Quote from: estar;1078722I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.

I think this played a large part in the downturn of both GURPS and HERO. In both cases there were concessions made towards attracting new players, pretty hard cover books being a major one that added to the cost and page count. Both included some significant and controversial changes, several of which skewed towards the other (you got some GURPS in my HERO) which alienated some of the current fans. Both ended up in recreating a lot of existing material which was not seen as a necessary expense for the existing fan base.

I wasn't as active with GURPS so I'm not sure how the rules changes went over, from my perspective most were of the optional type (Super skills) rather than major changes to the base system. HERO made some significant rule changes which seem to have been of the love it or hate it variety.

The hard cover full color books added significantly to the buy in, both hovering in the $80 range for the Core rules. HERO stumbled badly on the follow up as most of the 6th ed supplements were little changed from the fairly recent (most only 2-4 years old) 5th edition versions, so the existing fan base really had little reason to buy into anything beyond the core rules except for the most rabid collector / fan.

GURPS at least had time on its side, the various 4th ed supplemental books (magic, high tech etc) were substantial rewrites of often decade + old 3rd edition books making a repurchase more attractive for the existing fan base.

Neither game seems to have found much success growing a significantly larger fan base, and both lost some of their existing player base who decided not to follow the new edition.

Both games had a sizable player base clamoring for a simpler entry point. HERO eventually offered the Complete line, but that seems to have come well after the horses were out of the barn (3 or 4 years after the release of 6th ed and the decline of the companies fortune). GURPS has offered Dungeon Fantasy, and now has The Fantasy Trip to serve as a lighter weight "GURPS" fantasy.


Basic Role Playing has also seen a similar request. It isn't so much easier rules, as less complex options, generic game settings with many options to fit different settings can be confusing to new GMs. What most seem to be asking for with the major generic game systems isn't easier rules so much as products that provide a setting and show the GM which options they should be using.

Perhaps 'alternatives' would be a better term than 'competitors'.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1078769...What most seem to be asking for with the major generic game systems isn't easier rules so much as products that provide a setting and show the GM which options they should be using.

It is both. Easier rules, and a setting; preferably in one complete game.

Savage worlds is a trimmed down version of the old deadlands rules set.

And then pinnacle went out of it's way to ensure that there were plenty of "complete" games for their in house rules.

Trimmed down does not = Fate/Fudge levels of "rules Lite".

GURPS and HERO cannot do just one thing to turn their respective ships around.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078770Perhaps 'alternatives' would be a better term than 'competitors'.

I believe that all have accepted their 'Alternative' status now, and are happy in their niche.

In the late 70's, early 80's, it wasn't as obvious as it is now that toppling D&D was mission impossible.

But it is interesting that no one put out a single game, that looking in hindsight, could have given D&D a run for its money...

Quote from: Jaeger;1078776It is both. Easier rules, and a setting; preferably in one complete game.

Savage worlds is a trimmed down version of the old deadlands rules set.

And then pinnacle went out of it's way to ensure that there were plenty of "complete" games for their in house rules.

Trimmed down does not = Fate/Fudge levels of "rules Lite".

GURPS and HERO cannot do just one thing to turn their respective ships around.

With Kevin Seimbeda helping them become even more popular by allowing them to convert a recognizable IP such as Rifts. Pinnalce had Deadlands yet for some not interested in the Western elements of that rpg. Both were well known rpg IPs in the industry though Rifts imo was more well known. Now they have Rifts and gamers who swore never to touch it again because of the PB set of rules like the conversion and want more. The only gamers in the hobby who seem to dislike are I say even hate it or are the Palladium grognards and purists. I think the idea was beyond much needed cash for PB was to get more people to buy other Rifts titles to complement the missing background elements. Instead due to many mistakes, issues with PB as well as a general dislike for the rules gamers would rather wait for more SW material.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078770Perhaps 'alternatives' would be a better term than 'competitors'.

Like the term or not Savage Worlds and Fate are competitors to Gurps and Hero Games. I can use the term alternatives yet those same alternatives to Gurps and Hero System are still more popular.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078776But it is interesting that no one put out a single game, that looking in hindsight, could have given D&D a run for its money...

Who knew that D&D would be as popular or that those in the hobby truly wanted a generic set of rules. When I played 1E back in the mid-1980s my first thought was " this rpg is too limiting wish their was a generic rpg that did it all and more" instead it was "see you next session for D&D".

Well, D&D is not nearly as popular in Germany as it is in the States, so that shows how path-dependent the standing of a RPG can be.

What are you basing your opinion that Savage Worlds and Fate are more popular than GURPS?

One thing I wonder is why they timed two kickstarters right on top of each other.  Don't they kind of eat each other's tail?  The third party one is just about funded but it's entirely new content.  I'd like to back both but with needing to bring in a bunch of books I'm not so sure I can right now.  Maybe a couple bucks for the adventure.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078786One thing I wonder is why they timed two kickstarters right on top of each other.  Don't they kind of eat each other's tail?  The third party one is just about funded but it's entirely new content.  I'd like to back both but with needing to bring in a bunch of books I'm not so sure I can right now.  Maybe a couple bucks for the adventure.

I think the idea was they'd both support each other. Doug's jist funded and I am sure both will end up funding.  I haven't looked into if that's a good idea or not.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078785What are you basing your opinion that Savage Worlds and Fate are more popular than GURPS?

Fate had a brief stint in the top 5. Where it's now I can't tell.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078790Fate had a brief stint in the top 5. Where it's now I can't tell.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present

What's interesting is that GURPS was in the top 5 on there and was #3 for a while after 4E launched.

I think a big thorn in GURPS side now is the lack of published adventures. Prior to DFRPG that was very difficult to develop because no two GURPS games are the same. I do think if SJ Games had Dungeon Fantasy, Action, Space Opera, and Horror boxed sets and had a third party publishers program they'd be able to really grow. It gives a baseline for the most popular genres of games for people to sell into and support and it plays to GURPS strength of being able to simulate so many types of games.

I don't know which game is more popular, but I am focusing on SWADE now vs. GURPS. I still love GURPS, but I need a less... finicky... master. Also, GURPS books are useful with any game and the Encyclopedia GURPSia is written in RPG nerd, so that's a bonus.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078776GURPS and HERO cannot do just one thing to turn their respective ships around..

Turning the ship around for Gurps is doable. New production values would go a long way, and by that  don't mean "sprucing up what you've got" but rather firing your entire in-house design team and replacing them with fresh talent. You don't even need to redo any rules, just take a chainsaw to the endless lists. Get rid of the "cup stacking" skills, the "college catalog" skills, and start unifying some of the disads. "Compulsive Behavior, 5, 10, or 15 points" and "Annoying Personality Trait, 5, 10, or 15 points" guts about 33% of the disad text. No one cares about the definition of Zoology or the difference between Greed and Miserliness.

Sadly, I don't think there's hope for Hero. There's complexity in the core mechanics which causes cascade failure if deleted (i.e. if you delete the Speed Chart, you mess up Flash Attacks. If you delete END, you mess up Charges. Etc.) Deleting Killing Damage and switching to one damage scale invalidates every other NPC stat block. The core power rules alone are 98 pages, and that's without examples. You could make a "Hero Lite" without powers (sort of like how Gurps Lite has no magic) but at that point, you can't run 80% of most genres.

But who knows? Everyone thought Hero was dead with Fuzion, and it came back as 5E. And when they thought that was dead, it came back with 6E, which IMO is the best version yet. Maybe 7E will be called the "Unexpected Phoenix Edition."

Quote from: trechriron;1078801I don't know which game is more popular, but I am focusing on SWADE now vs. GURPS. I still love GURPS, but I need a less... finicky... master. Also, GURPS books are useful with any game and the Encyclopedia GURPSia is written in RPG nerd, so that's a bonus.

I cannot wrap my head around Savage Worlds because the system doesn't make sense. GURPS makes sense. I love the Savage World settings and I wish GURPS would treat their system more like that

Quote from: Lurtch;1078785What are you basing your opinion that Savage Worlds and Fate are more popular than GURPS?

Unlike SJGames who is cutting back on Gurps support to focus on more profitable products. Savage Worlds not only successfully kickstarted Savage Rifts. It was successful enough that they will publish more. Popularity equals more profits and companies that are run properly do not waste money on products that do not sell. Evil Hat Productions the devs that own Fate are cutting back on their releases not because of a lack of popularitry growing too big too fast with too many rpgs and not enough that are popular while not having the resources to really work on all of them at once.

Or are you going to ask the same question again in two three pages later on in the thread. This is what the second or third time you asked this question.  I notice how you ignore that SJGames is cutting back on publishing more Gurps material yet keep asking over and over why we think Savage worlds and Hero System is more popular. I even showed it with their own Sharehold report. Those report doe not exist goes against the narrative.

Yet I'm the one who is an idiot, can't read and is arguing in bad faith. Pretend to be dumb all you like your not fooling anyone with that bullshit. As usual it's about the narrative. Gurps is still popular. SJGAmes has not cut back on publishing new material the more popular alternatives are definitely not more popular than Gurps. As I said can't wait to be asked a fourth or fifth time how myself and others can claim that Savage Worlds and Fate is more popular than Gurps.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078515Gurps doesn't need it's current fans. They aren't paying the bills by SJG own admission.

 It needs new ones who will buy product.

marketing to just existing fans is what has led them and Hero games on their current RPG death spiral...

1: SJG has made that claim before.

2: Then make new product that the existing fans will buy sell the current edition to new fans so everyone is on the same page rather than create another divide.

3: Except they havent marketed to existing fans in how many years? It was close to a decade before Ogre and Car Wars saw reprints. When was the last time they put out a new expansion or substantial setting book for Gurps?