I'm slowly inching towards getting into GURPS 4E and one thing I am curious about is, can I more or less do everything with the two Core books (Characters and Campaigns) in the same way HERO 6E allows me to do everything with just it's core books.
That is are all the building blocks are in the 2 core books and the supplement books are just pre-built powers, gear, spells etc. Basically time saver books. Maybe a better way to ask my question is are the 2 core books a Tool-kit in the way HERO 6E's core books are a tool-kit, or, if I want to get the full meal deal will I need to pick up The Tech books, the Powers book, the Magic book and so on.
Quote from: Gwarh;989659I'm slowly inching towards getting into GURPS 4E and one thing I am curious about is, can I more or less do everything with the two Core books (Characters and Campaigns) in the same way HERO 6E allows me to do everything with just it's core books.
That is are all the building blocks are in the 2 core books and the supplement books are just pre-built powers, gear, spells etc. Basically time saver books. Maybe a better way to ask my question is are the 2 core books a Tool-kit in the way HERO 6E's core books are a tool-kit, or, if I want to get the full meal deal will I need to pick up The Tech books, the Powers book, the Magic book and so on.
Yes and no,
Yes GURPS 4e Advantages, Disadvantages, Enhancements, and Limitation work more or less like they do in Hero. You buy the base and modify it with enhancements and limitation to get exactly what you want (http://gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf).
NoThe thing to remember that GURPS is far more skill based than Hero. Partially due to the legacy and partly because it just how SJ Games does design, GURPS has numerous self-contained sub systems. For example GURPS has both GURPS Magic, GURPS Ritual Path Magic, and the GURPS Thaumatology gives you a huge amount of design options. GURPS Martials Arts vastly expands the number of techniques for combat skills.
The several hundred spells in GURPS Magic are a real time saver but it is a specific take on magic. So going with the core books only may be the better way of implementing how you view magic ought to work.
In a nutshellIs any of this needed beyond the core book? Not really which is a marked difference from the first three editions. But it is a toolkit so be prepared to spend some time doing rules prep to make the exact campaign you want to run.
Now if your goal is to run a fantasy campaign similar to what a lot of people run with D&D then GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is the better to way to go at first. Overall it sits where Mythras/Runequest 6e sits as far as what it contains and how adaptable it is to different types of fantasy campaigns.
YES....
You Can 'do it all' with just the two main books - and maybe a pdf of the character sheet handy.
Keep in mind that as GM you still have to write up a lot of stuff on your own.
- Ed C.
I think for a lot of gamers all you need is the core rulebooks, at least at the start. If you hit the wall I'd look at supplements to expand the game as you go.
Arguably Powers is the third core book. Certainly it contains a small number of advantages that aren't in the Core books (Create, Control, Leech, Neutralise and Static) which you might want.
It's really marginal, though. You can do a huge amount with the two core books.
Quote from: estar;989667Yes and no,
Yes
GURPS 4e Advantages, Disadvantages, Enhancements, and Limitation work more or less like they do in Hero. You buy the base and modify it with enhancements and limitation to get exactly what you want (http://gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf).
No
The thing to remember that GURPS is far more skill based than Hero. Partially due to the legacy and partly because it just how SJ Games does design, GURPS has numerous self-contained sub systems. For example GURPS has both GURPS Magic, GURPS Ritual Path Magic, and the GURPS Thaumatology gives you a huge amount of design options. GURPS Martials Arts vastly expands the number of techniques for combat skills.
The several hundred spells in GURPS Magic are a real time saver but it is a specific take on magic. So going with the core books only may be the better way of implementing how you view magic ought to work.
In a nutshell
Is any of this needed beyond the core book? Not really which is a marked difference from the first three editions. But it is a toolkit so be prepared to spend some time doing rules prep to make the exact campaign you want to run.
Now if your goal is to run a fantasy campaign similar to what a lot of people run with D&D then GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is the better to way to go at first. Overall it sits where Mythras/Runequest 6e sits as far as what it contains and how adaptable it is to different types of fantasy campaigns.
Thanks estar, Koltar & Ulairi for the feedback. I'm happy to hear it's a "Tool-kit" system at it's core. I backed the "Dungeon Fantasy" kickstarter which is about to, or is actually shipping now so that will be my first exposure to the system.
It's one of those games that I can't believe I never got into as it's been around for ages. Well I guess I do know why, for a long while when I was younger I felt like playing GURPS was cheating on HERO lol. Also I felt GURPS was ripping off HERO rather than an homage and twist on HERO.
For me, having no setting premise means having no context to game in. I generally don't like generic rules for this reason, and prefer discrete games that fully mesh system and setting. GURPS core is complete, in the sense of having all the rules necessary but not 'complete' in as much as it doesn't set the parameters of what you should do with them. If that makes any sense....
Quote from: TrippyHippy;989689For me, having no setting premise means having no context to game in. I generally don't like generic rules for this reason, and prefer discrete games that fully mesh system and setting. GURPS core is complete, in the sense of having all the rules necessary but not 'complete' in as much as it doesn't set the parameters of what you should do with them. If that makes any sense....
That makes sense.
I'm not adverse to getting the source books, in fact that is GURPS greatest strength it seems, all the source/inspiration material. I just have a thing for game systems/engines so I like the idea of one that can do it all in the core books.
Generic do it all systems can be a bit bland at times as well so there is always that danger. But I'm a big HERO fan and I've always heard that GURPS and HERO are like kissing cousins so I think I'll be happy with GURPS once I get started with it.
I'm a bit obsessed with the Grail Quest for the "perfect" RPG engine that can do it all. I know it's silly and I'll never find it, but I can't help myself and keep searching. (HERO, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Cortex engine, Cypher engine, d20, AGE engine, Basic RPG, on and on the search goes)
Quote from: Gwarh;989686Thanks estar, Koltar & Ulairi for the feedback. I'm happy to hear it's a "Tool-kit" system at it's core. I backed the "Dungeon Fantasy" kickstarter which is about to, or is actually shipping now so that will be my first exposure to the system.
I backed at the $250 level and so got the PDFs. You will be in good hands with the boxed set. The only issue is the number of "stuff" one deals with because of the 250 pt templates and it is a minor one at that.
Quote from: Gwarh;989686It's one of those games that I can't believe I got into as it's been around for ages. Well I guess I do know why, for a long while when I was younger I felt like playing GURPS was cheating on HERO lol. Also I felt GURPS was ripping off HERO rather than an homage and twist on HERO.
Even I made the switch to GURPS I still used Champions for super hero campaign. GURPS is just not my goto for that genre.
I don't know if you can do it all , but surely you can do twice as much as I did with 3rd edition GURPS since it's at least twice as long , right? ;)
No, not really, but you can do an awful lot.
You'll find you need Powers or Magic. Magic's not as bad as some people say but it does a pretty specific variety of magic that works best at a lower points range. It doesn't balance out with the rest of the points system. A 500 point mage is terrifying but also not particularly effective against tanks and the like, though "Throw Spell" and "Shape Metal" certainly can be. Thaumatology is a big book of magic systems and alternatives, I've never really used it, interesting I suppose but GURPS Magic does most of what I want.
Ultra Tech and High Tech are very useful in sf games and Space Ships is essential to many. Be sure to gather the half dozen or so articles scattered through various Pyramid issues that let you use Space Ships to simulate other kinds of vehicles. GURPS really needs a new GURPS Vehicles even if it's reduced to a listing of a wide range of vehicle stats.
Low Tech and Martial Arts are pretty awesome. If you want more realistic weapons and armor and fighting styles you'll want them. I will suggest renaming the skills "Karate" and "Judo" "Striking" and "Sweeps" go through the book and tape a little bit of paper over every instance and you'll save yourself almost infinite frustration and confusion.
Supers is a mixed blessing or horribly botched (if you ask me) and I'd skip it and just muddle by or use HERO.
If you want fantasy races and templates you'll want Banestorm but you can certainly build your own.
Just about everything was out of print for a few years there but now it's mostly available in print on demand.
Quote from: Gwarh;989686It's one of those games that I can't believe I got into as it's been around for ages. Well I guess I do know why, for a long while when I was younger I felt like playing GURPS was cheating on HERO lol. Also I felt GURPS was ripping off HERO rather than an homage and twist on HERO.
I'm playing in a GURPS fantasy game that started out as a Castles & Crusades game using Dungeon Crawl Classics modules. So far, it's just been the two core books and nothing else and it's been great. In fact, better than great. I'm freaking loving it and I didn't expect to.
I'm also in the early stages of running a HERO fantasy campaign, just now getting my feet wet. I can totally see the appeal.
Quote from: Eisenmann;989952I'm playing in a GURPS fantasy game that started out as a Castles & Crusades game using Dungeon Crawl Classics modules. So far, it's just been the two core books and nothing else and it's been great. In fact, better than great. I'm freaking loving it and I didn't expect to.
I'm also in the early stages of running a HERO fantasy campaign, just now getting my feet wet. I can totally see the appeal.
I like both. While GURPS has tons of options but for the most part once you zero in on one the specifics are short, to the point, and makes sense in light of reality or the genre.
And the Hero System powers system is just plain elegant in what it can handle.
Quote from: David Johansen;989858Supers is a mixed blessing or horribly botched (if you ask me) and I'd skip it and just muddle by or use HERO.
When you said "
Supers" you mean this (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Supers/)correct, vs. the "
Powers (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/powers/)" book correct?
I only as as it would be a real shame of the Powers buck was crap as Powers are a HUUUUGE part of the game I'd think.
Quote from: Gwarh;989699That makes sense.
I'm not adverse to getting the source books, in fact that is GURPS greatest strength it seems, all the source/inspiration material. I just have a thing for game systems/engines so I like the idea of one that can do it all in the core books.
Generic do it all systems can be a bit bland at times as well so there is always that danger. But I'm a big HERO fan and I've always heard that GURPS and HERO are like kissing cousins so I think I'll be happy with GURPS once I get started with it.
Your setting is created just by the skills you allow your players to have. The skills are the rules for the game, which is why I stopped using GURPS.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;990110Your setting is created just by the skills you allow your players to have. The skills are the rules for the game, which is why I stopped using GURPS.
Not if you have REAL roleplayers.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;990110Your setting is created just by the skills you allow your players to have. The skills are the rules for the game, which is why I stopped using GURPS.
Unless it is Earth-1 or Earth-616
Quote from: Koltar;989668YES....
You Can 'do it all' with just the two main books - and maybe a pdf of the character sheet handy.
Keep in mind that as GM you still have to write up a lot of stuff on your own.
- Ed C.
Gwarh, before you take the above seriously look at the user title...
BTW I like your korgoth of barbaria avatar. Cartoon network sucks for not picking that series up.
You could by WHY>!?>!?!??!?!
Look, I get that people don't like spending money, but this is your HOBBY. Be good to yourself. Don't just create stuff from whole cloth when $10 on W23 will get all you need for that one thing you just dreamed up. GURPS 4e PDFs are really really really good. Well written, useful stuff. Pick a genre, make a setting, then pick up a few things here and there to help you refine the rules to work the way you want. Level up your golf caddy bro. Get the nice balls. Get the swanky putter.
You're worth it.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;990131Gwarh, before you take the above seriously look at the user title...
BTW I like your korgoth of barbaria avatar. Cartoon network sucks for not picking that series up.
What is 'wrong' about openly preferring GURPS over other game systems?
You got a problem with honesty?
- Ed C.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;990110Your setting is created just by the skills you allow your players to have. The skills are the rules for the game, which is why I stopped using GURPS.
Seems like a weird and in any case very overstated thing to say. What do you mean? Just that you prefer games where there are levels and classes that mainly define what characters are like, and if there are skills, they're few and more like exceptions?
Quote from: estar;989954I like both. While GURPS has tons of options but for the most part once you zero in on one the specifics are short, to the point, and makes sense in light of reality or the genre.
And the Hero System powers system is just plain elegant in what it can handle.
One concern I have "is" all the options in GURPS. What I mean is are all these options useful and don't overlap as they do in HERO. Or, are they most of the time repeats of other powers/abilities like in SAVAGE WORLDS where ever damn setting book seems to reproduce powers already found in other books. Let alone the core Savage Worlds book not exactly having a full/well-rounded list of powers, advantages, disadvantages (IMO at least).
Quote from: Schwartzwald;990131BTW I like your korgoth of barbaria avatar. Cartoon network sucks for not picking that series up.
I know right! One of the great crimes of the 21st Century.
Quote from: trechriron;990167You could by WHY>!?>!?!??!?!
Look, I get that people don't like spending money, but this is your HOBBY. Be good to yourself. Don't just create stuff from whole cloth when $10 on W23 will get all you need for that one thing you just dreamed up. GURPS 4e PDFs are really really really good. Well written, useful stuff. Pick a genre, make a setting, then pick up a few things here and there to help you refine the rules to work the way you want. Level up your golf caddy bro. Get the nice balls. Get the swanky putter.
You're worth it.
Haha I know. I have a huuuuge RPG collection so buying new books is not an issue for the most part. It's more just a curiosity/elegance thing. I like a system that is a toolkit and said toolkit lets you create/do almost any setting you come up with. To me HERO is that system and I own tons of HERO books beyond the core for every edition of the game. I'll eventually do the same for GURPS I suspect, but if the core 2 books have all the building blocks that is cool IMO.
Quote from: Koltar;990211What is 'wrong' about openly preferring GURPS over other game systems?
You got a problem with honesty?
- Ed C.
You can hardly be an unbiased source, neckbeard.
Quote from: Gwarh;990529I know right! One of the great crimes of the 21st Century.
Yeah, especially when you look at some of the shit they did pick up... :mad:
BTW if you want to do some settings some gurps books are practically necessary, and gurps is infamous for referring you to other gurps products on most pages. If you want a fantasy setting gurps low tech and magic are pretty much required. For SF you kinda need ultratech.
But if you search for them on Amazon or at convention with used game dealers you can get them cheaper. Or buy a PDF.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;990542You can hardly be an unbiased source, neckbeard.
Damn, you got issues....
- Ed C.
Quote from: Gwarh;990527One concern I have "is" all the options in GURPS. What I mean is are all these options useful and don't overlap as they do in HERO.
Or, are they most of the time repeats of other powers/abilities like in SAVAGE WORLDS where ever damn setting book seems to reproduce powers already found in other books. Let alone the core Savage Worlds book not exactly having a full/well-rounded list of powers, advantages, disadvantages (IMO at least).
The short answer is that yes some things overlap and something are repeated but there are reasons.
OverlapsFor example GURPS have several system of magic. The main two are GURPS Magic which is a vanilla system of fantasy magic. Then there is Ritual Path Magic which represents a more historical take on magic. RPM is not flashy in the way GURPS Magic is. RPM also reflects more of how magic works in urban fantasy settings.
The big thing to remember is that they are both self-contained system it doubtful that a campaign with use both at the same time nor they are design to be used together. Instead they are oriented to make it easier for you to run two common type of fantasy campaign.
DuplicatesWhen this occurs it because the books is considered a standalone powered by GURPS RPG. Discworld and the Dungeon Fantasy RPG are two examples. Or the is part of the more ready to run lines like Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunters, or Action!. Even then most of it is about how to use X with the genre.
The place to begin is to figure out what you want your first campaign to be about and then ask what is useful in the GURPS line to run it. That should be your first purchases aside from core. If you only intend to get the core books then I can point out which sections and on-line resources are useful.
Quote from: Koltar;990550Damn, you got issues....
- Ed C.
Yeah I don't like pompous asses and arrogant assholes.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;990595Yeah I don't like pompous asses and arrogant assholes.
Well overcoming self-hatred is as easy as forgiving yourself and learning to love... you.
Quote from: trechriron;990627Well overcoming self-hatred is as easy as forgiving yourself and learning to love... you.
Who fucking said anything to you, shitpipe?
Quote from: Schwartzwald;990544... If you want a fantasy setting gurps low tech and magic are pretty much required. For SF you kinda need ultratech.
LOL no you don't. (First you try to tell Koltar he has no credibility because he likes GURPS, and then you post inaccurate info.)
1) GURPS Low-Tech first edition was published in 2001. What were we doing for the preceeding 2 editions and 14 years? It's all detailed background, rules and details for stuff which is greatly appreciated by people who like historical tech detail, but entirely not necessary.
2) 3e and 4e Basic Sets have Magic and Psionics rules & spells. GURPS Magic is good to get if you want to have more for that magic system, but certainly isn't required for a fantasy game.
3) Ultra-Tech is ok but it's just one set of equipment. GURPS Space, other worldbooks, or extrapolating your own stuff are other options for a sci fi game.
Quote from: Gwarh;990527One concern I have "is" all the options in GURPS. What I mean is are all these options useful and don't overlap as they do in HERO. Or, are they most of the time repeats of other powers/abilities like in SAVAGE WORLDS where ever damn setting book seems to reproduce powers already found in other books. Let alone the core Savage Worlds book not exactly having a full/well-rounded list of powers, advantages, disadvantages (IMO at least).
4e did a good job of re-integrating everything that came before and including most of it in the 4e Basic Set in an organized fashion. In addition to what estar just wrote, there might be some overlap & misalignment if you get a 3e book or an early magazine article with an earlier take on something that's been re-worked later. But 4e is probably a good place to start where they are trying to make it possible to do almost everything and have it make sense in reference to other 4e things.
If anything, I could do with less stuff in 4e because I never use supers or psi or most other weird or cinematic stuff, and there is a lot of info in the 4e Basic Set that I'm just not going to use. I'm sure it helps for people that do want to run with more of that sort of variety than I do.
The Basic Set does have some good guidelines for choosing what you want for a campaign.
Oy Vey....
To re-answer the OP - Yes, it is very possible to run GURPS 4e with just the two main hardbacks.
The GM screen package can be useful - because it includes master copy versions of the character sheets. It also has a handy conversion guide so you can convert 3rd edition characters to 4th edition easily. Unlike a very well-known other RPG system thats pretty easy to do with GURPS.
So, say for example you found a deal at a used book store on the 3rd edition books "Rogues" or "Warriors" - you can convert the characters in them for use with 4th edition in about 20 to 30 minutes time. (or less once you get used to it)
This also means that over half of the old 3rd edition GURPS books are still pretty darn usable with 4th edition. Steve Jackson Games is known for their books of that era being two thirds usable fluff and flavor text, only 30 % or less stats or game mechanics. (Their books also had damn good bibliographies in the back of them)
Also, if you find or purchase a copy of GURPS Character Assistant CD-Rom, it can be a big help with making characters and NPCs - it was for me because my brain is oriented more towards English, History, and Art and not so much Math. It helped me to see the ripple effect of certain modifiers, advantages, and disadvantages on the character sheets.
Good Luck and Have Fun with it,
- Ed C.
There's also a free PDF called GURPS Update (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/resources/4eupdate.pdf) for converting stuff from previous editions.
I use the GURPS Character Sheet (http://gurpscharactersheet.com/) to make and maintain characters. It's excellent, free and maintained.
Quote from: Skarg;990682There's also a free PDF called GURPS Update (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/resources/4eupdate.pdf) for converting stuff from previous editions.
Ah! - Thank you - that is the pdf version of what is inside the GM screen package. I forgot the correct title phrasing for the pdf version of it.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Schwartzwald;990657Who fucking said anything to you, shitpipe?
I prefer the term Fuck. Waffle. Thank you.
Quote from: trechriron;990962I prefer the term Fuck. Waffle. Thank you.
Twatwaffle. Or maybe a snowflake.
No. GURPS can't "do it all" with all of it's books, not in any edition.
Quote from: RPGPundit;991545No. GURPS can't "do it all" with all of it's books, not in any edition.
What can't it do?
Quote from: Ulairi;991766What can't it do?
My taxes!
I've never tried it, but superheroes aren't generally well thought of in GURPS from what I've heard. The system feels more suited to grounded campaigns than wild, high powered settings. Not to say it isn't possible if you have a GM who knows the trick of it, but I think most GMs would find something more specialized for something like that.
Taking into account the PDF library and the 3e library, and I can't imagine anything GURPS can't handle. It does narrative style meta mechanics with the points supplement. It has info on any imaginable setting. It supports highly tactical play, fast narrative play and various styles in between. It has mass combat rules. You can configure a ton of different magic/power systems to taste. If you like how the basic game plays, you can customize GURPS to do anything. You just need to either a) take the time to customize it or b) pick up one of the ready-to-play supplement series like Action, Monster Hunters, After the Apocalypse or Dungeon Fantasy and rock and roll. There's a lot to it but that's one of GURPS strengths.
I could be wrong, but just as Ulairi asked, I'm sincerely curious what anyone here thinks GURPS can't do? Look, the quality of that doing may not be to your particular tastes, but one person's crap is another person's treasure, right?
Quote from: RPGPundit;991545No. GURPS can't "do it all" with all of it's books, not in any edition.
I think it would be more accurate to say "GURPS can't 'do it all well' with all of it's books, not in any edition."
You can cludge the hell out of it with optional rules and so forth. Personally Supers is an awfully counter intuitive mess. It didn't have to be but it was one of those ask a "committee" projects that always turn out so badly.
So, let's talk about fixing supers. The first thing you need to accept is that super strength isn't just extended normal strength. I really think you just have to have a sliding scale optional rule. Probably going to something like lifting strength increasing by an order of magnitude for every ten points of strength. Then you give strength a x2 for 100 points like they did in first edition. That or go back and run everything from movement to power ranges on a consistent scale and method. They do suggest this as an option in Supers but the problem is that it creates incompatible characters and what is the point of using GURPS if the characters you create are incompatible with GURPS ?
When it comes to damaging vehicles, I think the best approach would be another genre emulation optional rule that reduces the armor of vehicles and their hit points.
The last thing you need to do is keep the points values low enough to avoid the problems with just doubling things for a fixed cost that inevitably comes up in GURPS.
Just got notice that my Dungeon Fantasy Box has shipped should have it by Monday next week. I will post pictures of the unboxing.
Quote from: Ulairi;991766What can't it do?
Flatter Pundit and reinforce his ego? ;)
Quote from: Ulairi;991766What can't it do?
It's not very good at being yet another D&D knockoff.
Quote from: Dumarest;992131It's not very good at being yet another D&D knockoff.
I think you'll find Dungeon Fantasy scratches that itch perfectly. And with more customization built into the rules vs. having to eyeball custom rules.
GURPS can do anything as long as you at least don't mind it playing like GURPS. If that's more feature than bug for you, well all to the good then. It's a lot like Hero System in that respect.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;992348GURPS can do anything as long as you at least don't mind it playing like GURPS. If that's more feature than bug for you, well all to the good then. It's a lot like Hero System in that respect.
I agree with this. You have a lot of options to customize your GURPS game, but in the end it's always going to feel like GURPS. That's a plus for me, but won't be if you don't like GURPS in the first place.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;992348GURPS can do anything as long as you at least don't mind it playing like GURPS. If that's more feature than bug for you, well all to the good then. It's a lot like Hero System in that respect.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;992361I agree with this. You have a lot of options to customize your GURPS game, but in the end it's always going to feel like GURPS. That's a plus for me, but won't be if you don't like GURPS in the first place.
As someone who has played and run GURPS for quite a while I agree with these sentiments, with one caveat: GURPS is capable of a much broader range of "textures" and "gut feels" in play than many give it credit for.
Certainly they're all anchored to the same absolute base mechanical foundation, however, which might have been what you are describing the 'feel' of above (in which case my comment would be at best only tangentially related to your point).
I can get bored/tired off mechanics the same way a lot of gamers can get tired of genres or settings. Nothing really wrong with the mechanics, and I might have had a lot of fun with them for years. Then suddenly something that was an occasional, minor annoyance starts to chafe something awful, like a shoe that has worn in the wrong spot. Nothing for me to do but get away from it awhile.
Playing one generic system but switching settings and genres frequently is pretty much the definition of "roleplaying hell" for me.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;992374I can get bored/tired off mechanics the same way a lot of gamers can get tired of genres or settings. Nothing really wrong with the mechanics, and I might have had a lot of fun with them for years. Then suddenly something that was an occasional, minor annoyance starts to chafe something awful, like a shoe that has worn in the wrong spot. Nothing for me to do but get away from it awhile.
Playing one generic system but switching settings and genres frequently is pretty much the definition of "roleplaying hell" for me.
That's fair. I'm close to the polar opposite; one or even just a couple flexible, solid systems with a broad variety of available settings and genres is my idea of a good time. Hackability is also a strong consideration, though that is obviously applicable to more than just generic systems.
Of course, I'll never say no to looking at or trying something new. If for no other reason than to broaden my perspective (and shamelessly steal good ideas for my own purposes).
Quote from: Antiquation!;992371As someone who has played and run GURPS for quite a while I agree with these sentiments, with one caveat: GURPS is capable of a much broader range of "textures" and "gut feels" in play than many give it credit for.
Certainly they're all anchored to the same absolute base mechanical foundation, however, which might have been what you are describing the 'feel' of above (in which case my comment would be at best only tangentially related to your point).
There can be a vast difference between how different GMs run GURPS. Not just all the different settings, but which rules are used, how they use them, and various other things, can make it play like a very different game. For example, super-detailed mapped tactical battles versus mostly-roleplaying and little/no reference to rules with an occasional skill roll translated into results by GM intuition.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;992374I can get bored/tired off mechanics the same way a lot of gamers can get tired of genres or settings. Nothing really wrong with the mechanics, and I might have had a lot of fun with them for years. Then suddenly something that was an occasional, minor annoyance starts to chafe something awful, like a shoe that has worn in the wrong spot. Nothing for me to do but get away from it awhile.
Playing one generic system but switching settings and genres frequently is pretty much the definition of "roleplaying hell" for me.
I very much get tired of a system after a while and want to change to another every so often. I can't imagine sticking to one for everything. I also stopped using Hero because every game felt the same to me; more to the point with Champions every power feels the same to me because they're all so abstracted that it really doesn't matter what the power is, it only matters how many six-sixers you get to roll against a defensive power. Not that it's a bad game if you like that; I just don't really like it much anymore. Plus I'm a believer in horses for courses: use the game that has mechanics that were designed for the genre or setting rather than try to force the genre or setting into the preexisting mechanics.
Ditto what Dumarest said. Playing the same system over and over sounds boring and trying to shoehorn ever genre into a generic system seems hopeless.
Quote from: Voros;992545Ditto what Dumarest said. Playing the same system over and over sounds boring and trying to shoehorn ever genre into a generic system seems hopeless.
I'm not sure if it's quite that simple. I tend to play A LOT of different systems, but GURPS is pretty malleable. With the use of various supplements you can dial the system up and down, in and out where it doesn't feel like the same old game in each genre/setting. A year ago I wouldn't have thought that.
Third edition's attribute costs lead to it feeling a bit more narrow, the cost increases tended to push things towards certain builds like the IQ 14, Magery 3 wizard or the 13,13,11,13 Fighter with combat reflexes.
Quote from: Dumarest;992503I very much get tired of a system after a while and want to change to another every so often. I can't imagine sticking to one for everything. I also stopped using Hero because every game felt the same to me; more to the point with Champions every power feels the same to me because they're all so abstracted that it really doesn't matter what the power is, it only matters how many six-sixers you get to roll against a defensive power. Not that it's a bad game if you like that; I just don't really like it much anymore. Plus I'm a believer in horses for courses: use the game that has mechanics that were designed for the genre or setting rather than try to force the genre or setting into the preexisting mechanics.
I like mechanics. I like playing with them and thinking about them outside of the game. This disadvantage to that is that
every mechanic begins to have that "feels the same," different paint on the same underlying structure. Which if you aren't careful, turns into "familiarity breeds contempt." I know I'm going to look behind the curtain, and I know it's eventually going to risk spoiling the experience, but I can usually compartmentalize that part while playing, and enjoy the game for whatever it is. Especially when caught up in the antics of the players. In order to maintain that separation, I have to put the game aside for some time, before I reach the "don't really like it anymore" stage.
I like Hero more than GURPS, on average, but if I were to run either of them right now, all else being equal , it would be GURPS, simply because it has been longer since I ran it. Whereas I could play either one and enjoy it.
Quote from: David Johansen;991836I think it would be more accurate to say "GURPS can't 'do it all well' with all of it's books, not in any edition."
Yes, obviously in theory it could attempt to do it all, but outside of a certain range it can't do it all WELL. GURPS is very good for low-powered stuff, including historical campaigns. The higher-powered it gets, the more clunky it becomes.
Quote from: Skarg;992495There can be a vast difference between how different GMs run GURPS. Not just all the different settings, but which rules are used, how they use them, and various other things, can make it play like a very different game. For example, super-detailed mapped tactical battles versus mostly-roleplaying and little/no reference to rules with an occasional skill roll translated into results by GM intuition.
Absolutely. While the core foundation of 3d6 roll-under remains the same, the wide variety of rules modules and campaign switches make it surprisingly easy to tweak and hone the flavor, weight and "feel" of the game in play to your table's preferences and the goals of a given campaign. Every table playing GURPS does it in very much their own way to their own ends, and I think this is a huge credit to the system's flexibility.
Another under-appreciated facet of GURPS is that you can run all kinds of different rules modules, setting switches, character options, etc. together without breaking the game in half, making it trivial to expand an existing campaign to encompass a new variety of characters and spheres of conflict and challenges without missing a beat. Whether your dungeon-delving PC's decide they want to cut the physical danger out of their lives and invest their wealth into starting a trade empire (or get awarded their own hold and they decide to raise an army and expand their keep and holdings), or aliens with psychic powers crashland in your not!WoD Monster Hunters campaign... well, just grab any rules you need/want and plug 'em in.
If you want to, you can even let players individually buy into different setting switches/toggles by character. So you could have your simplified "narritivium-powered" high-flying cinematic wuxia martial artist that uses the rules for bulletproof nudity, mook gun etiquette, flesh wounds, wildcard skills like Karate Master! and bullet time in the same campaign as the gritty peasant farmers with pitchforks, no luck advantages allowed, realistic injury rules, etc. for the "default" campaign assumptions, you can!... although the martial artist would probably pay a hefty point premium for the options, most likely including some kind of specific Unusual Background as justification. (and of course, it would require buy-in from the GM; no convoluted amalgam of rules stripped from some books will trump what flies for a given campaign and table, which should go without saying!)
Combined with more "traditional" rulings/houserules, this makes for a nearly unbeatable level of flexibility. Of course, it does require a not-insignificant amount of buy-in from the GM to learn the game to the point where he can remain flexible and understand the implications of changing or adding specific rules, and certainly there are still certain concepts that will fall outside the "sweet spot" of system competency for GURPS campaigns. But for 95% of the campaigns I'd be interested in running, as a system it does a fantastic job of replicating the feel and the objectives of whatever game type I'm interested in exploring. At a certain level of competency, the rules practically fade into nothing to the point where the person running the game is basically living and breathing it, and making a given campaign play the way you want it to becomes as easy as blinking (though of course this could be said about many other systems as well, it feels important to point this out for a system commonly perceived as overly complex).
For people who get bored with mechanics, I can certainly understand why this would be antithetical to their long-term enjoyment of any system, however. I can also easily understand the delights of simply exploring something new and different, which is a fine motivation for playing different games.
I certainly understand that a wide variety of styles can be played with GURPs, but that is true for many systems, including the old warhorse D&D. These days it seems the core still using it are very much those with an interest in crunch though, not rules light role playing.
Quote from: Voros;993271I certainly understand that a wide variety of styles can be played with GURPs, but that is true for many systems, including the old warhorse D&D.
Sure, system flexibility is hardly unique to GURPS.
Quote from: Voros;993271These days it seems the core still using it are very much those with an interest in crunch though, not rules light role playing.
Frankly, I couldn't say. I would say that the majority of GURPS discussion tends to drift in the direction of crunch, though I think that's largely in part due to the fact that if you run the system light or narrative then there's not much value in discussing crunch; giving those running the system more lightly a comparatively smaller representation in internet discussions, which might account for that perceived slant in the direction of "crunchier" games. This is also partly why you don't see many GURPS games run online as light/narrative games; if your campaign doesn't use tactical combat, you won't get much use out of something like Maptools/Roll20, so you likely won't be hosting your campaign there at all; more likely you're on Hangouts, Skype, or something like that.
I would also say that GURPS' available crunch does to some extent draw in those who desire complexity; its availability makes it attractive for that purpose.
I myself tend to run about 2/3rds of my campaigns lighter and more streamlined, leaving about 1/3rd to the heavier crunch/sim angles which I tend to reserve for campaign types where it would be most appropriate to use (from a "rules weight-to-enjoyment" standpoint; the rules should serve the campaign and not be bolted on willy-nilly simply because you can, which is a common mistake in a modular system like GURPS, BRP, even FUDGE).
As you say always hard to know for sure but I wouldn't say that those using Rules light systems aren't on Roll20. Since it continues to be the dominant online gathering place I see lots of rules light, text only games on there.
Quote from: Voros;993275As you say always hard to know for sure but I wouldn't say that those using Rules light systems aren't on Roll20. Since it continues to be the dominant online gathering place I see lots of rules light, text only games on there.
Yeah, I honestly couldn't say anything of substance one way or the other. Certainly there are some rules-light games being played using those tools; I just wanted to list a few possibly-less-obvious factors which could be contributing to the perceived crunch-heavy tendencies of the bulk of GURPS players, since my own anecdotal experiences are hardly enough to substantiate any valuable assertions.
Quote from: RPGPundit;993137Yes, obviously in theory it could attempt to do it all, but outside of a certain range it can't do it all WELL. GURPS is very good for low-powered stuff, including historical campaigns. The higher-powered it gets, the more clunky it becomes.
My belief is that the break-down point is around 600 points, where you could just buy straight 20s and call it a character. However, the more points you have the more stuff you have on your character sheet is also a problem. GURPS does have Bang! skills that let you take things like Gun! or Science! as a Very Hard x 3 skill. But it needs some similar short hand for advantages. Powers almost gets there but never makes the leap. It also needs a better rule for damage and damage resistance relative to other points values because they scale badly as written. The funny thing is that for the most part it's not the mechanics of play that break. They're pretty solid. It's the points system for character creation. Even the diehards admit that there's a point where the points are just meaningless.
Quote from: David Johansen;993277But it needs some similar short hand for advantages.
There are rules for Wildcard Powers (page 41 of GURPS Supers), in case you did not already know. I'm not saying this at all addresses "sheet bloat" in any significant way, just wanted to mention it in case you had not already looked at them as they're a nifty little tool.
Quote from: David Johansen;993277It also needs a better rule for damage and damage resistance relative to other points values because they scale badly as written. The funny thing is that for the most part it's not the mechanics of play that break. They're pretty solid. It's the points system for character creation. Even the diehards admit that there's a point where the points are just meaningless.
Yes. There are multiple instances in GURPS of scaling that breaks down at the high end; while many patches exist, few of these core issues have been addressed in satisfactory ways.
As for point value/totals, I very rarely use them even at character creation (and even in those rare cases I tend to use Point Buckets rather than a grand total). I vastly prefer "pitch me a concept, if it fits we'll put it to paper and see how it looks/tweak as necessary" as a character generation method. This can frequently end up with disparate point totals, but this never effects play in any negative way so long as everyone understands the campaign premise and how their character fits into it. In fact, properly asymmetric play has produced some extremely memorable and well-loved experiences within some of my own groups which would have been lost had we adhered to some nebulous and arbitrary point standard.