Quote from: Jaeger;1078638No one is saying that a niche cannot be supported. Rolemaster is still around. I'm sure it has fans.

But as far as the larger hobby is concerned, its days of relevance are long past.

Rolemaster fan here, though not actively playing or buying it.  I think the gong show at ICE is as big a part of that as anything.  Still, they have a lot of digital ERA support and a new edition in the works.  I suspect they'll move towards a digital platform that automates the book keeping and chart flipping. Could become the first game that's fully set up to GM with just your cell phone.  I wouldn't count them out.  Nicholas Caldwell is a smart guy but he's had a real Gordanian Knot to untangle ranging from rights owned by freelancers who didn't get paid during the bankruptcy to a really volatile fan base divide.

I think the format of 4th edition is really the biggest obstacle.  But bear in mind that at the time, churning out splat books was still the standard business model in the industry.  In hindsight a bit bigger evergreen core might have worked better.  That key books like Magic, Martial Arts, and Ultratech are out of print is a real problem right now.  I suspect (based on the books still being available in print) that world building guides like Fantasy and Space were less popular.  D&D 5e's model where they put new spells and monsters in adventures to make them more desirable might have worked better in the market we got.  Who could have foreseen the d20 boom and glut and bust?  One core book.  Magic, Technology (including vehicles), Martial Arts, and Powers might have been a better core.  It's hard to say.  I think moving away from the one book core format was a mistake.  Maybe?  Anyone got a time machine?

Quote from: estar;1078722I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.

This. This is where I'm at.

I can speak somewhat to what did the Hero System in.  

First, the "Fuzion" disaster created some ill will and lost momentum at a bad time for the game.

Second, and much more complicated is the rest of this post.

My slant is that the twin appeals of Hero have historically been:

A. I can run any game I want with it (with the usual caveat of "as long as I don't mind it being like Hero" and "with a whiff of superhero" thrown in.).
B. The system is significantly elegant in practice, given that scope.

(And as a counterpart, though much less experienced with GURPs, I'd say it hits a different target in the next ballpark, focused more on grit and trading hyper-pursuit of elegance for much more supporting material.)

For me, circa 1987, with a very limited budget and a wide range of games to run, point A carried a lot of weight.  It did with a wide range of players that wanted to participate in my games, too.  Point B was why it worked.  Today, my limited time is more focused on the specific things I want to run now, rather than all of them.  And if I do want to run something specific, there is a good chance that a game is available that will do that thing.  (As it happens, I don't much want to, but others do.)

Along comes the fight leading up to 4th edition, where there is the Steve Long faction and the opposition.  These could be crudely but somewhat accurately described as:

1. Hero needs more stuff in the toolkit while tweaking things around an unchanged core.
2. Hero needs even more elegance by fixing a few fundamental problems.

Long won, and what we got was 5E, that didn't simplify anything (of any consequence), and made the product even larger and more inaccessible to those who didn't already know it.  Also leached out a great deal of the flavor in the process.  Yeah, it was better organized than 4th, and fixed a few things.  This was somewhat akin to the change from AD&D 1E to 2E.  Once they got it organized, and it didn't sell very well, they started to consider that maybe the other camp had some insights.  However, at that point they'd gone so far with the stuff, that removing the derived values and other pieces of "more elegance" were even more difficult to do.  In effect, 5E caused the "elegance" crowd to give up on the game, while 6E was too little, too late to win them back--and managed to piss off a few of the people that had agreed with the direction of 5E in the first place.

I was always in the "more elegance" crowd on the grounds that about 90% of the trouble in Hero was caused by 10% of the rules, that had never been really designed but just hung around from a superhero focus, and never quite fitted into the wider system.  However, fixing those properly could only be done in a new edition, because that 10% touched a lot of the rest of the system.  And that while I didn't personally place that much emphasis on "more stuff", that if you removed or replaced that 10%, any new stuff would be easier to provide and more well received once you did.

The core question here is: how do you rate the success (or lack of it) of a product separate from its marketing? In the case of RPG systems that's hard to tell. How do you know the product has to change versus the marketing?

Quote from: sureshot;1078721It has nothing to do that it can do much of what Gurps and Hero Systems does with less complexity and crunchiness.

Well, that is a claim I would be extremely hesitant to make - for it shifts the burden of proof from the other side ("Okay, what can GURPS do better?!") to you. Btw, I'm not discounting that you might be right about people moving away from more complex games. But it's not necessarily comparable to "technological progress" from which there is no turning back - it might just be fashion, which is prone to change. Especially in entertainment.

Beyond that I would suggest to anyone avoiding inevitability - it's too easy to come across as politics along the lines of "Hillary has a 97% chance of becoming the next president." Trying to wish something into existence or to create the public perception of alleged inevitability.

sureshot, I know you're functionally illiterate but go back and read the stakeholder report one more time. 10% of the items in the top 40 are for GURPS! 4 GURPS products, including their 6th best selling product. Do you know how to read beyond a first grade level. Based on your posting here I don't know if you do. We know you're stupid. Is it the words you have an issue with and the reason you need simple games? Is doing basic math too complex? Try Prince Valiant it just requires coin flips.

Your entire post is bullshit. You think you're smart but you're really fucking dumb. Everybody knows that SJ Games makes their nut with Munchkin and their board games. The entire hobby industry is basically about selling board games now. RPGs only bring in about $55 million in revenue and D&D is more than 90% of that. All the other RPG companies fight over about $5 million in revenue.

Sureshot, because you are having such a bad faith discussion I'll help you out: nothing SJ Games can do will bring enough significant revenue to justify the opportunity cost. SJ Games has GURPS lite and it's free. I think a GURPS Continuing Lite would be another good product to add (and I said so above but you ignored it because you're too fucking stupid to breathe). I want the 3PP program so folks can use the game engine to do a lot of different things without having to have SJ Games look at the resources they have and where their revenue comes from and decide that the resources are better spent on another munchkin product or board game.

The biggest headwind that the DFRPG faced was management mistakes not market failure.  They didn't budget the time and resources properly and they didn't have their supply chain model done correctly. It came in over cost and behind schedule. The market wanted it. If they could have not had those errors it would have been a tremendous success.

Here is what GURPS has had: Douglas Cole has successfully had two kickstartersa for DFRPG content and he has others planned for this year. We have the reprint and the Monsters 2 book currently on KS.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078727The core question here is: how do you rate the success (or lack of it) of a product separate from its marketing? In the case of RPG systems that's hard to tell. How do you know the product has to change versus the marketing?

Having some experience with this from being with the OSR from its beginning in the mid 2000s.

Success is a variety of works that are produced on a regular schedule with a nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form done at a profit to cover overhead and expenses for the next project.

Because overhead and expenses have tumbled due to digital technology is possible to accomplish this using the time and budget one has for a hobby.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078723Rolemaster fan here, though not actively playing or buying it.  I think the gong show at ICE is as big a part of that as anything.  Still, they have a lot of digital ERA support and a new edition in the works.  I suspect they'll move towards a digital platform that automates the book keeping and chart flipping. Could become the first game that's fully set up to GM with just your cell phone.  I wouldn't count them out.  Nicholas Caldwell is a smart guy but he's had a real Gordanian Knot to untangle ranging from rights owned by freelancers who didn't get paid during the bankruptcy to a really volatile fan base divide.

I think the format of 4th edition is really the biggest obstacle.  But bear in mind that at the time, churning out splat books was still the standard business model in the industry.  In hindsight a bit bigger evergreen core might have worked better.  That key books like Magic, Martial Arts, and Ultratech are out of print is a real problem right now.  I suspect (based on the books still being available in print) that world building guides like Fantasy and Space were less popular.  D&D 5e's model where they put new spells and monsters in adventures to make them more desirable might have worked better in the market we got.  Who could have foreseen the d20 boom and glut and bust?  One core book.  Magic, Technology (including vehicles), Martial Arts, and Powers might have been a better core.  It's hard to say.  I think moving away from the one book core format was a mistake.  Maybe?  Anyone got a time machine?

the two core books back in 2004 seemed like a great idea. It seemed like an even better idea in like 2002 when they started writing the books. I don't think folks in the early 2000's thought about how much World of Warcraft would eat everybody's lunch, the death of the OGL boom that happened with 3.x, and Wizards of the Coast launching 4E that almost killed the fucking industry in 2008.

I think those books are still in print via POD at Amazon. They have a huge list of them and I'm pretty sure those books are on there. I just think that the RPG hobby peaked in the 90's and it isn't coming back to that level, for the industry as a whole, and we will see D&D boom and bust but it is large enough and has a big enough name to keep going.

For me, I don't think it is about GURPS trying to compete with the more simple and less complex games that are out there. I don't think the average Savage Worlds player is going to be interested in GURPS just because GURPS comes out with an expanded GURPS Lite product line or SJ Games launches GURPS medium. I almost think that SJ Games should follow the Goodman Game's route. And, keep in mind after the launch of D&D 4E, Joseph Goodman was thinking about getting out of the business altogether because of the cluster fuck that is 4E.

DFRPG simplifies GURPS (I don't think Sureshot has a clue what DFRPG actually is) and I think it's s important to keep that line well supported with physical product. I like the POD model as well. It seems that SJ Games has the most success with DFRPG, Action!, Monster Hunters, etc. using the GURPGS toolkit to do the heavy lifting for players. I think most of us agree that the GURPS engine is good. The issues I've had is that if you're a new to GURPS player and have only played D&D and I give you the GURPS rulebooks (campaigns and characters) you really won't know what to do, how to build it, and how to go. If I give you the DFRPG box or an Action! Boxed set, it isn't that hard for a new player or something wanting something simpler to get up and running quickly.

I also think the KS model works better with boxed sets like DFRPG. I think if SJ Games launched another KS to fund Action! The boxed set or Monster Hunter, they'd have another six figure KS. I think where 3PP comes in is that it is much easier for the Douglas Coles of the world or the estar's of the world to product quality content on a much lighter budget than it is for SJ Games because their manpower is limited and they have to make sure they keep the lights on. Dr Kromm can only do so much.

So summing up: my three prong approach: Keep GURPS Lite in print and have a "continued" light product line. Use the boxed sets as GURPS medium, and then have full GURPS for the core audience that wants the toolkit. Don't come out with a 5th edition that does away with what the core audience likes. Just use the engine to power these "simpler" and easier to get up and running products. This also creates away for folks that get started with one boxed set to easily jump into another and already know how the game works. It creates a bridge to the core rulebooks.

Quote from: estar;1078722I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.

Good points though if change nothing and maintain the status quo is the goal than it will not get better for SJGames and Hero Games. As doing nothing but minimal changes and only offering their rpgs to their core audience and only them is why both companies rpgs are hurting in the first place. It's all good to say don't cater to the majority of the hobby. As long as the core audience is large enough to support the rpg on their own and from the looks of it they are not. Again no solutions beyond change nothing and hope the situation gets better while doing nothing to improve the worsening situation. 3pp is one way to go and I hope it pans out.

I'm trying to view this not as an ex-Gurps fan and more someone looking in and so far I'm not seeing any willingness on the Gurps fanbase to try and save it. The trend is for more rules light and less crunch screw that it won't work. Why should SJGames cater to a larger group after all Gurps is doing just fine. Not many here want to acknowledge the elephant in the room where SJGames feels that Gurps is not profitable and it's not even something they will really put much effort into. Maybe in 5-10 years and hoping their rules light less crunch competition screws up in a big way. Most fans are not going to waste that much time waiting and will move eroding the current fanbase further.

It's all to say their is no magic bullet and their is not. Yet when rules light less crunch systems are more profitable and keep releasing new material. Well some here want solutions that amount to do nothing and hope that things get better for SJGames. Hope does not pay the bills money does. Yes those who want a rules light less crunchy version of Gurps realize it's a risk that might hurt rather than help Gurps. Yet it's not really healthy as it is anyway. Better to do something than nothing at all.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728sureshot, I know you're functionally illiterate but go back and read the stakeholder report one more time. 10% of the items in the top 40 are for GURPS! 4 GURPS products, including their 6th best selling product. Do you know how to read beyond a first grade level. Based on your posting here I don't know if you do. We know you're stupid. Is it the words you have an issue with and the reason you need simple games? Is doing basic math too complex? Try Prince Valiant it just requires coin flips.

Four out of 40 products that is published by SJGames is not a indicator of success for Gurps. So i made a mistake about Dungeon Fantasy. While backing up that SJGames considers Gurps non-profitable to the point that it's not a priority. I can admit to making mistakes. Your the one that kept asking for proof that Gurps was not profitable. I showed it you. You tried to imply we did not know what we were talking about the lack of profitability about Gurps. I went to SJGames site and showed others. Don't get pissed at me or butthurt when your proven wrong.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728Your entire post is bullshit. You think you're smart but you're really fucking dumb. Everybody knows that SJ Games makes their nut with Munchkin and their board games. The entire hobby industry is basically about selling board games now. RPGs only bring in about $55 million in revenue and D&D is more than 90% of that. All the other RPG companies fight over about $5 million in revenue.

Nice yet failed attempt at a dodge and moving goalposts. No one here ever said that Munchkin was a failure or that SJGames boardgames were as well. . Most of knew including myself knew it was the main product making money and profitable for them. Report to Shareholders 2016 http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/report17.html and from 2015 http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/report16.html. Both reports indicate Gurps was hurting and Munchkin was their main bread and butter. I make it point to visit the SJGames site as it was the first generic rpg I played in then Hero Games. It's no longer my generic rpg systemof choice. Yet neither am i glad to see that as rpg it is hurting. Again nice try at trying to change the subject. I knew boardgamers were top sellers because all the gaming stores in my area are 70-90% boardgames, cardgames and other non-rpg materials with 10-20% rpgs. Even than it's only popular rpgs. They will order in non-popular rpgs say Rifts books yet they will not stock them.

 I never claimed to be the authority on the subject. I just go tired of you making it that myself and others who disagreed with you were idiots.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728Sureshot, because you are having such a bad faith discussion I'll help you out: nothing SJ Games can do will bring enough significant revenue to justify the opportunity cost. SJ Games has GURPS lite and it's free. I think a GURPS Continuing Lite would be another good product to add (and I said so above but you ignored it because you're too fucking stupid to breathe). I want the 3PP program so folks can use the game engine to do a lot of different things without having to have SJ Games look at the resources they have and where their revenue comes from and decide that the resources are better spent on another munchkin product or board game.

Yes because keeping the status quo and changing nothing has done wonders for the sales and profit of SJGames or Hero Games. You want a miraculous recovery yet you don't want SJGames do change anything about. I agree with you that Gurps lite is a step in the right direction. Yet that needs to be done to all the rules. Not just an introductory rules to Gurps. Even then it's not enough imo. Compared to the Hero Games version it is sorely lacking. It is a good introduction yet not enough to run a game with it. At least Hero games sidekick had about 85-90% of the rules included and you could run and do much with it alone. 3pp is also a good option though you can't run and support an rpg line with just 3pp support imo. All Hero Games is now is just 3pp. They need to ensure that they get a licensing fee with their 3pp so even if SJGames has situation that Wotc had with Pathfinder they make money off their potential more successful competitors.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728The biggest headwind that the DFRPG faced was management mistakes not market failure.  They didn't budget the time and resources properly and they didn't have their supply chain model done correctly. It came in over cost and behind schedule. The market wanted it. If they could have not had those errors it would have been a tremendous success.

Poor management and enough fans who are not interested in buying the rules as is. If they had not kickstarted it I'm not sure if it would have been a success on it's own. You seem determined to downplay that enough gamers just do not want rules complexity and crunch. When the company that created the rpg is cutting back on publishing the rpg it's not a good sign and a good indicator that enough fans are voting with their wallet. A properly run company does not reduce support to a popular profitable rpg line without a good reason. Yes DF is a success to some extent. It's just a variation of Gurps and that also needs to be successful too.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078728Here is what GURPS has had: Douglas Cole has successfully had two kickstartersa for DFRPG content and he has others planned for this year. We have the reprint and the Monsters 2 book currently on KS.

I am glad that Douglas Cole is doing a bang up job with DF and that is doing well. Overall Gurps needs more than just DF. Until we see something major in terms of more than the status quo and no changes I don't think it will ever happen .

Where are the rules-light systems that make it to the ICv2 Top 5 though? I see almost exclusively rules-medium to rules-heavy games there. Again, there are role-playing fans that want to denounce more complex games, make it seem as if they're dinos of the past, doomed to extinction and talk the situation they're thus conjuring up into existence.

I have to observe that 40k Roleplay was described here as successful in spite of its crunch: fans wanted less crunch and it was only successful because of the underlying IP. But then we look at Zweihänder and WFRP 4E and this explanation looks increasingly shaky... like an attempt to denounce complex games in order to shift public perception. That is exactly the kind of talk that in recent years has not received pushback by fans of less dumbed down games. If (and they might as well be) more complex games are floundering, then it is in part due to just that and their inability to turn the tables on these critics.

Really, you can hide much of GURPS complexity in simple tables.  Take defence rolls half skill + 3 isn't hard to chart.  D&D does as much with it's attribute bonus table.

Quote from: sureshot;1078742Good points though if change nothing and maintain the status quo is the goal than it will not get better for SJGames and Hero Games.

The two situations are the same in only one respect, that they no longer hold the same sales position relative to the rest of the RPG industry, they had in the mid 2000s. Other than that their current circumstances are different as well as how they got to where they are now.

Quote from: sureshot;1078742I'm trying to view this not as an ex-Gurps fan and more someone looking in and so far I'm not seeing any willingness on the Gurps fanbase to try and save it.

One has to have the means and with Gaming Ballistic in the picture it changing and the means may yet appear.

Quote from: sureshot;1078742The trend is for more rules light and less crunch screw that it won't work.

That assessment is as much of a magic bullet as anything else done to date. It obvious you are passionate about the idea. But other including myself are not.

What you need to work towards is selling SJ Games on to let anybody who interested to take a crack at it within reasonable boundaries of taste. Because in that environment you can attempt your rules-lite idea and see how it sells.

My personal assessment is  that it will lose any advantage of associated with the name GURPS as it will be GURPS in name only. Much in the way D&D 4th edition was D&D in name only.

And more importantly that one can achieve the goal of rule lightness within the existing system by presenting less stuff i.e. lower point totals, revamped skills, revamped advantages, sticking to basic combat rules, all  still within the structure set by the core books.

Finally that there are systems out there are GURPS lite. The AGE system by Green Ronin and FUDGE by Grey Ghost. Their design got there by ditching much of the detail that make GURPS it own thing.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078753Really, you can hide much of GURPS complexity in simple tables.  Take defence rolls half skill + 3 isn't hard to chart.  D&D does as much with it's attribute bonus table.

I always found the complexity of GURPS was before players got to the table. Once we start playing I don't think the game is really that complex.

Quote from: estar;1078754One has to have the means and with Gaming Ballistic in the picture it changing and the means may yet appear.

Took a look at the site and I agree it has potential. Though the website itself not easy on the eyes imo.

Quote from: estar;1078754That assessment is as much of a magic bullet as anything else done to date. It obvious you are passionate about the idea. But other including myself are not.

It not just being passionate. It's the reality of the situation. Enough gamers are just not interested in Gurps. To the point that keeps being ignored by you and others here. My approach is a risk better than jst doing nothing. Right now unless 3PP Gurps REALLY takes off I don't see things getting better only worse

Quote from: estar;1078754What you need to work towards is selling SJ Games on to let anybody who interested to take a crack at it within reasonable boundaries of taste. Because in that environment you can attempt your rules-lite idea and see how it sells.

It's not my rpg nor my company, nor my job. I'm not interested in doing so without getting paid. Up to SJGames and the fans who interested to do so. My group has no interest in Gurps. They like D&D specifically Pathfinder and Gurps. While making it clear they are not interested in something else. I cannot and will not waste my time fighting an already lost battle. It's like Palladium Books who refuses to spend money on advertising and expects the fans to do so free through word of mouth.

Quote from: estar;1078754My personal assessment is  that it will lose any advantage of associated with the name GURPS as it will be GURPS in name only. Much in the way D&D 4th edition was D&D in name only.

We are back to square one an rpg that is not as profitable with a fanbase not wanting anything to change yet somehow get better. I might be looking for the magic bullet yet some like yourself want to bury your heads in the sand and expect the situation to improve.

Quote from: estar;1078754And more importantly that one can achieve the goal of rule lightness within the existing system by presenting less stuff i.e. lower point totals, revamped skills, revamped advantages, sticking to basic combat rules, all  still within the structure set by the core books.

Which can work if it is not too complex or crunchy. Presentation will not do much if the fans still have to work through the complexity and crunchiness. It['s for the rpg company to make the rules accessible. While a player has to make an effort as well it's not their job to bend over backwards to do so either.

Quote from: estar;1078754Finally that there are systems out there are GURPS lite. The AGE system by Green Ronin and FUDGE by Grey Ghost. Their design got there by ditching much of the detail that make GURPS it own thing.

I do not know how well is Fudge is doing yet I'm assuming the AGE is doing well as GR seems to be moving all newer rpgs they publish to the Age system. A smartly one business company does not invest in a product that makes no money. Beyond those who are really attached to one rpg system no one cares about rpg XYZ doing it's own thing. They stick with RPG option A until RPG option b comes along that is easier and faster to use. It's why SJGames, Hero Labs, Palladium Books, Columbia games all are suffering to some extent in the hobby. Most fans stay loyal to rpg company XYZ as long as it benefits. Then another rpg that is easier, faster and fixes the flaws of the current rpg they play. You might get a "see ya!" then they switch over to the new rpg. It's what happened with Pathfinder and 5E. With Gurps and Hero Games with Fate And Savage worlds.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1078646This is part of the genius of the level system, especially if combined with random character generation. It's simple to start, and as the character becomes more experienced, so does the player, who can now handle the increased complexity and in-game challenges.

It has its flaws, of course. But escalating complexity has proven to be more popular than complexity right from the start.

Simple to start is the key here.

Quote from: jhkim;1078656Has this been shown by anything other than D&D? Because it's certainly true that D&D is more popular than other games, but there are a lot of reasons for that. Outside of D&D, I don't clearly see this as a trend. GURPS, Hero, BRP / Call of Cthulhu, FATE, and many other systems are all second-tier, and they don't have escalating complexity.

It's certainly a reasonable choice - but I don't think that the point about popularity is proven.

Things are much clearer in 20/20 hindsight.

Being first is a very big deal. And D&D was first.

But it did have things going for it that absolutely helped!

It was simple to start, Easy to create a PC and start a game.

D&D had a built in play dynamic that new players didn't have to wrap their heads around: (Kill things, take their stuff, and level up! The Dungeon was genius for this.)

Add the familiarity of Medieval Fantasy Tolkienesque tropes, and you had a fucking winner.


Where as you look at some of its earliest "competitors", like Runequest, and you can see how it just doesn't hit any of those points at all...