Quote from: David Johansen;1078786One thing I wonder is why they timed two kickstarters right on top of each other.  Don't they kind of eat each other's tail?  The third party one is just about funded but it's entirely new content.  I'd like to back both but with needing to bring in a bunch of books I'm not so sure I can right now.  Maybe a couple bucks for the adventure.

Part of me suspects that someone, or several, at SJG doesnt quite grasp this. Either that or it was a clerical mixup. Id like to think it was a goof rather than incompetence from people who should know better about release timing.

Quote from: Omega;1078990Part of me suspects that someone, or several, at SJG doesnt quite grasp this. Either that or it was a clerical mixup. Id like to think it was a goof rather than incompetence from people who should know better about release timing.

Please chat with Doug Cole and ask his opinion -- and ask about his data -- on the matter.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078980Well, I'm in at the retailer level.  Hopefully it delivers on time this time.

As I look at it, I wonder how something with more new content would sell and how well it would have done without the fan's dollars divided between Monsters 2 and Citadel at Novoren.  I do think having a setting and more adventures will be good.  I can understand the value of settingless, but a Dungeon Fantasy specific setting could be a lot of fun.

Quote from: philreed;1078996Please chat with Doug Cole and ask his opinion -- and ask about his data -- on the matter.

As I am summoned, so I appear.

Thanks to David for calling out Norðvorn, and my thought in following Sean Punch's excellent GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Setting: Caverntown model and turning it up to 11 was to explore the Nordlond setting in a way that I found extremely compelling, and which got no small amount of positive feedback when I used it on Isfjall in Hall of Judgment.

I don't know what the SJG side looks like. For me, since I have a tendency to be fairly open with this stuff:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3242[/ATTACH]

There are three important inflection points in the graph.

From the left:

1) I emailed my mailing list for Gaming Ballistic and reminded them that the KS was going on and that it was about 40% funded.

2) The Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 2 and Boxed Set reprint Kickstarter launched, and Phil very graciously mentioned it in more than one press release/Kickstarter update.

3) A bunch of really die-hard GURPS fans (including myself) did quite the little push in our circles to attract more interest.

For the first two, it's absolutely clear to me that concurrently running both products has been an unmitigated blessing. It's fantastic, very good, awesome, superlative etc.

On March 2, I was staring at $8500 in funding and a trajectory that was much lower than Hall of Judgment. I was worried about making it at all. Then 1 and 2 happened, and we picked up over $2,000 in three days, which brought us exactly even to Hall of Judgment . . .which to date has arguably been my most successful Kickstarter ever.

The third arrow . . . I'm not sure. The trajectory increased to over $500 per day.

To me, at least, the synergy effect of both  campaigns has been great (and I also am in at the Retailer level, plus the extra player's set). I think that "gee, there's enough going on to support two products at once!" is a very loud statement. I can also state that the communication between Gaming Ballistic and Steve Jackson Games is more than sufficient to have prevented this had either company wanted to do so.

I did not. Clearly, they did not, since I take their nudges to me very seriously, as I very much enjoy the professional relationship we're building.

In short: I think the two Kickstarters don't interfere. I at least, routinely back several Kickstarters at once anyway, and many are in the 5e or OSR space, so "more than one KS at once" seems to be the norm rather than the exception. Give all of the "Jon Snow has Backed X," "Jon Snow has Backed Y," "Jon Snow has Backed Z," (Jon Snow has died! Nope, he's better!) updates I get from following other KS backers, I think I'm not the exception here.

My belief, and I guess we'll see, is that seeing both projects live at the same time helps us, rather than hurts us. Vibrant. Alive. Dynamic.

I hope that answers the question as much as I can for now.

Synergy for the win!

Thanks to Phil Reed and Douglas Cole for swinging by and updating us here at theRPGsite!

Quote from: David Johansen;1078846You mean like GURPS Discworld and GURPS Mars Attacks two or three years ago and Dungeon Fantasy last year?

Except Discworld is a reprint of a book 20 years old. Mars Attacks though is indeed only about 2 years ago. Setting books for Gurps are very niche things. Much like the adaption books for Tri-Stat were.

Dungeon Fantasy I know of only through one of my players who is an avid Gurps fan. Is it actually new product or just repackaging/organizing Gurps Fantasy?

Quote from: sureshot;1078856You are in complete and absolute denial on the state of Gurps.

SJGames has stated in their own yearly report to shareholders that Gurps is not doing well that they plan and are cutting back on supporting Gurps. Their major push was DF and even that seems to them at least to be a failure. Which I don't understand they put much time and effort and money into supporting it. Only to undermine support for it. It's a really terrible way to run a business imo. This is not me talking out of my ass and making shit up this is the reality of how SJGames is approaching Gurps. Now I can't stop you from being in denial about the subject don't fucking accuse me of making shit up when it is right there on the SJGames website. Nor get angry when people call you out for trying to ignore what is in front of your face.

Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877They really didn't intersect much with other RPGs, or cross-pollinate much at all.

All I can recall was Gurps Vampire, Werewolf, Traveller & Bunnies & Burrows. And I think there was a Deadlands and something else.. Blue Planet? Does Autoduel count?

Seems like a chunk of that was in the mid 90s and then nothing.

Quote from: Omega;1079060Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

I'm not in a state of denial that GURPS. I am not agreeing with how Sureshot thinks GURPS can "improve". I've posted what I'd like, many times, and what I think would work. GURPS is sustainable at its current output has been said many times by folks from SJ Games. I can provide link after link. I don't think having a 5th edition of GURPS that is a rules light simplistic RPG that moves away from being a toolkit system makes any sense or will work. I do think the future of GURPS being Powered by GURPS in conjunction with other things, can. Sureshots evidence was that Savage Rifts had successful kickstarter like 3 years ago and no new product since. That Savage Worlds is very successful! Welll...that's great but that doesn't mean GURPS SIMPLE would be.

We do know that the Dungeon Fantasy KS was very successful and SJ Games didn't manage the project properly and they had to east the overruns. My interest in GURPS isn't in the brand it is in the game. If SJ Games decided to take GURPS in the direction that sureshot says he wants, not only do I think they would fail, but I would have zero interest in it. If a publisher makes a game I don't like, I don't sit and bitch and moan on forums about it. I just stop playing and stop buying the games.

My relationship with game companies is purely transactional. If they make something I like and I want to play, I'll spend money. If not, I won't.

Quote from: Omega;1079056Except Discworld is a reprint of a book 20 years old. Mars Attacks though is indeed only about 2 years ago. Setting books for Gurps are very niche things.

Wow!  They must have used a larger font on GURPS Discworld, it's at least three times thicker!  They might have re-used some of the text, if they could, that would depend on who held the rights and stuff.  But yeah, substantially re-worked and updated.  I wish I had one, but I sold both of the copies I brought in.  Heck, last fall I actually was desperate enough that I sold my hard copy of Martial Arts.  I'd like another nice black hardback to replace it.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078978Examples?

Because I don't understand what you don't understand. (Also SWD presentation is definitely worse than SWADE presentation. Either way you probably have to read the whole book to "get" all the rules. Which many people can't read an RPG book from cover to cover)

It has been a few years, so examples are hard to come by off the top of my head. It was the small book Explorer edition?

I just figured I'd try to get into a game at a con some day, but never have. Tunnels and Trolls was kind of the same for me. Very simple system, but until I played with a group who had some experience with it, I had trouble wrapping my head around how to really make it work well.

I mean I can read the rules and understand the meaning, but actually applying the rules in a way that makes sense can take some trial and error.

Quote from: Lurtch;1079064Sureshots evidence was that Savage Rifts had successful kickstarter like 3 years ago and no new product since.

Ah yes the distance half-a-million success of a few months ago

And this product didn't happen either

And this one from last year

Or how about how I am struggling to find a failed KS in this list regardless of first or third party many of which I bought sometime last year without ever realizing they were KS projects

PEG does actually vet people before they can release licensed products, still a ton of stuff released every year.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1079087I mean I can read the rules and understand the meaning, but actually applying the rules in a way that makes sense can take some trial and error.

I still have no idea what you are talking about.

I was the one that read the rules on a $10 whim one day and then ran the system for my friends and we have been playing ever since. So I know what it is like to go in blind, but I didn't run into any of these roadblocks you are talking about.

I think we can at least agree that carrying on as they are SJG will eventually run out of GURPS fans.  At the very least, new product and reprints would help to keep the game alive.  Format and rule changes are a bit riskier.  I think we all have a rule or two we'd change but they're not likely to be the same ones.  Personally it's strength scaling then ranged combat then the presentation of skill costs.

Quote from: Omega;1079056Except Discworld is a reprint of a book 20 years old. Mars Attacks though is indeed only about 2 years ago. Setting books for Gurps are very niche things. Much like the adaption books for Tri-Stat were.

Dungeon Fantasy I know of only through one of my players who is an avid Gurps fan. Is it actually new product or just repackaging/organizing Gurps Fantasy?

To be fair Omega before he passed Terry Pratchett did publish more material after the release of Disworld 3E for his series. So while the 4E is probably has a decent amount of reprint chances are new material such as background and update to characters was added to later novels.

Quote from: Omega;1079060Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

Quote from: Omega;1079060Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

Again Omega don't waste your time.

He is in denial about being in denial. Even though SJGames has cut back on Gurps releases he still admits that nothing is wrong and that SJGames is saying the opposite of what they said in their own shareholder reports. Apparently with link after link to prove we are wrong and we probably will never see those links. Note I a not saying Gurps is dead just that they cut back production on the and are focusing on profitable products. Downplays how well Pinnacle is doing even though unlike SJgame they are not cutting back on production for Savage Worlds. He expects Gurps to be as popular with little to no changes and maintaining the status quo. It's been shown by SJGames that it is not and they cut on producing Gurps but dammit man it's still just as popular. Is publishing a rules light, less complex of Gurps of risk most definitely. Beyond DF being popular and (fingers crossed) TFT as popular. it is still not enough imo. Unfortunately SJGames claiming that dF is not a success and banking on nostalgia for the TFT it maybe a break or make moment for Gurps. If TFT does poorly or poorly for SJGames I'm not sure what it will mean for Gurps.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1079089Ah yes the distance half-a-million success of a few months ago

And this product didn't happen either

And this one from last year

Or how about how I am struggling to find a failed KS in this list regardless of first or third party many of which I bought sometime last year without ever realizing they were KS projects

PEG does actually vet people before they can release licensed products, still a ton of stuff released every year.

Don't you know Rhedyn Pinnacle success means nothing and proves that rules light less complex does not sell. That it will be a complete failure if Gurps tries to do it. It's never been attempted but Lurth knows it will fail. He even can post link after link of Gurps still being as popular if not more than Savage Worlds. It goes completely against what SJGames has been saying to their shareholders and to use the fans but what do we know. Be prepared for Lurtch to claim that the successful kickstaters you linked to mean nothing at all and to downplay the success of Savage Worlds. I claim to be no expert yet when Pinnacle is not cutting back on publishing material for Savage Worlds and SJgames is for Gurps how can one have a discussion with a person who is in denial about the situation.

Thank you for posting the link to the third party list of successful Savage worlds kickstarters many I did not know about.