TheRPGSite

Been looking to get into GURPS but was wondering whether to go for 3rd or 4th edition.

My preference would be to go for whichever has the simplest core - let the heart of the system be the absolute basics, and have all the genre-specific stuff be stuff shepherded in on a case-by-case basis from supplements. I'm not likely to use it for a cross-genre campaign so it doesn't particularly matter to me if there's scaling problems between supplement books, but at the same time Basic Set + GURPS (Genre) should ideally cover most of the stuff I'd want to do with a particular genre and not include much stuff that quite clearly falls outside (genre), with a minimum of excess crunch.

At the moment, it seems to me that 3E plus the earlier 3E supplements seems the way to go. The inclusions of the two Compendia as core seems to have coincided with a shift to high-crunch in both the core rules and the supplement line, whilst 4E seems to include a bunch of stuff in its core rules which I would tend to prefer to delegate to genre-specific supplements. Would that be a fair assessment, or am I steering in the wrong direction?

For bonus points, what are the best GURPS supplements? In particular I am interested in those which manage to encapsulate the genre or setting they describe without having to incorporate heaps of extra crunch. (FWIW, I am not interested in GURPS Traveller except as background material because I'm happy enough with MongTrav's system, if that changes things.)

Personally I would go with GURPS 4th edition and one of the PDFs lines (Action, Monster Hunter, or Dungeon Fantasy). I feel overall 4th edition is a lot cleaner than 3rd edition.

Since you are concerned about crunch then start with GURPS 4e Lite, get the GURPS 4e Core books and only add in those elements you want to use. The same advice applies to 3rd edition.

It really boils down to what kind of campaign you are going to run. What genre will it be. That will allow me (and others) to recommend specifically what to get in GURPS.

If it is Fantasy then I recommend for 4e, Core, Magic, and Low Tech. Possibly Martial Arts if you want more combat crunch as well as Thamautology for magic options. Or take a look at the Ritual Path Magic PDF for a low key magic system.

If you want D&D style fantasy with 250 pt character go with the Dungeon Fantasy Line, if you want a more realistic fantasy go with Banestorm. A lot of Banestorm is the setting but there are templates and options that are applicable to most fantasy campaigns.

For 3e Fantasy, I recommend Core, Magic,  Bestiary, Fantasy Bestiary, Magic Items (I, II, & III) and Fantasy Folk,


As for the 3rd edition Compendium what they did was consolidate disparate rule systems and additions into two books. GURPS was always crunchy just as it was always lite. It depends on what you pick to use in your campaign.

Quote from: estar;823284As for the 3rd edition Compendium what they did was consolidate disparate rule systems and additions into two books. GURPS was always crunchy just as it was always lite. It depends on what you pick to use in your campaign.

Exactly how "core" were these additions though? It sounds like a lot of those rule systems came from the various supplement lines and I don't want a whole bunch of genre-specific stuff cluttering up the core.

The 4E core is too cluttered up with genre specific stuff IMHO.

Running a game requires more work on picking and choosing what NOT to include than any previous version.

That said, the actual 4E character building rules and some of the mechanics are a lot smoother:

1) The flat point cost for stats means not worrying about having to change point costs after play begins.

2) No more half points!!  

3) The language rules are so much better. Regardless of IQ level they still require some investment to master.

If SJ were to put out more focused genre books that included core play rules along with specific genre info then I would buy them. No need to wade through autofire rules in the combat chapter, or filter out extraneous ads/disads & skills  for a fantasy game.

Quote from: Warthur;823285Exactly how "core" were these additions though? It sounds like a lot of those rule systems came from the various supplement lines and I don't want a whole bunch of genre-specific stuff cluttering up the core.

The core 4e set is not cluttered. It's consistent. GURPS is designed as a toolkit. You take the core (roll 3d6 under a TN, based on Skill) and go from there.

Each "genre" book then shows you how to take the rules and customize them to a genre and/or introduces some new rules or options for those genres.

Estar makes sound suggestions. Start with lite, then go to the core set. Then, start grabbing supplements to tune up your game the way you want it to run.

The "ready to run" series as Estar mentioned are very good! If you want to run a high-fantasy dungeon crawling wilderness exploring class-like throwback, Dungeon Fantasy will tickle those buttons. There are now some 15+ supplements for that alone. You get PILES of advice, ideas, templates and the like to run such a game. Toss in the several issues of Pyramid focused on DF, and I think there's more pages than you could reasonably burn during a night's rest in the wedge-locked empty room on level 4.

IMHO 4e is far superior to 3rd. It's cleaned up, organized and the result of all the previous years worth of play-testing. It has multiple authors (very savvy ones I might add) who coordinated the new edition. Steve Jackson is awesome, but having multiple and coordinated perspectives I think made the books more concise.

P.S. You don't need all the fiddly bits. Just use what you want. There's already a rule for everything. Just pick and choose, focus on the setting and adventure and run with it.

P.S.S. If you hit the SJG forums, don't be distracted by the GURPS wankers who clutter up the discussion there. You will see a bunch of "fix this" or "what if we changed STR to Muscle and reversed gravity" and various pixel-bitching system tweaking whinging that makes a regular gamer go cross-eyed. GURPS is Lego for many geeks and frankly its a tragedy to GURPS. The basic game plays just fine, works as written and does NOT need any damn tweeking.

P.S.S.S. If you run a campaign take a few moments to fill out the campaign worksheet for your players. Use templates!! There is PDF that goes through the process, it's not as hard as it looks at first. Don't just hand the players the book, toss out some point totals and ask them to go wild. That always ends in tragedy. Even better, collect concepts, create a mostly finished character, discuss with your players to "tweek" it out, then go from there. As they get more comfortable, let them use XP to add new stuff or increase things.

If you handle GURPS like a boss, and have some time to invest in customization, it really is a great game.

For the system, go 4th and don't look back.

The core book handles most things from fantasy to sci-fi to at least street level supers with its selection of Advantages and Disadvantages. And they have a handy symbol chart so that you can tell at a glance which ones are suitable for the genre and tone you're going for.

It has levels of complexity. 3e presents its combat system as a whole, whereas 4e presents it in 3 different sections. One is the basic combat -- everything you need to get the job done. The others are additional rules and options you can add in if you want something more complicated/tactical.

I honestly wouldn't suggest any additional rules books up front. Powers is a great book, yes, but unless you're jumping right into higher-powered than street level supers, it's not actually necessary. The core is extremely versatile right out of the gate -- far more so than 3e.

As for setting books, use pretty much whatever you like from either edition. Most of the information from such books isn't rules-related anyway. And where there are rules things, such as stat blocks, they're almost always similar enough that you don't even have to do a conversion to use them(though there is a PDF guide on how to do so if you want).

Once you're more familiar with the system in the core, assess your needs and add books accordingly.

If you want more options with little to no rules additions, Magic and Martial Arts will give you more spells and combat tricks and stuff. Magic has no new rules that I can recall, and Martial Arts only has a couple small rules additions related to combat styles early in the book.

If you want higher powered stuff, or you want another way to model various kinds of special abilities(magic, chi, etc.) than already in the core book, or you just like to tinker, try Powers. It's a pretty intuitive system that builds on the Advantage/Disadvantage system in the core book to model various power sets. Extra rules are there, but not overwhelming.

If you really like to tinker, and you really love magic, then Thaumatology is a good choice. From what I recall, it provides a few worked-out new magic systems that you can use as an alternative to the spell-based magic presented in the core. The it also provides guidelines on making your own alternate magic systems. A very useful book when spell-based magic just isn't doing it for you(the same can be said of Powers, too).

There was a good thread on this fairly recently:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=31398

Personally I would go with 4e. It is more consistent and smooth compared to 3e. You get all the good bits of the system in the two 4e core books; getting all that takes multiple genre books in 3e and then you probably have a bunch of other stuff you will never read.

The 'best' supplement depends on what you want to do with GURPS. What are you likely to play first?

I'm going to expand on estar's comment, both GURPS Lite 3e and 4e are available as free downloads from Steve Jackson Games. I'd download both and try them both out as a start.

Third is a game you can choose to add to with supplements.

Fourth is a book of options, you'll spend 95% of your time building the laundry list of what you are NOT going to use in creating your own game from the pieces.

Quote from: trechriron;823299If you handle GURPS like a boss, and have some time to invest in customization, it really is a great game.

The Ephors reply, "If."

Quote from: CRKrueger;823323The Ephors reply, "If."

Yeah. You really need to be a BOSS. Don't get handled by GURPS! :-)

Quote from: trechriron;823356Don't get handled by GURPS! :-)

If you're open-minded, you could experiment with that. But if you feel dirty and regret it afterwards, don't say you weren't warned.

I strongly urge starting with GURPS Lite, especially if you're not a crunch fan.

For my part, I use 4th edition ... mostly.  My firm belief is that earlier edition of the Basic Set were fundamentally a fantasy game, and that 4th edition was a conscious change to fit the Infinite Worlds setting and a more high-tech setting approach generally.  So, being a firm fantasy GM, I use a number of earlier elements.  (Heck, I still use the pre-1989 missile rules.)

As far as supplements go, I'm biased in favor of my own stuff, but even so.  My caution is that the setting supplements are good for entrees into the settings, but they're the starting point for indepth work for any long-term campaign.

Fourth Edition GURPS is the best option.

 Always will be.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;823297The 4E core is too cluttered up with genre specific stuff IMHO.

Running a game requires more work on picking and choosing what NOT to include than any previous version.

See, that's exactly what I don't want - I'd rather be able to keep as much of the core as possible than be constantly telling players "no, ignore that part, we're not using it this time". A start from the minimum and add on approach rather than starting with the maximum and taking away. Sounds like Lite or maybe 3rd is the best route, particularly since I'm probably going to be using it less for high-tech/Infinite Worlds stuff.

CRKreuger seemed to hit the nail on the head in the other thread:

QuoteGURPS 4th is take the core boardgame and all the expansions, cut them up into jigsaw pieces, pour them into a huge bag, and then say "You can make whatever boardgame you want!" It's useful only to the people that are already GURPS experts. I haven't seen anyone come in to GURPS 4th cold and actually be able to run the game. Everything in two books is a feature to the decades-old veteran, it's a morass to the newbie.

I don't want to labour on kit-bashing what subset of GURPS to use for a game, I just want to take core book + supplement and get going.

Quote from: Warthur;823388I don't want to labour on kit-bashing what subset of GURPS to use for a game, I just want to take core book + supplement and get going.

It depends what type of game you mostly want to run, and how many different types of games you want to run. It also depends on whether you want some of the more detailed rules for things.

One of the challenges with 3e was that it grew organically over many years, meaning that there are different rules for doing similar (or the same) things in different supplements. So if you intend to genre hop this will either become a headache, or you will be saying "we're playing campaign X but using the gadgeteering rules from book Y" or similar.  Alternatively, you might want to play a campaign like "the Horselords but use the Martial Arts rule (but not the Chambarra rules...)".  You lose the expected benefit of having a single book plus a campaign book.

4e really gives you core + genre book (by subtraction rather than addition) since there are very few new rules in the extra books. The extra books are more about advice to create a feel for a specific campaign. Social Engineering for example is a book all about interaction between characters, but contains almost zero new rules (I think it is zero rules, but I haven't read it again recently). Instead, the book talks about different types of social encounters and how you could use the existing rules to model this. (For example, if you want to smear a political opponent, how would you go about that in GURPS terms?).

The three PDF series (Action, Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters) serve as highly detailed examples of how to build your game from GURPS, and are also fun games in their own right.

GURPS 4e is the grand piano of RPGs. You can play almost any piece on it, but unless you practice it will be tricky and have some duff notes in it. When you are proficient, however, you can easily tickle out any tune you want.

3e is a good game if you want a fantasy baseline and don't intend to bring in lots of different stuff. Or a real-world historic baseline (3e is the Emperor of historic role playing). The further you get from that baseline, or the more frequently you make genre changes, the less likely you will get a smooth gaming experience.

Quote from: Warthur;823285Exactly how "core" were these additions though? It sounds like a lot of those rule systems came from the various supplement lines

It lot like the original list of advantages, disadvantages, skills and abilities, some make sense for any genre, some don't. The Compendium was done because additional general purpose rule systems were introduced in various supplements and people were complaining about how they were scattered about the line. For example there is a expanded hit location chart in the 2nd Compendium.

Quote from: Warthur;823285I don't want a whole bunch of genre-specific stuff cluttering up the core.

That is a battle already lost with 3rd edition heck even 2nd edition. GURPS has always been a game where you have to comb through the books to build exactly what you want for your campaign. The Compendiums just compiles and organizes the additions scattered throughout the supplements giving you more options.

My personal experience with the compendiums is that I used the 2nd rules oriented book way more than the 1st character oriented book. I found them very useful and worthy additions to the line.

But if you are looking for simplicity in GURPS, you need to start with GURPS Lite and add in what you want from there.

Quote from: Warthur;823388See, that's exactly what I don't want - I'd rather be able to keep as much of the core as possible than be constantly telling players "no, ignore that part, we're not using it this time".

I am telling as a GURPS referee since the late 80s (2nd edition). That has never been an effective approach with GURPS. You always had to pick and chose what advantage, disadvantages, and skills to use. You just can't hand a person  GURPS 2nd edition or even GURPS Lite and say go make a character that will fit your campaign.

Quote from: Warthur;823388A start from the minimum and add on approach rather than starting with the maximum and taking away. Sounds like Lite or maybe 3rd is the best route, particularly since I'm probably going to be using it less for high-tech/Infinite Worlds stuff.

It would really help if you tell us the campaign you are planning to run.

You never play GURPS like you do D&D or Runequest. You figure out a campaign first and then use the GURPS rules for that campaign. The difference between GURPS Lite and the various 4e core book options is how much detail you supply for the elements of that campaign. Do you abstract it by using GURPS Lite or do you chop up the elements of the setting into their components and implement the details using the options of the core books?

Quote from: Warthur;823388CRKreuger seemed to hit the nail on the head in the other thread:

I don't want to labour on kit-bashing what subset of GURPS to use for a game, I just want to take core book + supplement and get going.

What CRKreuger fails to mention that all the GURPS Supplements tell you what set of GURPS abilities make sense for the setting or genre it covers. None, except perhaps Infinite Worlds uses everything. Even then Infinite Worlds doesn't use much of the space science fiction stuff.

And note that Infinite World originated in GURPS 3rd edition. (GURPS Time Travel).

Again nearly every referee I seen that ran a failed GURPS campaign one of the main reason is that they handed their players the core book and said to them "You can use whatever in the core book."

Quote from: Ravenswing;823380My firm belief is that earlier edition of the Basic Set were fundamentally a fantasy game, and that 4th edition was a conscious change to fit the Infinite Worlds setting and a more high-tech setting approach generally.  So, being a firm fantasy GM, I use a number of earlier elements.  (Heck, I still use the pre-1989 missile rules.)

This is pretty accurate. You can play a good, gritty fantasy-style game using nothing more than the 3rd edition Basic Set. 4th edition feels more like a toolkit to me, much closer to HERO than 3rd edition. That can be good or bad, depending on what style of game you want to run.

Quote from: Brad;823429This is pretty accurate. You can play a good, gritty fantasy-style game using nothing more than the 3rd edition Basic Set. 4th edition feels more like a toolkit to me, much closer to HERO than 3rd edition. That can be good or bad, depending on what style of game you want to run.

I agree, however with the caveat that even with 2nd edition you would be foolish to hand a player the rulebook and say "go make a character for Greyhawk" without setting some guideline as to what was allowed.

Quote from: estar;823438I agree, however with the caveat that even with 2nd edition you would be foolish to hand a player the rulebook and say "go make a character for Greyhawk" without setting some guideline as to what was allowed.

Absolutely, but I think that could even be applied to D&D.

If you have the time, 4th edition is pretty badass. If you're a lazy GM, you will just be overwhelmed and frustrated.

I have and enjoy 3rd.  Some things going for it: it works, it's a nice relatively slender volume, and there are a ton of sourcebooks available for it and generally at bargain prices. 4th scared me away by being two large books to do the job 3rd did at half the size.  I can't speak to the actual quality of 4th but I've never had any issues with 3rd.

Quote from: estar;823419What CRKreuger fails to mention that all the GURPS Supplements tell you what set of GURPS abilities make sense for the setting or genre it covers. None, except perhaps Infinite Worlds uses everything. Even then Infinite Worlds doesn't use much of the space science fiction stuff.

Yeah, and you fail to mention that the "all options in the core book model" is presented as something like 157 pages of Advantages and Disadvantages with each one branded with anywhere from 2-6 colored icons to tell someone what metadata genre tag or realism level the advantage belongs to.

Extremely useful and concise information to someone who has internalized the rules over decades of play and GMing over several editions.  A uselessly arcane and jargonistic approach to the newbie.

Unfortunately, once someone has internalized the processes and procedures of a system (no matter what that system is) it is very hard to analyze that system objectively from the perspective of a new learner, that's just Education 101.   It sounds counter-intuitive, but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS, as  none of them did it under the current system.  Running GURPS, sure.  Teaching GURPS to your players if you are a GM, yeah probably.  Learning GURPS yourself, maybe or maybe not.

Obviously, any game that has a lite version is probably the best way to introduce yourself to the concepts and core mechanics.  GURPS has always been a "make your own game" game, and despite the fact that it may be the best and easiest version to play and run once the rules are internalized, I highly doubt that 4th is the best system for a GM to teach themselves GURPS, and none of the regulars telling you that it is have actually done it themselves.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Unfortunately, once someone has internalized the processes and procedures of a system (no matter what that system is) it is very hard to analyze that system objectively from the perspective of a new learner, that's just Education 101.   It sounds counter-intuitive, but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS, as  none of them did it under the current system.  Running GURPS, sure.  Teaching GURPS to your players if you are a GM, yeah probably.  Learning GURPS yourself, maybe or maybe not.

That is an idiotic statement. I have several friends over the year who picked up GURPS 4e and learned without me or any of the local experienced players standing at their elbows. I understand exactly what the issues a newcomer experiences. And addin my experiences with gamers learning 2nd, and 3rd edition for themselves.

With GURPS 2nd edition it was easy to see how to use the game to run a fantasy roleplaying. That quit being the case starting with 3rd edition. As far as being a toolkit RPG where you have to design what rules you are going use, 3rd edition is the start of all that

In addition you ignore the fact I strongly recommended GURPS Lite at several point especially if complexity an issue.

A novice referee is fucked with GURPS 3rd edition or 4th edition if he looking for a ready to run RPG. At least with 4th edition it all there, well organized with the rough edges that popped up in 3e edition fixed. And with 4e you have the closest things (outside of Discworld or Prime Directive) that GURPS ever did to present a ready to run RPG. (Action, Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc).

I rather have a standalone GURPS Fantasy RPG (or Horror, or Sci-Fi). Failing that I would hand something the 2nd Edition Boxed Set. But because that not readily avaliable I would tell them to download GURPS Lite and if they like it get the Core books.

And damn GURPS 4e cost $60 for the two core books on Amazon. That not cheap but it not the $100+ dollars for D&D corebooks.

Quote from: estar;823504That is an idiotic statement. I have several friends over the year who picked up GURPS 4e and learned without me or any of the local experienced players standing at their elbows. I understand exactly what the issues a newcomer experiences. And addin my experiences with gamers learning 2nd, and 3rd edition for themselves.

Any game can be learned, I never said it couldn't, and that's not the question.  The question is, with so many options at this point to learn GURPS, is 4th the best one to start with?  Answer: No.

Quote from: estar;823504With GURPS 2nd edition it was easy to see how to use the game to run a fantasy roleplaying. That quit being the case starting with 3rd edition. As far as being a toolkit RPG where you have to design what rules you are going use, 3rd edition is the start of all that.

But, 4th simply takes that concept even further and doesn't even bother being a coherent game out of the box, being instead a master list of components.

2nd Edition may in fact be better than 3rd Edition for learning the core concepts and getting a basic game up and running.  However, 3rd Edition Lite Rules are easily and freely available as are 4th, so those are going to be the two main choices.

Quote from: estar;823504In addition you ignore the fact I strongly recommended GURPS Lite at several point especially if complexity an issue.

I don't ignore the fact, and said obviously any Lite version would be better for the completely uninitiated.  What I specifically reject is your contention that the 4th Edition practice of front-loading genre options into core rules is better for learning than 3rd Edition.  Is it better for the "create your game" process? Probably - most definitely if you already know all the rules.  Is it better for the GM running a game once the "build" process is completed?  Probably, not arguing that.

I'm just arguing new GURPS people get referred to 4th, which just seems asinine to me.  You do refer people to GURPS Lite.  However, if someone was going to buy the book and jump in, 4th seems worse from the perspective of the initial learning process than 3rd.

Quote from: estar;823504A novice referee is fucked with GURPS 3rd edition or 4th edition if he looking for a ready to run RPG.

Yet 3rd is closer to the 2nd Edition presentation than 4th is, so by your own logic, a novice referee will be even more fucked with 4th than 3rd.

Quote from: estar;823504At least with 4th edition it all there, well organized with the rough edges that popped up in 3e edition fixed.

Yeah, a great and comprehensive encyclopedia of rules for every genre and setting...if you ever learn to play the damn thing (which is the point we're discussing).

Quote from: estar;823504And with 4e you have the closest things (outside of Discworld or Prime Directive) that GURPS ever did to present a ready to run RPG. (Action, Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc).

Which only further distances the 4th Rulebook as what you should start with.  4th Core should basically be the last thing you use to try and learn GURPS as it's not really designed for learning the game at all.

Quote from: estar;823504I rather have a standalone GURPS Fantasy RPG (or Horror, or Sci-Fi). Failing that I would hand something the 2nd Edition Boxed Set. But because that not readily avaliable I would tell them to download GURPS Lite and if they like it get the Core books.

Ok, but again, if the presentation of 2nd is your preferred teaching method, then 3rd would be closer to that in its presentation both in Lite form or Core form than 4th is.  Anything that makes 3rd less useful to teaching than 2nd, makes 4th even less useful because it's just the "build a game" concepts of 3rd fully realized.

Quote from: estar;823504And damn GURPS 4e cost $60 for the two core books on Amazon. That not cheap but it not the $100+ dollars for D&D corebooks.

Non-sequitur as I don't think anyone ever mentioned price, but ok.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Yeah, and you fail to mention that the "all options in the core book model" is presented as something like 157 pages of Advantages and Disadvantages with each one branded with anywhere from 2-6 colored icons to tell someone what metadata genre tag or realism level the advantage belongs to.

To "code" the advantages or the disadvantages used in the worst case up to three signs (which are clearly explained at the beginning of the relative chapter). Please note that these icons are just suggestions since most entries are pretty much self explanatory.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Extremely useful and concise information to someone who has internalized the rules over decades of play and GMing over several editions.  A uselessly arcane and jargonistic approach to the newbie.

Labelling an advantage as social rather than phisical, for example, doesn't seem to me neither "arcane" or "jargonistic" to me, but rather "obvious". Categorizing a list is done for easy of reference of the prospective reader, not to show him up.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Unfortunately, once someone has internalized the processes and procedures of a system (no matter what that system is) it is very hard to analyze that system objectively from the perspective of a new learner, that's just Education 101.   It sounds counter-intuitive, but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS, as  none of them did it under the current system.  Running GURPS, sure.  Teaching GURPS to your players if you are a GM, yeah probably.  Learning GURPS yourself, maybe or maybe not.

Interesting, so someone who really knows a game, who's an expert on the matter is the least qualified to learn from! Guess that learning D&D from Gygax must have been a gruelling experience...

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Obviously, any game that has a lite version is probably the best way to introduce yourself to the concepts and core mechanics.  GURPS has always been a "make your own game" game, and despite the fact that it may be the best and easiest version to play and run once the rules are internalized, I highly doubt that 4th is the best system for a GM to teach themselves GURPS, and none of the regulars telling you that it is have actually done it themselves.

You may doubt it, but it' so. The mistakes you may do running 4th are the very sames you could do running 3rd: allowing too many points, trying to use everything and so on so forth, but those depends on the GM not onthe game itself.
Gurps 4th edition is much clearer and better explained than third edition has ever been.

And yes, you can teach yourself GURPS. I did with 3rd when I discovered it in the late nineties. So did a couple of my friends, and one of them exactly with 4th ed. Since none of us are geniuses, if we did learn Gurps, I don't see why OP could not do it.

To the OP: Have a look to Gurps lite, it's free and easy to find. It's a good gateway. If you ever wind up trying the whole game, remember that Gurps is a game where rules are really versatile: you first build the setting and then choose which rules to use.
It may seem a complicated game, but it's really easy.

Rob rate the following games in order of ease of learning GURPS in your opinion.
3rd Lite
4th Lite
3rd Core
4th Core
4th Specific Game (Dungeon Fantasy, etc).

Quote from: Cornelius;823508Interesting, so someone who really knows a game, who's an expert on the matter is the least qualified to learn from! Guess that learning D&D from Gygax must have been a gruelling experience...

Knowledge of the subject matter doesn't give you any ability to pass it on.  Two separate skills.  The brilliant person who is a subject matter expert who is unable to successfully train others is so common it's practically a cliché. Also when the game master says "Roll the dice and I'll tell you what happens" the learning process can be extended over a great period of time. However, learning from a person is immaterial because that's not the question being discussed.

Show me a GURPS guru on this site, I'll show you someone who learned with 2nd Edition or earlier and knew all the rules before they got to 3rd, or 4th, so when it comes to actually learning the game from 4th, ironically they have zero experience.

Quote from: Cornelius;823508And yes, you can teach yourself GURPS.

Of course you can, if people play Phoenix Command, they can play GURPS.  Is 4th core the best way to learn it though?  Is 4th Lite better than 3rd Lite? That's the question.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Knowledge of the subject matter doesn't give you any ability to pass it on.  Two separate skills.  The brilliant person who is a subject matter expert who is unable to successfully train others is so common it's practically a cliché.

Knowledge of a subject means that you know what you're talking about and gives you a fair chance to pass it on others, while ignorance on the same subject means that you have NO chance at all of passing anything worth.
Would you rather learn basic maths from a qualified teacher or from someone who has never studied it?

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Also when the game master says "Roll the dice and I'll tell you what happens" the learning process can be extended over a great period of time. However, learning from a person is immaterial because that's not the question being discussed.

A part from the passage where you claimend that:

 "but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS"

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Show me a GURPS guru on this site, I'll show you someone who learned with 2nd Edition or earlier and knew all the rules before they got to 3rd, or 4th, so when it comes to actually learning the game from 4th, ironically they have zero experience.

Of course on this site you won't find experienced Gurps masters. Not only lots of people here started to play in the 80's (or so seemed to me reading the posts) and so could get exposed to Gurps early, but this is a forum dedicated mainly to OSR like games. If you head over to Steve Jackson forums I've no doubt that you'll find many people that started with 4th ed.

Besides, according to your theory, most people here could not advise a newbie on D&D 5th, because they learned D&D before the current edition.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Of course you can, if people play Phoenix Command, they can play GURPS.  Is 4th core the best way to learn it though?  Is 4th Lite better than 3rd Lite? That's the question.

In my opinion (which, of course, you're free to cosider unworthy) 4th Lite is overall better than 3rd. But since both are still available (unless I'm mistaken) the OP can make up his own idea.

Quote from: Cornelius;823535...... so could get exposed to Gurps early, but this is a forum dedicated mainly to OSR like games. If you head over to Steve Jackson forums I've no doubt that you'll find many people that started with 4th ed.

BULLSHIT.

 This Forum is dedicated to ALL Role Playing Games - Not just 'OSR'.

It just seems otherwise because that's who is talking the most recently.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;823542BULLSHIT.

 This Forum is dedicated to ALL Role Playing Games - Not just 'OSR'.

It just seems otherwise because that's who is talking the most recently.


- Ed C.

Yet D&D and its ilk seem to take the lion' share of the discussions, at least when a system is actually named.

Anyway, since you've been here longer than me...

Quote from: Cornelius;823546Yet D&D and its ilk seem to take the lion' share of the discussions, at least when a system is actually named.

Anyway, since you've been here longer than me...

D&D and its relatives do get the bulk of the attention... as probably happens in most RPG forums that are open to all systems. But there are a number of people here who don't play D&D at all.
If you start up a thread about another system there is usually a crowd who will happily join in.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823509Rob rate the following games in order of ease of learning GURPS in your opinion.

3rd Lite* or 4th Lite
4th Core
4th Specific Game (Dungeon Fantasy, etc).
3rd Core

*If you are going learn GURPS both are a wash in my opinion. If you are only going to use GURPS Lite for Fantasy then 3e Lite is better as it is a more complete game for Fantasy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507But, 4th simply takes that concept even further and doesn't even bother being a coherent game out of the box, being instead a master list of components.

3rd edition has the same issue.

2nd Edition may in fact be better than 3rd Edition for learning the core concepts and getting a basic game up and running.  However, 3rd Edition Lite Rules are easily and freely available as are 4th, so those are going to be the two main choices.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507I'm just arguing new GURPS people get referred to 4th, which just seems asinine to me.  You do refer people to GURPS Lite.  However, if someone was going to buy the book and jump in, 4th seems worse from the perspective of the initial learning process than 3rd.

Most of the recommendations I see are to read GURPS 4e Lite first then jump into the core. And the thing is while are talking novice GURPS gamers we are not talking about novice gamers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507Yet 3rd is closer to the 2nd Edition presentation than 4th is, so by your own logic, a novice referee will be even more fucked with 4th than 3rd.

That true of mechanics but in terms of mechanics and what they tried to pack in there it is a toolkit RPG. All your complaints about 4e's presentation I heard about 3e and the trouble you speak about with 4e I saw happened with experienced gamer trying to master 3e. With 2e there was just simply less and skewed to fantasy.

My opinion that starting with 3e GURPS became a toolkit RPG in every aspect. That if you going to attempt climb the GURPS learning curve after mastering Lite then might as well go with 4e which has a better design and better presentation than 3e.

It not like radically better, except for extra-ordinary powers, but better enough to warrant my recommendation.






 

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507Yeah, a great and comprehensive encyclopedia of rules for every genre and setting...if you ever learn to play the damn thing (which is the point we're discussing).

That is what Lite for and has been for since 3e.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507Which only further distances the 4th Rulebook as what you should start with.  4th Core should basically be the last thing you use to try and learn GURPS as it's not really designed for learning the game at all.

I agree and argue vigorously over on the SJ Game forum around 2008 or so. They weren't interested then and still not interested although I figured that the success of Dungeon Fantasy would make them see the value of all in one fantasy RPG powered by GURPS. But by DF 7 or 8 it was obvious they weren't interested in that.

And while i like Dungeon Fantasy Sean Punch choose to go for over the top fantasy of 250 points instead of 150 points which most of us were playing up to that point.

Quote from: Cornelius;823546Yet D&D and its ilk seem to take the lion' share of the discussions, at least when a system is actually named.

Anyway, since you've been here longer than me...

D&D takes the lion's share of anything RPG related, like it or not. Personally not a game I think is very good, but it's the longest running, most famous, and most popular.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823322Fourth is a book of options, you'll spend 95% of your time building the laundry list of what you are NOT going to use in creating your own game from the pieces.

Um, no. In a later post, you even admit you know about the little symbols by the Ads and Disads and what they're for, so I don't know why you even said this. Those alone make it more like 1% of your time, 2% tops, to do this. You'll pick your tone and genre, and then you'll go through the key to see which symbols are likely not appropriate for your game, and finally which level of complexity of the combat system you'll be using. Then you'll let the players know with a pitch. Perhaps something like the following:

"X genre. Y tone. Z complexity of combat. Head and lightning bolt symbols not allowed. If you think you have a good reason to allow an exception, let me know and I'll review it. Appropriate skills should be obvious, but feel free to ask me if you're unsure about something."

Easy peasy. Within a few minutes, you've already narrowed down the Ad/Disad list considerably, and you won't even have to look at any of the prima facie disallowed stuff unless a player brings it up. Now you can get on with the task of actually doing your adventure prep.

I dabbled in 3e, but really jumped in with 4e. That's were I dug in and learned the system. I had never touched GURPS before (3e) that except to move it aside as I shopped for my games. :-)

I am also not a "guru". I know enough to run/play GURPS, and create a setting, power structure, etc. I wouldn't tweak actual rules. There's already rules for pretty much everything, with options and ideas on how to apply them.

I don't get all the arguments about broken STR, etc.

I do feel like 4e is organized well and easy to find stuff. I really appreciated the color-coding, icons, indices, and tight writing. Sure, it's a technical manual in some respects, but as a computer nerd I can tell you it's a very well done technical manual. You can tell by reading it much thought when into every paragraph.

Quote from: trechriron;823664Sure, it's a technical manual in some respects, but as a computer nerd I can tell you it's a very well done technical manual.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;823610Easy peasy.

Technical Manual I'll agree with.  Concisely well-written and indexed technical manual - I'll give you that one too.  "Easy peasy" is relative, so I'll just let the viewer decide.  Advantages and Disadvantages alone are 134 pages of this:
(https://ue9cwg.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2plQnam301lxhH6icT3dAxd_UU60VW6Fnlcysgyj4_o3t6Cooh3cQbXyMdH3IXQ7n8bBNaRB3U3yu_UDfUtYPgQ9tzgE3NYcdxsWTZOpRT5sZHvG9Apr0PzSkQmS6BknMU37KwRy4ZgcdPEbnsJTnYoA/Clipboard04.jpg?psid=1)
Two, three minutes tops, right?

Quote from: estar;823584If you are only going to use GURPS Lite for Fantasy then 3e Lite is better as it is a more complete game for Fantasy.

Anything not modern, I would say, but I agree about Fantasy.

Quote from: estar;823590That if you going to attempt climb the GURPS learning curve after mastering Lite then might as well go with 4e which has a better design and better presentation than 3e.

Ok, once you know GURPS and have mastered the Lite version, 4th is better laid out for GM's who know what the hell they are doing, but stick to a Lite version to learn, and for some genre's 3rd Lite is more complete than 4th.  I think we're in agreement on these points.

I think GURPS really gets more heat than it deserves. It really isn't that complicated. Just look at GURPS Vehicles for the third edition, it's a great place for beginners to start.






....couldn't resist

There's always the GURPS for Dummies book: http://www.amazon.com/GURPS-For-Dummies-Adam-Griffith/dp/0471783293 (Amazon link)

Quote from: TheFailedSave;823683I think GURPS really gets more heat than it deserves. It really isn't that complicated. Just look at GURPS Vehicles for the third edition, it's a great place for beginners to start.

Absolutely!

[ATTACH]1054[/ATTACH]

Quote from: CRKrueger;823670Two, three minutes tops, right?

The fallacy of your argument that GURPS was never a two, three minutes tops type of game even in 2nd edition. While I feel of all the core books of GURPS, 2nd edition is the easiest, it is a relative assessment to the later editions. Compared to other RPGs, GURPS always required an investment of time to get up to speed with.

Even You, yes You, Learn To Play GURPS (no really...)

GURPS is a roleplaying game that can be used to play just about any character in just about any story of just about any type.  That makes the rules look pretty scary but they're built on some pretty simple concepts and once you get that it's easy.

Characters are built on a number of points.  A minor hero would usually be built on around 150 points.

Attributes
Your character has four Attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Health.  There are also four Sub Attributes: Hit Points, Perception, Will Power, and Fatigue.  A rating of five is crippling, ten is average, fifteen is rare and exceptional and eighteen might happen once in a generation of six billion people.  All the Attributes start out with a rating of ten.  Strength and Health cost ten points for each additional point and Intelligence and Dexterity cost twenty points for each additional point because they affect so many skills.  Hit Points are automatically equal to the character's Strength and cost two points.  Perception and Will Power start out equal to Intelligence and cost 5 points.  Fatigue is equal to Health and costs three points.

Their movement rate is their Dexterity plus Health divided by four.  Keep the fraction as it is used to break ties.

Advantages and Disadvantages
Advantages and disadvantages allow the purchase of specific special abilities and limitations.  You can get extra points for taking disadvantages but don't go crying to the game master if your character dies as a result.  Really they're supposed to shape your character and make them more interesting but trying to get everything you can out of them is giving the game master a licence to pick on you.

Skills
They will also have skills which are rated on a similar scale.  Most skills have an initial score base on one of the Attributes minus four.  It's easy to pick up a little of a skill with a course or two or some relevant experience so skills can be brought up to their associated Attribute by spending a single point.  The next point after that costs two character points and every point after that costs four.  As some skills are easier or harder there is a skill difficulty modifier.  Average skills are one point lower, Hard skills minus two, and Very Hard Skills Minus Three.

Success Rolls
You need to roll a total that is equal to or under the Attribute or Skill rating on three six-sided dice to succeed.  A roll of three is always a critical success, this happens one in two hundred and sixteen rolls.  A roll of four is always a success and is a critical success if your skill is greater than 14. (actually, I need to look this up, it's not just score -10 in 4e)  A roll of seventeen always fails and a roll of eighteen is always a critical failure.

Sometimes you will need to subtract your roll from your rating to find a margin of success.  Particularly in contests where you want to know who won.

Combat Sequence
Combat happens in short, one second rounds.  This basically means that if you need to use the word "and" to describe what your character does it probably takes more than one round to do it.  You have to draw a weapon that takes a full action unless you have a Fast Draw skill for the weapon in which case you can roll to do it for free.  Actions are taken in order of movement rates.  

Attacking
Normally you can take one step and make one attack on your turn.  Your character can make a half move and a melee attack with a plus four to hit, attack twice, or make a really hard swing for plus two to damage by sacrificing your defenses for the round.  This is a very bad idea unless you're absolutely sure your character's opponent won't be able to fight back when they are done.

Your attack hits if you can make a success roll for the specific weapon skill for the weapon you are using.  Many skills have a small two point default difference so you don't really need to develop skill in rifles and pistols if you're really good with one of them.  On a critical success your opponent cannot make a defense roll to avoid your attack.

Missile attacks are quite varied.  The penalty for range may seem very steep but if you take an action to Aim you get a bonus equal to the Accuracy of the weapon.  You can get another plus one to hit for each of two more rounds of aiming and yet another for sacrificing any chance to defend yourself.

Defense Rolls
When an attack hits your character they can make a defense roll to deflect it.  Dodges are based on their movement rate plus three modified for encumbrance.  If the character backs away from a melee attack or goes prone to dodge a ranged attack, they get a three point bonus.  Weapons can parry melee attacks with half of the character's skill plus three, if they step back while doing so, they get a plus one, some particularly fast weapons like rapiers and martial arts moves get a plus three for retreating.  Shields are used to block.  They get half their skill plus three plus another bonus based on the size of the shield.  Blocking while retreating a step gives a one point bonus.  

Damage
Damage is tracked as Hit Points.  These are based on your Strength, not your Health because a Tyrannosaurus Rex has a lot of hit points but can still catch a cold. Your damage with primitive weapons is based on your Strength.  It is looked up on a table and modified by the weapon you use.  You have a basic Swing damage value representing the extra force leverage adds to your blow and a Thrust damage representing the force you can apply quickly and directly.  Your punch damage is your Thrust damage minus two.

Armor has Damage Resistance which is subtracted from the amount of damage you rolled.  Most weapons have a damage multiplier that is applied after armor is subtracted.  Edged weapons do Cutting damage which is multiplied by 1.5 as are large caliber firearms.  Piercing weapons and really big guns do Impaling damage which is multiplied by 2 or 3 if the attack hits the target's vital organs.

If your character takes more Hit Points than they have they are in danger of falling unconscious and must make a Health roll each round or fall unconscious.  If they take more than twice their hit points they are in danger of dying and must make a Health roll each round or die.  If they take more than six times their Hit Points they are dead for sure.  If they take eleven times their  Hit Points their body is destroyed completely.  This rule even applies to objects like ropes and battle ships.

Anyhow, there's a rough draft for people to pick at.  I wouldn't want it to be much longer or detailed but I'm sure I've made dozens of little errors that need fixed.  It's a primer not a manual.

The issue with strength is most effect oriented abilities move up on a doubling scale like Enhanced Move, Range Enhancements and so on.  Whereas Strength doesn't.  It's easier to mind control then entire world than it is to lift a tank.

Super Effort Strength kind of fixes this but it does it in a messy and cludgy manner that does model what is seen in comics pretty well but seems really stupid when there were simpler and more elegant ways it could have been implemented.

Eeeesh.  So has anyone settled how many angels can dance on the head of a pin yet?

That being said, a few stray comments:

* Like Estar, I'm wondering what it takes to get some folk to understand the sentence "I strongly recommend starting with GURPS Lite."  Flattery?  Bribery?  Remission of sins?  72 virgins in Paradise?  You'd think we'd never said it for the impact it seems to have had.

* Sure, CRK, I'll grant you this much: the great majority of GURPS players and GMs learned the system in earlier iterations of the Basic Set.  So stipulated.

So what?  That's like saying that no one can have a material opinion on how hard it is to learn 5th edition D&D, simply because the overwhelming number of D&D players didn't start with 5th edition.

That's bullshit, and you should know it.

I've taught players unfamiliar with GURPS how to do 4th edition.  I've taught BSIII.  I've taught BSII.  I've taught BSI.  And hell, I was one of the thirty lucky bastards who got handed a couple of spiral-bound books and asked to GM the system cold in playtest.  No biggie: I've learned dozens of systems over the years, from OD&D on forward.

A lot of people out there can say much the same, and as far as learning new systems go by now, the many gamers who've been in this hobby for decades have figured it the fuck out.

Are games harder to learn nowadays?  That's defensible: page counts for damn near every major longstanding, multi-edition game have catapulted.

Is GURPS?  Well, for the alleged extreme difficulty of 4th edition, exactly what's changed?  Did the number of stats double?  Are there vastly more or vastly fewer skills?  Are there no longer Contests of Skills?  Have there been major changes in how damage works?  How stats govern skills?  Do we no longer roll under a certain number on 3d6 to do things?  Does GURPS work with percentiles now, or exploding dice pools, or bennies?

Nope.  It's been tweaked.  There are organizational changes.  There's full-color, slick interior pages and better illos.  Stats have different math and a straight-line progression.  A few other things.  This is not a radically different system.

Fourth edition is generally simpler than third.  It just has a high information density.  I've maintained that GURPS Lite needs some genre specific supplements to maximise its effectiveness, for a long time now.

It isn't as much about the system as the presentation.

GURPS 4th has less books containing the core-ish rules. So less book hopping. But it is still GURPS in a nutshell.

I think that if you're not a total fanatic of either yet, GURPS 3e and 4e are both sufficiently similar that the main factor in choosing should probably be which sourcebooks you can get your hand on and which ones you'd want to use.  3e had a lot more licensed settings, for example, as well as some very excellent historical setting books.

Quote from: RPGPundit;824806I think that if you're not a total fanatic of either yet, GURPS 3e and 4e are both sufficiently similar that the main factor in choosing should probably be which sourcebooks you can get your hand on and which ones you'd want to use.  3e had a lot more licensed settings, for example, as well as some very excellent historical setting books.

To this I will add that even if you go with 4E, the 3E historical setting books are still useful. The bulk of the book will be useful as is, only NPC stats will need adjustments.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;824866To this I will add that even if you go with 4E, the 3E historical setting books are still useful. The bulk of the book will be useful as is, only NPC stats will need adjustments.

Exactly.  Honestly, gamers are far, far, far, far too hung up on conversion issues, and make them out to be vastly more difficult than they need to be.

For my part, I've cribbed some Pathfinder setting materials.  Of course the stats aren't expressed in GURPS terms.  But who cares?  Not being a moron, I can figure out -- quite easily -- how relatively tough a certain character is, what her attributes and abilities are, that sort of thing.  I can -- quite easily -- express that in GURPS terms.  No muss, little fuss.

I'm going to point out one issue with GURPS that's actually what I feel is the main problem with the system at the entry level: you actually have to read the rulebook to figure the game out, and reading the rulebook can be an onerous task since so much of the Characters book in 4E is embedded with genre-specific advantages and disadvantages.

Actually learning the basics of how to play GURPS is trivial since you can grab 4E or 3E Lite and figure it out pretty quick, but moving from that to the core (for either edition) requires a bit of effort. 3E has the advantage that it's core is still reduced to a specific set of advantages, disadvantages and skills most common to a sort of "modern/historical baseline" with most of the additional material in supplements or the Compendiums I and II. 4E is effectively just the 3rd edition core plus the Compendiums I and II combined, with a cleanup of various rules which are on the surface minor changes but actually made some decent improvements. So if you think of 4E's two books as "GURPS 3E+the two compendiums" in equivalence it's not bad. I know that during my 3E days I had to use at least CI and much of CII for most of my active gaming, so to me core 3E was effectively three books.

However, to get back to my point that you actually have to read GURPS core to appreciate it, what I mean is that it really doesn't gel for most as a system until you've really immersed yourself in the rules and mechanics and taken some time to figure it out, or at least try to get the principles behind it and....most importantly....understand just how much of GURPS core is designed to be optional. For example, all the core combat rules you need are actually at the end of GURPS Characters. You can use those rules as presented and never have to expand into the options in GURPS Campaigns if you don't want, even if you use everything else in GURPS Campaigns to provide equipment and other options. The game will not break, although your game will feel different in tone and pace from the guy who's running a gritty Spec Ops campaign with all combat options turned ON.

Most gamers today (and for the last decade or two) are more used to "reference book" formats for rules....rules you basically get and then skim for the parts you need as you go along. GURPS is a reference book, too....but you need to know what you're looking for to find it, essentially....and to do that you need to get good and familiar with the core rules, regardless of whether its 3rd or 4th edition. That's very counter-intuitive to a generation raised on D20 system mechanics where every set of rules runs on the same core principles with a "need to know" design. Plus, most other RPGs usually give you a messy set of tools to build stuff, but tons of front-loaded premade content. GURPS is the reverse: a very clean set of building tools, but you need to dig into the genre books to find any premade content--at least in 4th, which really leans on the very useful template/archetype system to help players out.

Actually, to the OP: if your goal is to make life easier for your players, it makes more sense to go with 4E since it really did expand on and make templated archetypes extremely easy to use. The concept was punched around to varying degrees in 3E, but the format in 4E actually makes the GM's life much easier when it comes to introducing new players.

Quote from: Ravenswing;824880Exactly.  Honestly, gamers are far, far, far, far too hung up on conversion issues, and make them out to be vastly more difficult than they need to be.

For my part, I've cribbed some Pathfinder setting materials.  Of course the stats aren't expressed in GURPS terms.  But who cares?  Not being a moron, I can figure out -- quite easily -- how relatively tough a certain character is, what her attributes and abilities are, that sort of thing.  I can -- quite easily -- express that in GURPS terms.  No muss, little fuss.

I run GURPS Fantasy and have a bunch of template describing people from various walks of life at different levels of experiences. So when a D&D module says there are two city guards at a gate, I just use the guard template that has the closest set of gear to the module's description. If a NPC is describe as an experience court wizard, I have  a template for that.

With this in hand it is pretty easy to just grab anything and run with it.

Does it play the same as the original. No it doesn't. It usually winds up being grittier and more "realistic" feeling than the original especially if it is a D&D module. For example a 50 point city guard could manage to get a critical to the vitals and end your day right there.

One key trick for a novice GURPS referee is to build a binder of these templates

Quote from: Exploderwizard;824866To this I will add that even if you go with 4E, the 3E historical setting books are still useful. The bulk of the book will be useful as is, only NPC stats will need adjustments.

I don't play GURPS anymore. But I still have most of the sourcebooks that came out for it that I refer to a lot for my other RPG.

Quote from: camazotz;824890So if you think of 4E's two books as "GURPS 3E+the two compendiums" in equivalence it's not bad.

The one thing that made me upgrade from 3rd to 4th edition was the re-arranging re-defining of the Strength, Fatigue, Health, and Hit-Points and how they work. They kind of bothered me how past editions used them. Then I dropped out of GURPS entirely about 9 years ago. But continued buying just the sourcebooks.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;824866To this I will add that even if you go with 4E, the 3E historical setting books are still useful. The bulk of the book will be useful as is, only NPC stats will need adjustments.

Yup, absolutely true. On the whole the two editions are still very similar to each other, particularly from the point of view of someone who isn't a hardcore GURPS fan.

Really, the biggest change is in the points costs.  The ratings are largely compatible it's just the points values will be off.

Given that GURPS is a points driven game that derives its balance from point totals some may feel this is an absolute catastrophe.

Quote from: David Johansen;825253Really, the biggest change is in the points costs.  The ratings are largely compatible it's just the points values will be off.

Given that GURPS is a points driven game that derives its balance from point totals some may feel this is an absolute catastrophe.

Which is a misnomer. Points only balance characters at creation. It's a mechanism for fairness. Trying to use that as a yardstick measuring bad guys is going to be time-consuming and painful. Most of the GM's you read about on the SJG forums approximate numbers for key stats and go from there (for foes, NPCs...).

Some people on the forums don't think anyone should ever have an Attribute over 12.  Really, the stat normalizers very nearly ruin the sjg forums.

Personally the make the points balance or die is more of a HERO thing.  GURPS is a little looser than that.

I'm no GURPS Guru, but I do love 3e for low mana fantasy. I found it very simple to run for a group of players who had never done any roleplaying before. I helped them make the characters they wanted (a knight, a squire, a Drizzit clone, and a thugish Thief) then played in a very 'tell me what you do and I'll tell you what to roll' style. The skills, and especially the defaults, worked very well for that type of play.

I took a look at 4e when it came out, but couldn't get into it 3e isn't exactly the most exciting read, but 4e was drier than a camel's arsehole. Not sure why I didn't grokk it, maybe I'm just comfortable with my battered copy of 3e. Anyway, going back to Warthur's OP and based on his responses I'd say 3e is the way to go.

If people want a tool to help with eye-balling encounter difficulty in GURPS 4e then the latest edition of Pyramid magazine has something for you (Link (http://www.warehouse23.com/products/pyramid-number-3-77-combat))

Quote from: Weru;825429I'm no GURPS Guru, but I do love 3e for low mana fantasy.

It's probably what GURPS is most good at.

Cosmetically, I love the look and feel and layout of 3rd Edition Basic. It feels warm and cozy and makes you want to delve in and discover its secrets. 4th edition lacks this appeal, reflecting the labcoat scientist that permeates Sean's being - but it's obviously more comprehensive. He and the team did a super job with the huge task they had to accomplish. The hardcover books in the series I must say, look amazing on the shelf and are still all fun to read.

Without the solo and Caravan adventure built in, 4e becomes anathema to a new convert. Like...how does this all fit?? GURPs is magic in its simplicity of mechanics. Once people see it, they seldom find anything else satisfactory.

One thing I also liked about 3e was the Random Character generator (but I'm a super fan of playing random everything, thank you EasyGurps). Make a human character for any genre and GO. Sometimes, this is the best way for a GM to get a GURPS group going. Roll 'em up and do a one-shot. Once they LIKE playing, they'll want and enjoy putting the time into a character. But, GURPS can be deadly sometimes esp for beginners - so random allows for generation without too much investment should it all go south.
Also, solo gaming is really taking off as a hobby of its own now.

So 4e lost a lot of "ease of entry".
I love DF but don't love it.

WHY CALL IT DUNGEON FANTASY IF THAT LINE ALREADY EXISTS??
You just created a good degree of confusion.

Why the 250 point character start? Starting off as super warriors without earning it isn't fun. I guess Sean wanted to show off the capabilities of the system. His sarcastic or irreverent tone talking down to the genre makes it an annoying read. If reaching newer D& D players was the goal with this box, why act as if it's all dumb but hey here you go? They haven't been around since the 80's.

But I'll take the presentation and distillation.



I was wondering if it is possible for GURPS  to do a universal "basic box" with a solo.
4E is "complete", but just needs a better point of entry, and less clinical approach and layout. Go back to warm and fuzzy 3e style.

Maybe TFT could be repacked as a basic fantasy start for GURPS (which it is, really) It's a much faster entry and start up.

I think the reasoning behind the 250 point characters is that people won't be playing long campaigns.  Also, 100 point GURPS characters spend a lot of time healing up after just a couple combats.

D&D's had this weird thing where dungeons were safer than the wilderness and player characters engaged with dungeon crawls because they were structured to be challenging relative to the character's level.

Personally, Dungeon Fantasy isn't what I'd have done, a GURPS Lite Fantasy Supplement would be my way of attracting new players, but then I don't own SJG.  Of course, Dungeon Fantasy isn't really aimed at new players, its aimed at the existing fanbase which is, I imagine, good business sense.  Something I have none of.

I have 3rd ed myself and a friend has 4th. I prefer easy solutions rather than tons of options, and I always thought 4th edition was a bloated mess that I wouldn't want. 3rd edition was really straightforward to get into.

That impression, whether it's true or not (and I believe it mostly is) is 4th edition's greatest weakness.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 14, 2015, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: Weru;825429I'm no GURPS Guru, but I do love 3e for low mana fantasy.

It's probably what GURPS is most good at.

Guns, Guns, Guns!

GURPS is the best system, from a crunch perspective (IMO), for modern gun-centric games, including war settings.

Honestly, it's probably the best system for a gladiator style game, too.

Edit: For whatever the reason, I've found 3e more suited to my tastes and needs as time has passed. Low-Tech and High-Tech are two of my favorite sourcebooks.

I tend to use it as a wargame for RPG's, honestly.

As noted in a few older threads.

I have 3e and while I may not like gurps, 3e is the one I like. It feels more... complete? Like 4e is missing something?

 Wow! -  the thread start of this one is really old....

As for me - I still run 4th edition GURPS.
The 'half points' in 3rd edition never made much sense to me. With 4th edition they streamlined things.

Just kind of bummed that my most recent campaign is on 'pause' or has ended abruptly. We played from May of 2022 to July of 2024. Really thought we were going to start back up on November 10th.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Two Crows on December 06, 2024, 11:39:32 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 14, 2015, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: Weru;825429I'm no GURPS Guru, but I do love 3e for low mana fantasy.

It's probably what GURPS is most good at.

Guns, Guns, Guns!

GURPS is the best system, from a crunch perspective (IMO), for modern gun-centric games, including war settings.

GURPs seems to have rather odd stats for guns, though. 9mm doing more damage than .45 ACP (they have similar muzzle energy, but .45 ACP leaves a bigger hole), .357 magnum doing only 1 point less than .44 Magnum (it's about 2/3 muzzle energy and a lot smaller hole), .38 special only doing 1 point less than .45 ACP despite being much smaller and half the muzzle energy

4E GURPS is very complete and comprehensive. The problem with it is that there are no well presented points of entry. You get these two volumes of dense material packed with everything under the sun and you need to practically write your own starter book to present to players to create characters for the type of campaign that you want. I would have loved a fantasy starter box set that covered just fantasy options, varying point totals covering zero to hero up through high powered play and a GM book with a starting fantasy bestiary and some sample adventures for low,medium, and high point totals. Add in some fantasy maps for advanced combat and you have solid intro to the genre. They could do similar sets for other genres, making the core book set kind of a reference work.

That is my dream anyway.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 08, 2024, 08:49:36 AM4E GURPS is very complete and comprehensive. The problem with it is that there are no well presented points of entry. You get these two volumes of dense material packed with everything under the sun and you need to practically write your own starter book to present to players to create characters for the type of campaign that you want. I would have loved a fantasy starter box set that covered just fantasy options, varying point totals covering zero to hero up through high powered play and a GM book with a starting fantasy bestiary and some sample adventures for low,medium, and high point totals. Add in some fantasy maps for advanced combat and you have solid intro to the genre. They could do similar sets for other genres, making the core book set kind of a reference work.

Isn't that the Dungeon Fantasy RPG?

https://www.sjgames.com/dungeonfantasy/

And the other genres would be the "Powered by GURPS" line: Discworld, Hellboy, Conspiracy X, Vorkosigan Saga, Prime Directive, and WWII.

https://www.sjgames.com/poweredbygurps/

Quote from: jhkim on December 08, 2024, 11:37:27 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 08, 2024, 08:49:36 AM4E GURPS is very complete and comprehensive. The problem with it is that there are no well presented points of entry. You get these two volumes of dense material packed with everything under the sun and you need to practically write your own starter book to present to players to create characters for the type of campaign that you want. I would have loved a fantasy starter box set that covered just fantasy options, varying point totals covering zero to hero up through high powered play and a GM book with a starting fantasy bestiary and some sample adventures for low,medium, and high point totals. Add in some fantasy maps for advanced combat and you have solid intro to the genre. They could do similar sets for other genres, making the core book set kind of a reference work.

Isn't that the Dungeon Fantasy RPG?

https://www.sjgames.com/dungeonfantasy/

And the other genres would be the "Powered by GURPS" line: Discworld, Hellboy, Conspiracy X, Vorkosigan Saga, Prime Directive, and WWII.

https://www.sjgames.com/poweredbygurps/

Dungeon Fantasy is a high powered mindless dungeon romp game that is written with aura of disdain.Not really suitable for fantasy campaigns designed to allow for character growth and featuring adventures that include more than kill and loot.

Quote from: JeremyR on December 08, 2024, 04:33:23 AM

Quote from: Two Crows on December 06, 2024, 11:39:32 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 14, 2015, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: Weru;825429I'm no GURPS Guru, but I do love 3e for low mana fantasy.

It's probably what GURPS is most good at.

Guns, Guns, Guns!

GURPS is the best system, from a crunch perspective (IMO), for modern gun-centric games, including war settings.

GURPs seems to have rather odd stats for guns, though. 9mm doing more damage than .45 ACP (they have similar muzzle energy, but .45 ACP leaves a bigger hole), .357 magnum doing only 1 point less than .44 Magnum (it's about 2/3 muzzle energy and a lot smaller hole), .38 special only doing 1 point less than .45 ACP despite being much smaller and half the muzzle energy

The .45 does more damage after penetrating (the "2d+" means multiply damage by 1.5 after armor), where the 2d+2 just means what it looks like. The .38 sits at the bottom with 2d.

An unarmored target would take, on average, 9 hp from the 9mm round (max damage 14 hp) but 10 hp from the .45 (max damage 18 hp). Their version give the 9mm a bit more penetration ability. The .38 gives the worst option, with no better penetration that the .45, and far less damage potential.

The same thing applies to the .357 vs .44 magnum rounds.  3d-1 vs 3d+, so any damage that penetrates is 150%. In this case, the .44 has more penetration and (a whole lot) more damage.

The rounds also all vary in effective range (1/2 Dmg), max range, even in ammo weight, and some vary in recoil (RCL).

(I agree this is way too much detail for most RPG's.)

I have both... I prefer the black and white of the 3rd but I prefer the streamlined rules of the 4th.
I did not practice them enough to see the difference, especially as computing the "exact" cost of this and that is not what I use GURPS for. Thus, I would recommend starting with the 4th, but you can get a 3rd edition for a cheap taste and intro to the system as well.

The cool thing about 3rd edition is that the book is somewhat slim and has all you need already. 4th starts with 2 books, and they are chucky, mostly derivated from the 3e compedium and multiple books. Mechanically we're speaking just different calculations for a skill or atribute. The philosophy is the same. Whatever you choose, if you stick with gurps for a while, you'll end up mixing all editions. So If you can buy 3rd edition cheap and just want to check out the potential, i'd go with that.