Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078558The question is: is the market for D&D because it has a better product? Or is the market for D&D because it has the attention? A second question would be: at which point does streamlining become dumbing down?

It been 40 years, I think it been proven that D&D is a rare example of a traillblazer that got it right from the first. That the one major departure, 4th edition, only lost out to a previous editions (3.5 in the form of Pathfinder) and the D&D brand regained the crown after course correcting back to what made D&D great with 5th edition.

As for dumbing down things there is Fudge versus GURPS which got no traction, then there is Fate versus Fudge, which did get some traction. Hint it wasn't all about changes to the system that made Fate work. It was a publisher who was more in touch with their audience and did interesting things with the settings they implemented with the rules.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078516Hence TFT

I'm not sure if that is a solution imo. It's not that well known by the younger or even some old members of the hobby. I just see it as another dud of a magic bullet imo. It needs to give gamers a reason to switch over from 5E to TFT. The nostaglia of a older IP coming to life is hit or miss usually miss imo. As many miss the gold old rpgs of yesterday...may do not want to pay for it.

Quote from: Aglondir;1078519Was that "Streamlining Hero" circa 2004?

I think it is as before TPB before woke and insane it was a fun place to go hang out. I think I even participated in that thread and as the op mentioned the usual chorus of " no no changes! You will ruin the Hero System! Go play another rules light less complex rpg like Savage worlds." etc. Now fast forward to 2019 Hero Games is on life support with the patient fading fast and SJGames is cutting back on Gurps. Then again those of us who wanted to simplify the system what did we know. Even back then I could see the signs  of dissatisfaction with both rpgs in my area. Besides one person for Hero no one ran Gurps. Plenty had the books just no one willing to put up with the complexity and crunchiness. It turns out brand loyalty goes out the window when they can use a faster, less complex, and rules light rpg. It did not help that Pinnacle at the time was able to secure a great publishing deal for the format 10$ US for the entire set of rules and slightly slimmer than the average paperback.

Quote from: estar;1078522You guys are all suggesting "magic bullets" and making the same mistake SJ Games made. That this one project or this one change in vision is going to fix GURPS. What needed is a multitude of efforts each doing their own thing with GURPS, within reason. Cutting in SJ Games a portion monetarily of course but pursuing their own creative vision as how to present things and what kind of content to write.

So far everything has been a bunch of magic bullets and SJGames has been lucky in most respects. Munchkin could have been a failure. TFT is being marketed on the system yet mainly nostalgia. Releasing books for Gurps that not many people are interested in. Sure their forums will have a bunch of fans saying they will buy them. Those same fans are not stupid they will tell the company to release the new material. Then and IF they buy it when they are damn good and ready to do so when it benefits them. I kind of understand Gurps Discworld. Mars Attacks was just a WTF moment. Being creative is all well and good when the IP is making one money. Not so much when the rpg is not making money. I get your point about risk yt at this point what to they have to lose. WOTC took a risk publishing 3E and it could have gone either way and it payed off for them. Playing it safe and keeping the status quo is why Gurps and Hero System is where they are now.

Quote from: estar;1078522Nobody know what will work unless it is tried. If you are going to push anything then push to let you or something who is interested take a crack at it. And keep in mind this will in addition to whatever SJ Games decides to release for GURPS.

Anyone with any intelligence doing their research and willing to actually look with a fresh pair of open eyes could have seen the rpg market trend to less complexity and rules light. Especially when SJGames and Hero Games are losing money and moving less product. Sometimes it's not so cut and dry yet when it comes to fans wanting less complexity and crunch in their rpgs only the most obtuse, stubborn and more importantly willfully blind would say otherwise. Understanble if Savage Worlds and Fate just hit the market in the last five years or so. Both have been out for quite awhile and SJGames and Hero Games choose to ignore the market trend and are now paying the price. At this point neither company can claim to be in the dark about that as both would be disingenuous to me at least if either ever claimed that.
 

Quote from: estar;1078522Unlike Hero System SJ Games has the infrastructure and know how to do this digitally at least in the form of Warehouse 23.

Besides the infrastructure they also kept the the 4E size of the core books to a manageable decent level and keeping the core in print. NOW we can finally get the majority if not all the products for Hero 6E. At least a good 6-7 years after announcement of cutting back on publishing new Hero Material, Volume 1 of the 6E core many other 6E were out of print, going for stupid prices on Amazon and only available in PDF. Which also hurt their sales further. I can understand 1-3 years it should not have taken that long for them to go POD.

Quote from: estar;1078531Well the trick is come up with something that is effective and that makes Steve Jackson comfortable. As Phil said he is the guy in charge.

The main point I would emphasive is that there isn't going to be a 3PP competitor that overtake SJ Games in GURPS. Even if GURPS is released under the OGL, Steve Jackson official stamp of approval is always going to count more than any 3PP no matter how good they are.

The whole Pathfinder D&D 4th edition thing is a special case and a result of Wizards shooting themselves several times in several different ways. It going to be more like Chaosium and Mongoose Runequest.

Again unless the terms of how 3pp material are truly detrimental to SJGames then with all due respect Steve Jackson get over fast being uncomfortable. Gurps needs something new even 3pp. If they are worried about another Pathfinder situation make it so that a small reasonable yearly fee be paid to SJGames for every person who wants to publish 3pp. Before anyone cries bloody murder "it must be free" SJgames is not a charity and why should someone make money of their rules without SJGames receiving some kind of reward. Yes you will be surprised if the amount asked is not too expensive and Steve Jackson is honest about the reason for the fee people will pay to use it to publish 3pp. An OGL will be detrimental to Gurps. One where SJGames receives a small licensing fee means that even if their is a Pathfinder version of Gurps SJGames receives some kind of profit.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078558at which point does streamlining become dumbing down?

Not an easy question to answer. To some fans any change is dumbing down even if the makes the game easier to run. 5E D&D has shown that enough gamers don't care if it's dumbed down. As long as they can make the same characters they could in the previous edition, fixes the flaws and speeds up game play the majority don't care. It's usually the grognards who don't want to learn and spend money on a new set of rules. While being pissed they no longer can find players for their table. As more often than not if the new edition is well received and online and out of it word of mouth gets around players and DMs move to the new edition. The only gamers I see complaining and using dumbing down are players using old editions.

Quote from: sureshot;1078565Playing it safe and keeping the status quo is why Gurps and Hero System is where they are now.

I have not followed any of the drama behind the Hero System other than sticking with 5th edition because 6th edition didn't offer anything new or compelling for me. I suspect many other Hero fans felt the same, at least they did in my neck of the woods, and as result 6th edition was doomed irregardless of how much effort the company put in.

As for GURPS, it ills and conservatism stem from the success of Munchkin. There is only so many hours in the day and the priority has to be on what is the company's bread and butter. What hours were devoted to GURPS has to be in pursuit of what keeps the line profitable. In this they been successfuly thus Sean Punch remains employable and there is a trickle of new GURPS products every year.

The two systems situation is not analogous despite both of their decline.

 What I do know possible solutions to GURPS has to be the ones that minimizes the time SJ Games needs to devote. Even if they revamp GURPS and come up with the all time best ever product for an RPG and sell like gangbuster to RPG hobbyists, it still not going to compete with the board/card game market juggernaut. Even D&D doesn't compete with the board/card game market although it is popular and by far #1 in its category.
 

Quote from: sureshot;1078565Anyone with any intelligence doing their research and willing to actually look with a fresh pair of open eyes could have seen the rpg market trend to less complexity and rules light.

I been in the hobby a while and seen trends come and go. It better to do your own thing and do it well. Presenting it in a matter that is interesting and easy to learn. GURPS should remain GURPS. I had success at distilling GURPS into a few easy to read cheat sheets that get newcomers to my campaign up to speed quickly. GURPS problem it doesn't have a presentation that is interesting and easy to learn.

The Dungeon Fantasy RPG has a little of this. There are some "new" advantage that are really old advantages combined with limitations and enhancements applied. Instead of presenting all the bits and pieces separately like it is in the core rules. Sean Punch presents just the combined point total and wrote it up as it own thing.

Another is not to design your take around high point totals. Which multiplies the number of options on the character sheet which means more things to learn by the player.

For example I had success with novice with stuff like the following. It not perfect and relies too much on me being there to explain things but with the explanations fleshed out a bit and given a working over I think it would at the right level of complexity.
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Gods%20-%20Set,%20Myrmidon%20Template.pdf


This idea can be applied to any implementation of GURPS to present a GURPS RPG that easier to learn then reading the core books or the supplements without changing the system.

Again GURPS has the options, the problem been one of presentation not system design.



 

Quote from: sureshot;1078565Understanble if Savage Worlds and Fate just hit the market in the last five years or so. Both have been out for quite awhile and SJGames and Hero Games choose to ignore the market trend and are now paying the price. At this point neither company can claim to be in the dark about that as both would be disingenuous to me at least if either ever claimed that.

Fate and SJGAMES and for that matter the OSR succeed because there are interesting settings and supplements that show how things work when implemented. All three have robust 3PP communities. Fate and Savage Worlds both have a principle publisher (Pinnacle and Evil Hat) that reap the lion share of the sales.

What important that unlike when the "What do about GURPS" debate first came now we have numerous examples of different type of licensing and different levels of publisher involvement to examine. I can't say which one Steve Jackson likes best but a lot of the ifs and maybes has been replaced by real experiences in other areas of the industry.
 

Quote from: sureshot;1078565I can understand 1-3 years it should not have taken that long for them to go POD.

The problem of HERO Games from what little I followed about it is that all boiled down to the decisions and whims of a single individual. One whose decision did not work out. a few years ago I met Steven Long and the some of Hero system team at a convention once. I left with the impression at just how passionate they are about Hero 6th edition was for them. Doesn't surprise me what happened with Hero Games. I don't think it was inevitable but ultimately it didn't work out.

GURPS isn't a failure. I misspoke when I said that. It is a niche product with a dedicated audience. They can manage their PDF and PoD business. I don't think trying to come out with a new edition that is "rules light" will work. People, especially the new mass audience for D&D, want D&D. New players are not spreading out in the hobby like they used to. People want D&D and we will see if they move on to 6E whenever that comes out or leave the hobby all together.

World of Warcraft had like 15 million subscribers at one point. Folks didnt leave WoW for other MMOs. They left WoW and didn't pick up another game. That audience that made WoW so big, those are the folks playing D&D now.

Munchkin is the money maker. A 3PP platform would allow folks to use GURPS that don't need a lot of revenue to justify the investment. I like GURPS 4E. I don't think it needs a new edition. New presentation for sure....and I think DFRPG does that.

Quote from: sureshot;1078568The only gamers I see complaining and using dumbing down are players using old editions.

I don't use any D&D edition. But it's clear that the current trend in RPGs is losing accuracy for the sake of simplicity. At which point does it become too much and pandering to entry-level gamers? Where does it end? Why even have advantage and disadvantage? Or any modifiers to straight tests?

Quote from: estar;1078578I been in the hobby a while and seen trends come and go. It better to do your own thing and do it well.

I am in a weird place. Back in the 90s I was more a "role-player" instead of a "roll-player". But back then it was aaaall bout the loot and the XPs for many gamers. Now the winds have changed and I oddly find myself having to advocate for more GAME elements in role-playing games. Advantage in D&D 5E is ultimately a gloss-over mechanic: we don't care about the detail that games like GURPS care about. To us, it's all the same. We want less mathematics (which are game elements) so that we can focus on the role-playing.
I feel we have begun trading one extreme for another and I wonder how long it will take for some people to miss accuracy in their games.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078591GURPS isn't a failure. I misspoke when I said that. It is a niche product with a dedicated audience.

Here's the thing: IF the current market is at trading accuracy for simplicity and IF Steve Jackson wants to maintain an accurate system and IF he does so because he prefers accuracy, then what does he do to promote a different approach to games? Where is the effort by publishers of more complex games to push back? Or do they all just roll over? Well, I won't.

Accuracy matters: the adventure is in the odds.

There's a couple considerations when one looks at doing a clone.  Which I no longer advocate really but have put a lot of thought into.

The simpler approach would be to essentially create a framework for people's self published material to be GURPS compatible.  I think this would need a couple degrees of separation to avoid legal issues but at the least, one roll Strength and Health together and call them "Size" to make the attributes compatible.  You could also blow things apart, separating damage and lifting to get 5 point Strength, Knowledge, Reason, Perception, and Willpower.  Manual Dexterity, Agility, Speed, and Reflexes to get Dexterity.  The second doesn't look simpler but could have stats moved into traits and have, perhaps six attributes.  I'd lean towards moving the skill modifying parts of attributes into traits and keeping the parts that have absolute in game effects like damage and hit points.  Traits would be more like the hero system set with a more generic trait like social, mental, and physical being able to provide positive or negative values.  With this scheme it would be quite possible to divide point costs by 5, making basic characters 20 points and so on.  The This has the advantage of being actually 100% compatible with GURPS  Skills would be paired down and categorized like traits so each would match to five GURPS skills.

The other method would be to create a true new standard that matches to many of the good things about GURPS.  So, modular, hierarchical structure, structured formats, point buy characters, detailed but fast playing combat with realistic options.  This is the method that's most likely to fragment and become irrelevant.  On the other hand it's actually a new game and a new standard without the fan base or reputation for good or ill.  I think it's the more morally acceptable route.

I've dithered around with both ideas over the years.  I've got a number of my own game designs in various states of completion and I don't really feel the need to step on the toes of people I like even if I expect they've got a picture of me on their dart board, hoping, of course, they've mixed me up with that Rockstar who shares my name  If you really want to reach a larger audience and make some money there's still the D&D based OGL.  If you're just a poor, misunderstood, raging, egotist like me bowing to the desires of other is just silly and you should just go your own way and do your own thing and just pile on those trite aphorisms.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078599I don't use any D&D edition. But it's clear that the current trend in RPGs is losing accuracy for the sake of simplicity. At which point does it become too much and pandering to entry-level gamers? Where does it end? Why even have advantage and disadvantage? Or any modifiers to straight tests?

I get the point your trying to make yet a decent amount of gamers do not want to spend the money on complex or crunchy systems. All one has to do is look at the fate of Gurps and the Hero System. It's not just entry level fans who do not want complex and crunch it's also older fans not willing to spend the time and effort as well. If their is a faster more rules light alternative to Gurps and Hero they will spend money on that.

Good job on the template Estar some mighty fine work. The problem is many too many gamers will look at that and simply "nope not for me too much I will go back to Savage Worlds." Presentation matters yet if the complexity and crunch remains that is the only thing players will see. I think many here under-estimate how popular rules light less crunchy systems are and more importantly how much the average gamer wants to put up with that complexity and crunchiness. Sure in a perfect world both rpgs could survive as is we don't live in one.

Can anyone name me one prominent figure in role-playing today that is arguing for complexity in games? Or is it all just a relentless stream of "less is better" messaging?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078605Can anyone name me one prominent figure in role-playing today that is arguing for complexity in games? Or is it all just a relentless stream of "less is better" messaging?

I can speak to that in regards to the Majestic Wilderlands versus straight OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry. No you don't pitch complexity, instead you pitch why are you doing it.

For example I added a skill system. I don't call it a skill system because unlike most skill systems it doesn't define what you can do but rather what you are better at. So I called an ability system and pitch it as Any character can attempt any ability. A magic user can stealth, a cleric can pick locks, a burglar can preach a sermon, and a fighter can deicphier some writing.  Just some classes are better at those activities than other.

And the reason I bother with it all because the focus of my campaign has been on the players making their mark on the setting like becoming kings, guildmasters, or magnates. This required me to expand the world outside of the dungeon and adventuring.

I make it clear that this focus is not THE way of playing classic D&D but A way and I am presenting how I do it. If you like it great if you don't hope you find the rest of the book useful.

This approached extends to all the other rules addition I added.

And it been successful enough to earn enough sales to warrant Electrum on RPGNow and Silver on DriveThruRPG.  Accomplished by adding complexity to OD&D.

So like I said, it about knowing what you want and doing it well. With the caveat that you present in a way that is straightforward and interesting to learn. One way to do both is making sure you add the minimum to make what you want happen. As well as clear writing, good presentation, well designed rules, well play tested rules and so forth and so on.

And what I did with the Majestic Wilderlands and OD&D, can be done with GURPS. Not just because of my work but because what I did has been successfully repeated across the OSR time and time again.

Complexity will not sell, but complexity that used when needed to make an RPG that is fun and interesting will sell.

Fun Fact
My Majestic Wilderlands for Swords & Wizardry supplement origin  is found in a series of notes and templates from 20 years of playing the Majestic Wilderlands using GURPS (2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition).

Quote from: sureshot;1078601Good job on the template Estar some mighty fine work. The problem is many too many gamers will look at that and simply "nope not for me too much I will go back to Savage Worlds."

Appreciate the compliment.

As for the "nope too complex" issue, it takes a package deal to overcome it. Complexity will be accepted if it part of a good design that is fun and interesting to play. But there is work involved in demonstrating why your idea is fun and interesting.

As a side comment, keep in mind that the average hobbyists likes a certain amount of complexity. It possible to go to far to simplicity and thus hobbyist will lose interest as it is to go too complex.

Quote from: estar;1078578...It better to do your own thing and do it well. Presenting it in a matter that is interesting and easy to learn. GURPS should remain GURPS. ...

Again GURPS has the options, the problem been one of presentation not system design...

Fate and ...and for that matter the OSR succeed because there are interesting settings and supplements that show how things work when implemented. All three have robust 3PP communities. Fate and Savage Worlds both have a principle publisher (Pinnacle and Evil Hat) that reap the lion share of the sales..

And both are much lighter systems than GURPS or HERO - that cannot be discounted,

Presentation is important - but presentation can only do so much like sureshot points out:

Quote from: sureshot;1078601I get the point your trying to make yet a decent amount of gamers do not want to spend the money on complex or crunchy systems. All one has to do is look at the fate of Gurps and the Hero System. It's not just entry level fans who do not want complex and crunch it's also older fans not willing to spend the time and effort as well. If their is a faster more rules light alternative to Gurps and Hero they will spend money on that.

Good job on the template Estar some mighty fine work. The problem is many too many gamers will look at that and simply "nope not for me too much I will go back to Savage Worlds." Presentation matters yet if the complexity and crunch remains that is the only thing players will see. I think many here under-estimate how popular rules light less crunchy systems are and more importantly how much the average gamer wants to put up with that complexity and crunchiness. Sure in a perfect world both rpgs could survive as is we don't live in one.

Quote from: estar;1078578...
I been in the hobby a while and seen trends come and go.

That argument could have been trotted out around 2000 or so. But at this point the trend is permanent.

Yes in the early 80's to the 90's you saw an uptick in complex systems, primarily as a reaction to D&D. Wanting to model "reality" and get away from "arbitrary D&Disms".

But today, all those systems are functionally dead in the general RPG hobby.

Games are going more towards Genre Sim rather than Reality Sim, in design.

The days of seeing RoleMaster and Champions taking up shelf space in an actual store are over.

The days of people even recommending them for someone looking for a superhero or fantasy system are over.

And GURPS is in the same boat.

Why?

Because you can get the same effect at the table with less complex rules systems.

And the Hobby is not going back.

Complex games like GURPS, HERO, And RoleMaster are the Trend that came and went...

If large numbers of new players are coming into the hobby via simple systems, then perhaps the future trend will be towards more complex systems as those players might be wanting more and more detail.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078599I am in a weird place. Back in the 90s I was more a "role-player" instead of a "roll-player". But back then it was aaaall bout the loot and the XPs for many gamers. Now the winds have changed and I oddly find myself having to advocate for more GAME elements in role-playing games. Advantage in D&D 5E is ultimately a gloss-over mechanic: we don't care about the detail that games like GURPS care about. To us, it's all the same. We want less mathematics (which are game elements) so that we can focus on the role-playing.
I feel we have begun trading one extreme for another and I wonder how long it will take for some people to miss accuracy in their games.

Not surprising. I playtested a bunch of stuff since I started writing and inflicted some of them on my friend who game with me. :-). There were some things I tried that were "too light" and they wanted something with more mechanics in them.

In general my observation if one sticks with a setting over the course of many campaigns that you develop an idea of what the details are. And those details get consistent rulings even in system that don't have much to begin with it. Thus for me at least I wind up in the same sport irregardless of the complexity of the system I use.