TheRPGSite

Cross posted from RPGnet because I know there are some hardcore GURPS fans here who don't visit that board.

So, I have a passing familiarity with GURPS having purchased it (2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3rd ed revised, 4th ed) no less than 6 times...and selling it of each time. Having never been enamored with it I never played it (although I would like to at least once) and thus have no real indication of how it holds up in play.

So...without going all fanboy on me and trying to make a square peg fit seamlessly into a round hole I have a couple questions.

1)Does any edition of GURPS do generic fantasy (when I say "generic" or "traditional" fantasy I mean RPG fantasy, which roughly breaks down to D&D-esque fantasy. That is what I'm interested in and the core of the thread) right out of the box without buying any supplemental material? By that I mean, does it have details of the standard races of fantasy? Does it have a fantasy spell list/system? Does it have monsters and magic treasure?

2)Since I'm pretty sure the answer is no, what supplement(s) would you want for "generic" fantasy? I've seen and purchased a lot of GURPS fantasy stuff, but seem to recall most of it being anything but "generic". For example, I remember the Fantasy Folk book doing some things I really hated just to purposely break away from tradition (I think what they did with Goblins was the biggest perpetration). The fantasy setting was just goofy (with religion and races and stuff again, trying to break the mold just to break the mold).

3)Does 4th edition Fantasy handle this better (or should I say, "more like I want it to be") than the previous editions? If so, can you use it with older editions of the game? Is it complete for fantasy (bestiary, magic items, spells) or is it yet another book that makes you buy more books?

4)Has any fan done this online? If there isn't an official supplement that handles this (the way I'm looking for), has anyone online created a document that covers all the basics of D&D-esque fantasy for GURPS?

5)How would GURPS stand up to straightforward conversions of D&D material? For example, lets say we are running Rise of the Runelords right now...how well would that convert if we wanted to start using GURPS instead of D&D? How much work would it be for the GM (honestly). How much of a different feel would the game have using GURPS instead of D&D 3.5?

Any other comments or suggestions would be appreciated, but I'd like to leave the thread about GURPS, so if people can refrain from suggesting other game systems or saying "just play D&D" it would be appreciated.

Thanks all

Grubman,

 You really need to browse at the SJG forums...daily or weekly.

GURPS 4/e handles Fantasy just fine.

 Two or three people on there are playing versions of Forgotten Realms using the GURPS rules. Same is true of the Eberron setting.

 I ran a BANESTORM mini-campaign a year ago. Thats a general Fantasy setting.

- Ed C.

With just a casual search I find this :

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=8567&highlight=Forgotten+Realms

...and this:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=30554&highlight=Forgotten+Realms

...and this:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=26758&highlight=Dungeons+Dragons

Like Mind flayers? :
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=25079&highlight=Dungeons+Dragons

Gurps does D&Desque fantasy, but it won't really do it right out of the box. You have to have some guidelines for the rules. If you want to use Gurps, you need support for magic and fantasy tropes. Gurps has books for that.

Or, you could use D&D stuff for support. The basic books give you enough to convert what you're looking for, I think. But you have to have a firm grasp on the rules. Oh--and you will want to convert some things from D&D first, without any strictures on point values, to find the baseline for the point values you want to consider. You may want to convert average examples of first level versions of different class/race combinations to see what kind of impact things like enhanced vision and direction sense have on point values of starting packages. then do fifth level, then a couple monsters.

I'm sure someone has done this work already and posted it somewhere. I mean--in addition to the links posted above. It sounds like a lot of work when you look at it all at once.

Quickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures (http://tailkinker.batcave.net/rpg.htm), it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

I'll have more in a second... sorry just wanted to get this up.

Edit: Banestorm in 4th is the setting from 3rd Fantasy. It is much more detailed and improved but It still has the differences that you dislike.

Quote from: KoltarYou really need to browse at the SJG forums...daily or weekly.

I'd have to become a GURPS fan to do that, now wouldn't I.

As for right now, I can usually get the info I need from these "generic" forums which I vastly prefere to game specific forums.

P.S.  I knew you would be here to reply to this one. ;)

Quote from: darQuickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures (http://tailkinker.batcave.net/rpg.htm), it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

I'll have more in a second... sorry just wanted to get this up.

Edit: Banestorm in 4th is the setting from 3rd Fantasy. It is much more detailed and improved but It still has the differences that you dislike.

I downloaded that one a while ago as it was suggested on RPGnet.  It looks like just the kind of thing I was looking for (provided it is balanced).

In any case, I'm considering all the possibilities (of what our group will convert to) for when 4E rolls out.  If I went with GURPS I would stick with the 3rd edition anyway, as the 4th is way too cumbersome for me to even consider.

WHAT??!!?

 Fourth Edition GURPS is easier to use than third edition was for that kind of thing.


- Ed C.

No GURPS 4th eh... OK.

Well just for those listening. You can get away with the two basic sets except for not all the templates you want are there, so you would need to toss in Fantasy.

Really though you can do what you want with just the two basic books. I do wish you liked 4th more.

And never forget the Random Monster Generator (http://www.servedhot.net/GURPS/Random%20monster%20generator.html).

Sorry.... but there is the rpg.net wiki (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/List_of_unofficial_GURPS_Netbooks).

(hey! is there an rpgsite wiki?!?!)

Quote from: KoltarFourth Edition GURPS is easier to use than third edition was for that kind of thing.

I agree with you... but... op and all...

I just read some of that thread (OK speed read it). Some good ideas there. But seeing that your hooked on 3rd then I'd suggest, other than the already mentioned, the basic book, fantasy bestiary, and fantasy races (dropping or changing the races you don't like).

Pick the D&D setting of your choice. Just don't stick to it very closely.

GURPS 3rd is fantastic for low-powered fantasy.  It's really what the game was designed for, and it shows pretty plainly in the core book, at least to me.  

The corebook's magic system is pretty sp[arse though, it has the core rules, but few spells, so you'll want to nab Magic and/or Grimoire.

You'll probably want some critters too, and I think there's a monster book or two.

It really just depends on how much you want to build by hand, and how much you want to convert.

AstralRunners post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=8027111&postcount=14) at the other site of a quote from Sean Punch is so fucking cool.

I'd totally forgot about it. I gotta try it.

Just for completeness:

QuoteHere is a post on the subject by Dr. Punch*, GURPS line editor:

QuoteMercator already beat me to my intended linkage. Seriously, you can do dungeoneering just fine in GURPS. It's just that it's a genre of its own, and like any genre, requires you to use the GURPS tool kit to craft the tools to make the tools to build the campaign. GURPS doesn't leap out of the box ready to tackle dungeon crawls. Aside from my big, long post, bear in mind a few things:

1. Ignore sensible limits! Don't stick to human norms on attributes, for instance; be open to fighters with ST 22 and HP 28. Let wizards have Magery 11. Allow artificers to have 27 Gizmos if they have the points. Put no upper limit on Serendipity levels. Much of the fun of dungeon-crawling is unfettered "levelling up." And characters can use extreme abilities for extreme stacking and synergy (see below).

2. You can never have too many different powers! Never, ever -- but never -- just have spell-based, mana-dependent magic. At minimum, also have divine magic ("cleric spells") that rely on sanctity rather than mana, and that don't care about Magic Resistance, etc. And you'll probably want spirit-mediated sorcery, either in the sense of ritual magic or an out-and-out power; chi abilities; and probably several flavors of weird-science artificing for alchemists, dwarves, etc. Having all of this stuff in play makes stacking and synergizing (see below) far more effective. The object here is to let all the different approaches to the same fantastic effect work together; if you can only get +5 to ST from a given source, but potions, prayers, spells, and spirit possession coexist, then you can get +20!

3. Don't be afraid to "stack" and synergize. In my current campaign, I have one PC whose big damage output comes from having high ST (ST 17), Weapon Master to score him +2 per die on his 3d-1 swing damage (so +6, or just under another 2d), and a sword that's both fine (+1) and magical (+1). In addition, he often fights demons, and his sword has both a magical bonus (+3) and a divine bonus (+3) vs. demons . . . and I let his Higher Purpose as a Demon-Slayer add its +1 to damage rolls, too. Finally, he has Extra Attack, so it all happens twice per turn. Against demons, he rolls something like 3d+14 (equivalent to 7d), twice a turn. Another PC stacks up Weapon Master, Power Blow (which, with FP 22, isn't a problem), and a nice sword to score 5d+11 (equivalent to 8d) once a turn. And a third layers inhuman ST (ST 24) with a scaled-up huge sword given to him by a god to toss out 4d+8 (about 6d+1) every turn . . . with the added benefit that the god's power lets him burn HP to disrupt his foe's HP, making maximum damage unbounded provided the user wants to go kamikaze. And all of these guys sometimes benefit from Might spells and elixirs of strength to boost ST even further, and have been known to add fire, frost, etc., to their blades courtesy of the group's alchemist.

The key thing is to encourage advantage-buying over everything elese, which lets players munchkinize in-play effects like buffs, damage, and healing. You want to avoid attribute-and-skill munchkinization at character creation. So it's fine for a wizard to know five spells and have Magery 10 to go crazily past their normal limits . . . but try to avoid letting him buy 100 spells at high levels thanks to IQ 20. Warriors should have an incentive to take ST and Weapon Master and a pile of Signature Gear for a cool weapon . . . but not just tons of DX. And so on.

And here (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=27972) is a thread in which Dr. Punch makes several such contributions.

*Random Trivia: The "Dr." is not part of a nickname; he actually does hold a doctorate of physics. You never can tell where you'll end up, can you?

If you want to run and play the game out of just one book - like if you have to travel to GM and can't be arsed carrying them - then I would go for GURPS 3e. It has combat, spells and a fair equipment list; it lacks monsters and races, but a capable GM can come up with those themselves, or at least swipe them from someone's webpage after an hour or so with google. If you're really keen and can pick them up cheap on ebay, GURPS Low-Tech and Magic[/b] are good - but not essential.

If you're GMing at home and don't have to carry the books, then I'd go for 4e. The GM will need GURPS Characters, Campaigns, Magic, and I'd recommend GURPS Fantasy as it's an excellent resource for fantasy campaign design. Players will need a copy of GURPS Characters if they're all creating their characters separately at home - if around the table, the players need no books, but some of the downloadable free products from e23 will be good, so that they'll have skill lists and so on to choose from.

I would say also to consider your likely players. Systems are like nukes: use it or lose it! If you're not using it all, get rid of it and get something you will use. To my mind, complexity and detail in a game's mechanics are fun when most of the players are into them, and not when they're not. If you find yourself having to handwave a lot of things because the players don't know and aren't interested in the rules, then I'd go for a lighter system. But if your players really love all that detail, then 4e is good, you can get a lot out of the combats and so on. 3e is the compromise.

(http://home.iprimus.com.au/kyle3166/Personal%20images/GurpsCompleteCollection.jpg)

For my part, I love that detail as a player, and but am not much interested in it as a GM. But most players I know aren't into that stuff, and I'm lucky if they read enough of the rules to create a character, let alone buy the rules and study them closely enough that they themselves could GM. So recently I've set aside GURPS. Not a fault of the system, it's just the players I've had - same way I set aside Call of Cthulhu since I had players who cracked jokes all the time. I had to choose the system to match the players!

Edit: oh, and my Big List of Links has a few fantasy campaigns in it...

Quote from: darQuickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures (http://tailkinker.batcave.net/rpg.htm), it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

I'll have more in a second... sorry just wanted to get this up.

Edit: Banestorm in 4th is the setting from 3rd Fantasy. It is much more detailed and improved but It still has the differences that you dislike.

That's pretty fuckin' sweet.  It's like everything you need that isn't in core, all in one nice neat package.  

Makes me want to pick up GURPS 3e again, or just DL GURPS lite, and run it just looking at it.

I'm not a "die hard" 3e fan, so feel free to try and "sell me" if you like, I'm open minded.  4e was the last edition of the rules I purchased (got the first two books hot off the press).  I couldn't even get throguh them they were just so long, boring, and detailed.

Now, I like to have an open mind, and as I age my prefrences change.  I re-read things I didn't like a decade ago and find I like them more now.  On the other hand, some game sthat I was in love with years ago I re-read and go, man, these rules suck, good thing I was playing a house-rule version of the game.

So I'll be blunt and honest (If no one flames me on it!)  with all the information coming out about about 4E D&D, my group has pretty much decided that we will part ways with D&D when it comes out.

This means that we have to find a "replacement" system for fantasy games (as I don't want to stick with 3.5 either).  Not sure what we will use because I've already disqualified almost every RPG in the history of the hobby....so, I'm back at square one taking a second look at games I haven't touched for years, and never actually played.

The reason I look at 3rd ed GURPS as a viable option rather than 4th is because it is all wrapped up in one nice neat package.  How can a system that used to require 1 book now require 2 or 3 books that are larger in size and NOT be a bigger burden to learn and use?

Quote from: J ArcaneThat's pretty fuckin' sweet.  It's like everything you need that isn't in core, all in one nice neat package.  

Makes me want to pick up GURPS 3e again, or just DL GURPS lite, and run it just looking at it.

That's what I was looking for too.  I just wish it was an "official" supplement, or I had proof that it wasn't riddled with problems.  If any Gurps fanboy can tell me it's not an unbalanced fan work I'd appreciate it. :)

I think you are looking at 4e the wrong way. It is more accurate to describe it as a toolbox to make your own game, than a game itself.

Grubman,

GURPS actually "shrank" the needed books from 3 or 4 to 2 books when they made the current edition of the game.  In the late '90s, the GURPS Compenpiums I and II were almost necessary to play any GURPS game.
For 4th edition they moved the much of the masterial into the basic two rule books of (CHARACTERS, CAMPAIGNS)

To run what you want to, you could do it with just the two main books and your own creativity. If you want more detail and help, try GURPS: FANTASY and GURPS : MAGIC.  The current 4th edition version of Fantasy is just a straight toolbook for those people trying to creayte their own Fantasy campaign. All that stuff that you probab;ly didn't like in the old 15 years ago version of FANTASY has been shifted into BANESTORM (which I still like)

- Ed C.

Quote from: whiteyfatsI think you are looking at 4e the wrong way. It is more accurate to describe it as a toolbox to make your own game, than a game itself.

Oh I know what it is, but I also know that there is nothing wrong with having the core elements there.  If I wanted to do everything I would just write my own game.  Some people like to do more with the rules bit, some less.  When it comes to RPGs I don't want to mess with creating rules, I want to expend my energies on teh "creative" part of the game, writing adventures and running sessions.

I don't want to have to sit htere and guess what skills should be avaliable, or what equipment is time-appropriate.  I want to get to the fun stuff, making memerable game sessions.

Quote from: grubmanThe reason I look at 3rd ed GURPS as a viable option rather than 4th is because it is all wrapped up in one nice neat package.  How can a system that used to require 1 book now require 2 or 3 books that are larger in size and NOT be a bigger burden to learn and use?

I think you have a very mistaken assumption here.  3rd edition is not wrapped up in one nice neat edition at all.  To really use it, requires the two compendiums (I think that's what they were called).  They were considered a fundamental part of the basic game.  And there is a tons of inconsistencies.  4th edition is really nicely tied together in the two core books.  

The classic GURPS fantasy setting is Banestorm.  You should check that out.

All that being said, GURPS has a very different feel than D&D.  I think it runs D&D type fantasy really well. I've played in a small campaign of it and a friend of mine has been running a long-term campaign that the players, all newbies to roleplaying or previous 3.5 only players, are quite enjoying.  He also runs a great one shot CSI:Gondor (murder in middle earth).

So it definitely can be done and done well.  But the system has a totally different design concept than D&D. It's granular and it's "realistic".  By realistic, I mean that character development choices are wide-open but limited to the world's internal logic.  You don't get those sudden leaps and bounds in power that you do in D&D.  Personally, I find the granularity and choice far more satisfying than D&D, but the combat can be a little too granular.  While combat in D&D sucks, it is still fairly abstract and big crazy things can happen.  I have found these tend not too happen so much in GURPS (though this probably depends on the looseness of the GM and there are probably some things you could tweak).

It's also a very crunchy system and if you've got min-maxers, if they like the style of the system, they are going to find some pretty interesting and effective builds.  The system is really robust, so it's doubtful they'll break anything, but they'll keep you on your toes as a GM, making you work to come up with challenges, especially as power goes up (and it can go way up).

It's a very intricate, well-constructed machine.  Actually quite beautiful in many ways.  But I find it's thoroughness tends to impose itself on my games and slows them down.  But it's also very freeing for players, particularly with character choice, both at chargen and as they develop, which I found to be a massive improvement over D&D for fantasy.

Maybe if you described the play style of the group, what they liked about 3.5 (I assume that's what they were playing), what they didn't like.  What kind of situations they enjoyed, etc. we can give you a better prognosis of how GURPS would fit.

Walker-man,

...about the combat thing. I tend change session to session how detailed I go with it as a GM.

 If the players have had a rough work week - then I really use the damage charts and let them see how much damage they are infliucting.

 If they seem more into the character and story stuff thats going - then shorten it to just the bare essentials of whats need for combat.

There are plenty of shortcuts you can use with GURPS Combat without thinking of them as "House Rules" .

Compare it to some movies and TV shows , some fight scenes they do the slow-mo, overly artsy camera work so you can see in detail whats going on in the fight. In other fight scenes, its just a quick one or two punches or a roundhouse kick done at normal camera speed.

 I look at gaming a combat scenes the same way  - you don't always have to do the detailed version and youi can stay within the rules while changing it up occassionally.

 - Ed C.

Quote from: walkerpI think you have a very mistaken assumption here.  3rd edition is not wrapped up in one nice neat edition at all.  To really use it, requires the two compendiums (I think that's what they were called).  They were considered a fundamental part of the basic game.  

Perhaps you are right, but you have to understand my point of view.  GURPS 3rd did very nicely BEFORE those thick Compendiums came out for people like myself who don't need all those details.  I respect a good framework of rules, but don't get all anal about them and need every one spelled out and difined to the tee without a question.

Grubman,

 How about if I send you one of the books in the snail-mail?
The 4th edition ones of course.


 I feel like being a Klingon "Santa" this year.

Your choice: CHARACTERs, CAMPAIGNS, FANTASY , or MAGIC.


- Ed C.


Hey, you save some money that way and might try the system.....

Quote from: KoltarGrubman,

 How about if I send you one of the books in the snail-mail?
The 4th edition ones of course.


 I feel like being a Klingon "Santa" this year.

Your choice: CHARACTERs, CAMPAIGNS, FANTASY , or MAGIC.


- Ed C.


Hey, you save some money that way and might try the system.....

Well that is really about the most intense "sell me" argument I've ever heard!  Someone must really love GURPS! :)

Pretty happy with it , yep.

I like snail-mail too.

 

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarI like snail-mail too.

Well me to, since, being a city letter carrier, I wouldn't have a job without it :).

Quote from: grubmanWhen it comes to RPGs I don't want to mess with creating rules, I want to expend my energies on teh "creative" part of the game, writing adventures and running sessions.

I don't want to have to sit htere and guess what skills should be avaliable, or what equipment is time-appropriate.  I want to get to the fun stuff, making memerable game sessions.

This is the number one reason I like GURPS. Fourth edition more so. It is a collection of well thought out and tested integrated pieces that just kinda belong together.

As far as the completeness leading to abuse, in my experience minmaxers and ruleslawers that are problems in a given game will be a problem in any game or not be in the game. Arguing about rules made up on the spot with problem players is even worse, most times they see it as an opportunity to directly twist the game.

If you start out with 3rd and if you find that as power increases things get more awkward, consider switching to 4th.

Edit: Note I didn't say 'perfect' rules.

Quote from: grubmanPerhaps you are right, but you have to understand my point of view.  GURPS 3rd did very nicely BEFORE those thick Compendiums came out for people like myself who don't need all those details.  I respect a good framework of rules, but don't get all anal about them and need every one spelled out and difined to the tee without a question.

Oh, well in that case, then you're probably fine with just the 3rd edition book.  GURPS 4th does spell most things out.  I think it's nice for the players to have all the options in one book and Characters does that.  But the Campaigns book isn't really necessary if you get the core 3d6, roll-under mechanic.  I'd say the main difference, then, between 3rd and 4th is that the latter fixes the problem where players would max out INT and DX.  Benefits are better distributed across the four core attributes now.

I think fantasy types in the GURPS community are quite excited about the new magic book (Thaumaturgica Magic or something?  Koltar, help me out here) coming out (and were never too excited about the original Magic).  My memory is very hazy now, but it sounds like there may be some creative, cool magic options there.  I think that's where GURPS shines, is in giving your players all kinds of choices, but as Kyle mentioned, this requires a certain level of system buy-in from players.  If they do buy-in, books like Powers and Martial Arts open the system up to all kinds of creativity.  You can make really cool non-spell-based magic users or magical creatures with Powers, for instance.

I use GURPS for online games, where the 3d6 roll under mechanic helps us resolve conflicts easily, and the players can tweak and customize their character development.  But it does not have tons of flavour and for me tends to bog down in combat, so I stick with Savage Worlds at the table.  If I were to do fantasy, I probably would use a lot of the rules for character development, but keep things loose in combat, as Koltar suggested.

Quote from: grubmanPerhaps you are right, but you have to understand my point of view.  GURPS 3rd did very nicely BEFORE those thick Compendiums came out for people like myself who don't need all those details.  I respect a good framework of rules, but don't get all anal about them and need every one spelled out and difined to the tee without a question.

I agree on this entirely.  All I ever owned and played with was GURPS core, and like, one or two sourcebooks I grabbed because the material sounded interesting.  The 3e core was a nice, complete, if basic, package, capable of running a lot of stuff out of the box, and even more if you were willing to make up some stuff.

The completism that kind of took over the game didn't really come into play until you started buying some of the later sourcebooks, and their policy of relentless cross-referencing starts meaning that you need to buy like half-a-dozen books jut to understand the one you just bought.

Quote from: grubmanCross posted from RPGnet because I know there are some hardcore GURPS fans here who don't visit that board.

Quote from: grubmanSo, I have a passing familiarity with GURPS having purchased it (2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3rd ed revised, 4th ed) no less than 6 times...and selling it of each time. Having never been enamored with it I never played it (although I would like to at least once) and thus have no real indication of how it holds up in play.

So...without going all fanboy on me and trying to make a square peg fit seamlessly into a round hole I have a couple questions.

Quote from: grubman1)Does any edition of GURPS do generic fantasy (when I say "generic" or "traditional" fantasy I mean RPG fantasy, which roughly breaks down to D&D-esque fantasy. That is what I'm interested in and the core of the thread) right out of the box without buying any supplemental material? By that I mean, does it have details of the standard races of fantasy? Does it have a fantasy spell list/system? Does it have monsters and magic treasure?

You have to do work to do straight D&D style fantasy with monsters. If you have sentient centric plot then yes GURPS (any edition) plus Magic (for that edition) will do just fine.

Quote from: grubman2)Since I'm pretty sure the answer is no, what supplement(s) would you want for "generic" fantasy? I've seen and purchased a lot of GURPS fantasy stuff, but seem to recall most of it being anything but "generic". For example, I remember the Fantasy Folk book doing some things I really hated just to purposely break away from tradition (I think what they did with Goblins was the biggest perpetration). The fantasy setting was just goofy (with religion and races and stuff again, trying to break the mold just to break the mold).

GURPS 4th + GURPS 4th Magic + GURPS Fantasy + Natural Encyclopedia http://www.tesarta.com/HFP/Welcome_files/NatEnc-beta.pdf

Perhaps GURPS Banestorm

Quote from: grubman3)Does 4th edition Fantasy handle this better (or should I say, "more like I want it to be") than the previous editions? If so, can you use it with older editions of the game? Is it complete for fantasy (bestiary, magic items, spells) or is it yet another book that makes you buy more books?

Converting monster a lot easier with 4th because of the way advantages and disadvantages work now.

Quote from: grubman4)Has any fan done this online? If there isn't an official supplement that handles this (the way I'm looking for), has anyone online created a document that covers all the basics of D&D-esque fantasy for GURPS?

It is in bits and pieces by various people but no GURPS Dungeon Crawl exists at the moments.

Quote from: grubman5)How would GURPS stand up to straightforward conversions of D&D material? For example, lets say we are running Rise of the Runelords right now...how well would that convert if we wanted to start using GURPS instead of D&D? How much work would it be for the GM (honestly). How much of a different feel would the game have using GURPS instead of D&D 3.5?

I have converted number D20 modules (mostly goodman games and expeditous retreat modules) for GURPS. It works within reason. The main difference are two things

1) Combat is both less deadly and more deadly. PCs can hold out for a long time but once the tipping point is reached they will go down fast. You can't be stupid using the full blown GURPS combat system. The reason for this is defense. In D&D you are wearing down hit points over time. In GURPS you are defending the moment you can't defend you will be hurt and in the second round die.

2) I recommend following all the advice on game balance in GURPS Magic (Rule of 16, etc. A GURPS mage has a harder time with killing a lot of things compared to a d20 mage but are able to protect themselves quite well and can be very deadly on a one and one basis.

Quote from: grubmanAny other comments or suggestions would be appreciated, but I'd like to leave the thread about GURPS, so if people can refrain from suggesting other game systems or saying "just play D&D" it would be appreciated.

I don't have a coherent system for D&D style GURPS but you can get a general sense of how a GURPS game world works that had its origins firmly in AD&D at this link here.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands

Rob Conley

Quote from: darQuickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures (http://tailkinker.batcave.net/rpg.htm), it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

This is a fantastic resource for using D20 stuff in a GURPS fantasy world

Quote from: grubmanThe reason I look at 3rd ed GURPS as a viable option rather than 4th is because it is all wrapped up in one nice neat package.  How can a system that used to require 1 book now require 2 or 3 books that are larger in size and NOT be a bigger burden to learn and use?

In a nutshell GURPS 4th edition is a better crafted game than 3rd. I know that is a subjective evaluation but I played a lot of different RPGS and wargames and I feel that GURPS 4th has a lot more craftmanship behind it. SJ Games has always done well crafted games and GURPS 4th shows the result of their experience.

The most telling example is how advantages and disadvantages work in 4th. They really allow you to duplicate a wide range of effects with the core rules. It will take work to make any one genre but the basics are all there. So while are you buying two books with 4th you are also getting a more flexible system that hangs together better.

Now from my point of view (and a shelf full of 3rd edition books) I put a lot work into my 3rd edition game. But I switched to 4th because for the first since I started played GURPS (in 1989) I could make monsters that work like D&D monsters. Now arguably you could this with a combination of 3rd and GURPS Companion I but 4th really hones it and makes it work.

Quote from: estarIt is in bits and pieces by various people but no GURPS Dungeon Crawl exists at the moments.

Just a real quick note...I don't consider "Dungeon Crawls" to be a definition for D&D at all.  When I say D&D-esqu, I more or less mean the type of genre that developed because of D&D (which could also be defined as Tolkienesque...with a lot more magic thrown into the mix, and a bit of Saturday morning cartoons (for my particular style)).

Quote from: grubmanI don't want to have to sit htere and guess what skills should be avaliable, or what equipment is time-appropriate.  I want to get to the fun stuff, making memerable game sessions.

That what templates are for which 4th edition has a lot of. 3rd edition has them in separate books (Wizard, Warriors, Rouges, etc)

Quote from: grubmanJust a real quick note...I don't consider "Dungeon Crawls" to be a definition for D&D at all.  When I say D&D-esqu, I more or less mean the type of genre that developed because of D&D (which could also be defined as Tolkienesque...with a lot more magic thrown into the mix, and a bit of Saturday morning cartoons (for my particular style)).

On the SJ Games Forums GURPS Dungeon Crawl is the most common title for when people describe what you want out of GURPS. Doesn't mean it limited to only dungeon crawls.

Quote from: grubmanWell that is really about the most intense "sell me" argument I've ever heard!  Someone must really love GURPS! :)

I bought two of my good friends GURPS Characters 4th edition when I got a good bonus last years. It helped sell them on GURPS and they are regular players now.

I've been pestering SJG to put out some streamlined entry point books for lite 4e for a long time now.

But yeah, what you'll need is the whole basic set plus Magic or Fantasy or Bane Storm.  Just one more reason I'm back to my self publishing kick.  $200 just to start running fantasy is ridiculous.

Third edition does work mostly okay some of the time when it comes to Fantasy and that's a whole lot better than it does anything else.

Have you considered Mongoose's Rune Quest?  It might be closer to what you're looking for.

Quote from: David JohansenI've been pestering SJG to put out some streamlined entry point books for lite 4e for a long time now.

But yeah, what you'll need is the whole basic set plus Magic or Fantasy or Bane Storm.  Just one more reason I'm back to my self publishing kick.  $200 just to start running fantasy is ridiculous.

Third edition does work mostly okay some of the time when it comes to Fantasy and that's a whole lot better than it does anything else.

Have you considered Mongoose's Rune Quest?  It might be closer to what you're looking for.

Ha ha!  I suggested this a year or so back on RPGnet, even outlined what I think should have been done...and the GURPs fans nailed me to the cross!  It was one of those mega flame threads, even got a cross posting on the GURPS forum from someone telling everyone how I was nuts.  Of course, there were a lot of people on my side, but the representatives from the GURPS community certainly didn't like the idea and thought GURPS Lite was the only entry tool the game needed.

Quote from: grubmanThe reason I look at 3rd ed GURPS as a viable option rather than 4th is because it is all wrapped up in one nice neat package.  How can a system that used to require 1 book now require 2 or 3 books that are larger in size and NOT be a bigger burden to learn and use?

The reason GURPS 3e has one book (well, sort of) and 4e two is that 3e didn't really do more than fairly 'realistic' low-tech fantasy and near-future post-apocalypse/fantasy with just the Basic Set, whereas 4e provides the tools for much more in the core rules.

I'm of the opinion that 4e is simply better than 3e (as you've probably gathered from the RPGnet posts I've made), but if you really are keen on One Book To Rule Them All, then 3e is better than 4e. However, if you expect to need more than that one book, you'll probably be better off going with 4e (though 3e's books are really cheap these days).

Quote from: grubman[...] the representatives from the GURPS community certainly didn't like the idea and thought GURPS Lite was the only entry tool the game needed.

They're wrong. Like many people talking about complex game systems, they write just from having read the thing, without trying it out in play. I've yet to see even a single campaign webpage describing the playing out of a game with GURPS Lite.
"Oh yeah I've done it... like, totally. It works!"
"Then tell us about it."
"...."

GURPS Lite is useless - too much complexity and detail for those few pages, too little complexity and detail for making the most of what GURPS can actually do.

I agree with Rupert here, in that I say 3e is good if you just want one or two books to use, while 4e is good if you really want to get into a lot of detail.

I don't mention the price issue because gamers regularly spend a hundred or more dollars a week on movies, dvds, cds, computer games, junk food, and so on. And if you don't, then fair enough - John Kim lists over 500 free games on his site, go snag one of them.

That aside, 3e is better to keep the number of books down, 4e is better if you enjoy the detail. I can't recommend Banestorm, I didn't think much of it. Fantasy is an excellent general resource, which I think is worth getting even if you don't play GURPS in any edition.

Quote from: grubmanHa ha!  I suggested this a year or so back on RPGnet, even outlined what I think should have been done...and the GURPs fans nailed me to the cross!  It was one of those mega flame threads, even got a cross posting on the GURPS forum from someone telling everyone how I was nuts.  Of course, there were a lot of people on my side, but the representatives from the GURPS community certainly didn't like the idea and thought GURPS Lite was the only entry tool the game needed.

Found those threads.  Some of you are there.  The first is the RPGnet thread, the second is the GURPS forum response thread. (on a humerous note, I mention 4E...back when it was still a myth):

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=278730

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=18461

Quote from: Kyle AaronThey're wrong. Like many people talking about complex game systems, they write just from having read the thing, without trying it out in play. I've yet to see even a single campaign webpage describing the playing out of a game with GURPS Lite.
"Oh yeah I've done it... like, totally. It works!"
"Then tell us about it."
"...."

GURPS Lite is useless - too much complexity and detail for those few pages, too little complexity and detail for making the most of what GURPS can actually do.

I've been running GURPS Lite for months now because my players are too lazy to use the full books to do their characters properly.  I look at the main books and try to apply them but in practice I have to end up fudging most of it.

I wouldn't say it works "totally."  It's just an action game, nothing like what I had envisioned, but as long as my players are willing, I'll run it.

I've always found GURPS could do a great job of low-level fantasy. It really can't do high fantasy though.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle AaronThey're wrong. Like many people talking about complex game systems, they write just from having read the thing, without trying it out in play. I've yet to see even a single campaign webpage describing the playing out of a game with GURPS Lite.
"Oh yeah I've done it... like, totally. It works!"
"Then tell us about it."
"...."

GURPS Lite is useless - too much complexity and detail for those few pages, too little complexity and detail for making the most of what GURPS can actually do.

The only games of GURPS I've ever run have been with GURPS (3e) Lite.  And I did quite a few of those.

RPGPundit

Quote from: grubman. . . but the representatives from the GURPS community certainly didn't like the idea and thought GURPS Lite was the only entry tool the game needed.

Remembering that there's a difference between "representatives of the GURPS community" and "representatives of SJ Games," of course. I'm not averse to suggestions such as yours at all, but . . . those of us on the design end of things simply don't call the shots. I get my marching orders via the usual chain: Sales tells Marketing what's hot at shops and what's being preordered, Marketing talks to Editor in Chief about paying the needed dollars to staff and freelancers to get stuff like that, EIC authorizes Managing Editor to get that stuff created, ME tells me my next project.

Grubman,

 Why not just go ahead and try it ?

My book offer still stands.

If you run into a hitch -  register on the SJG forums...-OR-   justask questions of the people on here that run GURPS.


- Ed C.

Some of the 3e Powered by Gurps games came pretty close to being playable versions of expanded Gurps Lite. Something I'd like to see in 4e but isn't likely to happen for numerous reasons.

The Discworld RPG was fairly close to Gurps D&D though I think you'd likely need one or two of the magic books and a creatures book (or that online document linked up thread) unless you're willing to stat out a lot of things.

Quote from: KoltarGrubman,

 Why not just go ahead and try it ?

I got a copy of the unrevised 3rd edition hardcover, the specific edition (in hardcover) I'd been searching for for a while.

Rereading it after all these years I have to admit I'm very impressed.  I never realized what a pivitol RPG GURPS was.  I mean, almost every "genreic" RPG I've seen obviously drew heavily from this particular book (and many ohter games).  I see bits here that I've seen in tons of games since.  Savage Worlds, for instance (with all due respect), is almost a clone of GURPS with a diferent system and simplified content...all the elements are the same, and most of the bits.  After reading the book again there is no doubt in my mind that GURPS was close at hand when Shane was working on Savage Worlds.

I also see many elements that were lifted for D20.  Cover really sticks out, becasue of the illustrations.

In any case I would LOVE to give it a try.  I've searched the interenet for anyone in my genral area (around Green Bay Wisconsin) that has an active group (so I could play a session with expereinced players) but can't find anyone.:(

I still have other game systems to go through before I present my final choices to my gaming group, although I'm sure GURPS will be on the short list.  I mentioned it to them casually , but no one jumped at the idea, so I let it reast for now.

Quote from: RPGPunditI've always found GURPS could do a great job of low-level fantasy. It really can't do high fantasy though.

What do you mean by 'high fantasy'? I'll do D&D fantasy handily. I'll do high-powered fantasy handily. I'll do heroic fantasy handily, too.

Quote from: RupertWhat do you mean by 'high fantasy'? I'll do D&D fantasy handily. I'll do high-powered fantasy handily. I'll do heroic fantasy handily, too.

Nope, nope and nope. I don't think GURPS does any of those three particularly well. It does the first and third inelegantly, and the second it can't really do right at all.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNope, nope and nope. I don't think GURPS does any of those three particularly well. It does the first and third inelegantly, and the second it can't really do right at all.

RPGPundit

Maybe Rupert is just the kind of GM where he can make those work with ANY system, he just prefers GURPS or is at a comfort level with it.


- Ed C.




 (Oh God!! Did I just do an accidental versioon of "system doesn't matter" in the above thought???)

Quote from: grubmanIn any case I would LOVE to give it a try.  I've searched the interenet for anyone in my genral area (around Green Bay Wisconsin) that has an active group (so I could play a session with expereinced players) but can't find anyone.:(

You might want to give the SJGames Gamer Finder a try.  

http://www.sjgames.com/gamerfinder/

Only found one guy in Green Bay, but quite a few in Madison (I have no idea of the geography in that area).

Quote from: RPGPunditNope, nope and nope. I don't think GURPS does any of those three particularly well. It does the first and third inelegantly, and the second it can't really do right at all.

Depends what you mean by 'right'. If you mean 'to my [RPGPundit's] taste', I'm happy to assume that you are right, as only you can really know what your opinions and tastes are. However, GURPS certainly can manage high powered fantasy to the satisfaction of others. Kromm's (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/member.php?u=3299) group seems to have had, and be having a blast: http://www.dawnofmagic.net/ (http://www.dawnofmagic.net/) in a high powered game. Maybe you consider that unfair because Kromm is the Line Editor, but his group isn't the only one - there's at least one such campaign been mentioned on the SJGames forums, and at least one other mentioned on the Pyramid boards.

I intend for my current GURPS 4th edition fantasy game to reach high power levels. It started at the 'normal' 150-points, which isn't exactly low-powered any way, and I'm handing out ~5 points per session for the first 5-10 sessions, and intend giving out some nice packages of advantages worth 25-50 points, if only I can get my players to actually decide what they actually want. Thus in 5-6 months (we play fortnightly) it'll be a decently high powered game (with what GURPS calls 'Larger-than-Life' PCs, moving on to 'Legendary' in a year or so), and I'll be able to tell you first-hand whether the system deals with high-powered fantasy.

Oh yes - the game is also fairly D&D-esque (as in I'm running it the same way i'd run a D&D game with the same theme), though not as heavy on the resource management (one reason to use GURPS rather than D&D was I wanted more tactical thinking, and less resource management - we've already done that), and we're intending for the characters to be heroes and do heroic things. I really can't see what's inelegant about GURPS handling of the latter at all. The former, we shall see.