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Enough of a failure that Steve Jackson Games is doing a kickstarter to reprint it.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warehouse23/powered-by-gurps-dungeon-fantasy-monsters-2-and-ga?ref=hero_thanks

For those who don't know, the SJG Report To The Stakeholders declared the DFRPG a failure despite funding it was late and over budget.

So now, they're doing a book of monsters to see if there's enough demand to reprint the book.  On the one hand I'm thrilled, I really am, like many I had high hopes for this game and as a GURPS fan, having it declared a failure indicated that GURPS support would continue to decline.

It turns out the game has some legs.  It's a really nice little boxed set.  About twice the complexity I'd have gone with but they clearly opted to make a box that appealed to existing fans than one to appeal to new fans.  Given the fans are the ones who back kickstarter that makes some sense anyhow.

Anyhow, it's out there and who doesn't want more zany monsters like carnivorous flying squirrels?  They haven't revealed what the monsters are going to be but there's a fair bit of craziness in the core game.  Better hope those skeletons aren't druager.

I'm always frusterated with SJG and their approach to GURPS.  I understand that they know the business and have the numbers but I'd really like to see many existing books back in print, Magic, Martial Arts, High Tech, Low Tech, Bio Tech.  Sure I've got all of those, but I'm a retailer and I can't put the books on the shelf.  I'd also like to see Vehicles for 4e and a decent Bestiary.  A GURPS History book would be pretty cool too.

Oh well, if you're a GURPS Fan, the sword of Damocles is once again over our heads and it's time to pony up some more cash in hopes of new things to come.

I picked up the boxed set on the recommendation of a friend that loves GURPS. I looked through it a few times before really digging in in-depth. Now I can say that it is indispensable...for holding up the books on a shelf that I haven't quite filled yet. For gaming, I'll probably never open the box again.

I just hope it can make the $40K goal. I'm on the fence. I had hoped this would be a real bestiary, not just 22 more monsters. No idea what SJ Games is thinking. They need to stop the weird licensed properties and the endless PDF trickle, and do a new edition.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1077932I picked up the boxed set on the recommendation of a friend that loves GURPS. I looked through it a few times before really digging in in-depth. Now I can say that it is indispensable...for holding up the books on a shelf that I haven't quite filled yet. For gaming, I'll probably never open the box again.

You made my post for me. I'm glad I have the boxed set and GM screen, but I'll never play it. For what it's worth, I still prefer 3rd edition basic set, anyway. The perfect single book for endless gritty fantasy.

Why does SJG need $40k to make one book?

Quote from: David Johansen;1077929I'm always frusterated with SJG and their approach to GURPS.  I understand that they know the business and have the numbers but I'd really like to see many existing books back in print, Magic, Martial Arts, High Tech, Low Tech, Bio Tech.  Sure I've got all of those, but I'm a retailer and I can't put the books on the shelf.  I'd also like to see Vehicles for 4e and a decent Bestiary.  A GURPS History book would be pretty cool too.

The fundamental problem that it is about manpower. They have overhead and have to make sure Munchkin and the other top sellers bring in the money. At the same time they have to do new things because Munchkin is not going to last forever or at the least it wouldn't be wise on it lasting forever.

Because of the lack of manpower, GURPS languished just enough that it drifted towards catering to the existing fans. Now they resort to firing "magic" bullets occasionally to see if any will reignite GURPS enough to bump up it priority. Dungeon Fantasy was the latest. And it wasn't the magic bullet. Not a unmitigated disaster but enough of an issue that there was no reason for them to bump the priority.

But then comes along Douglas Cole and his kickstarters. The response to Douglas Cole efforts has convinced them to try again with DF Monsters 2.

I been commenting on this situation for over a decade  It great that they Douglas Cole a shot and he is making the most of it both in quality and enthusiasm. But the only thing that will permanently fix GURPS situation is to loosen up even more and allow for more 3PP in a way that doesn't suck up their time in legal. Which if you guessed it is also manpower limited. Doug is GURPS author with a sterling reputation who did well with his Dragon Heresy kickstarter and with its production values so that give him enough of an edge when it came for asking about a 3PP GURPS license.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1077947Why does SJG need $40k to make one book?

It's a dual purpose kickstarter. They're making a new product and doing a reprint of the Dungeon Fantasy boxed set. I'd have probably done it as a straight-up reprint kickstarter with new product as stretch goals, but . . . whatevs.

And who called Dungeon Fantasy a failure? It's not my bag, but it apparently did well enough that they keep churning out more expansions. Hardly seems like a failure to me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1077947Why does SJG need $40k to make one book?

Overhead and the requirements of distributions and print runs.

Quote from: Aglondir;1077938I just hope it can make the $40K goal. I'm on the fence. I had hoped this would be a real bestiary, not just 22 more monsters. No idea what SJ Games is thinking. They need to stop the weird licensed properties and the endless PDF trickle, and do a new edition.

Just another "magic" bullet that will ultimately fail. They need diversity in how GURPS is approached. They are only going to get it through an open 3PP program. The problems are all ones of presentation.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1077932I picked up the boxed set on the recommendation of a friend that loves GURPS. I looked through it a few times before really digging in in-depth. Now I can say that it is indispensable...for holding up the books on a shelf that I haven't quite filled yet. For gaming, I'll probably never open the box again.

Why that? I am not looking for a debate on the merit. My basic argument has been the presentation of GURPS. Which may or may not be a correct guess. So I am curious about the details of your conclusion.

So, I strongly agree that opening GURPS up to third party support would be great.  I've dabbled in writing a retro-clone or alternative GURPS but honestly, I don't see much point in doing so beyond the intellectual exercise.  Also, if you ask three people what they think GURPS should look like, you'll get at least three different answers.  There's a reason there's so many different D&D retro-clones.  It's a proliferation of standards issue.

I don't know, it really stuck in my craw when they declared DFRPG a failure.  The fans really stepped up to make it happen.  So, I don't know, I've got this mix of gloating, and frustration, and happiness and it's confusing.  I notice they never step up and say fourth edition was a failure.

I strongly agree with Ester that the format of fourth edition is very unfriendly to new users.  I think it's mechanically better than third and I think the books are lovely.

I just find SJG business plan confusing to say the least. Fans were asking for Gurps Vehicles 4E to be released they gave the fans Gurps Mars Attacks and Discworld. The fans made DFRPG what is and it's a failure. Full disclosure I'm not a fan of DFRPG in general. I wonder though if maybe SJG is done with Gurps and is trying to kill it off. Honestly I just do not know what to make of how they are handling Gurps.

You are assuming there is a coherent plan, rather than just the day-to-day whims of a geek with a bar fridge full of coca-cola next to his desk :)

I liked some of what 4e changed from 3e. But I haven't played any GURPS since 4e came out. I have all the GURPS books (except the last 2 or 3 that they published), and only one of their PDFs.

Quote from: estar;1077959Why that? I am not looking for a debate on the merit. My basic argument has been the presentation of GURPS. Which may or may not be a correct guess. So I am curious about the details of your conclusion.

I have a number of other fantasy games that I like better for varying reasons. I can always find players for D&D (5e), I like the world flavor of Earthdawn and WFRP (2e or 4e), and I can even go away from the usual with Conan (2d20) or Realms of Terinoth (FFG's Genesys), and if I only want "part-time fantasy" then there's the Asyle Cosm of TORG Eternity. DF doesn't really excel at any particular thing that I'm looking for in fantasy games, and that's really all it's set up to do.

To me the very concept of a Gurps Dungeon Fantasy is weird. It's like having a fantasy dungeon version of Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha. Why not just play its predecessor, The Fantasy Trip?

If you look back at GURPS1e and its example character and so on, it was plain it was set up to be the generic competitor to D&D. "Look! You can do the same stuff, but with more flexibility than character classes allow!" And it wasn't bad at that, it's only with the overly-weighty GURPS4e that it really fell on its arse.

And DF... well, they just didn't really get OSR stuff. 250 point characters? Seriously?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1077980And DF... well, they just didn't really get OSR stuff. 250 point characters? Seriously?

Not all who dungeon crawl like OSR stuff. Besides why make a product for OSR fans anyway; they already have the products they want.

Quote from: sureshot;1077968I just find SJG business plan confusing to say the least. Fans were asking for Gurps Vehicles 4E to be released they gave the fans Gurps Mars Attacks and Discworld. The fans made DFRPG what is and it's a failure. Full disclosure I'm not a fan of DFRPG in general. I wonder though if maybe SJG is done with Gurps and is trying to kill it off. Honestly I just do not know what to make of how they are handling Gurps.

According to posts from staff over on BGG. Gurps does not make money so SJG has little interest in it.

Quote from: David Johansen;1077929...It's a really nice little boxed set.  About twice the complexity I'd have gone with but they clearly opted to make a box that appealed to existing fans than one to appeal to new fans.  Given the fans are the ones who back kickstarter that makes some sense anyhow..

This is a BIG problem.

Because:

Quote from: estar;1077955The fundamental problem ... is ... GURPS languished just enough that it drifted towards catering to the existing fans. ....

When you are only catering to the hardcore fanbase, you are greatly limiting your ability to reach a wider audience.

Quote from: David Johansen;1077929.I'm always frusterated with SJG and their approach to GURPS.  I understand that they know the business and have the numbers ....

They have the numbers of what's left of the fanbase that is willing to pour over 4e and make use of it.

If they want new blood, they have to design for new blood.

And the overall trend is not for more complexity in games.

Look what has happened with 5e when they dialed back the complexity from the 3.5e era...

In fact without the disaster of 4e, I doubt 5e would have been given the latitude to go the direction that it did.

Luckily WOTC had the $$$ to pull a U-turn on the 4e disaster and take a mulligan. Which worked out great!

But if 4e was more of a logical successor to 3.x, I don't think that they would have had as much success. (Not that they wouldn't be the #1 selling RPG. But not what we are seeing with 5e now.)

Wish this were on indiegogo instead. Too bad, I'd back this if it were.

Quote from: JeremyR;1077974To me the very concept of a Gurps Dungeon Fantasy is weird. It's like having a fantasy dungeon version of Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha. Why not just play its predecessor, The Fantasy Trip?

TFT is not the same game.

The current issue with GURPS is that it presented solely as a toolkit. So in order to run a campaign you need to take the "bits" and assemble all the "stuff" you find in the three books of D&D (spells, magic items, monsters, etc). Some parts are well covered like spells, some are not like monsters.

Dungeon Fantasy RPG is GURPS with stuff and only the rules you need to run it.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1077972I have a number of other fantasy games that I like better for varying reasons. I can always find players for D&D (5e), I like the world flavor of Earthdawn and WFRP (2e or 4e), and I can even go away from the usual with Conan (2d20) or Realms of Terinoth (FFG's Genesys), and if I only want "part-time fantasy" then there's the Asyle Cosm of TORG Eternity. DF doesn't really excel at any particular thing that I'm looking for in fantasy games, and that's really all it's set up to do.

Well it is GURPS just with stuff and only the rules you need to run it. I see your point as one need have the GURPS core books to get use out of it for non D&D fantasy. And the 250 pt starting point mutes the grittiness that was the one of the hallmark of its appeal back when it was first release in the late 80s.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1077970You are assuming there is a coherent plan, rather than just the day-to-day whims of a geek with a bar fridge full of coca-cola next to his desk :)

At this point given how long they have been in the rpg business they should have a better idea of how to run their business and more importantly what to invest their money. If SJG was a new company I would give them more slack. At this point they should know with their eyes closed what is popular and what is not imo. It's the same way when Palladium Books fans make excuses for Kevin and his abysmal release schedules. You want to claim that as a company your have been in the business 30+ years, don't tell me at this point that you have no way of knowing how long it will take to write and publish a book.

Quote from: Omega;1077992According to posts from staff over on BGG. Gurps does not make money so SJG has little interest in it.

Well when the company that created the product is showing to me at least that they are not really interested in trying to make more money with said product. It's on them when their product is not doing well. Fans have been asking for years for Gurps Vehicles 4E..they instead gave them gurps Discworld and Mars Attacks. I can kind of understand the first as it's somewhat of known and popular series of novels. The second just seems like it came out of left field. Even then I could understand publishing it if their was a TV show or a reboot of the original movie. As an IP it's not that popular imo. If SJGames has little interest and the IP is not making money sell it or license it out to someone else who has an interest in it.

Quote from: David Johansen;1077929About twice the complexity I'd have gone with but they clearly opted to make a box that appealed to existing fans than one to appeal to new fans

Quote from: estar;1077955The fundamental problem ... is ... GURPS languished just enough that it drifted towards catering to the existing fans. ....

It's not just an issue with SJGames take a look at Hero Games. At least the first is publishing some Gurps material. The second is on life support and survives exclusively on 3pp. Instead of trying to reach out to new fans they insist on only catering to the old ones. Which is fine if the number of old fans is enough to make the line profitable. Both companies ignored the trends in the rpg market to less complexity. I somehow doubt we will every see a trend towards rpg complexity ever again imo. Even then ones rpg can remain complex and crunchy IF their are not other competing rules light and less complex rpgs. Unfortunately for both companies they have other companies that provide that.

It's also not helped that SJGames and Hero Games fanbase adamantly refuse to have anything to do with rules light and less complex. One company is on life support the other contemplating of reducing or cutting back on publishing product. Somehow they expect the trend to reverse itself and many fans will suddenly come out of the woodwork to embrace both rpgs..any day now..any day now. They rather the company go under or stop publishing material which helps nobody really.

I can't say one way or another whether a reprint is a good idea or not. I don't begrudge them for testing the waters, even if pushing the DF line seems... a little misguided, to me. The second Monsters book I'll be getting assuming the KS pays off.

I think SJG has made a number of missteps, but overall I'm actually pretty encouraged by the direction they're heading. Baby steps that are happening way later than they should have IMO, but still.

They made the hard choice to cut Pyramid and begin moving resources back to prime first-party content (Action 5 is a good example of what I'd love to see more of using those resources), and as Kromm's livejournal has been updating, they've been looking over a LOT of different 3rd party proposals and approved what looks to be a very decent number already, with even more currently in review. Quite a list of announced first-party content has been staged along the production pipeline, with several more announced-but-not-revealed (most of them looking to be larger projects, [non-DF, even] too).

It may not be OGL territory and SJG still comes off as extremely gunshy to me, but that they're willing to step into Kickstarters more deliberately now and contract out to 3rd party content creators gives me great hope. Douglas Cole is an obvious "flagship creator" to me in the sense that I hope other content creators might follow suit, and continue to encourage SJG to be more open with regards to experimentation with their product lines and overall GURPS licensing policies.

Anyway, I'm no business guru and I don't work in the industry. This is all just gut-feel to me. But overall, I find SJG's recent direction to be more encouraging than not.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1078016Wish this were on indiegogo instead. Too bad, I'd back this if it were.

Okay, I'll bite.  Why?

My issue with GURPS is that it's a toolkit not an RPG system. The GM has to put in a lot of effort to get the game going.

I like the idea of Dungeon Fantasy being an example build of GURPS as a system. I would prefer a cohesive book though...

Still you have the issue of players needing both DF and GURPS core to play. At least 3 books and GURPS doesn't have a D&D 3.X srd that my D&D 3.X groups found essential to run the game.

Oh and screw SJG for not providing the PDF with a physical book purchase. I don't want to buy your book twice and no one else does either.

As much as people, myself included, would like to see a one book GURPS Medium, I suspect you really need a one book fantasy point of entry.  They do have GURPS Disc World, which is indeed a one book fantasy entry.  Also there is GURPS Vorkosigian which is a one book sf point of entry.  Personally, both are a bit obscure. In my experience the overlap between people who read fantasy and science fiction and gamers isn't nearly as great as it once was.  Back in third edition they did GURPS Myth based on the video game series too.  So, I think SJG haven't been really wowed by the results of one book points of entry.  I believe a generic fantasy game in one book would be ideal for getting new people to try GURPS.  But I could be wrong.  I often am.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078061Okay, I'll bite.  Why?

I got burned by palladium's robotech campaign years ago. Their complete non-action and outright protecting palladium pissed me off. Kickstarter doesn't do enough to keep project starters honest. not saying indiegogo is any better, but hey.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078063Still you have the issue of players needing both DF and GURPS core to play.

Just thought I'd mention: Dungeon Fantasy is a standalone game, you do not need GURPS Basic Set to play.

That said, what confuses the issue is that there is also a "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy" line for regular GURPS, which of course does require GURPS Basic Set to use.

A couple points:

GURPS Vehicles is not a book that's going to bring in the masses. It's a niche product that hardcore GURPS fans of a certain type want, but (I bet that) SJG realizes that this is both a tough book to get written and an even tougher sell.

GURPS DF's existence is at least indirectly lampshaded by the fact that no sooner did this product complete than did SJG reacquire The Fantasy Trip, the product that SJG really wanted to do all along. The fact that GURPS DF continues to get Kickstarter love at all is amazing, because from my perspective SJG has been gonzo gung-ho all about reviving The Fantasy Trip and their eighties' era pocket box games. SJG is going down the nostalgia rabbit hole big time, and they are definitely diving into the deep end of the OSR pool, just in a corner not familiar to traditional D&D OSR fans.

GURPS will remain obscure and hard to sell to the current gaming crowd until or if SJG finds a way to make a 5th edition that slides back to the positional role that GURPS 3rd edition held for so long. (imo)

Quote from: sureshot;1078045At this point given how long they have been in the rpg business they should have a better idea of how to run their business and more importantly what to invest their money.

Running a (very) small business, I have learned: you don't have to be that smart, you just have to be not as dumb as most of the rest. As well, you need to be dedicated. In business as in so many other things in life, most people don't fail, they give up. In business, most people are really dumb, and most give up easily.

If you are dedicated and not quite as dumb as most of your competitors, you can make a living. Now, to be hugely successful takes something else.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078063My issue with GURPS is that it's a toolkit not an RPG system. The GM has to put in a lot of effort to get the game going.

I like the idea of Dungeon Fantasy being an example build of GURPS as a system. I would prefer a cohesive book though...

Still you have the issue of players needing both DF and GURPS core to play. At least 3 books and GURPS doesn't have a D&D 3.X srd that my D&D 3.X groups found essential to run the game.

Oh and screw SJG for not providing the PDF with a physical book purchase. I don't want to buy your book twice and no one else does either.

For the current Kickstarter:

The $20 pledge level gets you the monsters 2 book and its PDF
The $95 pledge level gets you that, plus the DF box set its PDFs

(or did you mean just buying other books from SJ Games?)

I love GURPS, but I'm not a fan of the 250 point starting level, and am not enough of a fan of the dungeon crawling genre to buy the new book or reprint. Buying a dungeon fantasy book I don't want just so they might make more GURPS stuff doesn't seem like a good idea to me either, since that GURPS stuff will probably be more dungeon fantasy. If they put out more After the End content, I'll gladly fork over the money for at at least a PDF.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1078080I got burned by palladium's robotech campaign years ago. Their complete non-action and outright protecting palladium pissed me off. Kickstarter doesn't do enough to keep project starters honest. not saying indiegogo is any better, but hey.

Makes sense to me.  If I ever get my finances to the point where I can ditch my current bank, I will.  Not because I think other banks are any better, but it's the one that pissed me off.

Quote from: sureshot;1078045Well when the company that created the product is showing to me at least that they are not really interested in trying to make more money with said product. It's on them when their product is not doing well.

At some point they started focusing only on making a profit, or at least breaking even. Apparently their margin is really small. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. Hence why they let popular games go fallow for a decade or more and only trot them out as an IP retainer. If even that. Thus the recent spate of reprints of classics.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078063My issue with GURPS is that it's a toolkit not an RPG system. The GM has to put in a lot of effort to get the game going.

The term that used to be used was a game required a "master DM" to run it. EG: a DM who could take something like Gurps and prune the tree enough to get what they want. Even the basic game is a bit overwhelming for a novice DM.

Its kind of funny that Gurps in a way requires the DM to have some experience with other systems before being able to run Gurps. Either that or be able to grasp the nuances right out the gate. Welcome to the very deep end of the pool. Some learn to swim. Some dont.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1078080I got burned by palladium's robotech campaign years ago. Their complete non-action and outright protecting palladium pissed me off. Kickstarter doesn't do enough to keep project starters honest. not saying indiegogo is any better, but hey.

They arent. A couple of years ago they allowed some shady games to get a pass as long as they got their cut. Dont know if that was a rare incident or not. But same can be said of Kickstarter. The vast majority of stuff is legit. But whoooeee the bad ones can sometimes sink to new lows.

And steer clear then of LanZanOs, an EU based crowdfunding platform. After the debacle of Heroscape 25th and their mis-handling of it even now.. Not a platform Id trust with my cash.

Just keep in mind folks, that SJ Games is one of the few surviving game companies from the early 80s that managed to keep a traditional corporate structure going with employees, salaries, offices, etc. Not many other companies outside of Paizo and Wizards can say this.

The most important aspect of this is that Steve Jackson will not crazy expand just because he has a hit on his hand. He has experienced enough near death incidents with his company that he tempers his reponse so SJ Games can survive the next downturn or even a major mistake like the drawn out fulfillment of Ogre.

Also note despite all of our complaints with GURPS, he never fully shut it down. The closest came during the crisis of the OGRE fulfillment and even then there was a trickle of PDF releases. Even with The Fantasy Trip getting attention, GURPS still has planned releases. I don't think SJ Games wants to see any of their games be not available and if they see a path forward they take it.

Doesn't mean criticism isn't warranted but to be effective it has to take in account the above. Which to me means opening GURPS (and TFT for that matter) even more to 3PP so that the RPGs get the variety of support and alternative presentation they need.

Quote from: Omega;1078158At some point they started focusing only on making a profit, or at least breaking even. Apparently their margin is really small. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. Hence why they let popular games go fallow for a decade or more and only trot them out as an IP retainer. If even that. Thus the recent spate of reprints of classics.

Not wrong with making a profit and as a company imo it should be the primary or at the very least secondary goal. I get why they went and focused on Munchkin. Yet at the same time they do the rpg equivalent of putting an rpg IP on cruise control and then wonder why the fans are not buying enough profitable they also bear the responsibility for the IP not being profitable. As well like Hero Games they also misjudged the extent that the fanbase desire crunch and complex rules. For years their was no real competition and the fans put up with the crunch and complexity. Along comes Savage worlds and Fate and it cut into their market share. I understand pleasing older fans yet Neither company  did nothing to try and reduce the complexity and crunchiness of their respective rpgs. Not rules light by any means yet somehow both companies seemed to think all it would take to get more new fans and older dissatisfied fans back to playing their rpgs was full colour and better production values. Which is always a nice touch yet it does nothing to really address the flaws of the rpg. With Fate and Savage worlds gamers were not having it and voted with their wallets.

About the complaint about Gurps and Hero system being too generic. I think that is missing the point completely. The point of a generic rpg is to allow one to play any rpg genre they want. Buying saying the Gurps core and then complaining that it's not a complete rpg like say the 5E core is on the buyer not say SJGames. Sorry that is the dumbest ever complaint about generic rpgs. "well I could have bought just the right tools for drilling and making holes in a door to attach it. I instead bought an all in one tool box and can't make heads or tails of it. It must be both the company who created the tool box and store who saold it to me fault that I can't figure it out". Do your fucking research as a buyer your expected a certain amount of responsibility and if you don't want to invest the work in building everything and anything in a rpg DON't buy a generic rpg.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1078080I got burned by palladium's robotech campaign years ago. Their complete non-action and outright protecting palladium pissed me off.

Not defending Kickstarter yet a certain amount of how incompetently the project was handled is mainly Kevin Seimbeda fault. We are talking about a guy who released the first ever Rifts videogame on a platform almost no one really wanted. While ignoring any and all suggestions to the contrary. Made worse that he also signed a contract where said Rifts game cannot be translated to other platforms. Not a fan of Kickstarter nor of those who defend Kevin actions from the Kickstarter a certain amount of blame has to be placed on the owner as well.

Admittedly, one thing I love about GURPS is the rigorous and professional standard of quality.  I can understand why they wouldn't want just anyone selling any old thing under the brand name.  One only needs to look at the d20 glut to see the alternative.  What they've said is that they don't have the man-power to do quality control on third party materials.  Douglas Cole has earned their faith and that's impressive.

Quote from: estar;1078173Just keep in mind folks, that SJ Games is one of the few surviving game companies from the early 80s that managed to keep a traditional corporate structure going with employees, salaries, offices, etc. Not many other companies outside of Paizo and Wizards can say this.

Being in the business X amount of years does not make one immune to making mistakes as a business. Look at Palladium books with their string of failures.

Quote from: estar;1078173Also note despite all of our complaints with GURPS, he never fully shut it down. The closest came during the crisis of the OGRE fulfillment and even then there was a trickle of PDF releases. Even with The Fantasy Trip getting attention, GURPS still has planned releases. I don't think SJ Games wants to see any of their games be not available and if they see a path forward they take it.

Not really much in the way of releases if you go to their main site. Sure we have smaller PDFs yet nothing to me that shows that they are really going to make an effort releasing more Gurps. That being said I do not blame them at all because if what they say is true and Gurps is not profitable. It makes no business sense to keep investing in rpg line that is losing money.

Quote from: estar;1078173Doesn't mean criticism isn't warranted but to be effective it has to take in account the above. Which to me means opening GURPS (and TFT for that matter) even more to 3PP so that the RPGs get the variety of support and alternative presentation they need.

Right now the main stumbling block to 3pp is SJGames if they are unwilling to invest more in Gurps they should open it up. The problem then is when it will happen. This is not something that needs to be rushed into. Nor should it take five years time for them to do so. They have competition that is eating into their market share. It needs to be done sooner rather than later.

Quote from: sureshot;1078176About the complaint about Gurps and Hero system being too generic. I think that is missing the point completely. The point of a generic rpg is to allow one to play any rpg genre they want. Buying saying the Gurps core and then complaining that it's not a complete rpg like say the 5E core is on the buyer not say SJGames. Sorry that is the dumbest ever complaint about generic rpgs. "well I could have bought just the right tools for drilling and making holes in a door to attach it. I instead bought an all in one tool box and can't make heads or tails of it. It must be both the company who created the tool box and store who saold it to me fault that I can't figure it out". Do your fucking research as a buyer your expected a certain amount of responsibility and if you don't want to invest the work in building everything and anything in a rpg DON't buy a generic rpg.

That applies far less to the DF boxed set that to the main GURPS line. DF is set up to be a complete game for dungeon crawling fantasy in a manner similar to D&D. In my opinion, it fails to be exceptional within that niche, and I have several games I would rather play for dungeon crawling fantasy.

Quote from: Omega;1078159The term that used to be used was a game required a "master DM" to run it. EG: a DM who could take something like Gurps and prune the tree enough to get what they want. Even the basic game is a bit overwhelming for a novice DM.

Its kind of funny that Gurps in a way requires the DM to have some experience with other systems before being able to run Gurps. Either that or be able to grasp the nuances right out the gate. Welcome to the very deep end of the pool. Some learn to swim. Some dont.

I hate GMing systems I'll never play. If my fellow players could never be convinced to run the game, then I am most certainly not going to run it.

GURPS has that problem. Also has the problem that my players just didn't like the per second combat.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1078179That applies far less to the DF boxed set that to the main GURPS line. DF is set up to be a complete game for dungeon crawling fantasy in a manner similar to D&D. In my opinion, it fails to be exceptional within that niche, and I have several games I would rather play for dungeon crawling fantasy.

I can see why they did Dungeon Fantasy as imo the fantasy rpg genre was and is still one of the more popular one played at tables. Except the market for that is saturated and D&D has that market share locked down imo.

Quote from: sureshot;1078178Being in the business X amount of years does not make one immune to making mistakes as a business. Look at Palladium books with their string of failures.

True however if look through the internet archives and the various magazine I know who I would say who has run the more professional business and who has been more stable and consistent over its lifetime.

Quote from: sureshot;1078178Not really much in the way of releases if you go to their main site. Sure we have smaller PDFs yet nothing to me that shows that they are really going to make an effort releasing more Gurps. That being said I do not blame them at all because if what they say is true and Gurps is not profitable. It makes no business sense to keep investing in rpg line that is losing money.

Again the problem is that GURPS isn't profitable it isn't as profitable by an order of magnitude.

Quote from: sureshot;1078178They have competition that is eating into their market share.

I picked this about because in the past they argued that RPG are no longer popular and board game rule the roost. While true the problem is that GURPS declined faster than its competitors and when things recovered did not rebound compared to their competitors.

Which obviously indicates something is wrong with their approach beyond the cyclical rise and fall of RPGs relatives to other types of gaming.

Quote from: sureshot;1078188I can see why they did Dungeon Fantasy as imo the fantasy rpg genre was and is still one of the more popular one played at tables. Except the market for that is saturated and D&D has that market share locked down imo.

If one tries to take it head on. GURPS has two historical strengths in regards to other fantasy games particular dungeon fantasy.

1) Extensive customization of one's characters
2) A far more gritty combat with a well designed system.

Since the advent of D20 and other RPGs like Savage World, the AGE system that have customization lite. #1 isn't the compelling advantage that it once was.

However #2 is still very much true and can be used to GURPS advantaged provided it properly showcase in a form that makes people go "Yeah I can use that in the time I have for a hobby".

D&D, Savage Worlds, AGE, all tend to be heroic to super heroic.

I think they did Dungeon Fantasy because Dungeon Fantasy is their best selling pdf line.  It also meant much of the work had been done.  I'd love to see a series of 100 page saddle stitched complete in one games like Cliffhangers, Space Opera (with the old GURPS Space Aliens), Hard Future (Transhuman Space Lite), Supers, and so forth.  I do wonder if it would be a good idea to develop a secondary combat system that runs on ten second rounds, and dumbs down...errr...simplifies...errr elaganitifizes...combat down to roll to hit, roll for damage.  There does seem to be a great deal of dislike for the one second rounds.  I love them but D&D players really struggle with 4-5 rounds to effectively fire a bow or needing to make a fast draw roll, heroic archer roll, and to hit roll to fire once per round.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078204I do wonder if it would be a good idea to develop a secondary combat system that runs on ten second rounds, and dumbs down...errr...simplifies...errr elaganitifizes...combat down to roll to hit, roll for damage.  There does seem to be a great deal of dislike for the one second rounds.  

I love them but D&D players really struggle with 4-5 rounds to effectively fire a bow or needing to make a fast draw roll, heroic archer roll, and to hit roll to fire once per round.

When this comes up I explain it like this.

In D&D (this been true since 3.X)  you can two things a round basically move and attack.

In GURPS, you can do one thing and only one thing during a round, either move or attack but not both.

Because most RPGs allow at least a move and an attack every round, when a players plays GURPS they feel something has been taken away because before they could do two things but now they can only do one thing.

Something I learned while designing the Majestic Wilderlands rules and an important reason why I opted to use OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry as a base. It easier to tell people I was using OD&D and adding X stuff from the MW rules, then it was to tell them I was using AD&D and taking away X stuff to use the MW rules.

As for making GURPS combat more approachable for begineers. There are already four "levels" already.

1) Opposed rolls
2) Basic Combat with a handful of maneuvers.
3) Basic Combat (the above) with a grid).
4) Combat with the supplements particular Martial Arts.

Damage is not quite the same but could be re-organized to work on a three tier system of complexity.

1) Damage it just straight off hit points with maybe a death rule for when go negative.
2) Damage plus a few effects like damage multipliers for weapon edge type.
3) Damage with all the options like hit location.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078204I think they did Dungeon Fantasy because Dungeon Fantasy is their best selling pdf line.  It also meant much of the work had been done.  I'd love to see a series of 100 page saddle stitched complete in one games like Cliffhangers, Space Opera (with the old GURPS Space Aliens), Hard Future (Transhuman Space Lite), Supers, and so forth.  

When I active on the SJ Games forums, I advocated for a fantasy set of rules, science fiction, and horror. That each should have the stuff of popular games in each genre (D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu). However should be done with a GURPS twist toward the gritty basically start out with 125  to 150 pt templates.

Somebody actually told me off that 125 point start you out with nothing. That they don't want to waste their time grinding their way back up. Which is totally at odds with my experience where 125 to 150 points felt like starting out at 5th level in D&D.

Quote from: estar;1078198I picked this about because in the past they argued that RPG are no longer popular and board game rule the roost. While true the problem is that GURPS declined faster than its competitors and when things recovered did not rebound compared to their competitors.

Which obviously indicates something is wrong with their approach beyond the cyclical rise and fall of RPGs relatives to other types of gaming.

I take what SJGames says and predicts with a very large gran of salt. Their market research indicated print would be completely dead in a few years and only PDF. I and others tried to convince them otherwise on their forums many years ago and their response was "trust use we have the market search to back that" Here we are in 2019 and while print format is hurting it's not completely dead. I could be wrong yet from what I'm seeing the trend will be towards PDf and similar formats. Unlike SJGames and having worked in retail and general observations of gamers. One many like print and only print. At the time they made that announcement e-readers were expensive and Apps were just starting to hit the market. Many people don't like change and adapt slowly to it. I just found it quite remarkable coincidence that SJGames shift to mostly PDF seemed to be backed up by market research at the time.

The shift from complexity and crunchiness in rpgs to less. Anyone with an active brain cell could see the trend towards it and they just marketed to older fans with little to no attempt at trying to get new or dissatisfied fans back into the fold. Hero Games is the same. If they keep the rules as is even with 3pp I just can't see it being as popular as it once was imo.

Quote from: estar;1078199If one tries to take it head on. GURPS has two historical strengths in regards to other fantasy games particular dungeon fantasy.

1) Extensive customization of one's characters
2) A far more gritty combat with a well designed system.

Since the advent of D20 and other RPGs like Savage World, the AGE system that have customization lite. #1 isn't the compelling advantage that it once was.

However #2 is still very much true and can be used to GURPS advantaged provided it properly showcase in a form that makes people go "Yeah I can use that in the time I have for a hobby".

D&D, Savage Worlds, AGE, all tend to be heroic to super heroic.

Very good post and points being made. As you said about #1 they lost that advantage and market share to Fate And Savage Worlds and to a lesser extent  D20. Number 2 your right about D&D not being gritty combat with a well designed system. It's easy enough imo to make it grittier. The combat system is not the best adequate for gamer needs. For some the choice of an adequate system vs a more complex well designed system the choice is usually the first. Another strike against Gurps and it being gritty is that many will want to use Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It is fairly complete and pretty much the standard for grim and gritty fantasy imo.

Quote from: estar;1078211In GURPS, you can do one thing and only one thing during a round, either move or attack but not both.

I think the question is: why do I have to decide second for second what my character is going to do next? Isn't that too much micromanagement?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078216I think the question is: why do I have to decide second for second what my character is going to do next? Isn't that too much micromanagement?

Nah.

Games tend to work poorly when the GM engagement far outweighs player investment. In GURPS the GM has to basically craft a game for you, the player can at least bother to care what their character does every second in combat.

Not defending Kickstarter yet a certain amount of how incompetently the project was handled is mainly Kevin Seimbeda fault. We are talking about a guy who released the first ever Rifts videogame on a platform almost no one really wanted. While ignoring any and all suggestions to the contrary. Made worse that he also signed a contract where said Rifts game cannot be translated to other platforms. Not a fan of Kickstarter nor of those who defend Kevin actions from the Kickstarter a certain amount of blame has to be placed on the owner as well.[/QUOTE]


Totally hear you, I got educated on what a jerk Siembieda was through that project. Believe me, that guy shouldn't be in business.

I just won't give kickstarter another dime for abandoning us during that fiasco.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078216I think the question is: why do I have to decide second for second what my character is going to do next? Isn't that too much micromanagement?

Depends on what that one and only one thing you can do is about. The actual time period is somewhat important as far as verisimilitude but in term of how the mechanics work it is about design.

This is very general but most everything works action wise like later edition D&D except you only do one action period per round. If it not movement you can probably do a single yard step as part of it. When I have time I will work up some examples in a new thread.

Not there are not issues. One I ran into in two decades of refereeing GURPS is when people space themselves out in their marching order. If the front of the order is more than 20 yards away from the back.  It quite possible that the fight will be over before the rear can move up to engage in melee.

But when I started playing SCA and boffer LARPS in the 90s, that what really happens.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078218Nah.

Games tend to work poorly when the GM engagement far outweighs player investment. In GURPS the GM has to basically craft a game for you,

Once you done it once, you don't have to do it again and just works. And if you get an idea for a tweak it is pretty easy to implement.

Quote from: estar;1078211As for making GURPS combat more approachable for begineers. There are already four "levels" already.

1) Opposed rolls
2) Basic Combat with a handful of maneuvers.
3) Basic Combat (the above) with a grid).
4) Combat with the supplements particular Martial Arts.

You explain this better than the game authours. This, really, is the core of the problem.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1078242You explain this better than the game authours. This, really, is the core of the problem.

Thanks, in the years I been refereeing GURPS I have come up with notes and cheat sheets like the below.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3234[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3235[/ATTACH]

Quote from: estar;1078212When I active on the SJ Games forums, I advocated for a fantasy set of rules, science fiction, and horror. That each should have the stuff of popular games in each genre (D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu). However should be done with a GURPS twist toward the gritty basically start out with 125  to 150 pt templates.

Yes, I quite agree. And maybe Modern/Guns. They should have done those as their first "Powered By GURPS" lines (stand-alone lines that don't need the Basic Set and leave out stuff not needed to play the genre).

Instead they did these lines (http://www.sjgames.com/poweredbygurps/), and the Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

Quote from: estar;1078212Somebody actually told me off that 125 point start you out with nothing. That they don't want to waste their time grinding their way back up. Which is totally at odds with my experience where 125 to 150 points felt like starting out at 5th level in D&D.

That somebody clearly had a limited skewed experience, and/or superhero/cinematic-type expectations.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078216I think the question is: why do I have to decide second for second what my character is going to do next? Isn't that too much micromanagement?

No if you want to have a say about what your character does when attacked in a certain way, etc. It creates a fun game about life & death actions with actual well-developed mechanics that make sense and are logical and in proportion and that make the other decisions you have made in play have relevant effects.

I'm still trying to decide whether to do a retailer level pledge.  With the Campaigns book being in short supply, I'm tempted to put the money towards a direct order.  I set up to do direct orders from SJG a couple years ago and then ran into some cash problems that took me a couple years to sort out.  The problem is that the shipping rates make selling the books at a profit impossible and the books people want the most are only available from Amazon print on demand.  I guess I should see what Amazon costs for shipping.  $300 on a $500 order is terrible.

Let me tell you something about .pdfs, the only reason buy them is to support a company and a game they love.  People have the illegal copies.  People get them quite easily.  Yes, it's theft, but people don't care.  I care, but I'm an idiot who wants to support a company that makes it hard for me to sell and promote their products.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078216I think the question is: why do I have to decide second for second what my character is going to do next? Isn't that too much micromanagement?

Not at all! In fact, it is quite refreshing compared to some other systems:

• There are full, standard, and move actions. You can make one full or (one standard and one move) per round, but you can swap a standard for a move.
• There are full, standard, move, and swift actions. As above, but you can swap moves for swifts.
• There are major actions and minor actions. You can make one major or one minor per round, or you can swap your major for two minor (meaning you get 3 minor per round.)
• There are attack actions and move actions. You can move and attack, but not attack and move.

All of those seem to me to require more micromanagement than Gurps, which is dead simple: Do one thing, and that's it. There are exceptions: There is a "move and attack" maneuver and a double attack maneuver (and I would not doubt there are more beyond the books I own.)

I do have complaints about Gurps, but one-second rounds are not one of them. It's probably the reloading times that turn a lot of people off.

Well, I should have added that I have played in GURPS - GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Cyberpunk and a GURPS Bab 5 campaign. For me, personally, the 1 second rounds were too much stop-and-go and the whole scene never flows like in systems with longer rounds - that's why 3 second rounds is kinda the minimum for me.

That said, I like GURPS (being a simulationist and all). I just find this aspect of the game rules not optimal.

[EDIT: On the other hand, I am glad that systems with 1 second rounds exist, so that one can explore this kind of play as well.]

Quote from: estar;1078173Just keep in mind folks, that SJ Games is one of the few surviving game companies from the early 80s that managed to keep a traditional corporate structure going with employees, salaries, offices, etc. Not many other companies outside of Paizo and Wizards can say this.

Thought FFG ran that way too?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078180I hate GMing systems I'll never play. If my fellow players could never be convinced to run the game, then I am most certainly not going to run it.

GURPS has that problem. Also has the problem that my players just didn't like the per second combat.

Gurps is fairly popular locally for some reason and players occasionally ask me to DM it. But after seeing how the company keeps acting my urge to keeps getting knocked down.

Quote from: estar;1078240Once you done it once, you don't have to do it again and just works. And if you get an idea for a tweak it is pretty easy to implement.

Very much this. For the DM all the work is front loaded and likely not needed again after. Much akin to how character generation was in AD&D. The bulk of the work was frontloaded and you did not have to to that again for that character. Same with Gurps. You do all the tinkering and when you are done you have something that can run on its own pretty much. Depending on how much work you put into it at the start.

Quote from: Omega;1078334Thought FFG ran that way too?

Sure but they are not as old as SJ Games.

Quote from: Aglondir;1078303I do have complaints about Gurps, but one-second rounds are not one of them. It's probably the reloading times that turn a lot of people off.

I find the Speed / Range table is a bigger issue.  The large penalties at short ranges are off putting to people.  In GURPS aiming really matters.  It makes more sense when you look at play on a tactical grid but even then, with one yard hexes and 28mm figures the ranges look better but when you actually put in figures that are to scale they look really small.

I much preferred the first edition missile fire rules.  Fourth edition rolled back on third edition shooting where you still got a -4 for snap shots..

One thing I've always wished they'd done differently in fourth edition is the inclusion of the iconic characters and Infinite Worlds setting.  That could have been sixteen more pages of Templates, Spells, Animals, Vehicles.  There's even some advantages, disadvantages, enhancements, and limitations from Powers that could have been in the core book.  I know the ship has sailed on that but Infinite Worlds got a book early on and it would have been good for the core books to be more complete in these days when everything is out of print.

Quote from: Omega;1078334Thought FFG ran that way too?

Well, even if their business is traditional at heart, it has to follow the narrative... ;)

GURPS is a great game and a LOT simpler than people paint it. Certainly simply than PF, for example.

However, still TOO COMPLEX for me, personally, for one main reason: the absurd number of skills and rules concerning them, which would be very easy to fix.

DF could ahve fizxed it, but they choose to keep things mostly as they are.

Huge missed opportunity IMO.

OTOH... a "fixed" version of GURPS would look a lot like improved D&D.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078328Well, I should have added that I have played in GURPS - GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Cyberpunk and a GURPS Bab 5 campaign. For me, personally, the 1 second rounds were too much stop-and-go and the whole scene never flows like in systems with longer rounds - that's why 3 second rounds is kinda the minimum for me.

Yep, the 1 second rounds made our games look more like a world of statues than any recognizable action scene we wanted to depict.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078328Well, I should have added that I have played in GURPS - GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Cyberpunk and a GURPS Bab 5 campaign. For me, personally, the 1 second rounds were too much stop-and-go and the whole scene never flows like in systems with longer rounds - that's why 3 second rounds is kinda the minimum for me.

That said, I like GURPS (being a simulationist and all). I just find this aspect of the game rules not optimal.

[EDIT: On the other hand, I am glad that systems with 1 second rounds exist, so that one can explore this kind of play as well.]

Three second rounds are great. I use them in my homebrew system, which has a simplified 3.x action economy:

• Full
• Move or Attack
• Attack or Move
• Move and Move

I know what you mean about Flow. Gurps can result in paralysis if the players "want to play chess" but that's true of any system. With players who are in tune with the 1-second concept, it can make for some very tense and exciting combats. I'm intrigued by it now, but a year from now I may have moved on to something else.  So many good games to try.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078352I find the Speed / Range table is a bigger issue.  The large penalties at short ranges are off putting to people.  In GURPS aiming really matters.  It makes more sense when you look at play on a tactical grid but even then, with one yard hexes and 28mm figures the ranges look better but when you actually put in figures that are to scale they look really small.

Yeah, one of our players had the same problem with Hero System. Players seem to have preconceived notions about range and reloading times. Maybe it's from movies, or maybe it's from 3.5/PF.

What I mean is this:
Let's say there's a melee fight between the party and a bunch of orcs that takes 20 seconds. That's 4 rounds in a 5-second system. After the fight is done, oftentimes a "movie of events" briefly plays before everyone's mind's eye, piecing together the action, so-to speak. I have found this much harder if I have to parse 20 1-second rounds. Maybe it's just me but for me it flows less smoothly. And that's not just afterwards. Movie of events sometimes happens in fights and you extend that movie at snail's pace each round with 1-second rounds.

Quote from: sureshot;1078176Not wrong with making a profit and as a company imo it should be the primary or at the very least secondary goal. I get why they went and focused on Munchkin. Yet at the same time they do the rpg equivalent of putting an rpg IP on cruise control and then wonder why the fans are not buying enough profitable they also bear the responsibility for the IP not being profitable. As well like Hero Games they also misjudged the extent that the fanbase desire crunch and complex rules. For years their was no real competition and the fans put up with the crunch and complexity. Along comes Savage worlds and Fate and it cut into their market share. I understand pleasing older fans yet Neither company  did nothing to try and reduce the complexity and crunchiness of their respective rpgs. Not rules light by any means yet somehow both companies seemed to think all it would take to get more new fans and older dissatisfied fans back to playing their rpgs was full colour and better production values. Which is always a nice touch yet it does nothing to really address the flaws of the rpg. With Fate and Savage worlds gamers were not having it and voted with their wallets.

About the complaint about Gurps and Hero system being too generic. I think that is missing the point completely. The point of a generic rpg is to allow one to play any rpg genre they want. Buying saying the Gurps core and then complaining that it's not a complete rpg like say the 5E core is on the buyer not say SJGames. Sorry that is the dumbest ever complaint about generic rpgs. "well I could have bought just the right tools for drilling and making holes in a door to attach it. I instead bought an all in one tool box and can't make heads or tails of it. It must be both the company who created the tool box and store who saold it to me fault that I can't figure it out". Do your fucking research as a buyer your expected a certain amount of responsibility and if you don't want to invest the work in building everything and anything in a rpg DON't buy a generic rpg.



Not defending Kickstarter yet a certain amount of how incompetently the project was handled is mainly Kevin Seimbeda fault. We are talking about a guy who released the first ever Rifts videogame on a platform almost no one really wanted. While ignoring any and all suggestions to the contrary. Made worse that he also signed a contract where said Rifts game cannot be translated to other platforms. Not a fan of Kickstarter nor of those who defend Kevin actions from the Kickstarter a certain amount of blame has to be placed on the owner as well.

I worked for Backbone Entertainment. You are making shit up. Kevin didn't put that in any contract. Nokia did because they fucking paid for the game!

I work in the video game industry. I know you don't know anything but here is a clue: If Palladium could license Rifts for a video game they would. Video games are very, very expensive, and the Rifts brand has no real meaning anymore. If Palladium wanted to sell the brand they would find people willing to buy it.

Here if something people that post on forums like this, and I'm guilty of it, don't get around to: There is nothing SJ Games can do to make GURPS a viable business anymore. Nothing. It doesn't matter what product they release. It is a niche in an extremely niche hobby. The RPG business isn't healthy. But, Lurtch! I hear you say, look at how well 5E is selling! Look at all of these Kickstarters!

The hobby does about $55 million in revenue annually. D&D accounts fore more than 90% of that spend. Every other product from every other company is fighting a few million bucks in actual revenue. If we go back to the 80's and to the mid 90's when the hobby was thriving, GURPS was successful as a business. Do you guys not remember that there was a time in the early to mid 90's that White Wolf, Palladium, SJ Games, and others all had viable business publishing RPGs and that these companies would sell hundreds of thousands of copies of the big books?

SJ Games has like 50 employees. There is a thing called opportunity cost. GURPS has had about one supplement a month published, for years, via PDF. They went with Dungeon Fantasy because fantasy gaming makes up almost every dollar spent in the hobby. They went for the big market. They made mistakes and delays that caused them not to be able to sell the box at the big summer cons a couple years ago. But, the hobby isn't healthy. It isn't.

You know how I know it isn't healthy? Because WoTC is trying to move out of the hobby as fast as they fucking can. They are spending a lot of money sponsoring these silly streaming programs because they want to get into the business of D&D being things with the D&D logo on it and not actually books. There is a big bubble around the streaming platforms and eSports and it's going to burst in the next few years. Activision slashed their eSports department because the RoI isn't there. WoTC is spending a lot of money trying to get into the eSports area because they are worried that the current teenagers aren't going to play Magic or D&D if it isn't streamed. We will see if they are right.

WoTC would rather sell toys, pre faded t-shirts at target, have their logo show up in front of a movie, tv shows, and anything and everything but be in the business of publishing RPGs. The hobby works as a business for garage publishers. It really doesn't work for anybody else that isn't working for WoTC.  That's why GURPS is failing. The 5E boom isn't spreading out to other publishers like booms in the past have.

If I worked for SJ Games I'd hug my audience tightly and do anything and everything I could to make them happy. I'd rather have 10,000 people that are willing to up their annual spend.

Well, I think the standing of D&D is not healthy for our hobby at all. Our hobby would be much healthier if it had 2 other household names, say, CoC and Apocalypse World - for 2 different genres and very different playstyles. I think other companies are benefitting less because this time around, D&D has brought in a substantial chunk of lifestyle fans who want to feel as nerdy as the guys in Big Bang Theory or Stranger Things. Playing other games doesn't add to their image, apparently. These people of course benefit from the watering down of fantasy role-playing by such things as removing circumstantial modifiers and replacing them with Advantage/Disadvantage.
That being said, I don't wish ill on WOTC and D&D. Instead, I wish the market would grow and none of it would go to either.

And while I agree with most of what you say, I have to take note of Chris Birch and the success story that is Modiphius (founded in 2012!). The difference between Modiphius and many other, less successful publishers from my vantage point is that it is run by a clever guy who understands business.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078420Here if something people that post on forums like this, and I'm guilty of it, don't get around to: There is nothing SJ Games can do to make GURPS a viable business anymore.

Fortunately for the GURPS game, Steve Jackson Games has a single owner to answer to: Steve Jackson.

And it helps that he is a gamer and wants to support GURPS.

It's also great that Phil gets out and talks to the fans.  We might not always agree with him but he's good enough to get out and do it.

And, as someone who's looked at and worked on doing a fan clone or a close alternative a few times I will tell you one thing about GURPS Fans.  Every last one has their own vision of what GURPS is, what it should be, how SJG should be supporting it, what would bring in new customers, and what's missing and needing to be done.  As a result I don't think GURPS could ever have a Cephus Engine or OGL.  And the OGL has certainly shown us the results of a proliferation of standards.  When I started writing Dark Passages there were three retro-clones: Castles and Crusades, OSRIC, and that really nice 1.5 that violated all kinds of IP, by the time I was done there were at least two dozen.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078418I worked for Backbone Entertainment. Kevin didn't put that in any contract. Nokia did because they fucking paid for the game!

Which was still a mistake on Kevin part. You don't sign a contract for a video game where the company who made it is the only one with access to the video game. It does not hide the fact that it was on a platform almost no one wanted. From what I read on the forums from those who work at PB. Your company was accepted not because it was the platform the fans wanted. You got the contract because your the first ones who approached PB to make a video game. t Which in hindsight PB should have never done because they have a video game which is not going anywhere because the company it was produced under made sure it only worked for the equally dead taco shaped video game system. Either way PB made a huge mistake as a company. One does not simply publish a video game simply because XYZ approached them first to do so.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078418I work in the video game industry. If Palladium could license Rifts for a video game they would. Video games are very, very expensive, and the Rifts brand has no real meaning anymore. If Palladium wanted to sell the brand they would find people willing to buy it.

I'm sure they were approached to make a video game for the company. It's a kitchen sink setting where anything and everything can appear. It has robots, power armor and anything and else in between. Pure speculation on my part I would not be surprised if Kevin asked or wants to much to make his IP into a video game. As well from being on their forums fro a long time they expect interested parties go knocking at their door. Which is probably never going to happen as they are no longer as popular as they once were. The person in charge of marketing their IP should be out and about knocking on other companies. Yes it is expensive given the absolute incompetence with the Rifts board game and Robotech minis why would anyone want to work with PB on anything at this point.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078420There is nothing SJ Games can do to make GURPS a viable business anymore.

Now your talking out of your ass. SJGames and Hero Games could have tried to do more than market to just existing fans. The market trend or at least with fans is for less complexity and crunchiness. Both companies with the latest edition kept both in a market where enough fans are simply not interested in both anymore. At least not enough to spend money on it and voted against it with their wallets. Yes it is a risk and it would alienate older fans either way it seems the older fanbase is not large enough in number to make SJG and HG profitable. Now if rules light less complex rpgs just hit the market they have been around for years. Both companies went "fuck it were keeping everything in the rules mostly as is, changing little, and hope better production values sells our product". It fell flat with new and older dissatisfied fans. At least SJGames core books are a reasonable size. Hero Games looked to have learned NOTHING at all and came out with not one large core book but two.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078420WoTC would rather sell toys, pre faded t-shirts at target, have their logo show up in front of a movie, tv shows, and anything and everything but be in the business of publishing RPGs. The hobby works as a business for garage publishers. It really doesn't work for anybody else that isn't working for WoTC.  That's why GURPS is failing. The 5E boom isn't spreading out to other publishers like booms in the past have.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078420I don't think that is a sign of the end times for rpgs. Simply Wotc wanting to diversfy the product it publishes and carries. Even Palladium Books who is not as profitable as Wotc sells mugs, shirts and non-rpg items and they keep doing so because I'm assuming they sell. Now if they stop publishing rpg products completely then it would not be good for D&D or the hobby in general imo. I would do the same thing if I can market and sell it and it is profitable it gets sold.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078420WoTC would rather sell toys, pre faded t-shirts at target, have their logo show up in front of a movie, tv shows, and anything and everything but be in the business of publishing RPGs. The hobby works as a business for garage publishers. It really doesn't work for anybody else that isn't working for WoTC.  That's why GURPS is failing. The 5E boom isn't spreading out to other publishers like booms in the past have.

If the non-rpg items makes the money why not. I'm not the market for it yet why should they not tap into and sell non-rpg products especially if people want them. I no longer lay Rifts yet would not complain if I was gifted a Rifts Mug for my birthday or Christmas. To me anyway it's smart business and not putting all ones eggs in one basket. I get your point about the 5E boom and other publishers. It was the same with 3E was released. If their would have been no OGL those same publishers would not have benefited from 3E success. By virtues of many of those publishers rpgs not being as popular. At least with the OGL it gave them a chance to get a piece of the pie.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078420If I worked for SJ Games I'd hug my audience tightly and do anything and everything I could to make them happy. I'd rather have 10,000 people that are willing to up their annual spend.

An rpg company needs to thrive not merely survive imo. SJGames made the old fans happy yet even they seem no longer be enough to make Gurps popular. So the choice is to risk a new edition or cut back on publishing Gurps and it seems they are going for the second option. I can't blame them as a properly run company does not keep throwing money at a product that does not make them money.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078451It's also great that Phil gets out and talks to the fans.  We might not always agree with him but he's good enough to get out and do it.

Thank you. If there were more time, we would absolutely be talking more with everyone. Unfortunately, the business needs a lot of attention and we sometimes can't get to every discussion we would like to.

Quote from: Itachi;1078374Yep, the 1 second rounds made our games look more like a world of statues than any recognizable action scene we wanted to depict.

You do realize that in the d20 RPGs that the default move is 30 feet which is about six square and in GURPS the default move is 5 yards or 5 hexes. There is a difference just not as dramatic as folks are making it out to be.

The biggest issue is getting used to being doing one thing and one only only during your turn. Otherwise it is not glacial.

Quote from: philreed;1078463Thank you. If there were more time, we would absolutely be talking more with everyone. Unfortunately, the business needs a lot of attention and we sometimes can't get to every discussion we would like to.

Appreciate you taking the time to show up and chat.

Quote from: sureshot;1078452Which was still a mistake on Kevin part. You don't sign a contract for a video game where the company who made it is the only one with access to the video game. It does not hide the fact that it was on a platform almost no one wanted. From what I read on the forums from those who work at PB. Your company was accepted not because it was the platform the fans wanted. You got the contract because your the first ones who approached PB to make a video game. t Which in hindsight PB should have never done because they have a video game which is not going anywhere because the company it was produced under made sure it only worked for the equally dead taco shaped video game system. Either way PB made a huge mistake as a company. One does not simply publish a video game simply because XYZ approached them first to do so.



I'm sure they were approached to make a video game for the company. It's a kitchen sink setting where anything and everything can appear. It has robots, power armor and anything and else in between. Pure speculation on my part I would not be surprised if Kevin asked or wants to much to make his IP into a video game. As well from being on their forums fro a long time they expect interested parties go knocking at their door. Which is probably never going to happen as they are no longer as popular as they once were. The person in charge of marketing their IP should be out and about knocking on other companies. Yes it is expensive given the absolute incompetence with the Rifts board game and Robotech minis why would anyone want to work with PB on anything at this point.

First, we never had a license. Nokia did. They spent millions of dollars developing the game and they did it because they spent tens of millions on the NGage project. Nokia was a huge fucking deal at the time. We were a work for hire house. We just did contract work for other companies. It had nothing to do with us.

The average cost of a console game that is a big property can be north of a hundred million dollars. That is more than all of the revenue of the RPGs published. Nobody knows who the fuck Palladium is except guys over 40. The reason Rifts isn't in damd is because the RPG hobby isn't healthy. The RPG industry is one company. 25 years ago it was in much better shape.

Robotech KS or Kevin being a weirdo have nothing to do with it. Licensed game development is pretty much an iPhone game thing. The publishers want to own their IP. Unless you're Star Wars the publishers would rather create an IP they own than license something from somebody else

Sureshot,

The market is for D&D. If SJ Games launched a "rules lite" 5E people would be unhappy. Do you post on the SJ Games forums? It has more posters than this forum does.

Quote from: philreed;1078463Thank you. If there were more time, we would absolutely be talking more with everyone. Unfortunately, the business needs a lot of attention and we sometimes can't get to every discussion we would like to.

Yeah thanks for posting. I'm glad you're just not on TBP. Any chance we will ever get a KS for more cardboard hero/monsters? Those are system agnostic and I think could be a big hit with gamers from all walks.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078487Sureshot,

The market is for D&D. If SJ Games launched a "rules lite" 5E people would be unhappy. Do you post on the SJ Games forums? It has more posters than this forum does.

It may have more fans true yet are those fans fans just lurking or buying more Gurps product. As it stands and according to SJGames Gurps at this time for them is less profitable. Are they going to end the line no. Is their going to be less of focus on it probably.  If a rules lite version of Gurps will flop as you suggest then what is your fix. The status quo is not doing much to help SJgames. It's the same old chestnut with Gurps and Hero System fans. Don't change anything at all because it might makes us unhappy yet not providing any solutions to the crisis at hand that both companies are facing. Yet somehow clicking their ruby red D20s together going " I wish I wish more people would play Gurps/Hero sysyetm" .

Quote from: philreed;1078463Thank you. If there were more time, we would absolutely be talking more with everyone. Unfortunately, the business needs a lot of attention and we sometimes can't get to every discussion we would like to.

Welcome to the site!.

A great as GURPS Lite is, for GURPS to be any lighter, the calculations for Basic Speed, Parry, Penetration, and Injury would all have to change.  Multiplication, Division, and Fractional values oh my, imagine the horror.  You'd probably have to scrap the rules for critical hits and critical failure too as they're sensitive to ratings.  You'd have to break down the stats to have the same values.  Skills at least would work with just a slightly different notation.  Stat +/- n rather than difficulties.  Cost 1, 2, 4, 8 12, 16.  The table just breaks people's minds.  I don't understand why but admittedly it isn't the simplest way to present the information.  People are afraid of tables, I'm a Rolemaster fan, so I don't get that fear at all, but I've observed it often enough to know it exists.

The thing is that there already is GURPS Ultralight but at a point things stop being GURPS and become say JAGS, CORPS, EABA, or any number of other close relatives.  I do think simpler points of entry would help but GURPS has a certain reputation that's hard to live down.  I do think that most licenses turn away at least as may people as they draw in, I expect I've said that many times before.  The reality is that the rpg market is supersaturated.  Everyone's written a game, writing a game, or thinking about writing a game.   It's why I opened a store instead of publishing my own work.  It's why I tend to get behind existing systems I like.  (much as the designers and publishers dread it)

It'd be nice if Transhuman Space or WWII had taken off better or Hellboy, Disc World, Myth, Vorkosigian, Prime Directive or any other in one book variants I might have missed.  It'd be nice if we could have a nice GURPS Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, or some other massive hit franchise but obviously it's out of reach at this point of time.  Personally I've never understood the appeal of being rigidly locked into a setting like that but again, I've seen the market power of it up close and personal.  People don't want something like Warhammer 40000, they want Warhammer 40000.

I mean it's all well and good to say, we need to create a massively popular hit setting but if people could just do that everyone would be doing it.  Throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks is expensive and time consuming and if history is any indicator it's usually the one the creator was less fond of and didn't want to get stuck doing for the rest of their life.

Quote from: sureshot;1078453Both companies went "fuck it were keeping everything in the rules mostly as is, changing little, and hope better production values sells our product". It fell flat with new and older dissatisfied fans. At least SJGames core books are a reasonable size. Hero Games looked to have learned NOTHING at all and came out with not one large core book but two.

Champions Complete solves the "phone book" problem. $20 and 240 pages.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/107799/Champions-Complete

Quote from: sureshot;1078491It may have more fans true yet are those fans fans just lurking or buying more Gurps product. ... .

Gurps doesn't need it's current fans. They aren't paying the bills by SJG own admission.

 It needs new ones who will buy product.

marketing to just existing fans is what has led them and Hero games on their current RPG death spiral...

Quote from: sureshot;1078453... SJGames and Hero Games could have tried to do more than market to just existing fans. The market trend or at least with fans is for less complexity and crunchiness. Both companies with the latest edition kept both in a market where enough fans are simply not interested in both anymore. At least not enough to spend money on it and voted against it with their wallets. Yes it is a risk and it would alienate older fans either way it seems...

And as sureshot points out - it's not like the risk will put them in a worse position, because:

 

Quote from: sureshot;1078453.the older fanbase is not large enough in number to make SJG and HG profitable...

Sometimes it is hard to remember that your hardcore fanbase is not necessarily your friend...

Quote from: Lurtch;1078420...SJGames made the old fans happy yet even they seem no longer be enough to make Gurps popular. So the choice is to risk a new edition or cut back on publishing Gurps and it seems they are going for the second option. I can't blame them as a properly run company does not keep throwing money at a product that does not make them money.

I can't blame them either.

I just don't think they realize that catering to their hardcore fanbase is what has gotten them to this point.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078505A great as GURPS Lite is, for GURPS to be any lighter, the calculations for Basic Speed, Parry, Penetration, and Injury would all have to change.  ...

So?

Quote from: David Johansen;1078505The thing is that there already is GURPS Ultralight but at a point things stop being GURPS ...

No.

If it says GURPS on the side of the tin by SJG then it is still GURPS.

Many years ago on the big purple a poster did a long thread on how he would simplify the Hero system to make it more accessible. Lots of good ideas of streamlining and cutting out a lot of things that would speed chargen, and make combat run faster.

And he got piled on by many who said "what's the point!? It's no longer "HERO". That would ruin it!"

As it turned out. Hero staying good old Hero was enough to kill off The Hero system.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078505I mean it's all well and good to say, we need to create a massively popular hit setting but if people could just do that everyone would be doing it.  

Yes, if it was easy everyone would have done it.

But it is rather surprising how few actually try...

(maybe a thought worth its own thread...)

Quote from: David Johansen;1078505Throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks is expensive and time consuming and if history is any indicator it's usually the one the creator was less fond of and didn't want to get stuck doing for the rest of their life.

Yes it does take a special kind of drive. And good RPG writing is hard. Maybe SJG just doesn't have it in them anymore.

I Can't blame them.

.

Hence TFT

Quote from: sureshot;1078491The status quo is not doing much to help SJgames. It's the same old chestnut with Gurps and Hero System fans. Don't change anything at all because it might makes us unhappy yet not providing any solutions to the crisis at hand that both companies are facing. Yet somehow clicking their ruby red D20s together going " I wish I wish more people would play Gurps/Hero sysyetm" .

Actually they click ruby red 3d6's, but other than that, you are not wrong.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078515Many years ago on the big purple a poster did a long thread on how he would simplify the Hero system to make it more accessible. Lots of good ideas of streamlining and cutting out a lot of things that would speed chargen, and make combat run faster.

And he got piled on by many who said "what's the point!? It's no longer "HERO". That would ruin it!"

As it turned out. Hero staying good old Hero was enough to kill off The Hero system.

.

Was that "Streamlining Hero" circa 2004?

You guys are all suggesting "magic bullets" and making the same mistake SJ Games made. That this one project or this one change in vision is going to fix GURPS. What needed is a multitude of efforts each doing their own thing with GURPS, within reason. Cutting in SJ Games a portion monetarily of course but pursuing their own creative vision as how to present things and what kind of content to write.

Nobody know what will work unless it is tried. If you are going to push anything then push to let you or something who is interested take a crack at it. And keep in mind this will in addition to whatever SJ Games decides to release for GURPS.

Unlike Hero System SJ Games has the infrastructure and know how to do this digitally at least in the form of Warehouse 23.

Quote from: sureshot;1078491It may have more fans true yet are those fans fans just lurking or buying more Gurps product. As it stands and according to SJGames Gurps at this time for them is less profitable. Are they going to end the line no. Is their going to be less of focus on it probably.  If a rules lite version of Gurps will flop as you suggest then what is your fix. The status quo is not doing much to help SJgames. It's the same old chestnut with Gurps and Hero System fans. Don't change anything at all because it might makes us unhappy yet not providing any solutions to the crisis at hand that both companies are facing. Yet somehow clicking their ruby red D20s together going " I wish I wish more people would play Gurps/Hero sysyetm" .

A third party publishers program. Open the system up to the market and let folks that don't need to support an office, support staff, finance, a warehouse, etc have a crack at it.

Quote from: estar;1078522You guys are all suggesting "magic bullets" and making the same mistake SJ Games made. That this one project or this one change in vision is going to fix GURPS. What needed is a multitude of efforts each doing their own thing with GURPS, within reason. Cutting in SJ Games a portion monetarily of course but pursuing their own creative vision as how to present things and what kind of content to write.

Nobody know what will work unless it is tried. If you are going to push anything then push to let you or something who is interested take a crack at it. And keep in mind this will in addition to whatever SJ Games decides to release for GURPS.

Unlike Hero System SJ Games has the infrastructure and know how to do this digitally at least in the form of Warehouse 23.

I think everyone wants the third party publishers program like you do. It doesn't replace SJ content but it opens up the market and we don't know what folks will create that could hit. The GURPS engine is great. Let's see what people can do.

Quote from: estar;1078343Sure but they are not as old as SJ Games.

How is the age of the company relevant to your statement? It is not. There are publishers, some relatively new, that run like any other business with paid employees, offices and all that. Though FFG has been around something like 24 years now. SJG has been around I believe close to 39. And if FFG is disqualified then so is WOTC as they are only 5 years older than FFG.

Quote from: Omega;1078528How is the age of the company relevant to your statement? It is not. There are publishers, some relatively new, that run like any other business with paid employees, offices and all that. Though FFG has been around something like 24 years now. SJG has been around I believe close to 39. And if FFG is disqualified then so is WOTC as they are only 5 years older than FFG.

Because my statement was about SJ Games being one of the only survivors from the early 80s that had a traditional employee -company setup. Of course they are not the only gaming company like that today but they are one of the oldest if not the oldest that are still intact. There are some other late 70s/early 80s survivors but most at one point or another imploded to a few principals and a bunch of freelancers like Chaosium. That never happened to SJ Games. They had a few scares but managed to overcome them.

Which in my opinion is an indication that for the most part they, SJ and his team know what they are doing. However nobody perfect and the problems with GURPS is one area where things are not perfect. If nothing new is done, I am sure that as long as Steve Jackson in charge that we will see a slooow but steady trickle of PDFs and once in a blue moon a physical product supporting GURPS. And they would be doing it at a small profit.

Whereas, with most other game companies what would happen is the company would crater and the entire line would be out of print. Or more likely implode back to the founders with a few freelancers putting out a trickle of product.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078527I think everyone wants the third party publishers program like you do. It doesn't replace SJ content but it opens up the market and we don't know what folks will create that could hit. The GURPS engine is great. Let's see what people can do.

Well the trick is come up with something that is effective and that makes Steve Jackson comfortable. As Phil said he is the guy in charge.

The main point I would emphasive is that there isn't going to be a 3PP competitor that overtake SJ Games in GURPS. Even if GURPS is released under the OGL, Steve Jackson official stamp of approval is always going to count more than any 3PP no matter how good they are.

The whole Pathfinder D&D 4th edition thing is a special case and a result of Wizards shooting themselves several times in several different ways. It going to be more like Chaosium and Mongoose Runequest.

The moment Chaosium said "Hey we are back with Runequest' It sucked the oxygen out of the 3PP market except for Design Mechanism. Anyway with Warehouse 23, and now the experience working with Gaming Ballistic, SJ Games has options short of releasing open content.

Well, you're free to publish all the free, non IP breaking GURPS support you want as long as it's free.  And there is a fair bit of that.

Personally, I wish I had the time to do free stuff but the equation is pretty simple, good stuff takes time and money so it's hard to do good stuff for free.

As I've said, I think there's space for a Cephus Engine style, clone.  The real barrier is that the fans would never be able to agree on what that should look like and it would just fragment.  The most valuable thing GURPS has to offer is a functional, unified standard.  As is often the case, people are willing to accept the limitations of the existing standard but unable to accept them in the context of a new standard.

The OGL deliberately put D&D into the wild, and let it go.  I'm pretty sure Steve Jackson will never go for that.  Implementing a quality control and compliance system would simply cost more than SJG could ever make from running one.  Or that's basically the argument they've put forward in the past.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078533As I've said, I think there's space for a Cephus Engine style, clone.  The real barrier is that the fans would never be able to agree on what that should look like and it would just fragment.  

Much like D&D.

And yet...

Quote from: Lurtch;1078487Sureshot,

The market is for D&D. If SJ Games launched a "rules lite" 5E people would be unhappy. Do you post on the SJ Games forums? It has more posters than this forum does.

The question is: is the market for D&D because it has a better product? Or is the market for D&D because it has the attention? A second question would be: at which point does streamlining become dumbing down?

Quote from: David Johansen;1078533As I've said, I think there's space for a Cephus Engine style, clone.

Fudge was developed by Steffan O'Sullivan  in part because of GURPS issues with scaling small creatures versus large creatures. While a distinct system from GURPS a fair amount of GURPS design ideas made it way in.

It also includes the idea that it would do what GURPS does but in a much easier to learn package.

Fudge Design Notes (http://www.panix.com/~sos/rpg/fud-des.html)
From the Fudge Design Notes

QuoteAnd in fact, though I tend to pick on GURPS later in this document, that's merely because I'm most familiar with it. I would pick more on other game systems, but I don't like most of them well enough to have gotten to know them as well as I know GURPS. So please don't take the comments below as anti-GURPS - they're really not. They're just examples of what I found lacking in all existing games, which drove me to write Fudge.

So folk here wanting something that is a simplified GURPS, Fudge is your ticket. Not only it has its origin in that ethos it also open content under the Open Game License (http://www.fudgerpg.com/fudge-publishing/39-fudge-srd.html) and the core is designed as a toolkit.

If folks are interested in the discussion that led to Fudge you can poke around here (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.design/UKm1psxF0yw/b3a8yvpmwk0J). This is part 2 of Steffan's post (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.design/M-Jfe_gwvZQ/U8K9eMSN7AMJ).

As personal note, I poked around with this myself. What lost my interest is that with 4DF, a +1 bonus has an outsized effect on the odds thus making the steps in character advancement too large of an increment. But then about two years ago I realized that (and tested) a d6-d6 which doesn't have the same issue. But by then I was into other projects and also played AGE which proven to be more elegant way to do what I want to do.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078533The real barrier is that the fans would never be able to agree on what that should look like and it would just fragment.

The advantage of using GURPS as a designer  is using a system that one knows well. While there is an existing audience for GURPS stuff as shown by Gaming Ballistic's kickstarter, the designer still needs to grow their audience to make what they are doing "stick" so to speak.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078533The OGL deliberately put D&D into the wild, and let it go.  I'm pretty sure Steve Jackson will never go for that.  Implementing a quality control and compliance system would simply cost more than SJG could ever make from running one.  Or that's basically the argument they've put forward in the past.

Sorry for not being explict, but in the words of Kenobi there are alternatives now. In the 2000s when this debate first erupted we only had the example of the OGL, and traditional licensing. Since then several successful alternatives emerged like the DM's Guild, Savage World's licensing, and so on. So the choice isn't just between Nothing, traditional 3P licensing, and the OGL.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078558The question is: is the market for D&D because it has a better product? Or is the market for D&D because it has the attention? A second question would be: at which point does streamlining become dumbing down?

It been 40 years, I think it been proven that D&D is a rare example of a traillblazer that got it right from the first. That the one major departure, 4th edition, only lost out to a previous editions (3.5 in the form of Pathfinder) and the D&D brand regained the crown after course correcting back to what made D&D great with 5th edition.

As for dumbing down things there is Fudge versus GURPS which got no traction, then there is Fate versus Fudge, which did get some traction. Hint it wasn't all about changes to the system that made Fate work. It was a publisher who was more in touch with their audience and did interesting things with the settings they implemented with the rules.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078516Hence TFT

I'm not sure if that is a solution imo. It's not that well known by the younger or even some old members of the hobby. I just see it as another dud of a magic bullet imo. It needs to give gamers a reason to switch over from 5E to TFT. The nostaglia of a older IP coming to life is hit or miss usually miss imo. As many miss the gold old rpgs of yesterday...may do not want to pay for it.

Quote from: Aglondir;1078519Was that "Streamlining Hero" circa 2004?

I think it is as before TPB before woke and insane it was a fun place to go hang out. I think I even participated in that thread and as the op mentioned the usual chorus of " no no changes! You will ruin the Hero System! Go play another rules light less complex rpg like Savage worlds." etc. Now fast forward to 2019 Hero Games is on life support with the patient fading fast and SJGames is cutting back on Gurps. Then again those of us who wanted to simplify the system what did we know. Even back then I could see the signs  of dissatisfaction with both rpgs in my area. Besides one person for Hero no one ran Gurps. Plenty had the books just no one willing to put up with the complexity and crunchiness. It turns out brand loyalty goes out the window when they can use a faster, less complex, and rules light rpg. It did not help that Pinnacle at the time was able to secure a great publishing deal for the format 10$ US for the entire set of rules and slightly slimmer than the average paperback.

Quote from: estar;1078522You guys are all suggesting "magic bullets" and making the same mistake SJ Games made. That this one project or this one change in vision is going to fix GURPS. What needed is a multitude of efforts each doing their own thing with GURPS, within reason. Cutting in SJ Games a portion monetarily of course but pursuing their own creative vision as how to present things and what kind of content to write.

So far everything has been a bunch of magic bullets and SJGames has been lucky in most respects. Munchkin could have been a failure. TFT is being marketed on the system yet mainly nostalgia. Releasing books for Gurps that not many people are interested in. Sure their forums will have a bunch of fans saying they will buy them. Those same fans are not stupid they will tell the company to release the new material. Then and IF they buy it when they are damn good and ready to do so when it benefits them. I kind of understand Gurps Discworld. Mars Attacks was just a WTF moment. Being creative is all well and good when the IP is making one money. Not so much when the rpg is not making money. I get your point about risk yt at this point what to they have to lose. WOTC took a risk publishing 3E and it could have gone either way and it payed off for them. Playing it safe and keeping the status quo is why Gurps and Hero System is where they are now.

Quote from: estar;1078522Nobody know what will work unless it is tried. If you are going to push anything then push to let you or something who is interested take a crack at it. And keep in mind this will in addition to whatever SJ Games decides to release for GURPS.

Anyone with any intelligence doing their research and willing to actually look with a fresh pair of open eyes could have seen the rpg market trend to less complexity and rules light. Especially when SJGames and Hero Games are losing money and moving less product. Sometimes it's not so cut and dry yet when it comes to fans wanting less complexity and crunch in their rpgs only the most obtuse, stubborn and more importantly willfully blind would say otherwise. Understanble if Savage Worlds and Fate just hit the market in the last five years or so. Both have been out for quite awhile and SJGames and Hero Games choose to ignore the market trend and are now paying the price. At this point neither company can claim to be in the dark about that as both would be disingenuous to me at least if either ever claimed that.
 

Quote from: estar;1078522Unlike Hero System SJ Games has the infrastructure and know how to do this digitally at least in the form of Warehouse 23.

Besides the infrastructure they also kept the the 4E size of the core books to a manageable decent level and keeping the core in print. NOW we can finally get the majority if not all the products for Hero 6E. At least a good 6-7 years after announcement of cutting back on publishing new Hero Material, Volume 1 of the 6E core many other 6E were out of print, going for stupid prices on Amazon and only available in PDF. Which also hurt their sales further. I can understand 1-3 years it should not have taken that long for them to go POD.

Quote from: estar;1078531Well the trick is come up with something that is effective and that makes Steve Jackson comfortable. As Phil said he is the guy in charge.

The main point I would emphasive is that there isn't going to be a 3PP competitor that overtake SJ Games in GURPS. Even if GURPS is released under the OGL, Steve Jackson official stamp of approval is always going to count more than any 3PP no matter how good they are.

The whole Pathfinder D&D 4th edition thing is a special case and a result of Wizards shooting themselves several times in several different ways. It going to be more like Chaosium and Mongoose Runequest.

Again unless the terms of how 3pp material are truly detrimental to SJGames then with all due respect Steve Jackson get over fast being uncomfortable. Gurps needs something new even 3pp. If they are worried about another Pathfinder situation make it so that a small reasonable yearly fee be paid to SJGames for every person who wants to publish 3pp. Before anyone cries bloody murder "it must be free" SJgames is not a charity and why should someone make money of their rules without SJGames receiving some kind of reward. Yes you will be surprised if the amount asked is not too expensive and Steve Jackson is honest about the reason for the fee people will pay to use it to publish 3pp. An OGL will be detrimental to Gurps. One where SJGames receives a small licensing fee means that even if their is a Pathfinder version of Gurps SJGames receives some kind of profit.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078558at which point does streamlining become dumbing down?

Not an easy question to answer. To some fans any change is dumbing down even if the makes the game easier to run. 5E D&D has shown that enough gamers don't care if it's dumbed down. As long as they can make the same characters they could in the previous edition, fixes the flaws and speeds up game play the majority don't care. It's usually the grognards who don't want to learn and spend money on a new set of rules. While being pissed they no longer can find players for their table. As more often than not if the new edition is well received and online and out of it word of mouth gets around players and DMs move to the new edition. The only gamers I see complaining and using dumbing down are players using old editions.

Quote from: sureshot;1078565Playing it safe and keeping the status quo is why Gurps and Hero System is where they are now.

I have not followed any of the drama behind the Hero System other than sticking with 5th edition because 6th edition didn't offer anything new or compelling for me. I suspect many other Hero fans felt the same, at least they did in my neck of the woods, and as result 6th edition was doomed irregardless of how much effort the company put in.

As for GURPS, it ills and conservatism stem from the success of Munchkin. There is only so many hours in the day and the priority has to be on what is the company's bread and butter. What hours were devoted to GURPS has to be in pursuit of what keeps the line profitable. In this they been successfuly thus Sean Punch remains employable and there is a trickle of new GURPS products every year.

The two systems situation is not analogous despite both of their decline.

 What I do know possible solutions to GURPS has to be the ones that minimizes the time SJ Games needs to devote. Even if they revamp GURPS and come up with the all time best ever product for an RPG and sell like gangbuster to RPG hobbyists, it still not going to compete with the board/card game market juggernaut. Even D&D doesn't compete with the board/card game market although it is popular and by far #1 in its category.
 

Quote from: sureshot;1078565Anyone with any intelligence doing their research and willing to actually look with a fresh pair of open eyes could have seen the rpg market trend to less complexity and rules light.

I been in the hobby a while and seen trends come and go. It better to do your own thing and do it well. Presenting it in a matter that is interesting and easy to learn. GURPS should remain GURPS. I had success at distilling GURPS into a few easy to read cheat sheets that get newcomers to my campaign up to speed quickly. GURPS problem it doesn't have a presentation that is interesting and easy to learn.

The Dungeon Fantasy RPG has a little of this. There are some "new" advantage that are really old advantages combined with limitations and enhancements applied. Instead of presenting all the bits and pieces separately like it is in the core rules. Sean Punch presents just the combined point total and wrote it up as it own thing.

Another is not to design your take around high point totals. Which multiplies the number of options on the character sheet which means more things to learn by the player.

For example I had success with novice with stuff like the following. It not perfect and relies too much on me being there to explain things but with the explanations fleshed out a bit and given a working over I think it would at the right level of complexity.
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Gods%20-%20Set,%20Myrmidon%20Template.pdf


This idea can be applied to any implementation of GURPS to present a GURPS RPG that easier to learn then reading the core books or the supplements without changing the system.

Again GURPS has the options, the problem been one of presentation not system design.



 

Quote from: sureshot;1078565Understanble if Savage Worlds and Fate just hit the market in the last five years or so. Both have been out for quite awhile and SJGames and Hero Games choose to ignore the market trend and are now paying the price. At this point neither company can claim to be in the dark about that as both would be disingenuous to me at least if either ever claimed that.

Fate and SJGAMES and for that matter the OSR succeed because there are interesting settings and supplements that show how things work when implemented. All three have robust 3PP communities. Fate and Savage Worlds both have a principle publisher (Pinnacle and Evil Hat) that reap the lion share of the sales.

What important that unlike when the "What do about GURPS" debate first came now we have numerous examples of different type of licensing and different levels of publisher involvement to examine. I can't say which one Steve Jackson likes best but a lot of the ifs and maybes has been replaced by real experiences in other areas of the industry.
 

Quote from: sureshot;1078565I can understand 1-3 years it should not have taken that long for them to go POD.

The problem of HERO Games from what little I followed about it is that all boiled down to the decisions and whims of a single individual. One whose decision did not work out. a few years ago I met Steven Long and the some of Hero system team at a convention once. I left with the impression at just how passionate they are about Hero 6th edition was for them. Doesn't surprise me what happened with Hero Games. I don't think it was inevitable but ultimately it didn't work out.

GURPS isn't a failure. I misspoke when I said that. It is a niche product with a dedicated audience. They can manage their PDF and PoD business. I don't think trying to come out with a new edition that is "rules light" will work. People, especially the new mass audience for D&D, want D&D. New players are not spreading out in the hobby like they used to. People want D&D and we will see if they move on to 6E whenever that comes out or leave the hobby all together.

World of Warcraft had like 15 million subscribers at one point. Folks didnt leave WoW for other MMOs. They left WoW and didn't pick up another game. That audience that made WoW so big, those are the folks playing D&D now.

Munchkin is the money maker. A 3PP platform would allow folks to use GURPS that don't need a lot of revenue to justify the investment. I like GURPS 4E. I don't think it needs a new edition. New presentation for sure....and I think DFRPG does that.

Quote from: sureshot;1078568The only gamers I see complaining and using dumbing down are players using old editions.

I don't use any D&D edition. But it's clear that the current trend in RPGs is losing accuracy for the sake of simplicity. At which point does it become too much and pandering to entry-level gamers? Where does it end? Why even have advantage and disadvantage? Or any modifiers to straight tests?

Quote from: estar;1078578I been in the hobby a while and seen trends come and go. It better to do your own thing and do it well.

I am in a weird place. Back in the 90s I was more a "role-player" instead of a "roll-player". But back then it was aaaall bout the loot and the XPs for many gamers. Now the winds have changed and I oddly find myself having to advocate for more GAME elements in role-playing games. Advantage in D&D 5E is ultimately a gloss-over mechanic: we don't care about the detail that games like GURPS care about. To us, it's all the same. We want less mathematics (which are game elements) so that we can focus on the role-playing.
I feel we have begun trading one extreme for another and I wonder how long it will take for some people to miss accuracy in their games.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078591GURPS isn't a failure. I misspoke when I said that. It is a niche product with a dedicated audience.

Here's the thing: IF the current market is at trading accuracy for simplicity and IF Steve Jackson wants to maintain an accurate system and IF he does so because he prefers accuracy, then what does he do to promote a different approach to games? Where is the effort by publishers of more complex games to push back? Or do they all just roll over? Well, I won't.

Accuracy matters: the adventure is in the odds.

There's a couple considerations when one looks at doing a clone.  Which I no longer advocate really but have put a lot of thought into.

The simpler approach would be to essentially create a framework for people's self published material to be GURPS compatible.  I think this would need a couple degrees of separation to avoid legal issues but at the least, one roll Strength and Health together and call them "Size" to make the attributes compatible.  You could also blow things apart, separating damage and lifting to get 5 point Strength, Knowledge, Reason, Perception, and Willpower.  Manual Dexterity, Agility, Speed, and Reflexes to get Dexterity.  The second doesn't look simpler but could have stats moved into traits and have, perhaps six attributes.  I'd lean towards moving the skill modifying parts of attributes into traits and keeping the parts that have absolute in game effects like damage and hit points.  Traits would be more like the hero system set with a more generic trait like social, mental, and physical being able to provide positive or negative values.  With this scheme it would be quite possible to divide point costs by 5, making basic characters 20 points and so on.  The This has the advantage of being actually 100% compatible with GURPS  Skills would be paired down and categorized like traits so each would match to five GURPS skills.

The other method would be to create a true new standard that matches to many of the good things about GURPS.  So, modular, hierarchical structure, structured formats, point buy characters, detailed but fast playing combat with realistic options.  This is the method that's most likely to fragment and become irrelevant.  On the other hand it's actually a new game and a new standard without the fan base or reputation for good or ill.  I think it's the more morally acceptable route.

I've dithered around with both ideas over the years.  I've got a number of my own game designs in various states of completion and I don't really feel the need to step on the toes of people I like even if I expect they've got a picture of me on their dart board, hoping, of course, they've mixed me up with that Rockstar who shares my name :D  If you really want to reach a larger audience and make some money there's still the D&D based OGL.  If you're just a poor, misunderstood, raging, egotist like me bowing to the desires of other is just silly and you should just go your own way and do your own thing and just pile on those trite aphorisms.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078599I don't use any D&D edition. But it's clear that the current trend in RPGs is losing accuracy for the sake of simplicity. At which point does it become too much and pandering to entry-level gamers? Where does it end? Why even have advantage and disadvantage? Or any modifiers to straight tests?

I get the point your trying to make yet a decent amount of gamers do not want to spend the money on complex or crunchy systems. All one has to do is look at the fate of Gurps and the Hero System. It's not just entry level fans who do not want complex and crunch it's also older fans not willing to spend the time and effort as well. If their is a faster more rules light alternative to Gurps and Hero they will spend money on that.

Good job on the template Estar some mighty fine work. The problem is many too many gamers will look at that and simply "nope not for me too much I will go back to Savage Worlds." Presentation matters yet if the complexity and crunch remains that is the only thing players will see. I think many here under-estimate how popular rules light less crunchy systems are and more importantly how much the average gamer wants to put up with that complexity and crunchiness. Sure in a perfect world both rpgs could survive as is we don't live in one.

Can anyone name me one prominent figure in role-playing today that is arguing for complexity in games? Or is it all just a relentless stream of "less is better" messaging?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078605Can anyone name me one prominent figure in role-playing today that is arguing for complexity in games? Or is it all just a relentless stream of "less is better" messaging?

I can speak to that in regards to the Majestic Wilderlands versus straight OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry. No you don't pitch complexity, instead you pitch why are you doing it.

For example I added a skill system. I don't call it a skill system because unlike most skill systems it doesn't define what you can do but rather what you are better at. So I called an ability system and pitch it as Any character can attempt any ability. A magic user can stealth, a cleric can pick locks, a burglar can preach a sermon, and a fighter can deicphier some writing.  Just some classes are better at those activities than other.

And the reason I bother with it all because the focus of my campaign has been on the players making their mark on the setting like becoming kings, guildmasters, or magnates. This required me to expand the world outside of the dungeon and adventuring.

I make it clear that this focus is not THE way of playing classic D&D but A way and I am presenting how I do it. If you like it great if you don't hope you find the rest of the book useful.

This approached extends to all the other rules addition I added.

And it been successful enough to earn enough sales to warrant Electrum on RPGNow and Silver on DriveThruRPG.  Accomplished by adding complexity to OD&D.

So like I said, it about knowing what you want and doing it well. With the caveat that you present in a way that is straightforward and interesting to learn. One way to do both is making sure you add the minimum to make what you want happen. As well as clear writing, good presentation, well designed rules, well play tested rules and so forth and so on.

And what I did with the Majestic Wilderlands and OD&D, can be done with GURPS. Not just because of my work but because what I did has been successfully repeated across the OSR time and time again.

Complexity will not sell, but complexity that used when needed to make an RPG that is fun and interesting will sell.

Fun Fact
My Majestic Wilderlands for Swords & Wizardry supplement origin  is found in a series of notes and templates from 20 years of playing the Majestic Wilderlands using GURPS (2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition).

Quote from: sureshot;1078601Good job on the template Estar some mighty fine work. The problem is many too many gamers will look at that and simply "nope not for me too much I will go back to Savage Worlds."

Appreciate the compliment.

As for the "nope too complex" issue, it takes a package deal to overcome it. Complexity will be accepted if it part of a good design that is fun and interesting to play. But there is work involved in demonstrating why your idea is fun and interesting.

As a side comment, keep in mind that the average hobbyists likes a certain amount of complexity. It possible to go to far to simplicity and thus hobbyist will lose interest as it is to go too complex.

Quote from: estar;1078578...It better to do your own thing and do it well. Presenting it in a matter that is interesting and easy to learn. GURPS should remain GURPS. ...

Again GURPS has the options, the problem been one of presentation not system design...

Fate and ...and for that matter the OSR succeed because there are interesting settings and supplements that show how things work when implemented. All three have robust 3PP communities. Fate and Savage Worlds both have a principle publisher (Pinnacle and Evil Hat) that reap the lion share of the sales..

And both are much lighter systems than GURPS or HERO - that cannot be discounted,

Presentation is important - but presentation can only do so much like sureshot points out:

Quote from: sureshot;1078601I get the point your trying to make yet a decent amount of gamers do not want to spend the money on complex or crunchy systems. All one has to do is look at the fate of Gurps and the Hero System. It's not just entry level fans who do not want complex and crunch it's also older fans not willing to spend the time and effort as well. If their is a faster more rules light alternative to Gurps and Hero they will spend money on that.

Good job on the template Estar some mighty fine work. The problem is many too many gamers will look at that and simply "nope not for me too much I will go back to Savage Worlds." Presentation matters yet if the complexity and crunch remains that is the only thing players will see. I think many here under-estimate how popular rules light less crunchy systems are and more importantly how much the average gamer wants to put up with that complexity and crunchiness. Sure in a perfect world both rpgs could survive as is we don't live in one.

Quote from: estar;1078578...
I been in the hobby a while and seen trends come and go.

That argument could have been trotted out around 2000 or so. But at this point the trend is permanent.

Yes in the early 80's to the 90's you saw an uptick in complex systems, primarily as a reaction to D&D. Wanting to model "reality" and get away from "arbitrary D&Disms".

But today, all those systems are functionally dead in the general RPG hobby.

Games are going more towards Genre Sim rather than Reality Sim, in design.

The days of seeing RoleMaster and Champions taking up shelf space in an actual store are over.

The days of people even recommending them for someone looking for a superhero or fantasy system are over.

And GURPS is in the same boat.

Why?

Because you can get the same effect at the table with less complex rules systems.

And the Hobby is not going back.

Complex games like GURPS, HERO, And RoleMaster are the Trend that came and went...

If large numbers of new players are coming into the hobby via simple systems, then perhaps the future trend will be towards more complex systems as those players might be wanting more and more detail.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078599I am in a weird place. Back in the 90s I was more a "role-player" instead of a "roll-player". But back then it was aaaall bout the loot and the XPs for many gamers. Now the winds have changed and I oddly find myself having to advocate for more GAME elements in role-playing games. Advantage in D&D 5E is ultimately a gloss-over mechanic: we don't care about the detail that games like GURPS care about. To us, it's all the same. We want less mathematics (which are game elements) so that we can focus on the role-playing.
I feel we have begun trading one extreme for another and I wonder how long it will take for some people to miss accuracy in their games.

Not surprising. I playtested a bunch of stuff since I started writing and inflicted some of them on my friend who game with me. :-). There were some things I tried that were "too light" and they wanted something with more mechanics in them.

In general my observation if one sticks with a setting over the course of many campaigns that you develop an idea of what the details are. And those details get consistent rulings even in system that don't have much to begin with it. Thus for me at least I wind up in the same sport irregardless of the complexity of the system I use.

Quote from: estar;1078617No you don't pitch complexity, instead you pitch why are you doing it.
[...]
So like I said, it about knowing what you want and doing it well. With the caveat that you present in a way that is straightforward and interesting to learn. One way to do both is making sure you add the minimum to make what you want happen. As well as clear writing, good presentation, well designed rules, well play tested rules and so forth and so on.
[...]
Complexity will not sell, but complexity that used when needed to make an RPG that is fun and interesting will sell.

Sure, I can agree to that. So why is GURPS worth it? Why can't we replace all Ads/Disads and their unique rules with Aspects and uniform rules? Why can't we remove all modifiers and replace them with Advantage a la D&D? And this isn't GURPS-specific either. It concerns as well complex games like Shadowrun (the ruletext of which, btw, is not clearly organized; it's a PITA to read). FFGs 40K RPGs were also somewhat complex (but with generally very well organized texts). Do these types of games do enough to convey the value of their complexity?

Quote from: Jaeger;1078622Because you can get the same effect at the table with less complex rules systems.

And is exactly the notion that SJG and others need to challenge. Without a succcessful challenge, they have no value proposition.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078622And the Hobby is not going back.

I remember when it looked like the hobby would forever revolve around getting loot and XPs only. So I take that with a huge grain of salt, tbqh.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078622And both are much lighter systems than GURPS or HERO - that cannot be discounted,

Presentation is important - but presentation can only do so much like sureshot points out:

That argument could have been trotted out around 2000 or so. But at this point the trend is permanent.

What permanent is the impact of digital technology and open content. Which has led to more diversity in all areas. Because every niche can be supported effectively in the time one has for a hobby if there is material legal to use and profit from.

It doesn't matter what is the larger trend is. Except for when you have a established company that has to met overhead, then that becomes a consideration. There one has to weigh the options and go with the ones that allow you to meet that overhead and profit. The question in my mind, is whether a solution can be found for GURPS. Where SJ Games is happy and allows the GURPS hobbyists to support their niche with the time they have for a hobby.

Before anybody scoffs I have a bit of experience with systems that were dead and their hobbyists who brought them back to life.

Quote from: DocJones;1078625If large numbers of new players are coming into the hobby via simple systems, then perhaps the future trend will be towards more complex systems as those players might be wanting more and more detail.

People mostly come into the hobby via D&D.

Which is already fairly crunchy/complex at high levels.

I can see Players looking for different types of complexity, for their specific genre emulation fix.

But I don't see them as going up in complexity. Especially if the game isn't D&D.

Quote from: estar;1078634What permanent is the impact of digital technology and open content. Which has led to more diversity in all areas. Because every niche can be supported effectively in the time one has for a hobby if there is material legal to use and profit from.

No one is saying that a niche cannot be supported. Rolemaster is still around. I'm sure it has fans.

But as far as the larger hobby is concerned, its days of relevance are long past.

Quote from: estar;1078634It doesn't matter what is the larger trend is. Except for when you have a established company that has to met overhead, then that becomes a consideration. There one has to weigh the options and go with the ones that allow you to meet that overhead and profit...

Which is SJG's case.  I and others don't think that they have taken the larger trend of reduced complexity in game design into consideration.

Quote from: estar;1078634Before anybody scoffs I have a bit of experience with systems that were dead and their hobbyists who brought them back to life.

OSR? Reviving less complex version(s) of the most popular RPG in the world?

Yeah still niche, but OSR games occupy a grand canyon equivalent of niche compared to the shallow grotto that GURPS and HERO find themselves in.

And they gained enough awareness in the RPG hobby as a whole that OSR philosophy influenced 5e.

The history of the Warhammer 40000 games is a long, complex mess, that begins with GW's in house Black Library publishing Dark Heresy passing it off to Green Ronin and then to FFG.  The complexity was higher than most people wanted but there was a legacy issue.  It was a case of the setting's popularity and the long pent up demand for an rpg making the existing system acceptable.

D&D 5e isn't much simpler than GURPS, especially when you start adding in all the options at higher levels.  I'm not a huge fan of the Advantage / Disadvantage mechanic anyhow.  D&D 5e's Resistance mechanism involves (gasp! horror!) division!

This is why I always say GURPS needs a killer ap.  The system is great but systems aren't the main selling point for roleplaying games.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078635People mostly come into the hobby via D&D.

Which is already fairly crunchy/complex at high levels.

This is part of the genius of the level system, especially if combined with random character generation. It's simple to start, and as the character becomes more experienced, so does the player, who can now handle the increased complexity and in-game challenges.

It has its flaws, of course. But escalating complexity has proven to be more popular than complexity right from the start.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1078646This is part of the genius of the level system, especially if combined with random character generation. It's simple to start, and as the character becomes more experienced, so does the player, who can now handle the increased complexity and in-game challenges.

It has its flaws, of course. But escalating complexity has proven to be more popular than complexity right from the start.

Has this been shown by anything other than D&D? Because it's certainly true that D&D is more popular than other games, but there are a lot of reasons for that. Outside of D&D, I don't clearly see this as a trend. GURPS, Hero, BRP / Call of Cthulhu, FATE, and many other systems are all second-tier, and they don't have escalating complexity.

It's certainly a reasonable choice - but I don't think that the point about popularity is proven.

Is it possible that it doesn't matter what another publisher does, how simple or complex, or anything that the hobby boom is never going to really move beyond D&D?

The MMO Boom never took place after WoW. Prior to WoW, there were dozens of MMOs in development, after WoW dozens more went into develop, very few came out. We had a Conan game, sci-fi, more fantasy, even a Sims MMORPG, and they all failed. The MMO genre is now a niche within a niche. Is it possible that it doesn't matter what these publishers do that they will never capture more sales? I think that is the most likely outcome. The current generation that is making up the new D&D players are the same people that made WoW boom. Very few will play anything else and when they stop playing D&D they will not play any other RPG.

So here is the thing: Outsideo of D&D no RPG makes any significant revenue. GURPS is more successful than a lot of rules lite or simple games. I think a lot of folks don't see it because the GURPS community is on the SJ Games forums.'

I just checked out the RPG.net forum users and they had 245 registered users brokering the forum at 10:04 PM EST.  The GURPS forum at 178. I don't see away to tell me how many are on theRPGSite right now.  The RPG Pub had 10. Let's say there are 5x the users here than RPG Pub, that's 50 here. The point is that GURPS has an active userbase but it is in its own community. Most GURPS product is sold through Warehouse23. Part of the reasons GURPS is so invisible is that SJGames did such a great job adapting to technology in the late 90's and early 2000's that they built their own ecosystem.

We have people here thinking like GURPS isn't successful. Tens of thousands of people play it. It is going to be having its 7th reprinting of the rulebooks this year. It launched in 2004. We have had 3 editions of D&D in that time. GURPS is successful enough to have had a long running magazine, a full time editor, multiple freelancers that make real money writing GURPS content, a small publisher that has its business built around releasing Powered by GURPS material (which will branch out to TFT this year), there is a very successful podcast that is run by GURPS fans (Happy Jacks).  From George RR Martin, Steven Erikson, and many other famous fantasy novelists, to the guy from Silicion Valley, there is even a big "celebrity" wing of GURPS fans.

Is it possible and just here me out here....that we have people in a bubble and we don't really see what is popular outside of our bubbles? This forum is a heavily OSR site. RPGPub seems to way more heavily into BRP/Mythras. The RPG.net is a big site for more "story" game type games. D&D being more than 90% of the market dominates everywhere.

Bottom line: I don't think there is a market that GURPS can sell to and still be GURPS. Maybe having a printing of GURPS lite and a GURPS Continuing Lite would help. I think DFRPG is a fabulous entry point to GURPS. I don't think SJ Games should chase a market that isn't really there.

The hobby doersn't really move RPGs from anybody not named WoTC at physical retail anymore. Gone are the days when we would see entire walls and stores dedicated to RPGs like we did in the 80's and the 90's.

If you post on the GURPS forums what GURPS heads want is hard even to pin down. I want a Third Party Publishing program like what Savage Worlds and others are doing. I'm an engineer and GURPS is my cup of tea. I think maybe we should stop (and I'm very guilty of this) trying to pretend it is 1995 again and just try our best to make sure we support the publishers we like, share what we like, and try to introduce people to the games we like. RPG Publishers should try to make products that their audience wants and try to grow little by little. There is no sliver bullet to be had because there is no werewolf to kill.

D&D is big now. When the audience that made D&D 5E successful stop playing they aren't playing anything else. We aren't in another 80's boom. If D&D is cheese pizza maybe GURPS shouldn't try to compete with that. Maybe GURPS can be fine French cuisine. It's not a big as pizza but it is still tasty.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669We have people here thinking like GURPS isn't successful. Tens of thousands of people play it. It is going to be having its 7th reprinting of the rulebooks this year. It launched in 2004. We have had 3 editions of D&D in that time. GURPS is successful enough to have had a long running magazine, a full time editor, multiple freelancers that make real money writing GURPS content, a small publisher that has its business built around releasing Powered by GURPS material (which will branch out to TFT this year), there is a very successful podcast that is run by GURPS fans (Happy Jacks).  From George RR Martin, Steven Erikson, and many other famous fantasy novelists, to the guy from Silicion Valley, there is even a big "celebrity" wing of GURPS fans.

When the SJGames the company that created Gurps is reducing their releases for Gurps as their last major releases for it did not sell well. So that they can focus on more profitable products for the company than to me at least Gurps is not selling well. It's all well to say people are playing RPG XYZ. If the numbers are enough for it to be profitable for their parent company it's not a good sign. I'm sure gamers play Hero System and Rifts and one company is on life support and the other which may surprise gamers here and elsewhere used to be in the top ten. Both are surviving and not thriving in the rpg industry. Now if both Gurps and Hero System were profitable and if SJGames was not reducing the amount of support Gurps is getting then it's another thing.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Is it possible and just here me out here....that we have people in a bubble and we don't really see what is popular outside of our bubbles? This forum is a heavily OSR site. RPGPub seems to way more heavily into BRP/Mythras. The RPG.net is a big site for more "story" game type games. D&D being more than 90% of the market dominates everywhere.

If SJGames and Hero Games rpg lines were profitable. With both seeing major release and SJGames not cutting support for Gurps and Hero Games not on life support than tell us we are talking out of our asses. You want to ignore what is happening because I can only assume that your unhappy with the state of Gurps. What more do you need when SJGames is cutting back support for Gurps because it is not profitable. A well run company does not cut back support on a profitable rpg line if it popular. Push the narrative of us being ignorant all you want at this point I think you don't want to accept that Gurps is no longer popular.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Bottom line: I don't think there is a market that GURPS can sell to and still be GURPS. Maybe having a printing of GURPS lite and a GURPS Continuing Lite would help. I think DFRPG is a fabulous entry point to GURPS. I don't think SJ Games should chase a market that isn't really there.

Bottom Line: your just like too many Gurps  and Hero System fans I see on forums. Nothing can be changed because it will not be Gurps/Hero System anymore. Keep the status quo even if it kills Gurps/Hero System. No solutions to fix the problem besides 3pp. Then a few years down the line complain that no one is playing Gurps and it's not popular. While hoping the hobby and those who play in it suddenly see the error of their ways and demand a return to more complexity and crunchiness. I don't think that will happen if ever. I doubt we will see a return to computers with a fraction of the processing power that take up an entire room make a return. While I like how a model T looks I don't think car manufacturers or even consumers want to see them make a major comeback. Not without major  upgrades and changes that fix the flaws and make it easier to use than previous editions.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669The hobby doersn't really move RPGs from anybody not named WoTC at physical retail anymore. Gone are the days when we would see entire walls and stores dedicated to RPGs like we did in the 80's and the 90's.

We not see entire walls they have changed and carry more board games, novels, comics and other products to appeal to a more wider audience. More importantly they carry popular rpgs and similar items that sell. Online sales have taken a big chuck of sales. Where I live we have four stores that carry rpgs yet not just rpgs and seem to be doing well.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669If you post on the GURPS forums what GURPS heads want is hard even to pin down. I want a Third Party Publishing program like what Savage Worlds and others are doing. I'm an engineer and GURPS is my cup of tea. I think maybe we should stop (and I'm very guilty of this) trying to pretend it is 1995 again and just try our best to make sure we support the publishers we like, share what we like, and try to introduce people to the games we like. RPG Publishers should try to make products that their audience wants and try to grow little by little. There is no sliver bullet to be had because there is no werewolf to kill.

Your the only one I can see among others here that is trying to do more than just simply push no changes and maintain the status quo. Opening it to 3PP is a good start I just don't think it is enough. I stopped going into Gurps threads or the SJGames forum because it's all about no changes to the current rules and maintaining the status quo even if it kills the Gurps IP. I'm done dealing with fellow gamers who lament the lack of popularity for Gurps while demanding nothing be changed to save it. As much as I want to support Gurps and Hero Games they simply refuse to offer me what I want in a generic rpg and I have moved on less complex and crunchy systems. Do I want to see Gurps or the Hero system die off no yet I cannot and will not justify spending money an rpg company that does not offer me what I want or on a rpg I no longer want to run or play.

 

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669D&D is big now. When the audience that made D&D 5E successful stop playing they aren't playing anything else. We aren't in another 80's boom. If D&D is cheese pizza maybe GURPS shouldn't try to compete with that. Maybe GURPS can be fine French cuisine. It's not a big as pizza but it is still tasty.

I think your vastly underestimating how popular D&D is. Stranger Things has two seasons with a third confirmed. Granted the version of D&D played is 1E it is still brand exposure for D&D. With the ability to buy the 1E PDFs cheap through Wotc Dungeon Master Guild. More importantly WOTC shows they are willing to fix the flaws of their older rpg engine even if it means alienating older fans. Granted 5E was a somehwat of a gamble and it payed off. As for your French Cuisine analogy the food may be more higher class than Pizza it also needs to sometimes change and be served differently. Pizza may taste the same it's also cheaper and easier to get in some places than French Cuisine.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Is it possible that it doesn't matter what another publisher does, how simple or complex, or anything that the hobby boom is never going to really move beyond D&D?

Well, yes, especially if there is never a pushback from other publishers. D&D is a RPG like any other - it has its strength and weaknesses; it specializes in certain aspects of role-playing while neglecting others. Part of the appeal of Knights of the Black Lily is just that: providing an experience that D&D does not do - which then becomes the justification for some amount of complexity. If you want at least SOME players to move beyond D&D, have something different on offer. How many, if any, will de facto change is a different question.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Is it possible that it doesn't matter what these publishers do that they will never capture more sales? I think that is the most likely outcome. The current generation that is making up the new D&D players are the same people that made WoW boom. Very few will play anything else and when they stop playing D&D they will not play any other RPG.

It's only right that you call them D&D players. Because role-players they are not. It's one thing to have tried various RPGs and have come to the conclusion that D&D is your thing. That's an informed choice. But never even considering to try other RPGs raises a lot of questions about such people and what brings them to D&D to begin with. It's a bit insulting, actually. And not without irony when the very same people talk about being inclusive, LOL.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669D&D is big now. When the audience that made D&D 5E successful stop playing they aren't playing anything else. We aren't in another 80's boom. If D&D is cheese pizza maybe GURPS shouldn't try to compete with that. Maybe GURPS can be fine French cuisine. It's not a big as pizza but it is still tasty.

That would work if SJG could charge the prices of French cuisine. But it can't, in part due to pirated PDFs. No, either you have a value proposition, then you take a stand for it or you don't think you do, then you adapt. Well, or you just don't care and let things roll on.

So, I  placed an order with SJG for about $400, mostly GURPS books.  I figured out why the shipping was so high, and fixed it.  They had my shipping address in Africa for some reason.  As usual I'm an idiot.  $120 is still a lot for shipping but that's why there are distributors.  Battle Front, Mantic, and Warlord do free shipping, I order direct from all of them.  Not as often as I'd like but high minimum orders have that effect.  That's not a dig at SJG they probably have fewer direct retailer sales due to being in distribution and the shipping companies also look at volume when setting prices.

And yes, I'll be backing this kickstarter at the retail level.  It's a bit of a gamble, the store was VERY tenuous last year and I still doubt my wisdom in going forward with it as orders are money out of pocket right now.  But the reality is that if I can't or won't get GURPS in it probably shouldn't be the thing I run most at my store.

Where is the evidence that rules light is the popular and the right move for SJ Games to make? Nobody knows how many copies of the books, that SJ Games releases every month for GURPS, actually sells. Is there any evidence that Fate is more popular than GURPS? (Insert your own lite system in place of Fate)

D&D 5E is extremely popular. No other RPG is. I am willing to bet GURPS sells better than most "rules lite" systems and I bet there is a lot more crossover if the same people buying a lot of rules lite systems.

I think a big reason for the popularity of Savage Worlds is the 3PP agreement that makes it easier for hobbyists to create product.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711Where is the evidence that rules light is the popular and the right move for SJ Games to make?

Additional comments in addition to the point being made above.

1) The rules light slot at SJ Games is now taken up by The Fantasy Trip.

2) ANY single approach is a "magic bullet" based on a educated guess subject to the vagaries of taste. Because GURPS is a toolkit, because GURPS 4th edition was largely presented as a toolkit, it can support as a system and benefit from multiple efforts done at once. Preferably in a way that doesn't consume the time of Steve Jackson and his staff.

Which of those efforts would be "best" I don't know now, I know what I would try but what key is that there more one thing being done.

At this point your going out of your way to not post in good faith, being purposefully disingenuous, while moving the goal posts because you can't really defend or argue against Gurps and rules complex and crunchy games being less popular.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711Where is the evidence that rules light is the popular and the right move for SJ Games to make? Nobody knows how many copies of the books, that SJ Games releases every month for GURPS, actually sells. Is there any evidence that Fate is more popular than GURPS? (Insert your own lite system in place of Fate)

Pinnacle is doing really well. Successfully Kickstarted Savage Rifts which is popular and selling well enough to warrant them doing another Kickstarter for more SR book. That they are not cutting back on Savage Worlds releases to focus on more profitable products. I do not spend my  entire free time on rpg sites and forums yet until the company posts that rpg line XYX is dead or not profitable I assume they are either doing well. Or doing poorly and hiding it from the fans. I prefer to remain optimistic. To be fair Evil Hat is doing something similar to SJGames and focusing on more profitable lines and also cutting back on releases. Though I think it's less to do with popularity and more to do with growing too quick to fast.

SJG 2017 report to shareholders 2017. I could not find one for 2018.  http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/ . At the bottom where it's written in the report " Everything else is a non-priority, something to do after the priorities are under control. ". As well as showing their top 40 profitable products with the core set for Gurps only making the list. Either your being deliberately obtuse, stubborn or just being a troll at this point. Let me guess the shareholder report is fake.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711D&D 5E is extremely popular. No other RPG is. I am willing to bet GURPS sells better than most "rules lite" systems and I bet there is a lot more crossover if the same people buying a lot of rules lite systems.

Gurps is selling so well that with the exception of one Gurps product the rest of them do not even make the top 40 products per dollar volume for SJGames. Selling so well that it's not even a priority at this point with SJGames focusing on more profitable products and cutting back support for it. With their main competitor in even worse shape and on life support. I guess you will ignore that too as it goes against the " Gurps is profitable, you all don't know what you are talking about" narrative. As we all know anything and everything that goes against the narrative is to be ignored.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711I think a big reason for the popularity of Savage Worlds is the 3PP agreement that makes it easier for hobbyists to create product.

Of course that is the only reason :rolleyes:. It has nothing to do that it can do much of what Gurps and Hero Systems does with less complexity and crunchiness. While also having a much smaller less expensive core book* . It's just the 3pp agreement because no other rpg company has one of those. It really is all about the narrative with you is it Lurth.

* Which unfortunately from what I read they will not be able to do in the newest version of Savage World. The managed to secure a great deal on the first print run of Savage Worlds explorer edition. It's not possible this time around and were honest about. The latest SW adventure edition will print version will be more expensive. Still the PDF is going for 10$ on Drivethrurpg so it's still cheaper than many other core PDfs on the market.

Quote from: sureshot;1078721you can't really defend or argue against Gurps and rules complex and crunchy games being less popular.

I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078638No one is saying that a niche cannot be supported. Rolemaster is still around. I'm sure it has fans.

But as far as the larger hobby is concerned, its days of relevance are long past.

Rolemaster fan here, though not actively playing or buying it.  I think the gong show at ICE is as big a part of that as anything.  Still, they have a lot of digital ERA support and a new edition in the works.  I suspect they'll move towards a digital platform that automates the book keeping and chart flipping. Could become the first game that's fully set up to GM with just your cell phone.  I wouldn't count them out.  Nicholas Caldwell is a smart guy but he's had a real Gordanian Knot to untangle ranging from rights owned by freelancers who didn't get paid during the bankruptcy to a really volatile fan base divide.

I think the format of 4th edition is really the biggest obstacle.  But bear in mind that at the time, churning out splat books was still the standard business model in the industry.  In hindsight a bit bigger evergreen core might have worked better.  That key books like Magic, Martial Arts, and Ultratech are out of print is a real problem right now.  I suspect (based on the books still being available in print) that world building guides like Fantasy and Space were less popular.  D&D 5e's model where they put new spells and monsters in adventures to make them more desirable might have worked better in the market we got.  Who could have foreseen the d20 boom and glut and bust?  One core book.  Magic, Technology (including vehicles), Martial Arts, and Powers might have been a better core.  It's hard to say.  I think moving away from the one book core format was a mistake.  Maybe?  Anyone got a time machine?

Quote from: estar;1078722I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.

This. This is where I'm at.

I can speak somewhat to what did the Hero System in.  

First, the "Fuzion" disaster created some ill will and lost momentum at a bad time for the game.

Second, and much more complicated is the rest of this post.

My slant is that the twin appeals of Hero have historically been:

A. I can run any game I want with it (with the usual caveat of "as long as I don't mind it being like Hero" and "with a whiff of superhero" thrown in.).
B. The system is significantly elegant in practice, given that scope.

(And as a counterpart, though much less experienced with GURPs, I'd say it hits a different target in the next ballpark, focused more on grit and trading hyper-pursuit of elegance for much more supporting material.)

For me, circa 1987, with a very limited budget and a wide range of games to run, point A carried a lot of weight.  It did with a wide range of players that wanted to participate in my games, too.  Point B was why it worked.  Today, my limited time is more focused on the specific things I want to run now, rather than all of them.  And if I do want to run something specific, there is a good chance that a game is available that will do that thing.  (As it happens, I don't much want to, but others do.)

Along comes the fight leading up to 4th edition, where there is the Steve Long faction and the opposition.  These could be crudely but somewhat accurately described as:

1. Hero needs more stuff in the toolkit while tweaking things around an unchanged core.
2. Hero needs even more elegance by fixing a few fundamental problems.

Long won, and what we got was 5E, that didn't simplify anything (of any consequence), and made the product even larger and more inaccessible to those who didn't already know it.  Also leached out a great deal of the flavor in the process.  Yeah, it was better organized than 4th, and fixed a few things.  This was somewhat akin to the change from AD&D 1E to 2E.  Once they got it organized, and it didn't sell very well, they started to consider that maybe the other camp had some insights.  However, at that point they'd gone so far with the stuff, that removing the derived values and other pieces of "more elegance" were even more difficult to do.  In effect, 5E caused the "elegance" crowd to give up on the game, while 6E was too little, too late to win them back--and managed to piss off a few of the people that had agreed with the direction of 5E in the first place.

I was always in the "more elegance" crowd on the grounds that about 90% of the trouble in Hero was caused by 10% of the rules, that had never been really designed but just hung around from a superhero focus, and never quite fitted into the wider system.  However, fixing those properly could only be done in a new edition, because that 10% touched a lot of the rest of the system.  And that while I didn't personally place that much emphasis on "more stuff", that if you removed or replaced that 10%, any new stuff would be easier to provide and more well received once you did.

The core question here is: how do you rate the success (or lack of it) of a product separate from its marketing? In the case of RPG systems that's hard to tell. How do you know the product has to change versus the marketing?

Quote from: sureshot;1078721It has nothing to do that it can do much of what Gurps and Hero Systems does with less complexity and crunchiness.

Well, that is a claim I would be extremely hesitant to make - for it shifts the burden of proof from the other side ("Okay, what can GURPS do better?!") to you. Btw, I'm not discounting that you might be right about people moving away from more complex games. But it's not necessarily comparable to "technological progress" from which there is no turning back - it might just be fashion, which is prone to change. Especially in entertainment.

Beyond that I would suggest to anyone avoiding inevitability - it's too easy to come across as politics along the lines of "Hillary has a 97% chance of becoming the next president." Trying to wish something into existence or to create the public perception of alleged inevitability.

sureshot, I know you're functionally illiterate but go back and read the stakeholder report one more time. 10% of the items in the top 40 are for GURPS! 4 GURPS products, including their 6th best selling product. Do you know how to read beyond a first grade level. Based on your posting here I don't know if you do. We know you're stupid. Is it the words you have an issue with and the reason you need simple games? Is doing basic math too complex? Try Prince Valiant it just requires coin flips.

Your entire post is bullshit. You think you're smart but you're really fucking dumb. Everybody knows that SJ Games makes their nut with Munchkin and their board games. The entire hobby industry is basically about selling board games now. RPGs only bring in about $55 million in revenue and D&D is more than 90% of that. All the other RPG companies fight over about $5 million in revenue.

Sureshot, because you are having such a bad faith discussion I'll help you out: nothing SJ Games can do will bring enough significant revenue to justify the opportunity cost. SJ Games has GURPS lite and it's free. I think a GURPS Continuing Lite would be another good product to add (and I said so above but you ignored it because you're too fucking stupid to breathe). I want the 3PP program so folks can use the game engine to do a lot of different things without having to have SJ Games look at the resources they have and where their revenue comes from and decide that the resources are better spent on another munchkin product or board game.

The biggest headwind that the DFRPG faced was management mistakes not market failure.  They didn't budget the time and resources properly and they didn't have their supply chain model done correctly. It came in over cost and behind schedule. The market wanted it. If they could have not had those errors it would have been a tremendous success.

Here is what GURPS has had: Douglas Cole has successfully had two kickstartersa for DFRPG content and he has others planned for this year. We have the reprint and the Monsters 2 book currently on KS.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078727The core question here is: how do you rate the success (or lack of it) of a product separate from its marketing? In the case of RPG systems that's hard to tell. How do you know the product has to change versus the marketing?

Having some experience with this from being with the OSR from its beginning in the mid 2000s.

Success is a variety of works that are produced on a regular schedule with a nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form done at a profit to cover overhead and expenses for the next project.

Because overhead and expenses have tumbled due to digital technology is possible to accomplish this using the time and budget one has for a hobby.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078723Rolemaster fan here, though not actively playing or buying it.  I think the gong show at ICE is as big a part of that as anything.  Still, they have a lot of digital ERA support and a new edition in the works.  I suspect they'll move towards a digital platform that automates the book keeping and chart flipping. Could become the first game that's fully set up to GM with just your cell phone.  I wouldn't count them out.  Nicholas Caldwell is a smart guy but he's had a real Gordanian Knot to untangle ranging from rights owned by freelancers who didn't get paid during the bankruptcy to a really volatile fan base divide.

I think the format of 4th edition is really the biggest obstacle.  But bear in mind that at the time, churning out splat books was still the standard business model in the industry.  In hindsight a bit bigger evergreen core might have worked better.  That key books like Magic, Martial Arts, and Ultratech are out of print is a real problem right now.  I suspect (based on the books still being available in print) that world building guides like Fantasy and Space were less popular.  D&D 5e's model where they put new spells and monsters in adventures to make them more desirable might have worked better in the market we got.  Who could have foreseen the d20 boom and glut and bust?  One core book.  Magic, Technology (including vehicles), Martial Arts, and Powers might have been a better core.  It's hard to say.  I think moving away from the one book core format was a mistake.  Maybe?  Anyone got a time machine?

the two core books back in 2004 seemed like a great idea. It seemed like an even better idea in like 2002 when they started writing the books. I don't think folks in the early 2000's thought about how much World of Warcraft would eat everybody's lunch, the death of the OGL boom that happened with 3.x, and Wizards of the Coast launching 4E that almost killed the fucking industry in 2008.

I think those books are still in print via POD at Amazon. They have a huge list of them and I'm pretty sure those books are on there. I just think that the RPG hobby peaked in the 90's and it isn't coming back to that level, for the industry as a whole, and we will see D&D boom and bust but it is large enough and has a big enough name to keep going.

For me, I don't think it is about GURPS trying to compete with the more simple and less complex games that are out there. I don't think the average Savage Worlds player is going to be interested in GURPS just because GURPS comes out with an expanded GURPS Lite product line or SJ Games launches GURPS medium. I almost think that SJ Games should follow the Goodman Game's route. And, keep in mind after the launch of D&D 4E, Joseph Goodman was thinking about getting out of the business altogether because of the cluster fuck that is 4E.

DFRPG simplifies GURPS (I don't think Sureshot has a clue what DFRPG actually is) and I think it's s important to keep that line well supported with physical product. I like the POD model as well. It seems that SJ Games has the most success with DFRPG, Action!, Monster Hunters, etc. using the GURPGS toolkit to do the heavy lifting for players. I think most of us agree that the GURPS engine is good. The issues I've had is that if you're a new to GURPS player and have only played D&D and I give you the GURPS rulebooks (campaigns and characters) you really won't know what to do, how to build it, and how to go. If I give you the DFRPG box or an Action! Boxed set, it isn't that hard for a new player or something wanting something simpler to get up and running quickly.

I also think the KS model works better with boxed sets like DFRPG. I think if SJ Games launched another KS to fund Action! The boxed set or Monster Hunter, they'd have another six figure KS. I think where 3PP comes in is that it is much easier for the Douglas Coles of the world or the estar's of the world to product quality content on a much lighter budget than it is for SJ Games because their manpower is limited and they have to make sure they keep the lights on. Dr Kromm can only do so much.

So summing up: my three prong approach: Keep GURPS Lite in print and have a "continued" light product line. Use the boxed sets as GURPS medium, and then have full GURPS for the core audience that wants the toolkit. Don't come out with a 5th edition that does away with what the core audience likes. Just use the engine to power these "simpler" and easier to get up and running products. This also creates away for folks that get started with one boxed set to easily jump into another and already know how the game works. It creates a bridge to the core rulebooks.

Quote from: estar;1078722I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.

Good points though if change nothing and maintain the status quo is the goal than it will not get better for SJGames and Hero Games. As doing nothing but minimal changes and only offering their rpgs to their core audience and only them is why both companies rpgs are hurting in the first place. It's all good to say don't cater to the majority of the hobby. As long as the core audience is large enough to support the rpg on their own and from the looks of it they are not. Again no solutions beyond change nothing and hope the situation gets better while doing nothing to improve the worsening situation. 3pp is one way to go and I hope it pans out.

I'm trying to view this not as an ex-Gurps fan and more someone looking in and so far I'm not seeing any willingness on the Gurps fanbase to try and save it. The trend is for more rules light and less crunch screw that it won't work. Why should SJGames cater to a larger group after all Gurps is doing just fine. Not many here want to acknowledge the elephant in the room where SJGames feels that Gurps is not profitable and it's not even something they will really put much effort into. Maybe in 5-10 years and hoping their rules light less crunch competition screws up in a big way. Most fans are not going to waste that much time waiting and will move eroding the current fanbase further.

It's all to say their is no magic bullet and their is not. Yet when rules light less crunch systems are more profitable and keep releasing new material. Well some here want solutions that amount to do nothing and hope that things get better for SJGames. Hope does not pay the bills money does. Yes those who want a rules light less crunchy version of Gurps realize it's a risk that might hurt rather than help Gurps. Yet it's not really healthy as it is anyway. Better to do something than nothing at all.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728sureshot, I know you're functionally illiterate but go back and read the stakeholder report one more time. 10% of the items in the top 40 are for GURPS! 4 GURPS products, including their 6th best selling product. Do you know how to read beyond a first grade level. Based on your posting here I don't know if you do. We know you're stupid. Is it the words you have an issue with and the reason you need simple games? Is doing basic math too complex? Try Prince Valiant it just requires coin flips.

Four out of 40 products that is published by SJGames is not a indicator of success for Gurps. So i made a mistake about Dungeon Fantasy. While backing up that SJGames considers Gurps non-profitable to the point that it's not a priority. I can admit to making mistakes. Your the one that kept asking for proof that Gurps was not profitable. I showed it you. You tried to imply we did not know what we were talking about the lack of profitability about Gurps. I went to SJGames site and showed others. Don't get pissed at me or butthurt when your proven wrong.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728Your entire post is bullshit. You think you're smart but you're really fucking dumb. Everybody knows that SJ Games makes their nut with Munchkin and their board games. The entire hobby industry is basically about selling board games now. RPGs only bring in about $55 million in revenue and D&D is more than 90% of that. All the other RPG companies fight over about $5 million in revenue.

Nice yet failed attempt at a dodge and moving goalposts. No one here ever said that Munchkin was a failure or that SJGames boardgames were as well. . Most of knew including myself knew it was the main product making money and profitable for them. Report to Shareholders 2016 http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/report17.html and from 2015 http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/report16.html. Both reports indicate Gurps was hurting and Munchkin was their main bread and butter. I make it point to visit the SJGames site as it was the first generic rpg I played in then Hero Games. It's no longer my generic rpg systemof choice. Yet neither am i glad to see that as rpg it is hurting. Again nice try at trying to change the subject. I knew boardgamers were top sellers because all the gaming stores in my area are 70-90% boardgames, cardgames and other non-rpg materials with 10-20% rpgs. Even than it's only popular rpgs. They will order in non-popular rpgs say Rifts books yet they will not stock them.

 I never claimed to be the authority on the subject. I just go tired of you making it that myself and others who disagreed with you were idiots.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728Sureshot, because you are having such a bad faith discussion I'll help you out: nothing SJ Games can do will bring enough significant revenue to justify the opportunity cost. SJ Games has GURPS lite and it's free. I think a GURPS Continuing Lite would be another good product to add (and I said so above but you ignored it because you're too fucking stupid to breathe). I want the 3PP program so folks can use the game engine to do a lot of different things without having to have SJ Games look at the resources they have and where their revenue comes from and decide that the resources are better spent on another munchkin product or board game.

Yes because keeping the status quo and changing nothing has done wonders for the sales and profit of SJGames or Hero Games. You want a miraculous recovery yet you don't want SJGames do change anything about. I agree with you that Gurps lite is a step in the right direction. Yet that needs to be done to all the rules. Not just an introductory rules to Gurps. Even then it's not enough imo. Compared to the Hero Games version it is sorely lacking. It is a good introduction yet not enough to run a game with it. At least Hero games sidekick had about 85-90% of the rules included and you could run and do much with it alone. 3pp is also a good option though you can't run and support an rpg line with just 3pp support imo. All Hero Games is now is just 3pp. They need to ensure that they get a licensing fee with their 3pp so even if SJGames has situation that Wotc had with Pathfinder they make money off their potential more successful competitors.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728The biggest headwind that the DFRPG faced was management mistakes not market failure.  They didn't budget the time and resources properly and they didn't have their supply chain model done correctly. It came in over cost and behind schedule. The market wanted it. If they could have not had those errors it would have been a tremendous success.

Poor management and enough fans who are not interested in buying the rules as is. If they had not kickstarted it I'm not sure if it would have been a success on it's own. You seem determined to downplay that enough gamers just do not want rules complexity and crunch. When the company that created the rpg is cutting back on publishing the rpg it's not a good sign and a good indicator that enough fans are voting with their wallet. A properly run company does not reduce support to a popular profitable rpg line without a good reason. Yes DF is a success to some extent. It's just a variation of Gurps and that also needs to be successful too.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728Here is what GURPS has had: Douglas Cole has successfully had two kickstartersa for DFRPG content and he has others planned for this year. We have the reprint and the Monsters 2 book currently on KS.

I am glad that Douglas Cole is doing a bang up job with DF and that is doing well. Overall Gurps needs more than just DF. Until we see something major in terms of more than the status quo and no changes I don't think it will ever happen .

Where are the rules-light systems that make it to the ICv2 Top 5 though? I see almost exclusively rules-medium to rules-heavy games there. Again, there are role-playing fans that want to denounce more complex games, make it seem as if they're dinos of the past, doomed to extinction and talk the situation they're thus conjuring up into existence.

I have to observe that 40k Roleplay was described here as successful in spite of its crunch: fans wanted less crunch and it was only successful because of the underlying IP. But then we look at Zweihänder and WFRP 4E and this explanation looks increasingly shaky... like an attempt to denounce complex games in order to shift public perception. That is exactly the kind of talk that in recent years has not received pushback by fans of less dumbed down games. If (and they might as well be) more complex games are floundering, then it is in part due to just that and their inability to turn the tables on these critics.

Really, you can hide much of GURPS complexity in simple tables.  Take defence rolls half skill + 3 isn't hard to chart.  D&D does as much with it's attribute bonus table.

Quote from: sureshot;1078742Good points though if change nothing and maintain the status quo is the goal than it will not get better for SJGames and Hero Games.

The two situations are the same in only one respect, that they no longer hold the same sales position relative to the rest of the RPG industry, they had in the mid 2000s. Other than that their current circumstances are different as well as how they got to where they are now.

Quote from: sureshot;1078742I'm trying to view this not as an ex-Gurps fan and more someone looking in and so far I'm not seeing any willingness on the Gurps fanbase to try and save it.

One has to have the means and with Gaming Ballistic in the picture it changing and the means may yet appear.

Quote from: sureshot;1078742The trend is for more rules light and less crunch screw that it won't work.

That assessment is as much of a magic bullet as anything else done to date. It obvious you are passionate about the idea. But other including myself are not.

What you need to work towards is selling SJ Games on to let anybody who interested to take a crack at it within reasonable boundaries of taste. Because in that environment you can attempt your rules-lite idea and see how it sells.

My personal assessment is  that it will lose any advantage of associated with the name GURPS as it will be GURPS in name only. Much in the way D&D 4th edition was D&D in name only.

And more importantly that one can achieve the goal of rule lightness within the existing system by presenting less stuff i.e. lower point totals, revamped skills, revamped advantages, sticking to basic combat rules, all  still within the structure set by the core books.

Finally that there are systems out there are GURPS lite. The AGE system by Green Ronin and FUDGE by Grey Ghost. Their design got there by ditching much of the detail that make GURPS it own thing.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078753Really, you can hide much of GURPS complexity in simple tables.  Take defence rolls half skill + 3 isn't hard to chart.  D&D does as much with it's attribute bonus table.

I always found the complexity of GURPS was before players got to the table. Once we start playing I don't think the game is really that complex.

Quote from: estar;1078754One has to have the means and with Gaming Ballistic in the picture it changing and the means may yet appear.

Took a look at the site and I agree it has potential. Though the website itself not easy on the eyes imo.

Quote from: estar;1078754That assessment is as much of a magic bullet as anything else done to date. It obvious you are passionate about the idea. But other including myself are not.

It not just being passionate. It's the reality of the situation. Enough gamers are just not interested in Gurps. To the point that keeps being ignored by you and others here. My approach is a risk better than jst doing nothing. Right now unless 3PP Gurps REALLY takes off I don't see things getting better only worse

Quote from: estar;1078754What you need to work towards is selling SJ Games on to let anybody who interested to take a crack at it within reasonable boundaries of taste. Because in that environment you can attempt your rules-lite idea and see how it sells.

It's not my rpg nor my company, nor my job. I'm not interested in doing so without getting paid. Up to SJGames and the fans who interested to do so. My group has no interest in Gurps. They like D&D specifically Pathfinder and Gurps. While making it clear they are not interested in something else. I cannot and will not waste my time fighting an already lost battle. It's like Palladium Books who refuses to spend money on advertising and expects the fans to do so free through word of mouth.

Quote from: estar;1078754My personal assessment is  that it will lose any advantage of associated with the name GURPS as it will be GURPS in name only. Much in the way D&D 4th edition was D&D in name only.

We are back to square one an rpg that is not as profitable with a fanbase not wanting anything to change yet somehow get better. I might be looking for the magic bullet yet some like yourself want to bury your heads in the sand and expect the situation to improve.

Quote from: estar;1078754And more importantly that one can achieve the goal of rule lightness within the existing system by presenting less stuff i.e. lower point totals, revamped skills, revamped advantages, sticking to basic combat rules, all  still within the structure set by the core books.

Which can work if it is not too complex or crunchy. Presentation will not do much if the fans still have to work through the complexity and crunchiness. It['s for the rpg company to make the rules accessible. While a player has to make an effort as well it's not their job to bend over backwards to do so either.

Quote from: estar;1078754Finally that there are systems out there are GURPS lite. The AGE system by Green Ronin and FUDGE by Grey Ghost. Their design got there by ditching much of the detail that make GURPS it own thing.

I do not know how well is Fudge is doing yet I'm assuming the AGE is doing well as GR seems to be moving all newer rpgs they publish to the Age system. A smartly one business company does not invest in a product that makes no money. Beyond those who are really attached to one rpg system no one cares about rpg XYZ doing it's own thing. They stick with RPG option A until RPG option b comes along that is easier and faster to use. It's why SJGames, Hero Labs, Palladium Books, Columbia games all are suffering to some extent in the hobby. Most fans stay loyal to rpg company XYZ as long as it benefits. Then another rpg that is easier, faster and fixes the flaws of the current rpg they play. You might get a "see ya!" then they switch over to the new rpg. It's what happened with Pathfinder and 5E. With Gurps and Hero Games with Fate And Savage worlds.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1078646This is part of the genius of the level system, especially if combined with random character generation. It's simple to start, and as the character becomes more experienced, so does the player, who can now handle the increased complexity and in-game challenges.

It has its flaws, of course. But escalating complexity has proven to be more popular than complexity right from the start.

Simple to start is the key here.

Quote from: jhkim;1078656Has this been shown by anything other than D&D? Because it's certainly true that D&D is more popular than other games, but there are a lot of reasons for that. Outside of D&D, I don't clearly see this as a trend. GURPS, Hero, BRP / Call of Cthulhu, FATE, and many other systems are all second-tier, and they don't have escalating complexity.

It's certainly a reasonable choice - but I don't think that the point about popularity is proven.

Things are much clearer in 20/20 hindsight.

Being first is a very big deal. And D&D was first.

But it did have things going for it that absolutely helped!

It was simple to start, Easy to create a PC and start a game.

D&D had a built in play dynamic that new players didn't have to wrap their heads around: (Kill things, take their stuff, and level up! The Dungeon was genius for this.)

Add the familiarity of Medieval Fantasy Tolkienesque tropes, and you had a fucking winner.


Where as you look at some of its earliest "competitors", like Runequest, and you can see how it just doesn't hit any of those points at all...

Quote from: estar;1078722I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.

I think this played a large part in the downturn of both GURPS and HERO. In both cases there were concessions made towards attracting new players, pretty hard cover books being a major one that added to the cost and page count. Both included some significant and controversial changes, several of which skewed towards the other (you got some GURPS in my HERO) which alienated some of the current fans. Both ended up in recreating a lot of existing material which was not seen as a necessary expense for the existing fan base.

I wasn't as active with GURPS so I'm not sure how the rules changes went over, from my perspective most were of the optional type (Super skills) rather than major changes to the base system. HERO made some significant rule changes which seem to have been of the love it or hate it variety.

The hard cover full color books added significantly to the buy in, both hovering in the $80 range for the Core rules. HERO stumbled badly on the follow up as most of the 6th ed supplements were little changed from the fairly recent (most only 2-4 years old) 5th edition versions, so the existing fan base really had little reason to buy into anything beyond the core rules except for the most rabid collector / fan.

GURPS at least had time on its side, the various 4th ed supplemental books (magic, high tech etc) were substantial rewrites of often decade + old 3rd edition books making a repurchase more attractive for the existing fan base.

Neither game seems to have found much success growing a significantly larger fan base, and both lost some of their existing player base who decided not to follow the new edition.

Both games had a sizable player base clamoring for a simpler entry point. HERO eventually offered the Complete line, but that seems to have come well after the horses were out of the barn (3 or 4 years after the release of 6th ed and the decline of the companies fortune). GURPS has offered Dungeon Fantasy, and now has The Fantasy Trip to serve as a lighter weight "GURPS" fantasy.


Basic Role Playing has also seen a similar request. It isn't so much easier rules, as less complex options, generic game settings with many options to fit different settings can be confusing to new GMs. What most seem to be asking for with the major generic game systems isn't easier rules so much as products that provide a setting and show the GM which options they should be using.

Perhaps 'alternatives' would be a better term than 'competitors'.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1078769...What most seem to be asking for with the major generic game systems isn't easier rules so much as products that provide a setting and show the GM which options they should be using.

It is both. Easier rules, and a setting; preferably in one complete game.

Savage worlds is a trimmed down version of the old deadlands rules set.

And then pinnacle went out of it's way to ensure that there were plenty of "complete" games for their in house rules.

Trimmed down does not = Fate/Fudge levels of "rules Lite".

GURPS and HERO cannot do just one thing to turn their respective ships around.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078770Perhaps 'alternatives' would be a better term than 'competitors'.

I believe that all have accepted their 'Alternative' status now, and are happy in their niche.

In the late 70's, early 80's, it wasn't as obvious as it is now that toppling D&D was mission impossible.

But it is interesting that no one put out a single game, that looking in hindsight, could have given D&D a run for its money...

Quote from: Jaeger;1078776It is both. Easier rules, and a setting; preferably in one complete game.

Savage worlds is a trimmed down version of the old deadlands rules set.

And then pinnacle went out of it's way to ensure that there were plenty of "complete" games for their in house rules.

Trimmed down does not = Fate/Fudge levels of "rules Lite".

GURPS and HERO cannot do just one thing to turn their respective ships around.

With Kevin Seimbeda helping them become even more popular by allowing them to convert a recognizable IP such as Rifts. Pinnalce had Deadlands yet for some not interested in the Western elements of that rpg. Both were well known rpg IPs in the industry though Rifts imo was more well known. Now they have Rifts and gamers who swore never to touch it again because of the PB set of rules like the conversion and want more. The only gamers in the hobby who seem to dislike are I say even hate it or are the Palladium grognards and purists. I think the idea was beyond much needed cash for PB was to get more people to buy other Rifts titles to complement the missing background elements. Instead due to many mistakes, issues with PB as well as a general dislike for the rules gamers would rather wait for more SW material.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078770Perhaps 'alternatives' would be a better term than 'competitors'.

Like the term or not Savage Worlds and Fate are competitors to Gurps and Hero Games. I can use the term alternatives yet those same alternatives to Gurps and Hero System are still more popular.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078776But it is interesting that no one put out a single game, that looking in hindsight, could have given D&D a run for its money...

Who knew that D&D would be as popular or that those in the hobby truly wanted a generic set of rules. When I played 1E back in the mid-1980s my first thought was " this rpg is too limiting wish their was a generic rpg that did it all and more" instead it was "see you next session for D&D".

Well, D&D is not nearly as popular in Germany as it is in the States, so that shows how path-dependent the standing of a RPG can be.

What are you basing your opinion that Savage Worlds and Fate are more popular than GURPS?

One thing I wonder is why they timed two kickstarters right on top of each other.  Don't they kind of eat each other's tail?  The third party one is just about funded but it's entirely new content.  I'd like to back both but with needing to bring in a bunch of books I'm not so sure I can right now.  Maybe a couple bucks for the adventure.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078786One thing I wonder is why they timed two kickstarters right on top of each other.  Don't they kind of eat each other's tail?  The third party one is just about funded but it's entirely new content.  I'd like to back both but with needing to bring in a bunch of books I'm not so sure I can right now.  Maybe a couple bucks for the adventure.

I think the idea was they'd both support each other. Doug's jist funded and I am sure both will end up funding.  I haven't looked into if that's a good idea or not.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078785What are you basing your opinion that Savage Worlds and Fate are more popular than GURPS?

Fate had a brief stint in the top 5. Where it's now I can't tell.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present)

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078790Fate had a brief stint in the top 5. Where it's now I can't tell.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present)

What's interesting is that GURPS was in the top 5 on there and was #3 for a while after 4E launched.

I think a big thorn in GURPS side now is the lack of published adventures. Prior to DFRPG that was very difficult to develop because no two GURPS games are the same. I do think if SJ Games had Dungeon Fantasy, Action, Space Opera, and Horror boxed sets and had a third party publishers program they'd be able to really grow. It gives a baseline for the most popular genres of games for people to sell into and support and it plays to GURPS strength of being able to simulate so many types of games.

I don't know which game is more popular, but I am focusing on SWADE now vs. GURPS. I still love GURPS, but I need a less... finicky... master. :D Also, GURPS books are useful with any game and the Encyclopedia GURPSia is written in RPG nerd, so that's a bonus.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078776GURPS and HERO cannot do just one thing to turn their respective ships around..

Turning the ship around for Gurps is doable. New production values would go a long way, and by that  don't mean "sprucing up what you've got" but rather firing your entire in-house design team and replacing them with fresh talent. You don't even need to redo any rules, just take a chainsaw to the endless lists. Get rid of the "cup stacking" skills, the "college catalog" skills, and start unifying some of the disads. "Compulsive Behavior, 5, 10, or 15 points" and "Annoying Personality Trait, 5, 10, or 15 points" guts about 33% of the disad text. No one cares about the definition of Zoology or the difference between Greed and Miserliness.

Sadly, I don't think there's hope for Hero. There's complexity in the core mechanics which causes cascade failure if deleted (i.e. if you delete the Speed Chart, you mess up Flash Attacks. If you delete END, you mess up Charges. Etc.) Deleting Killing Damage and switching to one damage scale invalidates every other NPC stat block. The core power rules alone are 98 pages, and that's without examples. You could make a "Hero Lite" without powers (sort of like how Gurps Lite has no magic) but at that point, you can't run 80% of most genres.

But who knows? Everyone thought Hero was dead with Fuzion, and it came back as 5E. And when they thought that was dead, it came back with 6E, which IMO is the best version yet. Maybe 7E will be called the "Unexpected Phoenix Edition."

Quote from: trechriron;1078801I don't know which game is more popular, but I am focusing on SWADE now vs. GURPS. I still love GURPS, but I need a less... finicky... master. :D Also, GURPS books are useful with any game and the Encyclopedia GURPSia is written in RPG nerd, so that's a bonus.

I cannot wrap my head around Savage Worlds because the system doesn't make sense. GURPS makes sense. I love the Savage World settings and I wish GURPS would treat their system more like that

Quote from: Lurtch;1078785What are you basing your opinion that Savage Worlds and Fate are more popular than GURPS?

Unlike SJGames who is cutting back on Gurps support to focus on more profitable products. Savage Worlds not only successfully kickstarted Savage Rifts. It was successful enough that they will publish more. Popularity equals more profits and companies that are run properly do not waste money on products that do not sell. Evil Hat Productions the devs that own Fate are cutting back on their releases not because of a lack of popularitry growing too big too fast with too many rpgs and not enough that are popular while not having the resources to really work on all of them at once.

Or are you going to ask the same question again in two three pages later on in the thread. This is what the second or third time you asked this question.  I notice how you ignore that SJGames is cutting back on publishing more Gurps material yet keep asking over and over why we think Savage worlds and Hero System is more popular. I even showed it with their own Sharehold report. Those report doe not exist goes against the narrative.

Yet I'm the one who is an idiot, can't read and is arguing in bad faith. Pretend to be dumb all you like your not fooling anyone with that bullshit. As usual it's about the narrative. Gurps is still popular. SJGAmes has not cut back on publishing new material the more popular alternatives are definitely not more popular than Gurps. As I said can't wait to be asked a fourth or fifth time how myself and others can claim that Savage Worlds and Fate is more popular than Gurps.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078515Gurps doesn't need it's current fans. They aren't paying the bills by SJG own admission.

 It needs new ones who will buy product.

marketing to just existing fans is what has led them and Hero games on their current RPG death spiral...

1: SJG has made that claim before.

2: Then make new product that the existing fans will buy sell the current edition to new fans so everyone is on the same page rather than create another divide.

3: Except they havent marketed to existing fans in how many years? It was close to a decade before Ogre and Car Wars saw reprints. When was the last time they put out a new expansion or substantial setting book for Gurps?

Quote from: Jaeger;1078776It is both. Easier rules, and a setting; preferably in one complete game.

I think you are right that many want "simplified" versions of these games. Unfortunately ask 10 players of how the game should be simplified and you get 10 conflicting answers. HERO 6th ed made some significant changes, but for some they didn't go far enough, others they gutted what was good about the system. While it was done in the name of making things easier, it missed the mark there as well adding about 50% more pages than 5th ed, which itself nearly doubled the page count of 4th ed.

Quote from: Aglondir;1078809Turning the ship around for Gurps is doable. New production values would go a long way, and by that  don't mean "sprucing up what you've got" but rather firing your entire in-house design team and replacing them with fresh talent. You don't even need to redo any rules, just take a chainsaw to the endless lists. Get rid of the "cup stacking" skills, the "college catalog" skills, and start unifying some of the disads. "Compulsive Behavior, 5, 10, or 15 points" and "Annoying Personality Trait, 5, 10, or 15 points" guts about 33% of the disad text. No one cares about the definition of Zoology or the difference between Greed and Miserliness.

Sadly, I don't think there's hope for Hero. There's complexity in the core mechanics which causes cascade failure if deleted (i.e. if you delete the Speed Chart, you mess up Flash Attacks. If you delete END, you mess up Charges. Etc.) Deleting Killing Damage and switching to one damage scale invalidates every other NPC stat block. The core power rules alone are 98 pages, and that's without examples. You could make a "Hero Lite" without powers (sort of like how Gurps Lite has no magic) but at that point, you can't run 80% of most genres.

But who knows? Everyone thought Hero was dead with Fuzion, and it came back as 5E. And when they thought that was dead, it came back with 6E, which IMO is the best version yet. Maybe 7E will be called the "Unexpected Phoenix Edition."

I disagree that you can't successfully slim down HERO, it has already been done with 2nd Ed Espionage, and 3rd ed Danger International, Fantasy Hero and Justice Inc. These stand alone games were considerably easier to learn and play and they were quite successful. The difficult part has been getting the developers to come down off the universal generic ledge and provide smaller, less complex variants of their core (generic universal) games.

There is really nothing that complicated about the core system of GURPS or HERO, it is all the add ons that add up. Remove the powers (you can substitute pre-built powers if needed) and HERO is actually a fairly light weight game. There are ways to eliminate the need for the speed chart.

Sureshot,
 How many monthly releases do PEG put out for Savage Worlds?

How many monthly releases does SJ Games release?

You're making shit up.

Quote from: Omega;1078828When was the last time they put out a new expansion or substantial setting book for Gurps?

You mean like GURPS Discworld and GURPS Mars Attacks two or three years ago and Dungeon Fantasy last year?

GURPS is just 'too busy' of an rpg. Too many subskills that add up to nothing but confusion and bloat. They need to strip it down to its nuts and bolds to start again.

Quote from: Omega;10788281: SJG has made that claim before.

2: Then make new product that the existing fans will buy sell the current edition to new fans so everyone is on the same page rather than create another divide.

3: Except they havent marketed to existing fans in how many years? It was close to a decade before Ogre and Car Wars saw reprints. When was the last time they put out a new expansion or substantial setting book for Gurps?

True never noticed that Gurps 4E I think the closest thing we have is Banestorm and though I am not sure how much it is popular. Along with DF which given the amount of support for it they consider a failure.  As for Mars Attacks and Discworld while they are settings they are third party setting. Given how superheroes were popular I expected to see a re-issue of Gurps IST or a new background similar to Hero Games Champions. I take what SJGames says with a huge grain of salt.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078844Sureshot,
 How many monthly releases do PEG put out for Savage Worlds?

I see we are back to moving goalposts again

They do put out material. It's not WOTC 3.5. material yet they are releasing new books. Even Wotc who has more money than SJGames and Pinnacle and many other rpgs companies and they are also cutting back on releasing new books. They era of a new book per month is gone and probably not coming back.

Feel free to link a post from Pinnacle where they are cutting back on publishing new material for Savage Worlds because they do not think it is profitable. You really can't it's okay I expect you to move the goal posts again

The link to the Pinnacle Store you can look it up the number of books they release.

https://www.peginc.com/pinnacle-store/

Quote from: Lurtch;1078844How many monthly releases does SJ Games release?

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/

Beyond Mars Attacks and Gurps Discworld all SJGames is publishing much if is Dungeon Fantasy which for some odd reason they invested so much in and consider it a failure ( I truly do not understand SJgames sometimes ). Beyond that all you have is them publishing small very specific subject PDFs. VERY useful PDFs yet nothing major imo. I might be interested in say Hot spots Renaissance Venice or the upcoming Gurps Totem Powers and Nature Spirits. Yet I am the exception not the norm. Gamers are also fucking cheap and complain that the Renaissance Venice PDF is too expensive at 8$. Beyond that it's not a strong showing of new releases.

I think TFt while not the death of Gurps will be the true sign that shows SJGames commitment to some form of Gurps. I hope it does well yet they need to market and develop it well. If SJGames think they can just ride the wave of nostalgia towards TFT and expect to make money they maybe in for surprise. They need to step it up and more importantly not do what they are doing with DF and undermine their own product by not displaying confidence in it.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078844You're making shit up.

You are in complete and absolute denial on the state of Gurps.

SJGames has stated in their own yearly report to shareholders that Gurps is not doing well that they plan and are cutting back on supporting Gurps. Their major push was DF and even that seems to them at least to be a failure. Which I don't understand they put much time and effort and money into supporting it. Only to undermine support for it. It's a really terrible way to run a business imo. This is not me talking out of my ass and making shit up this is the reality of how SJGames is approaching Gurps. Now I can't stop you from being in denial about the subject don't fucking accuse me of making shit up when it is right there on the SJGames website. Nor get angry when people call you out for trying to ignore what is in front of your face.

At this point while not putting you on ignore I am not going to waste time responding to you in this thread any longer. Your not offering any solutions unlike other posters who disagree with me and more importantly those same posters are not in complete denial of the situation. At this point your just going to ignore anything that goes against the narrative, keep insulting me and I don't have the time or patience to waste on disingenuous, disruptive trolls.

I've offered numerous solutions. I just don't want GURPS not to be GURPS. I'm putting you on ignore because you're a moron.

Questions that remain unresolved:

1. If Pinnacle had a portfolio that extended to successful board/cardgames, would they cut down on their RPGs?
2. How light does your game currently need to be to reach the ICv2 Top 5?
3. If games are generally lighter than in the past - is this irreversible progress or fashion that can change at any time?
4. Presuming that it makes sense to offer a lighter version of GURPS, which things would you even trim without damaging the game's unique selling points?
5. Looking at the current success of L5R, is it possible that all GURPS needs is foremostly a new major version with modern production values?

I think it's important to recognize what was stated above, that GURPS exists on its own separate channel.  
They have their own forums.
They have their own E-publishing site.
They had, for decades, their own magazine.

They really didn't intersect much with other RPGs, or cross-pollinate much at all.  The people who play GURPS (and HERO) like it and will keep playing it.  There's something to be said for the "chasing WoW" factor.  Changing the essence and foundation of your product in order to market to a theoretical flood of new consumers, while practically guaranteeing losing the old consumers generally doesn't go the way companies think it will.

The issue with HERO and GURPS isn't that they are generic systems.  It's that they aren't systems at all, they're generic toolkits GMs can use to make their own systems.  GURPS 4th has something like 165 pages of ads/disads in alphabetical order flagged with a system of icons you have to learn in order to figure out what type of ad/disad it is.

HERO and GURPS both need a series of stand alone games that are tailored for a specific genre, if not a specific setting.  They also need to allow for characters of various power levels.  I haven't played GURPS since the 80s and even I know 250 point characters for DF was downright braindead.

You're never going to get new blood in by using the teaching/learning methods used when their parents and grandparents were reading RPG books.  700 pages of options ain't gonna do it.  You need a lean, mean fighting machine that gives them everything they need for a specific implementation (and most importantly NOTHING they don't).  Once they learn the system and figure out how to drive the damn thing, then you can pop the engine and start telling them what the pieces do.  Then you don't drop 5 pounds of paper on them, you give them a Builder's Guide filled with a metric fuckton of examples on HOW to design a GURPS/HERO implementation.  Then you can give them however many thousand pages of rules options the current version has expanded into.

If you don't do something like that, don't bother, quit your whining, and keep selling new versions of GURPS to the same people that haven't needed a new version since 3rd. :D

CRKruger is spot on. I understand why they did 250 points for DFRPG and I run it but I have my players start at 80 points because I like low level player best. I am and my players are okay dying. Having ran DFRPG for non GURPS players at cons they like the super powered 250 point builds .

I do think an all in one box for major genres of play, like I said above, in conjunction with a 3PP program would help build the GURPS user base. It also makes publishing adventures much eaiser because the writers have a baseline to work with.

I'm gonna go with specific implementations that are as concise as possible, aimed toward being booklet sized; fantasy, action, sci-fi, etc. That would've helped (still would help) me get my arms around GURPS. Bare bones would be best. As of right now, as a non-expert, I get kind of an analysis paralysis when looking at the available supplements at W23.

I learned HERO after Fantasy Hero Complete came out and even then I struggled with TLAs and terminology. A 28 page fan created Fantasy Hero Primer (https://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/367-fantasy-hero-primer/) did more me what all of the bigger books combined couldn't - show me enough Hero to roll.

I wish I could say that the learning experience with GURPS 4th was a lot different. I eventually got a game pulled together and I really enjoy it but the core books weren't really sufficient for that. To get a handle on terminology for character and setting creation, such as 'lenses', it felt like I had to understand everything. How to be a GURPS GM (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/howtobeagurpsgm/) did for me what the core books should've - get me going.

The Dungeon Fantasy boxed set is fantastic, but it too verges on overload not necessarily because it's too dense. It's just that I feel like I have to get back into learning GURPS mode to feel confident in deconstructing it to understand what I can use to run the type of fantasy game that I want to play. I'd much prefer to build up.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;10788721. If Pinnacle had a portfolio that extended to successful board/cardgames, would they cut down on their RPGs?

If they didn't expand their staff? Of course.

Would they be wise to expand their staff? Probably not after a certain point. What that point? Beyond my experience other than there is one and exceeding that will tank the company when the next recession in the industry hits.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;10788722. How light does your game currently need to be to reach the ICv2 Top 5?

Well none of the RPG lites darlings are in the top 5. Some of them are of comparable complexity to GURPS like Pathfinder and Starfinder. Most are what people would call medium complexity RPGs.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;10788723. If games are generally lighter than in the past - is this irreversible progress or fashion that can change at any time?

Given the composition of the top 5 and the Fantasy Grounds reports and the Orr Group report when it was still going, I think hobbyists don't give two shits about it. The hobbyist who post on forums may give more of a shit. But not the general populace.

I would say what characterizes the top RPGs are fun and interesting setting or genres and excellent presentation. Not just they are full color layouts but well-organize and easier to use. In short system doesn't sell. However there is one major exception.

A system established by a series of successful genre or setting oriented products. For example Savage Worlds, Fate, and Genesys. All enjoyed a spot in the top 5 periodically.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;10788724. Presuming that it makes sense to offer a lighter version of GURPS, which things would you even trim without damaging the game's unique selling points?

Lower points totals and fewer items on the various lists either by omitting, or consolidating items. What most don't realize that GURPS already does this for example Talents and being able to build custom power as advantage or disadvantages. Just don't show the math or present the alternatives and you are good.

Hell you can even eliminate points. Just come up with a series of packages, do the math behind the scenes and present it as something from A, then something from B, and then something from C.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;10788725. Looking at the current success of L5R, is it possible that all GURPS needs is foremostly a new major version with modern production values?

No. What it needs something completely different that has a different presentation of the main system and whatever it address can't be off the wall, a parody, or tries to turn GURPS into something like a another RPGS.

If I was handed the job I would come out with Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Call of Cthulu all grounded at the heroic level of 125 points with the stuff found in D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu with each with adventures showcasing how it works and along with what make it distinctive.

Each adventure's author will need a deep understanding what makes the leader of each genre work and how that would be fun and interesting in a different when implement with the gritnesses and flexibility of GURPS.

For example a GURPS Keep on the Borderlands would showcase more of the life of the region because GURPS has explicit mechanics that define characters beyond how they fight, and cast spells. But do it with light touch.  It would also alter how the Cave of Chaos is setup to reflect the more gritty nature of the rules.

The result wouldn't be using GURPS to emulate D&D to play the Cave of Chaos as written. But instead serve as an example of how to take something like the Cave of Chaos and make a new and unique experience that is fun and interesting to adventure through the use of GURPS.

For the most part, adventurer are doing the same things they always done but with more grit and more options that involved the life of the setting.

A good example is GURPS Traveller. Which was the Third Imperium setting presented using the GURPS rules. Not GURPS emulating Classic Traveller to play within the Third Imperium. With GURPS Traveller it helped that the Third Imperium was ported between a variety of rules system and that it was skill based from the get go. So it was easier see what were quirks of Classic Traveller and what was part of the setting.

To see some of this design thought in action, my Scourge of the Demon Wolf (https://www.rpgnow.com/product/106705/Scourge-of-the-Demon-Wolf) is a GURPS adventure adapted for use with Swords & Wizardry. I originally ran in a campaign where the characters were at 130 points.

Most of the adventures I have currently in the hopper (The Deceits of the Russet Lord, the Night's Bride Coven, Elf Lord's Temple, etc) will work with 120 to 150 pts heroic GURPS fantasy characters.

Scourge and Russet Lord probably can get resolved by characters that are only 75 points.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078862I've offered numerous solutions. I just don't want GURPS not to be GURPS. I'm putting you on ignore because you're a moron.

You are taking the same stance as guys decrying any changes to the HERO system in the  'Streamlining Hero' thread from 2002 on the big purple:
"Anyone making any of your changes would no longer be playing HERO..." (Actual Quote)

How did that attitude work out for the Hero system again???

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877I think it's important to recognize what was stated above, that GURPS exists on its own separate channel.  
...
They really didn't intersect much with other RPGs, or cross-pollinate much at all.  The people who play GURPS (and HERO) like it and will keep playing it.  ...

And it shows.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877Changing the essence and foundation of your product in order to market to a theoretical flood of new consumers, while practically guaranteeing losing the old consumers generally doesn't go the way companies think it will.

True. Switching gears would be a risk.

It's easy to tell other people what to do with their time and resources.

I cannot blame SJG if they just keep doing what they are doing.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078813I cannot wrap my head around Savage Worlds because the system doesn't make sense. GURPS makes sense. I love the Savage World settings and I wish GURPS would treat their system more like that

It doesn't really need to "make sense" for me anymore. I too was tied up in realism + playability and GURPS does this well IMHO, BUT, I've ran and played SW and it just works. Sure, the math seems wonky at first glance. Sure, it seems lighter at first glance than it actually is. But it does what it says on the tin (Fast, Furious, Fun) and I can run it with less prep. But, if you like GURPS you should keep playing GURPS. I founded a GURPS group in Seattle and my cohort is still running it to this day. It takes more effort to recruit or find players, but this is largely true for any game not D&D.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877HERO and GURPS both need a series of stand alone games that are tailored for a specific genre, if not a specific setting.  They also need to allow for characters of various power levels.  I haven't played GURPS since the 80s and even I know 250 point characters for DF was downright braindead.

That is a good solution though the rules would need to written so that it's not geared for the Gurps gamer and more Joe or Jane Gamer getting into the hobby.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877You're never going to get new blood in by using the teaching/learning methods used when their parents and grandparents were reading RPG books.  700 pages of options ain't gonna do it.  You need a lean, mean fighting machine that gives them everything they need for a specific implementation (and most importantly NOTHING they don't).  Once they learn the system and figure out how to drive the damn thing, then you can pop the engine and start telling them what the pieces do.  Then you don't drop 5 pounds of paper on them, you give them a Builder's Guide filled with a metric fuckton of examples on HOW to design a GURPS/HERO implementation.  Then you can give them however many thousand pages of rules options the current version has expanded into.

The problem is that the a amount majority of the Gurps fanbase adamantly want the teaching/learning methods used when their parents and grandparents were reading RPG books. They want the complexity and crunchiness to remain unchanged. While I agree that as you put it the need for a lean mean fighting machine that gives them everything they need for a specific implementation will be frowned upon, probably considered a betrayal of the core roots of the game or the common phrase in the hobby (nasal, whiny voice) " it's been dumbed down!". Then complain that more books are needed to be bought to complete the system. Even if your version is the easiest, fastest, most accessible generic comprehensive rpg on the market.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877If you don't do something like that, don't bother, quit your whining, and keep selling new versions of GURPS to the same people that haven't needed a new version since 3rd. :D

Trust me they still will. Every now and then when I used to frequent the TBP their would be "why don't people play Gurps, Hero System, Rfuts etc anymore" Posters like myself would say they reduce the complexity and crunchiness and we would be told that it would ruin the rpg, lose it's roots, end of the world. Then go back to complaining for the sake of complaining that not enough gamers are willing to play their favored rpg and put the blame squarely on them.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078887True. Switching gears would be a risk.

It's easy to tell other people what to do with their time and resources.

I cannot blame SJG if they just keep doing what they are doing.

Agreed and seconded.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078887You are taking the same stance as guys decrying any changes to the HERO system in the  'Streamlining Hero' thread from 2002 on the big purple:
"Anyone making any of your changes would no longer be playing HERO..." (Actual Quote)

How did that attitude work out for the Hero system again???

My advice Jaeger don't bother.

Either he will say you don't know what you are talking about. Ask yet again how you, I or others can say that Gurps is selling poorly and what you base that on, while ignoring anything that you say that does not push his " Gurps is absolutely fine and nothing needs to be changed" narrative.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877You're never going to get new blood in by using the teaching/learning methods used when their parents and grandparents were reading RPG books.  700 pages of options ain't gonna do it.  You need a lean, mean fighting machine that gives them everything they need for a specific implementation (and most importantly NOTHING they don't).  Once they learn the system and figure out how to drive the damn thing, then you can pop the engine and start telling them what the pieces do.  Then you don't drop 5 pounds of paper on them, you give them a Builder's Guide filled with a metric fuckton of examples on HOW to design a GURPS/HERO implementation.  Then you can give them however many thousand pages of rules options the current version has expanded into.

I tend to agree that better design and introduction is important for making a new GURPS that expands its audience. That said, I have a bunch of caveats about this.

1) I don't think that teaching/learning methods have changed all that much. The OSR has emphasized that many old RPGs were of a lean, mean, easy-to-introduce format.

2) Even GURPS used to be easier to get into. GURPS 3rd edition was a boxed set that had much thinner books with quick options. 4th edition is much more imposing.

3) There is clearly a big market for Pathfinder/Starfinder level complexity - which is at least comparable to GURPS.

4) The problem with expanding the market is that you need the existing player base to evangelize - and much of the remaining player base for GURPS are those who are really attached to having the 700 pages of manuals with all the options.

GURPS needs a complete new approach.

1) Setup a content creator program. This is restricted to settings, adventures and constructs (rituals, vehicles, monsters, etc.). Rules additions must follow the trad process through SJG.
2) Digitize the entire system into an online toolkit aimed at GMs and Publishers. Line developers can add new "official" options and rules as needed. Options would be modules you buy and enable (Martial Arts, Psionics, etc.)
2a) The online system will allow you to customize the parts that need customizing, choose the bits that need choosing, and combine all your choices/work into a document that can be used to create a published game or GM handout.
2b) The online system has a market place where creators can sell their constructs; spells, rituals, NPCs, characters, vehicles, etc. When you purchase content from the marketplace, you are granted the same rights to publish as the official material.
3) SJG creates a player's guide and GM's guide with only the stuff needed to play and run a game. It includes side-cases, tactical options, etc. but no lists of traits. Make it accessible and trim those books down. Maybe make a box set.
4) SJG then makes the encyclopedic splat books as complete games that were so popular during 3e and arguably still popular (GURPS China, GURPS France, GURPS Special Ops).
5) Market and promote 3PP content which will be "games" unto themselves.
6) Continue to promote GURPS as a toolkit that POWERS games. Do NOT sell any generic books full of traits. That belongs in the games.

As a digital online toolset, GURPS will be easier to maintain. Line developers can add new content via the marketplace as official rules to expand the toolkit for the tinkerers. All GURPS games would be playable complete entities focused on cleaner/faster character creation and helping GMs get into play sooner.

This would propel GURPS into a cool future, putting SJG at the head of the technology pack once again.

^I can get behind the above.

Revising the top 5 ICv2, I doubt that cutting back on options is the way to go. I don't see people minding long lists of ads/disads too much. If you're well enough organized, it's only a problem at chargen for the players. For the GM, it's only a problem when he has to spontaneously piece together a complex being/character during play. One of the unique selling points of GURPS is having extremely long lists of options for characters. If GURPS was to abandon that, as a publisher I would aim to inherit that crown. So, in short, I would be very cautious about what to streamline ouf of the system. And I wouldn't blindly trust conventional wisdom.

It seems to me that some ICv2 entries rather cut down on the math rather than options. FFG games certainly tend to do - and they tend to be chockfull with traits with dedicated rules each. As an aspiring publisher, I will certainly keep mine.

Also, we haven't talked much about one crucial issue either: market fragmentation. There's no way that GURPS will win back any of those gamers that like uniform rules across traits (as FATE's Aspects have) by streamlining the ad/disad rules. For me, it's unsurprising to see GURPS referenced in the FUDGE design notes: Ads/Disads and Aspects are related concepts.

Note: I'm not suggesting a trimming of traits. Only in the "how to play" books. The online repository would have tons of Traits for any genre/game. Your game you created for your table, or you created for your RPG book, would include only the Traits you wanted for that game.

If it's anything like the GURPS Character Editor I'm out.  I hate that thing.

I'm am supporting trechriron's ideas and I think it would be successful while still keeping GURPS....GURPS! I just would add I'd keep the 4E rulebooks in print (or digital) as an evergreen product.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078887You are taking the same stance as guys decrying any changes to the HERO system in the  'Streamlining Hero' thread from 2002 on the big purple

I'm not familiar with Hero other than Steve Long is good people and he and I have had lunch at a few cons.

I don't think I am wanting to keep things the see but keeping GURPS....GURPS. I want the game to transform into the Powered By GURPS model and have SJ publish boxed sets for the major genres that give players a level set for creators, like Doug Cole, to sell into. I don't think just having the reference rulebook and the PDFs is working. I do think DFRPG does work. I do think an Action! Boxed set, Sci-fi, and Horror boxed sets would also work and could self fund over KS.

With DFRPG a group of four can be up and running with characters in about an hour. The system is still pretty easy to run at the table, and since the game makes sense if folks could use the same rules in different settings, I think that's compelling. What hurts GURPS, imho, is the tinker market has shrunk since the 90's and early 2000's when GURPS was far more successful.  Folks don't have time to put together all the pieces for the game. I think folks want something that runs well off the shelf and is supported with adventures and campaign settings.

I'd like the two rulebooks to stay in print because I think they are useful, especially if a creators program starts up (unless they build the super cool online database trechriron talks about) and for nostalgia. GURPS 3E and 4E is my favorite time gaming. I mostly run DFRPG as my GURPS game now because I like fantasy gaming and I can convert the stuff I want. I know most gamers are not like me. But DFRPG is a great product, had a highly successful KS an sold out in a fast time. It is going to get reprinted and I bet sells out within a year as well.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078813I cannot wrap my head around Savage Worlds because the system doesn't make sense. GURPS makes sense. I love the Savage World settings and I wish GURPS would treat their system more like that

1. I can't believe I missed this thread veering off wildly into Savage Worlds.

2. How can you not "get" Savage Worlds? It's like GURPS and Fudge had a mid-crunch baby with a different dice mechanic. The dice acting crazy is where the "cinematic" element is most apparent and is where "Wild Cards" receive their biggest distinction (more plot relevant characters are just better at everything than equally trained nobodies).

I think Savage Worlds has it's staying power (release in 2003) because their devs remain both passionate and discontent, they keep getting product out (both first and 3rd party) and are committed to incremental edition improvements (creating market buz, while not burning long time fans). But GURPS held the distinction of having 100% more full time staff. Savage Worlds only has one full-timer and everyone else is part-time. Rules Guru and over-all major contributor Clint Black, makes game tables for a living, Savage Worlds is his part-time job. That being said, man-hours on Savage Worlds development absolutely crush GURPS time this millennium.

Actually back when GURPS had 2 full-timers, I would say they match WotC (who I think mainly contracts outside of Mearls and JC)

Quote from: trechriron;1078888It doesn't really need to "make sense" for me anymore. I too was tied up in realism + playability and GURPS does this well IMHO, BUT, I've ran and played SW and it just works. Sure, the math seems wonky at first glance. Sure, it seems lighter at first glance than it actually is. But it does what it says on the tin (Fast, Furious, Fun) and I can run it with less prep. But, if you like GURPS you should keep playing GURPS. I founded a GURPS group in Seattle and my cohort is still running it to this day. It takes more effort to recruit or find players, but this is largely true for any game not D&D.

You're probably right. I have a GURPS group here on Phoenix and I like it so that's what I play. I'd probably play 5E if I didn't have a group just so I could play!

Quote from: estar;1078901^I can get behind the above.

I can too. Now the ball is in SJgames court and they are the ones to get the ball rolling.

Quote from: Rhedyn;10789252. How can you not "get" Savage Worlds? It's like GURPS and Fudge had a mid-crunch baby with a different dice mechanic. The dice acting crazy is where the "cinematic" element is most apparent and is where "Wild Cards" receive their biggest distinction (more plot relevant characters are just better at everything than equally trained nobodies).

I'm in the same boat as Lurtch, I bought Savage Worlds, I wanted to like it, but I just don't get it. I've been told it has much in common with GURPS and HERO, but I'm not seeing that.

Not a case of I don't like it, just that it doesn't make sense to me. Probably one of those things where if there was an experienced group for me to join I could make some sense of the rules, but reading the book in a vacuum it goes nowhere.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1078946I'm in the same boat as Lurtch, I bought Savage Worlds, I wanted to like it, but I just don't get it. I've been told it has much in common with GURPS and HERO, but I'm not seeing that.

Not a case of I don't like it, just that it doesn't make sense to me. Probably one of those things where if there was an experienced group for me to join I could make some sense of the rules, but reading the book in a vacuum it goes nowhere.

Examples?

Because I don't understand what you don't understand. (Also SWD presentation is definitely worse than SWADE presentation. Either way you probably have to read the whole book to "get" all the rules. Which many people can't read an RPG book from cover to cover)

Well, I'm in at the retailer level.  Hopefully it delivers on time this time.

As I look at it, I wonder how something with more new content would sell and how well it would have done without the fan's dollars divided between Monsters 2 and Citadel at Novoren.  I do think having a setting and more adventures will be good.  I can understand the value of settingless, but a Dungeon Fantasy specific setting could be a lot of fun.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078786One thing I wonder is why they timed two kickstarters right on top of each other.  Don't they kind of eat each other's tail?  The third party one is just about funded but it's entirely new content.  I'd like to back both but with needing to bring in a bunch of books I'm not so sure I can right now.  Maybe a couple bucks for the adventure.

Part of me suspects that someone, or several, at SJG doesnt quite grasp this. Either that or it was a clerical mixup. Id like to think it was a goof rather than incompetence from people who should know better about release timing.

Quote from: Omega;1078990Part of me suspects that someone, or several, at SJG doesnt quite grasp this. Either that or it was a clerical mixup. Id like to think it was a goof rather than incompetence from people who should know better about release timing.

Please chat with Doug Cole and ask his opinion -- and ask about his data -- on the matter.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078980Well, I'm in at the retailer level.  Hopefully it delivers on time this time.

As I look at it, I wonder how something with more new content would sell and how well it would have done without the fan's dollars divided between Monsters 2 and Citadel at Novoren.  I do think having a setting and more adventures will be good.  I can understand the value of settingless, but a Dungeon Fantasy specific setting could be a lot of fun.

Quote from: philreed;1078996Please chat with Doug Cole and ask his opinion -- and ask about his data -- on the matter.

As I am summoned, so I appear.

Thanks to David for calling out Norðvorn, and my thought in following Sean Punch's excellent GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Setting: Caverntown model and turning it up to 11 was to explore the Nordlond setting in a way that I found extremely compelling, and which got no small amount of positive feedback when I used it on Isfjall in Hall of Judgment.

I don't know what the SJG side looks like. For me, since I have a tendency to be fairly open with this stuff:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3242[/ATTACH]

There are three important inflection points in the graph.

From the left:

1) I emailed my mailing list for Gaming Ballistic and reminded them that the KS was going on and that it was about 40% funded.

2) The Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 2 and Boxed Set reprint Kickstarter launched, and Phil very graciously mentioned it in more than one press release/Kickstarter update.

3) A bunch of really die-hard GURPS fans (including myself) did quite the little push in our circles to attract more interest.

For the first two, it's absolutely clear to me that concurrently running both products has been an unmitigated blessing. It's fantastic, very good, awesome, superlative etc.

On March 2, I was staring at $8500 in funding and a trajectory that was much lower than Hall of Judgment. I was worried about making it at all. Then 1 and 2 happened, and we picked up over $2,000 in three days, which brought us exactly even to Hall of Judgment . . .which to date has arguably been my most successful Kickstarter ever.

The third arrow . . . I'm not sure. The trajectory increased to over $500 per day.

To me, at least, the synergy effect of both  campaigns has been great (and I also am in at the Retailer level, plus the extra player's set). I think that "gee, there's enough going on to support two products at once!" is a very loud statement. I can also state that the communication between Gaming Ballistic and Steve Jackson Games is more than sufficient to have prevented this had either company wanted to do so.

I did not. Clearly, they did not, since I take their nudges to me very seriously, as I very much enjoy the professional relationship we're building.

In short: I think the two Kickstarters don't interfere. I at least, routinely back several Kickstarters at once anyway, and many are in the 5e or OSR space, so "more than one KS at once" seems to be the norm rather than the exception. Give all of the "Jon Snow has Backed X," "Jon Snow has Backed Y," "Jon Snow has Backed Z," (Jon Snow has died! Nope, he's better!) updates I get from following other KS backers, I think I'm not the exception here.

My belief, and I guess we'll see, is that seeing both projects live at the same time helps us, rather than hurts us. Vibrant. Alive. Dynamic.

I hope that answers the question as much as I can for now.

Synergy for the win!

Thanks to Phil Reed and Douglas Cole for swinging by and updating us here at theRPGsite!

Quote from: David Johansen;1078846You mean like GURPS Discworld and GURPS Mars Attacks two or three years ago and Dungeon Fantasy last year?

Except Discworld is a reprint of a book 20 years old. Mars Attacks though is indeed only about 2 years ago. Setting books for Gurps are very niche things. Much like the adaption books for Tri-Stat were.

Dungeon Fantasy I know of only through one of my players who is an avid Gurps fan. Is it actually new product or just repackaging/organizing Gurps Fantasy?

Quote from: sureshot;1078856You are in complete and absolute denial on the state of Gurps.

SJGames has stated in their own yearly report to shareholders that Gurps is not doing well that they plan and are cutting back on supporting Gurps. Their major push was DF and even that seems to them at least to be a failure. Which I don't understand they put much time and effort and money into supporting it. Only to undermine support for it. It's a really terrible way to run a business imo. This is not me talking out of my ass and making shit up this is the reality of how SJGames is approaching Gurps. Now I can't stop you from being in denial about the subject don't fucking accuse me of making shit up when it is right there on the SJGames website. Nor get angry when people call you out for trying to ignore what is in front of your face.

Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1078877They really didn't intersect much with other RPGs, or cross-pollinate much at all.

All I can recall was Gurps Vampire, Werewolf, Traveller & Bunnies & Burrows. And I think there was a Deadlands and something else.. Blue Planet? Does Autoduel count?

Seems like a chunk of that was in the mid 90s and then nothing.

Quote from: Omega;1079060Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

I'm not in a state of denial that GURPS. I am not agreeing with how Sureshot thinks GURPS can "improve". I've posted what I'd like, many times, and what I think would work. GURPS is sustainable at its current output has been said many times by folks from SJ Games. I can provide link after link. I don't think having a 5th edition of GURPS that is a rules light simplistic RPG that moves away from being a toolkit system makes any sense or will work. I do think the future of GURPS being Powered by GURPS in conjunction with other things, can. Sureshots evidence was that Savage Rifts had successful kickstarter like 3 years ago and no new product since. That Savage Worlds is very successful! Welll...that's great but that doesn't mean GURPS SIMPLE would be.

We do know that the Dungeon Fantasy KS was very successful and SJ Games didn't manage the project properly and they had to east the overruns. My interest in GURPS isn't in the brand it is in the game. If SJ Games decided to take GURPS in the direction that sureshot says he wants, not only do I think they would fail, but I would have zero interest in it. If a publisher makes a game I don't like, I don't sit and bitch and moan on forums about it. I just stop playing and stop buying the games.

My relationship with game companies is purely transactional. If they make something I like and I want to play, I'll spend money. If not, I won't.

Quote from: Omega;1079056Except Discworld is a reprint of a book 20 years old. Mars Attacks though is indeed only about 2 years ago. Setting books for Gurps are very niche things.

Wow!  They must have used a larger font on GURPS Discworld, it's at least three times thicker!  They might have re-used some of the text, if they could, that would depend on who held the rights and stuff.  But yeah, substantially re-worked and updated.  I wish I had one, but I sold both of the copies I brought in.  Heck, last fall I actually was desperate enough that I sold my hard copy of Martial Arts.  I'd like another nice black hardback to replace it.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078978Examples?

Because I don't understand what you don't understand. (Also SWD presentation is definitely worse than SWADE presentation. Either way you probably have to read the whole book to "get" all the rules. Which many people can't read an RPG book from cover to cover)

It has been a few years, so examples are hard to come by off the top of my head. It was the small book Explorer edition?

I just figured I'd try to get into a game at a con some day, but never have. Tunnels and Trolls was kind of the same for me. Very simple system, but until I played with a group who had some experience with it, I had trouble wrapping my head around how to really make it work well.

I mean I can read the rules and understand the meaning, but actually applying the rules in a way that makes sense can take some trial and error.

Quote from: Lurtch;1079064Sureshots evidence was that Savage Rifts had successful kickstarter like 3 years ago and no new product since.

Ah yes the distance half-a-million success of a few months ago (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/545820095/savage-worlds-adventure-edition/description)

And this product didn't happen either (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/545820095/flash-gordontm-rpg-for-savage-worlds)

And this one from last year (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/545820095/lankhmar-savage-seas-of-nehwon-a-fantasy-rpg?ref=discovery_newest&term=%22savage%20worlds%22)

Or how about how I am struggling to find a failed KS in this list regardless of first or third party many of which I bought sometime last year without ever realizing they were KS projects (https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/advanced?term=%22savage+worlds%22&sort=newest&seed=2587679&page=2)

PEG does actually vet people before they can release licensed products, still a ton of stuff released every year.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1079087I mean I can read the rules and understand the meaning, but actually applying the rules in a way that makes sense can take some trial and error.

I still have no idea what you are talking about.

I was the one that read the rules on a $10 whim one day and then ran the system for my friends and we have been playing ever since. So I know what it is like to go in blind, but I didn't run into any of these roadblocks you are talking about.

I think we can at least agree that carrying on as they are SJG will eventually run out of GURPS fans.  At the very least, new product and reprints would help to keep the game alive.  Format and rule changes are a bit riskier.  I think we all have a rule or two we'd change but they're not likely to be the same ones.  Personally it's strength scaling then ranged combat then the presentation of skill costs.

Quote from: Omega;1079056Except Discworld is a reprint of a book 20 years old. Mars Attacks though is indeed only about 2 years ago. Setting books for Gurps are very niche things. Much like the adaption books for Tri-Stat were.

Dungeon Fantasy I know of only through one of my players who is an avid Gurps fan. Is it actually new product or just repackaging/organizing Gurps Fantasy?

To be fair Omega before he passed Terry Pratchett did publish more material after the release of Disworld 3E for his series. So while the 4E is probably has a decent amount of reprint chances are new material such as background and update to characters was added to later novels.

Quote from: Omega;1079060Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

Quote from: Omega;1079060Hate to say it Lurtch... But Sureshot is right on this...

SJG has indeed stated the above. Can't find it. But around the time the Ogre KS was announced over on BGG they stated it then when asked about Gurps. Part of the explanation was that SJG runs on really tight margins. A game has to sell enough copies to pay for the next product. This they explained was why they dropped just about everything else but Munchkin for so long.

Be very glad they aren't running like Game Salute's ongoing scam of getting payment for game B to pay for game A and not actually doing game B till they can sucker people into forking out for game C.

Again Omega don't waste your time.

He is in denial about being in denial. Even though SJGames has cut back on Gurps releases he still admits that nothing is wrong and that SJGames is saying the opposite of what they said in their own shareholder reports. Apparently with link after link to prove we are wrong and we probably will never see those links. Note I a not saying Gurps is dead just that they cut back production on the and are focusing on profitable products. Downplays how well Pinnacle is doing even though unlike SJgame they are not cutting back on production for Savage Worlds. He expects Gurps to be as popular with little to no changes and maintaining the status quo. It's been shown by SJGames that it is not and they cut on producing Gurps but dammit man it's still just as popular. Is publishing a rules light, less complex of Gurps of risk most definitely. Beyond DF being popular and (fingers crossed) TFT as popular. it is still not enough imo. Unfortunately SJGames claiming that dF is not a success and banking on nostalgia for the TFT it maybe a break or make moment for Gurps. If TFT does poorly or poorly for SJGames I'm not sure what it will mean for Gurps.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1079089Ah yes the distance half-a-million success of a few months ago (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/545820095/savage-worlds-adventure-edition/description)

And this product didn't happen either (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/545820095/flash-gordontm-rpg-for-savage-worlds)

And this one from last year (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/545820095/lankhmar-savage-seas-of-nehwon-a-fantasy-rpg?ref=discovery_newest&term=%22savage%20worlds%22)

Or how about how I am struggling to find a failed KS in this list regardless of first or third party many of which I bought sometime last year without ever realizing they were KS projects (https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/advanced?term=%22savage+worlds%22&sort=newest&seed=2587679&page=2)

PEG does actually vet people before they can release licensed products, still a ton of stuff released every year.

Don't you know Rhedyn Pinnacle success means nothing and proves that rules light less complex does not sell. That it will be a complete failure if Gurps tries to do it. It's never been attempted but Lurth knows it will fail. He even can post link after link of Gurps still being as popular if not more than Savage Worlds. It goes completely against what SJGames has been saying to their shareholders and to use the fans but what do we know. Be prepared for Lurtch to claim that the successful kickstaters you linked to mean nothing at all and to downplay the success of Savage Worlds. I claim to be no expert yet when Pinnacle is not cutting back on publishing material for Savage Worlds and SJgames is for Gurps how can one have a discussion with a person who is in denial about the situation.

Thank you for posting the link to the third party list of successful Savage worlds kickstarters many I did not know about.

Quote from: sureshot;1079120If TFT does poorly or poorly for SJGames I'm not sure what it will mean for Gurps.

Even if we were to keep The Fantasy Trip limited to direct sales only -- through Kickstarter, Warehouse 23, and our own Amazon account -- the game would already be a success that justifies investing resources in more support. The three containers landed at our warehouse this week and will begin shipping to Kickstarter backers on Monday, while we also have:

* Adventures, a hardcover book that generated over $50,000 in support on Kickstarter (plus more in preorders and funding on BackerKit). The book is in the final stages and headed to print this month.
* Hexagram, a small zine we did when Kickstarter launched their Zine Quest campaign. Steve and the team had a blast working on this, and the project goes to print next week.
* Decks of Destiny, an upcoming Kickstarter campaign for cards . . . lots of cards. Cards are incredible resources for an RPG, we know how to print cards, and Steve's almost finished creating everything. We have no reason to expect anything but success from this project. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying/posts/2445417
* A not-yet-revealed book of monsters that Steve has finished writing . . . and now it is time for art.
* Other things in the works we're not yet ready to discuss.

We are also discussing the second printing of the Legacy Edition box and trying to determine where that best fits into our schedule. Late 2019? Early 2020? We don't know at the moment; we'll make a decision next month or in May.

The Fantasy Trip is doing amazing for us and we have a lot of support for the game in the works.

I'm glad to hear TFT is doing well. As SJGames needs and deserves all the successes they can get.

Quote from: sureshot;1079176I'm glad to hear TFT is doing well. As SJGames needs and deserves all the successes they can get.

Thank you. The response has been phenomenal, with the Kickstarter campaigns going well, the creative team completing work on schedule, and retailer response at the GAMA show this week better than we had expected. We have more projects in the works and plan to give the game all the support that it can handle for the foreseeable future.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1078946I'm in the same boat as Lurtch, I bought Savage Worlds, I wanted to like it, but I just don't get it. I've been told it has much in common with GURPS and HERO, but I'm not seeing that.

Not a case of I don't like it, just that it doesn't make sense to me. Probably one of those things where if there was an experienced group for me to join I could make some sense of the rules, but reading the book in a vacuum it goes nowhere.

  I think you have to play it.  I read it and it seemed goofy to me too.  Ran a few sessions with it, and the players got it very quickly and the bennies and drawing cards seems to really jazz up the flow of the game.  Runs combat and task resolution fast and easy.   I would say try a game out before you rest on your current judgement.

So why with TFT doing so well, does Gurps Dungeon Fantasy need to exist?  

While he's somewhat disgraced now, at the time I thought Ryan Dancey has a point about TSR and competing with itself with different game systems for the same genre. And in this case, TFT is one of the best FRPGs ever made, while GURPS is well, GURPS. It's like Marc Miller's strange insistence that people want his version of the reverse D6 system in his Traveller 4 and 5 (and presumably 6 and 7 and until he passes away), while most people love Classic Traveller (and Mongoose's updated Classic Traveller was very popular).

Quote from: JeremyR;1079294So why with TFT doing so well, does Gurps Dungeon Fantasy need to exist?  

Two completely different audences with, in our experience, minimal overlap. The market will tell us what type of support is best for each.

I'll be bringing in TFT when my distributor gets it in, and grabbing a copy for myself.  So that's 100% of a sample size of one.

I introduced my players to Illuminati last night, they had a blast.  TFT can fill the one shot roll very nicely.

They've added Amazon POD orders to the kickstarter to get it over that last hump. It's sad it didn't go faster but, the reality is that it's a thin little booklet and a reprint of a set that most of the fans already got.

Risking a derailing here.

If a guy wanted to get into The Fantasy Trip, what does he have to order beyond "In the Labyrinth"? Melee + Wizard? I'm headed into my FLGS today.

Quote from: Eisenmann;1079353Risking a derailing here.

If a guy wanted to get into The Fantasy Trip, what does he have to order beyond "In the Labyrinth"? Melee + Wizard? I'm headed into my FLGS today.

The game won't be in stores until late April.

The Legacy Edition box is the best if you're gonna go wild. Otherwise, start with just Melee and Wizard, either as the individual boxes or in the retro-inspired combined package.

https://thefantasytrip.game/products/core-games/the-fantasy-trip-legacy-edition/

Quote from: oggsmash;1079275I think you have to play it.  I read it and it seemed goofy to me too.  Ran a few sessions with it, and the players got it very quickly and the bennies and drawing cards seems to really jazz up the flow of the game.  Runs combat and task resolution fast and easy.   I would say try a game out before you rest on your current judgement.

You're probably right. There is a big difference in reading versus playing a game.

Dungeon Fantasy is $750 away from funding.

If every backer adds a dollar to their pledge, we're there!

Quote from: philreed;1079359The game won't be in stores until late April.

The Legacy Edition box is the best if you're gonna go wild. Otherwise, start with just Melee and Wizard, either as the individual boxes or in the retro-inspired combined package.

https://thefantasytrip.game/products/core-games/the-fantasy-trip-legacy-edition/

Thanks for the info, Phil. My FLGS is pretty great about being able to pre-order. I went with the Melee & Wizard pocket box, but I'm hoping that they get everything in.

It funded

Quote from: oggsmash;1079275I think you have to play it.  I read it and it seemed goofy to me too.  Ran a few sessions with it, and the players got it very quickly and the bennies and drawing cards seems to really jazz up the flow of the game.  Runs combat and task resolution fast and easy.   I would say try a game out before you rest on your current judgement.

That has been my assumption, I just haven't had the opportunity to play it.

I guess the question now is whether it's worth doing little booklets to reprint some of the hardbacks.   A collection of aliens of and/or vehicles when they reprint GURPS Space and Ultratech or some such.  I do think having the whole line, or at least the really core books like Magic, High Tech, Martial Arts, and Ultra Tech back in print would help GURPS regain some of its market position.

As far as material that exists that could be re-used fairly cheaply, GURPS Aliens, GURPS IST, and GURPS Cabal seem likely subjects.  I wonder if full color is really that much of a selling point for a reprint the main book kickstarter?  Would monsters 2 be as successful in black and white at twice the page count?

A Dungeon Fantasy style space opera or supers box doesn't seem likely.  The boxed set format is expensive to produce and it looks like SJG is being pretty cautious when it comes to GURPS.  I also expect small boxed sets aren't that much cheaper though they would be cool.  It also becomes an issue of looking too much like TFT.

I'd rather see some new content.  I'll always believe the absence of some form of vehicle book is a gaping hole in the line when it comes to doing science fiction.  At least we got Spaceships and some Pyramid articles (does anyone know which ones have the rules for wheeled and tracked vehicles)  A more complete and integrated book based on Spaceships might do it.  But I'd also love a book with lots of stats for real vehicles.  A WWII vehicle compendium would be great.  I'd still prefer an updated physics based system but I'm guessing simulating realistic vehicle movement on the table top isn't a priority for most people.

Quote from: David Johansen;1079477I do think having the whole line, or at least the really core books like Magic, High Tech, Martial Arts, and Ultra Tech back in print would help GURPS regain some of its market position.

All available right now for anyone who wants to order online:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ondemand/

We've also experimented with putting some of these into distribution over the last few years, but the demand was too low.

For those who may have missed one or both: two exciting new stretch goals have been announced, continuing the close support and relationship between SJG and Gaming Ballistic. SJG is thrilled the DFM2 and box set funded (and so am I!), and Gaming Ballistic is very pleased to see Nordvorn steaming towards stretch goals (and so is SJG!). To help each other along, check out these two new announcements!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn/posts/2449686

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warehouse23/powered-by-gurps-dungeon-fantasy-monsters-2-and-ga/posts/2449668

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Most of the retailers I know won't touch a game that was kickstarted because the demand is spent in the campaign and the interest has declined by the time it ships.  I was thinking that the model of the Monsters 2 kickstarter was a small book to fund an expensive reprint.  Not too much effort or investment with the main goal being the reprint.  Full color hard backs back in print. It's hard to say, the retail market lives and dies from month to month and there aren't many evergreen products these days.  The potential market could be much larger than the, very involved in on-line forums market.  I'm aware of a number of people who've come in looking for physical GURPS books that are playing, using illegal downloads.  I will be ordering some POD Amazon books next month to put on my store shelves as a service to people who have bought physical core books and are looking for more books. I'm already thinking I should have ordered more core books from SJG.  That said, I'm probably the only store in the world that runs GURPS three to five nights a week.  Though I'm honestly hoping to do a little more wargaming this year.

I do wonder at times if the sheer range of books is too daunting.  If, perhaps a GURPS Space that included some weapons, aliens, and vehicles as first edition did would have more appeal than needing to buy three books to do science fiction.  Not a condemnation of the existing books, just thinking about the current market and viability of print.  Of course, the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game does this to an extent, it's just that a series of boxed sets seems out of the question and one book Powered By Gurps titles seem to have not done well.

As far as the recent reprints of Space Ships and How To Be A GURPS GM, I sold the ones I got from my distributor and could sell more if I could only get them.  Again, a small, unique sample size.  I'd have ordered more but last year was pretty dismal, the local economy has resulted in a lot of closed up store fronts in this town.

Quote from: David Johansen;1079484As far as the recent reprints of Space Ships and How To Be A GURPS GM, I sold the ones I got from my distributor and could sell more if I could only get them.  Again, a small, unique sample size.  I'd have ordered more but last year was pretty dismal, the local economy has resulted in a lot of closed up store fronts in this town.

Those are still in our primary warehouse and available to distributors.

huh

When I did my direct order they only showed up as pdfs or I'd have ordered two of each.  I only got the shipment Friday and immediately sold one copy of Characters and Campaigns.  If things sell out pretty quickly I'll order again but I'm only getting about 20% on stuff I order direct from you so, if I can get things from my distributor I do, which is why there wasn't any Munchkin in that order.  That, at least, is easy to get my hands on.  But then distributors generally have to order things by the case and they're pretty gunshy about stocking things these days.

Quote from: David Johansen;1079491When I did my direct order they only showed up as pdfs or I'd have ordered two of each.

If you're referring to ordering from Warehouse 23, the printed books are not available there. Our primary warehouse, in Georgia, stocks the books for distribution sales.

Yeah, that'd be it.  Well, I'll see if I can get the distributor to bring them in for me.  Sometimes they think I'm crazy, like when I asked for more Modipius Star Trek books, need to work on my "seriously not crazy" phone voice I guess.  Does that mean there are other books, like, say Disc World, that might be available from your primary warehouse?  Because I could use a couple copies of Disc World.  I sold the one I got in and I'm pretty sure I could sell another if I ran it.  Money has to come before GURPS sometimes you know?  I do get that.

GURPS books available to distributors:

* GURPS BASIC SET Characters
* GURPS Low-Tech
* GURPS Horror 4e
* Discworld: Roleplaying Game
* GURPS Spaceships
* How to Be a GURPS GM

Horror but not Zombies?  Mars Attacks on Warehouse 23 but not for distributors?  Interesting, thanks, I'll talk to my distributor next time I order.  They get Munchkin stuff in all the time but haven't been restocking GURPS much lately, it doesn't even show up on their "available to order listing" :(

Really, they're doing better this year.  Last year they moved warehouses after a disastrous software update, lost a major contract, and it looked like they might be on their last legs.  I have the worst luck with distributors, at least they didn't get Alzheimer's, retire and die like my first distributor.

Quote from: David Johansen;1079517Horror but not Zombies?  Mars Attacks on Warehouse 23 but not for distributors?

Not all titles remain in print. Also, some titles may be down to the last few cases and no longer available to distributors.

We work to keep the top-selling games and expansions available, but those with a lower rate of sale that sell through are not often reprinted. It just isn't worth the risk in the current market.

Which distributor do you use?

hmmm...that's a discussion I think I'll take to private messages.  Not that I'm known for my discretion or level head but naming names tends to draw attention.

Quote from: philreed;1079516GURPS books available to distributors:

* GURPS BASIC SET Characters
* GURPS Low-Tech
* GURPS Horror 4e
* Discworld: Roleplaying Game
* GURPS Spaceships
* How to Be a GURPS GM

No BASIC SET Adventures, so no current way to distribute the actual rules to play GURPS?

If not, that seems like a pretty fundamental issue...

Quote from: DouglasCole;1079483For those who may have missed one or both: two exciting new stretch goals have been announced, continuing the close support and relationship between SJG and Gaming Ballistic. SJG is thrilled the DFM2 and box set funded (and so am I!), and Gaming Ballistic is very pleased to see Nordvorn steaming towards stretch goals (and so is SJG!). To help each other along, check out these two new announcements!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn/posts/2449686

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warehouse23/powered-by-gurps-dungeon-fantasy-monsters-2-and-ga/posts/2449668

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A condensed version of your grappling rules for GURPS is about the most interesting-to-me GURPS release in recent memory, and one I'm liable to get more use of than anything in the DFRPG. Ironic to me that it's a stretch goal...

Quote from: Eisenmann;1079353Risking a derailing here.

If a guy wanted to get into The Fantasy Trip, what does he have to order beyond "In the Labyrinth"? Melee + Wizard? I'm headed into my FLGS today.

I think the more accurate answer to this question is:

What a GM needs to get into The Fantasy Trip as an RPG is simply In The Labyrinth, and to have or make a hex map and counters or minis from somewhere. And 3 to 6 six-sided dice, and pencils and paper.

Melee + Wizard have some limited hex maps and some counters, but offer almost nothing that isn't in In The Labyrinth in a more developed form. They are, however, excellent starting tools for learning the combat and magic system (without the rest of the RPG), and more counters and maps are always nice. But you don't need them.

They don't come with any adventures, though. q.v. Death Test (programmed adventures), Tollenkar's Lair (GM'd adventures), the new GM'd adventures, etc.

Quote from: Skarg;1079590No BASIC SET Adventures, so no current way to distribute the actual rules to play GURPS?

If not, that seems like a pretty fundamental issue...

If you mean the Campaigns book: News. http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/March_08_2019/GURPS_Basic_Set_Campaigns_Low_Stock

Also, experience shows that the books currently in the supply chain will last for months.

Quote from: Skarg;1079590BASIC SET Adventures

You know?  That's actually an interesting notion.  When you look at the D&D adventures these days they're about 1/3 setting, 1/3 scenario, and 1/3 crunch like monsters or spells.  I think that's interesting given the long held belief that adventures don't sell.  I'm not quite sure what that'd look like for GURPS.  A little more planned scenario in the mix, I guess but what about adventures for GURPS Lite even?  Put in enough rules to run the stuff it doesn't contain.  Yeah, I'm still not quite sure what it'd look like.  Much as I'd like a GURPS Medium that strips out the cinematic and supernatural stuff, GURPS Lite actually already does that.  People complain about removing the tiny bit of magic in the original version.  Maybe a decompressed GURPS lite that doubles the page count without increasing the content plus the Basic Set magic rules?  Ah well, anyhow Savage Worlds plot point books (are they still doing those) are basically set up as 1/3 setting, 1/3 scenario, and 1/3 crunch.  Maybe it's a good format.  The scenario isn't much use once you've run it a couple times.  From a reference stand point it's a pain to go shuffling through half a dozen books to find that advantage you wanted.

Quote from: David Johansen;1079628Ah well, anyhow Savage Worlds plot point books (are they still doing those) are basically set up as 1/3 setting, 1/3 scenario, and 1/3 crunch. Maybe it's a good format. The scenario isn't much use once you've run it a couple times. From a reference stand point it's a pain to go shuffling through half a dozen books to find that advantage you wanted.

I don't think those ratios line up for my Last Parsec Books. I spend $25 for a 96 page hard cover. It's like 1/10th crunch, 3/10 setting material, 3/10 plot point campaign, 1/10 adventures, and 2/10 bestiary.

Quote from: philreed;1079597If you mean the Campaigns book: News. http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/March_08_2019/GURPS_Basic_Set_Campaigns_Low_Stock

Also, experience shows that the books currently in the supply chain will last for months.

Oh cool, yeah, I did mean the Campaigns book.

Quote from: David Johansen;1079628You know?  That's actually an interesting notion.  When you look at the D&D adventures these days they're about 1/3 setting, 1/3 scenario, and 1/3 crunch like monsters or spells.  I think that's interesting given the long held belief that adventures don't sell.  I'm not quite sure what that'd look like for GURPS.  A little more planned scenario in the mix, I guess but what about adventures for GURPS Lite even?  Put in enough rules to run the stuff it doesn't contain.  Yeah, I'm still not quite sure what it'd look like.  Much as I'd like a GURPS Medium that strips out the cinematic and supernatural stuff, GURPS Lite actually already does that.  People complain about removing the tiny bit of magic in the original version.  Maybe a decompressed GURPS lite that doubles the page count without increasing the content plus the Basic Set magic rules?  Ah well, anyhow Savage Worlds plot point books (are they still doing those) are basically set up as 1/3 setting, 1/3 scenario, and 1/3 crunch.  Maybe it's a good format.  The scenario isn't much use once you've run it a couple times.  From a reference stand point it's a pain to go shuffling through half a dozen books to find that advantage you wanted.

Ideas generated from forgetting a name, using the wrong word, and mis-readings by others can create new great ideas...

Yes, I think there has usually been a big gap in GURPS offerings that could be filled by more products that let people play more or less immediately. GURPS is a really good game to play with a good prepared GM, but it takes experience to become a good GURPS GM, and it takes a lot of prep to be ready to play. But a product could do most of that work. There have been a few - Orcslayer and the GURPS Conan programmed adventures come to mind, but Orcslayer was the second GURPS book and doesn't even support non-physical/combat skills because they hadn't been written yet, and the Conan adventures are Conan, only a few products, and don't come with maps and counters. I think ready-to-play adventures (including counters and maps and character sheets that only show the needed stats (don't even show character points) could go a long way to making GURPS easy to get into. Heck, just publishing a GURPS version of Death Test 1 & 2...

Quote from: Skarg;1079591A condensed version of your grappling rules for GURPS is about the most interesting-to-me GURPS release in recent memory, and one I'm liable to get more use of than anything in the DFRPG. Ironic to me that it's a stretch goal...

It's a stretch goal to put a copy in every boxed set in this print run. The book will happen no matter what. It should - it's been basically done for months.

Citadel and DFM2 Stretch Goals: Falling Fast! (https://gamingballistic.com/2019/03/19/citadel-at-nordvorn-stretch-goals-falling-fast/)

This week brings to a close the week of blatantly shilling for the Dungeon Fantasy RPG Kickstarters. Both Citadel at Nordvorn and the Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 2 and Boxed Set Reprint campaigns end this weekend, with  DFM2 closing tomorrow (Friday), and Citadel coming to an end on Sunday. Both funded and passed at least one stretch goal, and Citadel - which had fewer to begin with - is on the cusp of passing another.

Thursday is GURPSDay! March 15 to March 21, 2019 (https://gamingballistic.com/2019/03/21/thursday-is-gurpsday-march-15-to-march-21-2019/)

https://gamingballistic.com/2019/03/22/20000-stretch-goal-pillaged-also-check-your-pledges-and-add-ons/

We just pillaged the $20,000 stretch goal for 128 pages. This makes me happy. Not the least reason for which is the unfinished draft lays out at 115 pages on a 112-page budget. So . . . I don't  have to cut anything. Thank you all for making this my strongest Kickstarter ever.

As both Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 2 and The Citadel at Nordvorn enter their final hours (fewer than 12 for DFM2, about 60 as I type this for Nordvorn), it's time to check and see if what you've got listed is really what you want, and (if it's not) push the proejct to the offset print run by adding what you want NOW rather than in Backerkit.

Quote from: DouglasCole;1080266We just pillaged the $20,000 stretch goal for 128 pages. This makes me happy. Not the least reason for which is the unfinished draft lays out at 115 pages on a 112-page budget. So . . . I don't  have to cut anything. Thank you all for making this my strongest Kickstarter ever.

Congratulations and good luck!

New Final Stretch Goal: Hall of Judgment 2nd Edition($35,000)


As we enter the final two days of the Citadel at Nordvorn (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn) campaign, it has become clear that the "best we can do" figure is significantly in excess of the prior goal for the campaign at $30,000.

After thinking about it for a bit, I know what to do. At 35,000, I will get a reprint of Hall of Judgment done in the same style and quality as the offset run for Citadel at Norðvorn (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn). Sewn and lay-flat binding. Heavy paper (100-105#, or 150-157gsm).

The new printing will include all of the new battle-maps done by Glynn Seal for the 2nd Edition of Lost Hall of Tyr (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/lost-hall-of-tyr-2nd-edition-maps-and-print-run), so the basic file is already done. If we hit this goal, everyone that already has a PDF of Hall of Judgment will get it upgraded to the new edition at no cost.

New maps?

Yes.

The new images show a lot more custom detail, all done by award-winning cartographer Glynn Seal (who has a Kickstarter of his own (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/monkeyblooddesign/the-city-of-great-lunden?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=greatlunden) going on right now). He did the maps of Logiheimli in Hall of Judgment, and he's doing the maps in Citadel (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn).

You can see the new maps in this blog post on GB (https://gamingballistic.com/2019/03/23/citadel-final-stretch-goal-hall-of-judgment-2nd-edition-35000/).

If we hit the new goal, Hall of Judgment will have the maps inserted into the art spaces where the old maps were; I'll look into what it would take to get full-page maps in the back of the book as well, but no promises on that . . . it's already a full book and I'd need to add 16 pages to make it work.

But I'm not saying no either.

Regardless, a digital map pack will be available as well (HoJ PDF purchasers in the past may already have it; I uploaded it to Backerkit a while ago and sent it out).

"And That's All I Have to Say About That" (-F. Gump)

Wow. What a campaign. A potential offset print. Maybe a 144-page version of Citadel. Fantastic Dungeon Grappling in the boxed set itself (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/warehouse23/powered-by-gurps-dungeon-fantasy-monsters-2-and-ga/posts/2452945) (pinch me!), and contemplating awesome reprints of my old books.

No question: you guys are awesome.

However . . . to get the Big Goals, we need Big Conversion.

That means popping into Forum threads like these and commenting. A word from a backer goes so much further than a word from the creator. One is an endorsement; the other is spam. You know it, I know it, so I need your help:

• Wow: A GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Boxed Set (RPG.net) (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wow-a-gurps-dungeon-fantasy-boxset.788803/page-99)
  
• GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Is NOT A Failure (theRPGsite.com) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40259-GURPS-Dungeon-Fantasy-Is-NOT-A-Failure/page25)
  
• That GURPS Thread (Also Includes The Fantasy Trip) (theRPGpub.com) (https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/that-gurps-thread-also-includes-the-fantasy-trip.2049/page-9)
  
• Nordlond: The Citadel at Nordvorn (the SJG Forums) (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=161811&page=7)
  
• New monsters book for Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?657762-New-monsters-book-for-Dungeon-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Game/page3)
  

There's also Social Media - tweet, facebook, etc. I'll be repeating this announcement in a blog post over at Gaming Ballistic, and that will show up at @GMingBallistic on Twitter, the Gaming Ballistic page on Facebook, and on my page and account on MeWe (and if you're looking for ALL the places to find me on the net, go here and you can see them all (https://gamingballistic.com/2018/11/16/admin-gaming-ballistic-on-the-web/)).

We have 36 hours (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn).

I'm extremely happy for DFRPG this month.  I hope we see more like it!

Quote from: Highland Piper;1080512I'm extremely happy for DFRPG this month.  I hope we see more like it!

Son of a gun. We did it! So offset print it is. And with all of the Viking Raider pledges, I think I might need another batch of Hall of Judgment as well!

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Thanks for everyone who's jumped in so vigorously. Even beyond that, this is nearly 50% more funding than Hall of Judgment, and that only had 525 backers.


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The Kickstarter for the Powered-by-GURPS licensed adventure, The Citadel at Norðvorn (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn), is in its final three hours. We just passed the stretch goal that includes an offset print run, which will see the book with a sewn, lay-flat binding and printed on 100-105# matte paper.


In the icy north of the realm, the dwarf-hewn fortress of Norðvörn anchors the defenses that ward against the predation of dragonkin and faerie alike. Three generations of relative quiet in the region have lulled the northerners and their defenders into a sense of stable peace.

That is about to change. Norðvorn needs your help.

The Citadel at Norðvorn (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn) is a licensed setting for the Dungeon Fantasy RPG. It consists of three major settlements, many small villages, at least one ruin, and two primary sources of conflict: The Hunted Lands to the northwest of The Palisade, and the Endalaus Forest, to the north and east of Audreyn's Wall. Plus the lure of the endless wealth and magical treasure still lost in the Dragongrounds.

Within the book, find:

• Detailed descriptions of Norðvorn and two important towns. Important locations and personalities. Culture and festivals. Places to live and shop.
• Motivations and goals for key factions: the Wardens of Norðvorn, Faerie, Dragonkin, and foul fiends from Muspelheim and their human servitors.
• The ruins of Elskadr, whose destruction woke threats from the dragonkin, and mystical forces long dormant.
• Key NPCs and supporting cast, a bestiary, and an "instant village generator" for travel between towns.
• This setting is easily portable to any game world needing a "wild Northmen" feel.

So go visit Norðvorn (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn): Chaos is waiting for you.

The Citadel at Nordvorn (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn) funded over a week ago, and just passed it's major stretch goal to deliver the offset print run! Back it now and push it farther! If you missed the prior work, Hall of Judgment, there's a "Viking Raider" level starting at $65 that also includes that book. There's also "Fantastic Dungeon Grappling" and other goodness on there.

Check it out! But don't wait too long (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamingballistic/the-citadel-at-norvorn), the project closes at 10pm Central Time!

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