Quote from: Warthur;823388I don't want to labour on kit-bashing what subset of GURPS to use for a game, I just want to take core book + supplement and get going.

It depends what type of game you mostly want to run, and how many different types of games you want to run. It also depends on whether you want some of the more detailed rules for things.

One of the challenges with 3e was that it grew organically over many years, meaning that there are different rules for doing similar (or the same) things in different supplements. So if you intend to genre hop this will either become a headache, or you will be saying "we're playing campaign X but using the gadgeteering rules from book Y" or similar.  Alternatively, you might want to play a campaign like "the Horselords but use the Martial Arts rule (but not the Chambarra rules...)".  You lose the expected benefit of having a single book plus a campaign book.

4e really gives you core + genre book (by subtraction rather than addition) since there are very few new rules in the extra books. The extra books are more about advice to create a feel for a specific campaign. Social Engineering for example is a book all about interaction between characters, but contains almost zero new rules (I think it is zero rules, but I haven't read it again recently). Instead, the book talks about different types of social encounters and how you could use the existing rules to model this. (For example, if you want to smear a political opponent, how would you go about that in GURPS terms?).

The three PDF series (Action, Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters) serve as highly detailed examples of how to build your game from GURPS, and are also fun games in their own right.

GURPS 4e is the grand piano of RPGs. You can play almost any piece on it, but unless you practice it will be tricky and have some duff notes in it. When you are proficient, however, you can easily tickle out any tune you want.

3e is a good game if you want a fantasy baseline and don't intend to bring in lots of different stuff. Or a real-world historic baseline (3e is the Emperor of historic role playing). The further you get from that baseline, or the more frequently you make genre changes, the less likely you will get a smooth gaming experience.

Quote from: Warthur;823285Exactly how "core" were these additions though? It sounds like a lot of those rule systems came from the various supplement lines

It lot like the original list of advantages, disadvantages, skills and abilities, some make sense for any genre, some don't. The Compendium was done because additional general purpose rule systems were introduced in various supplements and people were complaining about how they were scattered about the line. For example there is a expanded hit location chart in the 2nd Compendium.

Quote from: Warthur;823285I don't want a whole bunch of genre-specific stuff cluttering up the core.

That is a battle already lost with 3rd edition heck even 2nd edition. GURPS has always been a game where you have to comb through the books to build exactly what you want for your campaign. The Compendiums just compiles and organizes the additions scattered throughout the supplements giving you more options.

My personal experience with the compendiums is that I used the 2nd rules oriented book way more than the 1st character oriented book. I found them very useful and worthy additions to the line.

But if you are looking for simplicity in GURPS, you need to start with GURPS Lite and add in what you want from there.

Quote from: Warthur;823388See, that's exactly what I don't want - I'd rather be able to keep as much of the core as possible than be constantly telling players "no, ignore that part, we're not using it this time".

I am telling as a GURPS referee since the late 80s (2nd edition). That has never been an effective approach with GURPS. You always had to pick and chose what advantage, disadvantages, and skills to use. You just can't hand a person  GURPS 2nd edition or even GURPS Lite and say go make a character that will fit your campaign.

Quote from: Warthur;823388A start from the minimum and add on approach rather than starting with the maximum and taking away. Sounds like Lite or maybe 3rd is the best route, particularly since I'm probably going to be using it less for high-tech/Infinite Worlds stuff.

It would really help if you tell us the campaign you are planning to run.

You never play GURPS like you do D&D or Runequest. You figure out a campaign first and then use the GURPS rules for that campaign. The difference between GURPS Lite and the various 4e core book options is how much detail you supply for the elements of that campaign. Do you abstract it by using GURPS Lite or do you chop up the elements of the setting into their components and implement the details using the options of the core books?

Quote from: Warthur;823388CRKreuger seemed to hit the nail on the head in the other thread:

I don't want to labour on kit-bashing what subset of GURPS to use for a game, I just want to take core book + supplement and get going.

What CRKreuger fails to mention that all the GURPS Supplements tell you what set of GURPS abilities make sense for the setting or genre it covers. None, except perhaps Infinite Worlds uses everything. Even then Infinite Worlds doesn't use much of the space science fiction stuff.

And note that Infinite World originated in GURPS 3rd edition. (GURPS Time Travel).

Again nearly every referee I seen that ran a failed GURPS campaign one of the main reason is that they handed their players the core book and said to them "You can use whatever in the core book."

Quote from: Ravenswing;823380My firm belief is that earlier edition of the Basic Set were fundamentally a fantasy game, and that 4th edition was a conscious change to fit the Infinite Worlds setting and a more high-tech setting approach generally.  So, being a firm fantasy GM, I use a number of earlier elements.  (Heck, I still use the pre-1989 missile rules.)

This is pretty accurate. You can play a good, gritty fantasy-style game using nothing more than the 3rd edition Basic Set. 4th edition feels more like a toolkit to me, much closer to HERO than 3rd edition. That can be good or bad, depending on what style of game you want to run.

Quote from: Brad;823429This is pretty accurate. You can play a good, gritty fantasy-style game using nothing more than the 3rd edition Basic Set. 4th edition feels more like a toolkit to me, much closer to HERO than 3rd edition. That can be good or bad, depending on what style of game you want to run.

I agree, however with the caveat that even with 2nd edition you would be foolish to hand a player the rulebook and say "go make a character for Greyhawk" without setting some guideline as to what was allowed.

Quote from: estar;823438I agree, however with the caveat that even with 2nd edition you would be foolish to hand a player the rulebook and say "go make a character for Greyhawk" without setting some guideline as to what was allowed.

Absolutely, but I think that could even be applied to D&D.

If you have the time, 4th edition is pretty badass. If you're a lazy GM, you will just be overwhelmed and frustrated.

I have and enjoy 3rd.  Some things going for it: it works, it's a nice relatively slender volume, and there are a ton of sourcebooks available for it and generally at bargain prices. 4th scared me away by being two large books to do the job 3rd did at half the size.  I can't speak to the actual quality of 4th but I've never had any issues with 3rd.

Quote from: estar;823419What CRKreuger fails to mention that all the GURPS Supplements tell you what set of GURPS abilities make sense for the setting or genre it covers. None, except perhaps Infinite Worlds uses everything. Even then Infinite Worlds doesn't use much of the space science fiction stuff.

Yeah, and you fail to mention that the "all options in the core book model" is presented as something like 157 pages of Advantages and Disadvantages with each one branded with anywhere from 2-6 colored icons to tell someone what metadata genre tag or realism level the advantage belongs to.

Extremely useful and concise information to someone who has internalized the rules over decades of play and GMing over several editions.  A uselessly arcane and jargonistic approach to the newbie.

Unfortunately, once someone has internalized the processes and procedures of a system (no matter what that system is) it is very hard to analyze that system objectively from the perspective of a new learner, that's just Education 101.   It sounds counter-intuitive, but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS, as  none of them did it under the current system.  Running GURPS, sure.  Teaching GURPS to your players if you are a GM, yeah probably.  Learning GURPS yourself, maybe or maybe not.

Obviously, any game that has a lite version is probably the best way to introduce yourself to the concepts and core mechanics.  GURPS has always been a "make your own game" game, and despite the fact that it may be the best and easiest version to play and run once the rules are internalized, I highly doubt that 4th is the best system for a GM to teach themselves GURPS, and none of the regulars telling you that it is have actually done it themselves.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Unfortunately, once someone has internalized the processes and procedures of a system (no matter what that system is) it is very hard to analyze that system objectively from the perspective of a new learner, that's just Education 101.   It sounds counter-intuitive, but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS, as  none of them did it under the current system.  Running GURPS, sure.  Teaching GURPS to your players if you are a GM, yeah probably.  Learning GURPS yourself, maybe or maybe not.

That is an idiotic statement. I have several friends over the year who picked up GURPS 4e and learned without me or any of the local experienced players standing at their elbows. I understand exactly what the issues a newcomer experiences. And addin my experiences with gamers learning 2nd, and 3rd edition for themselves.

With GURPS 2nd edition it was easy to see how to use the game to run a fantasy roleplaying. That quit being the case starting with 3rd edition. As far as being a toolkit RPG where you have to design what rules you are going use, 3rd edition is the start of all that

In addition you ignore the fact I strongly recommended GURPS Lite at several point especially if complexity an issue.

A novice referee is fucked with GURPS 3rd edition or 4th edition if he looking for a ready to run RPG. At least with 4th edition it all there, well organized with the rough edges that popped up in 3e edition fixed. And with 4e you have the closest things (outside of Discworld or Prime Directive) that GURPS ever did to present a ready to run RPG. (Action, Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc).

I rather have a standalone GURPS Fantasy RPG (or Horror, or Sci-Fi). Failing that I would hand something the 2nd Edition Boxed Set. But because that not readily avaliable I would tell them to download GURPS Lite and if they like it get the Core books.

And damn GURPS 4e cost $60 for the two core books on Amazon. That not cheap but it not the $100+ dollars for D&D corebooks.

Quote from: estar;823504That is an idiotic statement. I have several friends over the year who picked up GURPS 4e and learned without me or any of the local experienced players standing at their elbows. I understand exactly what the issues a newcomer experiences. And addin my experiences with gamers learning 2nd, and 3rd edition for themselves.

Any game can be learned, I never said it couldn't, and that's not the question.  The question is, with so many options at this point to learn GURPS, is 4th the best one to start with?  Answer: No.

Quote from: estar;823504With GURPS 2nd edition it was easy to see how to use the game to run a fantasy roleplaying. That quit being the case starting with 3rd edition. As far as being a toolkit RPG where you have to design what rules you are going use, 3rd edition is the start of all that.

But, 4th simply takes that concept even further and doesn't even bother being a coherent game out of the box, being instead a master list of components.

2nd Edition may in fact be better than 3rd Edition for learning the core concepts and getting a basic game up and running.  However, 3rd Edition Lite Rules are easily and freely available as are 4th, so those are going to be the two main choices.

Quote from: estar;823504In addition you ignore the fact I strongly recommended GURPS Lite at several point especially if complexity an issue.

I don't ignore the fact, and said obviously any Lite version would be better for the completely uninitiated.  What I specifically reject is your contention that the 4th Edition practice of front-loading genre options into core rules is better for learning than 3rd Edition.  Is it better for the "create your game" process? Probably - most definitely if you already know all the rules.  Is it better for the GM running a game once the "build" process is completed?  Probably, not arguing that.

I'm just arguing new GURPS people get referred to 4th, which just seems asinine to me.  You do refer people to GURPS Lite.  However, if someone was going to buy the book and jump in, 4th seems worse from the perspective of the initial learning process than 3rd.

Quote from: estar;823504A novice referee is fucked with GURPS 3rd edition or 4th edition if he looking for a ready to run RPG.

Yet 3rd is closer to the 2nd Edition presentation than 4th is, so by your own logic, a novice referee will be even more fucked with 4th than 3rd.

Quote from: estar;823504At least with 4th edition it all there, well organized with the rough edges that popped up in 3e edition fixed.

Yeah, a great and comprehensive encyclopedia of rules for every genre and setting...if you ever learn to play the damn thing (which is the point we're discussing).

Quote from: estar;823504And with 4e you have the closest things (outside of Discworld or Prime Directive) that GURPS ever did to present a ready to run RPG. (Action, Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc).

Which only further distances the 4th Rulebook as what you should start with.  4th Core should basically be the last thing you use to try and learn GURPS as it's not really designed for learning the game at all.

Quote from: estar;823504I rather have a standalone GURPS Fantasy RPG (or Horror, or Sci-Fi). Failing that I would hand something the 2nd Edition Boxed Set. But because that not readily avaliable I would tell them to download GURPS Lite and if they like it get the Core books.

Ok, but again, if the presentation of 2nd is your preferred teaching method, then 3rd would be closer to that in its presentation both in Lite form or Core form than 4th is.  Anything that makes 3rd less useful to teaching than 2nd, makes 4th even less useful because it's just the "build a game" concepts of 3rd fully realized.

Quote from: estar;823504And damn GURPS 4e cost $60 for the two core books on Amazon. That not cheap but it not the $100+ dollars for D&D corebooks.

Non-sequitur as I don't think anyone ever mentioned price, but ok.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Yeah, and you fail to mention that the "all options in the core book model" is presented as something like 157 pages of Advantages and Disadvantages with each one branded with anywhere from 2-6 colored icons to tell someone what metadata genre tag or realism level the advantage belongs to.

To "code" the advantages or the disadvantages used in the worst case up to three signs (which are clearly explained at the beginning of the relative chapter). Please note that these icons are just suggestions since most entries are pretty much self explanatory.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Extremely useful and concise information to someone who has internalized the rules over decades of play and GMing over several editions.  A uselessly arcane and jargonistic approach to the newbie.

Labelling an advantage as social rather than phisical, for example, doesn't seem to me neither "arcane" or "jargonistic" to me, but rather "obvious". Categorizing a list is done for easy of reference of the prospective reader, not to show him up.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Unfortunately, once someone has internalized the processes and procedures of a system (no matter what that system is) it is very hard to analyze that system objectively from the perspective of a new learner, that's just Education 101.   It sounds counter-intuitive, but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS, as  none of them did it under the current system.  Running GURPS, sure.  Teaching GURPS to your players if you are a GM, yeah probably.  Learning GURPS yourself, maybe or maybe not.

Interesting, so someone who really knows a game, who's an expert on the matter is the least qualified to learn from! Guess that learning D&D from Gygax must have been a gruelling experience...

Quote from: CRKrueger;823474Obviously, any game that has a lite version is probably the best way to introduce yourself to the concepts and core mechanics.  GURPS has always been a "make your own game" game, and despite the fact that it may be the best and easiest version to play and run once the rules are internalized, I highly doubt that 4th is the best system for a GM to teach themselves GURPS, and none of the regulars telling you that it is have actually done it themselves.

You may doubt it, but it' so. The mistakes you may do running 4th are the very sames you could do running 3rd: allowing too many points, trying to use everything and so on so forth, but those depends on the GM not onthe game itself.
Gurps 4th edition is much clearer and better explained than third edition has ever been.

And yes, you can teach yourself GURPS. I did with 3rd when I discovered it in the late nineties. So did a couple of my friends, and one of them exactly with 4th ed. Since none of us are geniuses, if we did learn Gurps, I don't see why OP could not do it.

To the OP: Have a look to Gurps lite, it's free and easy to find. It's a good gateway. If you ever wind up trying the whole game, remember that Gurps is a game where rules are really versatile: you first build the setting and then choose which rules to use.
It may seem a complicated game, but it's really easy.

Rob rate the following games in order of ease of learning GURPS in your opinion.
3rd Lite
4th Lite
3rd Core
4th Core
4th Specific Game (Dungeon Fantasy, etc).

Quote from: Cornelius;823508Interesting, so someone who really knows a game, who's an expert on the matter is the least qualified to learn from! Guess that learning D&D from Gygax must have been a gruelling experience...

Knowledge of the subject matter doesn't give you any ability to pass it on.  Two separate skills.  The brilliant person who is a subject matter expert who is unable to successfully train others is so common it's practically a cliché. Also when the game master says "Roll the dice and I'll tell you what happens" the learning process can be extended over a great period of time. However, learning from a person is immaterial because that's not the question being discussed.

Show me a GURPS guru on this site, I'll show you someone who learned with 2nd Edition or earlier and knew all the rules before they got to 3rd, or 4th, so when it comes to actually learning the game from 4th, ironically they have zero experience.

Quote from: Cornelius;823508And yes, you can teach yourself GURPS.

Of course you can, if people play Phoenix Command, they can play GURPS.  Is 4th core the best way to learn it though?  Is 4th Lite better than 3rd Lite? That's the question.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Knowledge of the subject matter doesn't give you any ability to pass it on.  Two separate skills.  The brilliant person who is a subject matter expert who is unable to successfully train others is so common it's practically a cliché.

Knowledge of a subject means that you know what you're talking about and gives you a fair chance to pass it on others, while ignorance on the same subject means that you have NO chance at all of passing anything worth.
Would you rather learn basic maths from a qualified teacher or from someone who has never studied it?

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Also when the game master says "Roll the dice and I'll tell you what happens" the learning process can be extended over a great period of time. However, learning from a person is immaterial because that's not the question being discussed.

A part from the passage where you claimend that:

 "but Estar, Koltar, and Ravenswing might be the last people to get advice from as how to learn GURPS"

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Show me a GURPS guru on this site, I'll show you someone who learned with 2nd Edition or earlier and knew all the rules before they got to 3rd, or 4th, so when it comes to actually learning the game from 4th, ironically they have zero experience.

Of course on this site you won't find experienced Gurps masters. Not only lots of people here started to play in the 80's (or so seemed to me reading the posts) and so could get exposed to Gurps early, but this is a forum dedicated mainly to OSR like games. If you head over to Steve Jackson forums I've no doubt that you'll find many people that started with 4th ed.

Besides, according to your theory, most people here could not advise a newbie on D&D 5th, because they learned D&D before the current edition.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823510Of course you can, if people play Phoenix Command, they can play GURPS.  Is 4th core the best way to learn it though?  Is 4th Lite better than 3rd Lite? That's the question.

In my opinion (which, of course, you're free to cosider unworthy) 4th Lite is overall better than 3rd. But since both are still available (unless I'm mistaken) the OP can make up his own idea.

Quote from: Cornelius;823535...... so could get exposed to Gurps early, but this is a forum dedicated mainly to OSR like games. If you head over to Steve Jackson forums I've no doubt that you'll find many people that started with 4th ed.

BULLSHIT.

 This Forum is dedicated to ALL Role Playing Games - Not just 'OSR'.

It just seems otherwise because that's who is talking the most recently.


- Ed C.