Quote from: Koltar;823542BULLSHIT.

 This Forum is dedicated to ALL Role Playing Games - Not just 'OSR'.

It just seems otherwise because that's who is talking the most recently.


- Ed C.

Yet D&D and its ilk seem to take the lion' share of the discussions, at least when a system is actually named.

Anyway, since you've been here longer than me...

Quote from: Cornelius;823546Yet D&D and its ilk seem to take the lion' share of the discussions, at least when a system is actually named.

Anyway, since you've been here longer than me...

D&D and its relatives do get the bulk of the attention... as probably happens in most RPG forums that are open to all systems. But there are a number of people here who don't play D&D at all.
If you start up a thread about another system there is usually a crowd who will happily join in.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823509Rob rate the following games in order of ease of learning GURPS in your opinion.

3rd Lite* or 4th Lite
4th Core
4th Specific Game (Dungeon Fantasy, etc).
3rd Core

*If you are going learn GURPS both are a wash in my opinion. If you are only going to use GURPS Lite for Fantasy then 3e Lite is better as it is a more complete game for Fantasy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507But, 4th simply takes that concept even further and doesn't even bother being a coherent game out of the box, being instead a master list of components.

3rd edition has the same issue.

2nd Edition may in fact be better than 3rd Edition for learning the core concepts and getting a basic game up and running.  However, 3rd Edition Lite Rules are easily and freely available as are 4th, so those are going to be the two main choices.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507I'm just arguing new GURPS people get referred to 4th, which just seems asinine to me.  You do refer people to GURPS Lite.  However, if someone was going to buy the book and jump in, 4th seems worse from the perspective of the initial learning process than 3rd.

Most of the recommendations I see are to read GURPS 4e Lite first then jump into the core. And the thing is while are talking novice GURPS gamers we are not talking about novice gamers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507Yet 3rd is closer to the 2nd Edition presentation than 4th is, so by your own logic, a novice referee will be even more fucked with 4th than 3rd.

That true of mechanics but in terms of mechanics and what they tried to pack in there it is a toolkit RPG. All your complaints about 4e's presentation I heard about 3e and the trouble you speak about with 4e I saw happened with experienced gamer trying to master 3e. With 2e there was just simply less and skewed to fantasy.

My opinion that starting with 3e GURPS became a toolkit RPG in every aspect. That if you going to attempt climb the GURPS learning curve after mastering Lite then might as well go with 4e which has a better design and better presentation than 3e.

It not like radically better, except for extra-ordinary powers, but better enough to warrant my recommendation.






 

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507Yeah, a great and comprehensive encyclopedia of rules for every genre and setting...if you ever learn to play the damn thing (which is the point we're discussing).

That is what Lite for and has been for since 3e.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823507Which only further distances the 4th Rulebook as what you should start with.  4th Core should basically be the last thing you use to try and learn GURPS as it's not really designed for learning the game at all.

I agree and argue vigorously over on the SJ Game forum around 2008 or so. They weren't interested then and still not interested although I figured that the success of Dungeon Fantasy would make them see the value of all in one fantasy RPG powered by GURPS. But by DF 7 or 8 it was obvious they weren't interested in that.

And while i like Dungeon Fantasy Sean Punch choose to go for over the top fantasy of 250 points instead of 150 points which most of us were playing up to that point.

Quote from: Cornelius;823546Yet D&D and its ilk seem to take the lion' share of the discussions, at least when a system is actually named.

Anyway, since you've been here longer than me...

D&D takes the lion's share of anything RPG related, like it or not. Personally not a game I think is very good, but it's the longest running, most famous, and most popular.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823322Fourth is a book of options, you'll spend 95% of your time building the laundry list of what you are NOT going to use in creating your own game from the pieces.

Um, no. In a later post, you even admit you know about the little symbols by the Ads and Disads and what they're for, so I don't know why you even said this. Those alone make it more like 1% of your time, 2% tops, to do this. You'll pick your tone and genre, and then you'll go through the key to see which symbols are likely not appropriate for your game, and finally which level of complexity of the combat system you'll be using. Then you'll let the players know with a pitch. Perhaps something like the following:

"X genre. Y tone. Z complexity of combat. Head and lightning bolt symbols not allowed. If you think you have a good reason to allow an exception, let me know and I'll review it. Appropriate skills should be obvious, but feel free to ask me if you're unsure about something."

Easy peasy. Within a few minutes, you've already narrowed down the Ad/Disad list considerably, and you won't even have to look at any of the prima facie disallowed stuff unless a player brings it up. Now you can get on with the task of actually doing your adventure prep.

I dabbled in 3e, but really jumped in with 4e. That's were I dug in and learned the system. I had never touched GURPS before (3e) that except to move it aside as I shopped for my games. :-)

I am also not a "guru". I know enough to run/play GURPS, and create a setting, power structure, etc. I wouldn't tweak actual rules. There's already rules for pretty much everything, with options and ideas on how to apply them.

I don't get all the arguments about broken STR, etc.

I do feel like 4e is organized well and easy to find stuff. I really appreciated the color-coding, icons, indices, and tight writing. Sure, it's a technical manual in some respects, but as a computer nerd I can tell you it's a very well done technical manual. You can tell by reading it much thought when into every paragraph.

Quote from: trechriron;823664Sure, it's a technical manual in some respects, but as a computer nerd I can tell you it's a very well done technical manual.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;823610Easy peasy.

Technical Manual I'll agree with.  Concisely well-written and indexed technical manual - I'll give you that one too.  "Easy peasy" is relative, so I'll just let the viewer decide.  Advantages and Disadvantages alone are 134 pages of this:

Two, three minutes tops, right?

Quote from: estar;823584If you are only going to use GURPS Lite for Fantasy then 3e Lite is better as it is a more complete game for Fantasy.

Anything not modern, I would say, but I agree about Fantasy.

Quote from: estar;823590That if you going to attempt climb the GURPS learning curve after mastering Lite then might as well go with 4e which has a better design and better presentation than 3e.

Ok, once you know GURPS and have mastered the Lite version, 4th is better laid out for GM's who know what the hell they are doing, but stick to a Lite version to learn, and for some genre's 3rd Lite is more complete than 4th.  I think we're in agreement on these points.

I think GURPS really gets more heat than it deserves. It really isn't that complicated. Just look at GURPS Vehicles for the third edition, it's a great place for beginners to start.






....couldn't resist

There's always the GURPS for Dummies book: http://www.amazon.com/GURPS-For-Dummies-Adam-Griffith/dp/0471783293 (Amazon link)

Quote from: TheFailedSave;823683I think GURPS really gets more heat than it deserves. It really isn't that complicated. Just look at GURPS Vehicles for the third edition, it's a great place for beginners to start.

Absolutely!

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Quote from: CRKrueger;823670Two, three minutes tops, right?

The fallacy of your argument that GURPS was never a two, three minutes tops type of game even in 2nd edition. While I feel of all the core books of GURPS, 2nd edition is the easiest, it is a relative assessment to the later editions. Compared to other RPGs, GURPS always required an investment of time to get up to speed with.

Even You, yes You, Learn To Play GURPS (no really...)

GURPS is a roleplaying game that can be used to play just about any character in just about any story of just about any type.  That makes the rules look pretty scary but they're built on some pretty simple concepts and once you get that it's easy.

Characters are built on a number of points.  A minor hero would usually be built on around 150 points.

Attributes
Your character has four Attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Health.  There are also four Sub Attributes: Hit Points, Perception, Will Power, and Fatigue.  A rating of five is crippling, ten is average, fifteen is rare and exceptional and eighteen might happen once in a generation of six billion people.  All the Attributes start out with a rating of ten.  Strength and Health cost ten points for each additional point and Intelligence and Dexterity cost twenty points for each additional point because they affect so many skills.  Hit Points are automatically equal to the character's Strength and cost two points.  Perception and Will Power start out equal to Intelligence and cost 5 points.  Fatigue is equal to Health and costs three points.

Their movement rate is their Dexterity plus Health divided by four.  Keep the fraction as it is used to break ties.

Advantages and Disadvantages
Advantages and disadvantages allow the purchase of specific special abilities and limitations.  You can get extra points for taking disadvantages but don't go crying to the game master if your character dies as a result.  Really they're supposed to shape your character and make them more interesting but trying to get everything you can out of them is giving the game master a licence to pick on you.

Skills
They will also have skills which are rated on a similar scale.  Most skills have an initial score base on one of the Attributes minus four.  It's easy to pick up a little of a skill with a course or two or some relevant experience so skills can be brought up to their associated Attribute by spending a single point.  The next point after that costs two character points and every point after that costs four.  As some skills are easier or harder there is a skill difficulty modifier.  Average skills are one point lower, Hard skills minus two, and Very Hard Skills Minus Three.

Success Rolls
You need to roll a total that is equal to or under the Attribute or Skill rating on three six-sided dice to succeed.  A roll of three is always a critical success, this happens one in two hundred and sixteen rolls.  A roll of four is always a success and is a critical success if your skill is greater than 14. (actually, I need to look this up, it's not just score -10 in 4e)  A roll of seventeen always fails and a roll of eighteen is always a critical failure.

Sometimes you will need to subtract your roll from your rating to find a margin of success.  Particularly in contests where you want to know who won.

Combat Sequence
Combat happens in short, one second rounds.  This basically means that if you need to use the word "and" to describe what your character does it probably takes more than one round to do it.  You have to draw a weapon that takes a full action unless you have a Fast Draw skill for the weapon in which case you can roll to do it for free.  Actions are taken in order of movement rates.  

Attacking
Normally you can take one step and make one attack on your turn.  Your character can make a half move and a melee attack with a plus four to hit, attack twice, or make a really hard swing for plus two to damage by sacrificing your defenses for the round.  This is a very bad idea unless you're absolutely sure your character's opponent won't be able to fight back when they are done.

Your attack hits if you can make a success roll for the specific weapon skill for the weapon you are using.  Many skills have a small two point default difference so you don't really need to develop skill in rifles and pistols if you're really good with one of them.  On a critical success your opponent cannot make a defense roll to avoid your attack.

Missile attacks are quite varied.  The penalty for range may seem very steep but if you take an action to Aim you get a bonus equal to the Accuracy of the weapon.  You can get another plus one to hit for each of two more rounds of aiming and yet another for sacrificing any chance to defend yourself.

Defense Rolls
When an attack hits your character they can make a defense roll to deflect it.  Dodges are based on their movement rate plus three modified for encumbrance.  If the character backs away from a melee attack or goes prone to dodge a ranged attack, they get a three point bonus.  Weapons can parry melee attacks with half of the character's skill plus three, if they step back while doing so, they get a plus one, some particularly fast weapons like rapiers and martial arts moves get a plus three for retreating.  Shields are used to block.  They get half their skill plus three plus another bonus based on the size of the shield.  Blocking while retreating a step gives a one point bonus.  

Damage
Damage is tracked as Hit Points.  These are based on your Strength, not your Health because a Tyrannosaurus Rex has a lot of hit points but can still catch a cold. Your damage with primitive weapons is based on your Strength.  It is looked up on a table and modified by the weapon you use.  You have a basic Swing damage value representing the extra force leverage adds to your blow and a Thrust damage representing the force you can apply quickly and directly.  Your punch damage is your Thrust damage minus two.

Armor has Damage Resistance which is subtracted from the amount of damage you rolled.  Most weapons have a damage multiplier that is applied after armor is subtracted.  Edged weapons do Cutting damage which is multiplied by 1.5 as are large caliber firearms.  Piercing weapons and really big guns do Impaling damage which is multiplied by 2 or 3 if the attack hits the target's vital organs.

If your character takes more Hit Points than they have they are in danger of falling unconscious and must make a Health roll each round or fall unconscious.  If they take more than twice their hit points they are in danger of dying and must make a Health roll each round or die.  If they take more than six times their Hit Points they are dead for sure.  If they take eleven times their  Hit Points their body is destroyed completely.  This rule even applies to objects like ropes and battle ships.

Anyhow, there's a rough draft for people to pick at.  I wouldn't want it to be much longer or detailed but I'm sure I've made dozens of little errors that need fixed.  It's a primer not a manual.

The issue with strength is most effect oriented abilities move up on a doubling scale like Enhanced Move, Range Enhancements and so on.  Whereas Strength doesn't.  It's easier to mind control then entire world than it is to lift a tank.

Super Effort Strength kind of fixes this but it does it in a messy and cludgy manner that does model what is seen in comics pretty well but seems really stupid when there were simpler and more elegant ways it could have been implemented.