJG could do it with a minimum of effort but they want you to buy Characters, Campaigns, Magic, Fantasy, and Bane Storm, so it's not really in their best interests.

You could also purchase The Dungeon Fantasy rpg and one supplement, "Delvers to Go" I think, maybe, there's one with lower points templates.

Why not stick to The Fantasy Trip? It's the superior system, that's why they brought it back and largely dropped GURPS

Thank you.
And thank youfor the input.

Phil Masters just released a product, The Reptile Races , over at SJG and was on the forums, so he is still at it.

As for what to do, I'm a "RPG collector"/rules reader. I have been a GURPS collector for some time and have managed to get great copies of most of the 4e hard covers from the 2000s, 3e and 2nd e,  many source books, PDFs and the DF box set (with delvers, 🙂).
That's what I would likely use so great advice. Also have TFT and various supplements.

So I have everything I need. I know you guys have been around the horse on this topic. It's a tough one to resolve, what direction the game should go. I think most people would like to see "a direction", other than existing. I do see their point with market saturation, D&D dominance, etc. What would it avail as 4e is so complete?

Quote from: JeremyR on October 01, 2024, 03:33:07 AMWhy not stick to The Fantasy Trip? It's the superior system, that's why they brought it back and largely dropped GURPS

You aren't wrong. I love The Fantasy Trip. We are having fun with it and even just playing Melee and Wizard on the table is great for an evening of fun.

I solo game with a TFT clone, Dark City Games adventures.

I'd like SJ to put out a 3rd edition TFT with, like 4e ironically, better layout and organization, bunch of Hexagram stuff added.

 I guess the increased crunch of GURPS is that siren song.

Quote from: doomfarer1 on October 01, 2024, 06:02:01 AMThank you.
And thank youfor the input.

Phil Masters just released a product, The Reptile Races , over at SJG and was on the forums, so he is still at it.

As for what to do, I'm a "RPG collector"/rules reader. I have been a GURPS collector for some time and have managed to get great copies of most of the 4e hard covers from the 2000s, 3e and 2nd e,  many source books, PDFs and the DF box set (with delvers, 🙂).
That's what I would likely use so great advice. Also have TFT and various supplements.

So I have everything I need. I know you guys have been around the horse on this topic. It's a tough one to resolve, what direction the game should go. I think most people would like to see "a direction", other than existing. I do see their point with market saturation, D&D dominance, etc. What would it avail as 4e is so complete?

It is exactly the "completeness" of 4E that is such a barrier to new players or to old players like myself that don't have the time to go in and essentially edit a book to contain just what is desired for a given campaign. I think a series of targeted books based on the core rules for each genre without all the other stuff that isn't applicable would be great.

"It is exactly the "completeness" of 4E that is such a barrier to new players or to old players like myself that don't have the time to go in and essentially edit a book to contain just what is desired for a given campaign. I think a series of targeted books based on the core rules for each genre without all the other stuff that isn't applicable would be great."

Right. That is what we all want.

I would say DFRPG "powered by" GURPS Box set would appeal. It's quite comprehensive and easy to put into practice. But I would like to see do something even more "basic" for low-skilled characters, there's less to keep track of for new recruits. Also the tone of the writing in DFRPG is a complete turn-off.

I know why he made it 250 pts, as 5e D&D is high-powered. But it isn't nearly as fun as fearing for your life.

Could a "basic" box set still be universal? Pick 3 -5 genres. Many advantages carry over or color code them in the text for that genre if specific. 100 skills total. Color coded. GM guide. 100 monsters. 2 adventures and a solo. Map and counters. Then Get it into local stores Men in Black!

From the other side of the fence, standalone books don't seem to be a cure-all. Hero Games did three for 6th Edition HERO System--Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, and Western Hero--and they seem to have achieved modest success at best. And while SJG has advantages that Hero Games doesn't, they have the problem that it's probably hard to justify devoting more than minimal resources to GURPS when Munchkin is so much more successful.

Quote from: David Johansen on September 30, 2024, 10:02:33 PMSo, here's my best advice.  Get GURPS Lite, Characters, and Banestorm or Fantasy in .pdf.  Banestorm has more stuff but, personally, I think the template builds in Fantasy are more reasonable.

Print out Lite, the magic rules and templates from Characters, and some related templates from Banestorm or Fantasy.  Give your players the booklet you've created and have them build 100 point characters from the contents. 

*snip*

You could also purchase The Dungeon Fantasy rpg and one supplement, "Delvers to Go" I think, maybe, there's one with lower points templates.

I'll have to check those out.   I've always been interested in trying GURPS but haven't found an intro game at my local FLGS to test it out since I've stopped going to conventions.  The depth and breadth of the rules have in a way prevented me from just casually picking it up.  I'm unfamiliar with The Dungeon Fantasy so will have to check that out as well.  Is it also a 3d6 point buy system?

Okay RNGm, if you just want a look at the rules download GURPS Lite.  It's free and it's actually pretty comprehensive.  Not the kind of nerfed, cut down quickstart you might be expecting.  There's also a free solitaire adventure, "All In A Night's Work" and a GM'd adventure "Caravan To Ain Erris".

For a complete starter, GURPS Girl Genius, GURPS Vorkosigiann, and GURPS Disc World are all stand alone in one book games.   Dungeon Fantasy is, what the author calls GURPS Medium which aparently means half a page of armour weights by size and body part.

Quote from: David Johansen on October 02, 2024, 09:41:47 AMOkay RNGm, if you just want a look at the rules download GURPS Lite.  It's free and it's actually pretty comprehensive.  Not the kind of nerfed, cut down quickstart you might be expecting.  There's also a free solitaire adventure, "All In A Night's Work" and a GM'd adventure "Caravan To Ain Erris".

Gurps Lite 4E doesn't have any magic, so it's pretty useless for fantasy. At least the fantasy games most people want to play.

Gurps Lite 3E does have magic, albeit only 2 pages with 14 spells.

Quote from: doomfarer1 on September 30, 2024, 06:04:48 PMI love GURPS. Unapologetically.
I never get to play it though

Much is said by this.

Run a game. Then you'll have answers to your questions, and many more you haven't asked yet.

It says so much. I take solace in running TFT. I could easily get them into GURPS but i went with faster simpler for this beginner group, and I hadn't run a game in a very long time.

Would soloing count?

What are your opinions on these lofty issues Kyle?

Also, Could a boxed universal Basic starter set be viable? After all it is a main selling point.

Quote from: Aglondir on October 02, 2024, 08:25:04 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on October 02, 2024, 09:41:47 AMOkay RNGm, if you just want a look at the rules download GURPS Lite.  It's free and it's actually pretty comprehensive.  Not the kind of nerfed, cut down quickstart you might be expecting.  There's also a free solitaire adventure, "All In A Night's Work" and a GM'd adventure "Caravan To Ain Erris".

Gurps Lite 4E doesn't have any magic, so it's pretty useless for fantasy. At least the fantasy games most people want to play.

Gurps Lite 3E does have magic, albeit only 2 pages with 14 spells.

I appreciate the suggestion but the magic would be key.  Obviously I could house rule in magic from the mainline GURPS fantasy book but that somewhat defeats the purpose of using the lite rules variant.   One reason the dungeon fantasy piqued my interest  is that it seems like an all-in-one purchase for a fantasy GURPS.   I have zero idea though if it's actually lighter than normal current edition GURPS let alone fully in the rules light category.   When I was younger, crunch was king but in my middle age I just prefer elegance that gives you 80% of the feel/effect with 20% of the rules.  YMMV.