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For my next campaign my group will be doing a little number I'm calling Sky Pirates of Eberron.  We want to use some gunpowder in the game, but the Renaissance weapons rules in the DMG are falling a little flat for us.  Here are some prospects under considerations:

• Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.
• Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.
• Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats.  For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

Comments?  Any other ideas?

Quote from: jrients

• Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

Whyzzat?  Curiosity alone prompts this.

Quote from: jrientsFirearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.

You could go one step further and make them Simple weapons, like crossbows. They'll be the new craze for Sorcerer's and Clerics, too.

Quote from: jrientsGuns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

Erm, a bit too much, unless you change your whole game. Spellslinger uses this, but they also have level-dependent initiative and AC bonuses to balance things out.
Iron Kingdom's 19-20/x4 crits seem quite alright. Or use the old penetration damage rules (roll again and add on highest result). Particularly nasty if there are guns with two dice.

Quote from: jrientsCrossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats.  For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

Swift? For muzzleloaders?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Whyzzat?  Curiosity alone prompts this.

If you use Ranged Touch then armor doesn't affect whether or not you get hit by a gun, only dexterity.

And cover.

Quote from: DocWhyzzat? Curiosity alone prompts this.

It's stupid terminology for something rather simple: your armor or thick hide doesn't count.

Quote from: SosthenesYou could go one step further and make them Simple weapons, like crossbows. They'll be the new craze for Sorcerer's and Clerics, too.

I can see that.

QuoteErm, a bit too much, unless you change your whole game. Spellslinger uses this, but they also have level-dependent initiative and AC bonuses to balance things out.

We're using Defense Bonus, as described in the Unearthed Arcana.

QuoteIron Kingdom's 19-20/x4 crits seem quite alright. Or use the old penetration damage rules (roll again and add on highest result). Particularly nasty if there are guns with two dice.

Both of those sound tasty.  In 2nd edition I once brought down a giant airsquid with a single arquebus shot thanks to the exploding dice.

QuoteSwift? For muzzleloaders?

The concern here is that unless you can up the rate of fire guns will become extremely sub-optimal at high levels.  I can deal with sub-optimal, but I don't want the cool/bad mechanics trade-off to be too severe.

QuoteThe concern here is that unless you can up the rate of fire guns will become extremely sub-optimal at high levels. I can deal with sub-optimal, but I don't want the cool/bad mechanics trade-off to be too severe.

Characters might have a brace of pistols (2) which will up the rate of fire -- for 2 rounds at least. :)  

They might also have a henchman handing them freshly loaded rifles.

Quote from: jrientsWe're using Defense Bonus, as described in the Unearthed Arcana.

Armor as DR? It would be pretty bad if my whole +5 heavy fortification plate armor would be useless simply if someone pulls out a derringer. And it's unfair for the (x-)bow dudes in the party.

QuoteThe concern here is that unless you can up the rate of fire guns will become extremely sub-optimal at high levels.  I can deal with sub-optimal, but I don't want the cool/bad mechanics trade-off to be too severe.

You're playing Eberron, so pretty much anything goes. The drawback is mainly visible at higher levels, so I'd just introduce some technical or magical marvel that takes care of this problem. Revolvers, pepperboxes, belt-fed heavy weapons, magical guns with built-in fire and earth elementals (cf. sky ships) etc.

Quote from: SosthenesArmor as DR? It would be pretty bad if my whole +5 heavy fortification plate armor would be useless simply if someone pulls out a derringer. And it's unfair for the (x-)bow dudes in the party.

Actually, giving the finger to guys in platemail is exactly the effect I'm going for.  Ditto crossbows.

You're giving the finger to the guys with swords, too. Better make everything a "touch" attack (i.e. let armor modify something else). I can understand the need for a more swashbuckling style, but as a player I prefer it when there's some kind of trade-off between armor and no armor. Like getting hit more often, but not hurting as much afterwards.

Conan D20 might work quite well for this, with their armor piercing and finesse rules.

Quote from: SosthenesYou're giving the finger to the guys with swords, too.

Howso?  A master pistoleer and a master swordsman face off.  Neither is wearing armor.  Both have Defensive Bonus.  Where is the overwhelming advantage?  I'd say the swordsman with 4 or 5 attacks would be in pretty good shape if he was close to the pistoleer.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIf you use Ranged Touch then armor doesn't affect whether or not you get hit by a gun, only dexterity.

And cover.

Quote from: jrientsIt's stupid terminology for something rather simple: your armor or thick hide doesn't count.

...y'see, this's what happens when I stop playing d20 and, umn, forget his type thing.

Quote from: jrientsHowso?  A master pistoleer and a master swordsman face off.  Neither is wearing armor.  Both have Defensive Bonus.  Where is the overwhelming advantage?  I'd say the swordsman with 4 or 5 attacks would be in pretty good shape if he was close to the pistoleer.

I was talking about ranged touch only for guns. Assuming that armor still gives you AC normally. So you're fighting the highly armored bodyguard of house Wossname and your sword just can't get through. The cleric of Twogooddomains at your side aims with his raggedy old musket and easily hits. Next in the initiative is the quick-drawing Telling Blow rogue with his two pistol bandoleers...

If only pistols get ranged touch, everyone will use just those. Which is fine for Spellslinger, but I don't know if that's what you intend. I think I just don't know all of your relevant house rules, though... ;)

Alternatively, you could have firearms do Constitution damage instead of hit point damage (although both could go done at once). This would actually give an advantage to lower level characters over higher level ones as the difference in Con. is not going to be high over 10 levels (well, 2 max if you put all your advances into Con.) This gives them a big fear factor.

If that is done, leave any other mods, like ranged touch, etc alone.

Sosthenes: Okay, now I see your point.  I'm not sure you've convinced me to drop the touch attack idea, but you've got me thinking about the ramifications of it.

Will there be monsters? Removing natural armor from the equation means it's easier to hit and damage a colossal great wyrm red dragon with a +39 natural armor bonus then it is a 6 year old quadrapalegic with a 2 dexterity.

With damage reduction, the dragon could be hit several times and still essentially be bulletproof. Or mostly bulletproof. Or not bulletproof, depending on how bullet-resistant you wanted the critter to be.

And speaking of which, it should be easier to hit a dragon then a spastic 6 year old. The dragon is the size of a barn.

What is it about you forgies and your fantasies of shooting children, btw?

Plate wasn't entirely useless against musket fire. Where to start my examples?

Cowboy movies where the guy straps a plate of sheet steel (or stove iron) under his poncho?

Hey? Real world: Waterloo, Napoleon's cavelry included... um... Chasseurs?, guys with nice chrome shiny breastplates that musket balls tended to slide right off of... Not so healthy for the horse, and they did fuck all against even small cannonballs, but there you have it.  Real world plate armor vs. Muskets. Plate armor 1, cannonballs 10, muskets? .5?

Forgie? Yur mama's a forgie.

One assumes that anyone fighting a colossal great wyrm has a magic bullet or two.

The point is that the dragon is armored better than a tank, but a pistol bullet doesn't bounce off.

I'd probably go with armor as DR if using guns. I can't think of a d20 game that includes modern weaponry by default that doesn't do that.

Quote from: SpikePlate wasn't entirely useless against musket fire. Where to start my examples?

Acknowledged.  Consider my approach a creative decision rather than strict simulation.  Most of the people wearing platemail are goons I want the PCs to mow down in droves.

Quote from: James McMWill there be monsters?

Yes and ranged touch attacks would be very useful against them, just like ranged touch attack spells now.  *shrug*  But the primary opponents of the campaign will be enemy swashbucklers and maybe ghost pirates.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'd probably go with armor as DR if using guns. I can't think of a d20 game that includes modern weaponry by default that doesn't do that.

d20 Modern?

James... I don't have my book handy, but I swear to Doug that D20 Modern, the so called Official take on it still uses Armor as 'hard to hit', even with guns...and ray guns for d20 future.

Someone want to fact check this?

Quote from: SpikeSomeone want to fact check this?

I double-checked against the d20 Modern SRD before making my previous post

Could be. Haven't played d20 modern since it first came out. If it does, I'd probably swipre firearms rules from it.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonI double-checked against the d20 Modern SRD before making my previous post

cross posted, I got interrupted mid-post by a phonecall, and scoped.  I'm not SRD savvy enough, I need books.:D

Quote from: Spikecross posted, I got interrupted mid-post by a phonecall, and scoped.  I'm not SRD savvy enough, I need books.:D

Heh.  Despite writing d20 Modern supplements, I don't own a single d20 Modern book put out by WotC.  1) The SRD is more portable and 2) I'm scared of including non-OGC stuff by accident

I'm running a campaign where the PCs are Conquistadors exploring a new continent named Arkhesh. We use the Renaissance firearms weapons with the following mods:

Guns do bashing and piercing damage
Guns are Martial Weapons
Guns take the same amount of time to load as crossbows, and Rapid Reload works for guns as well as crossbows

This makes a gun a superior weapon to a crossbow, but not to bows (especially compounds bows).

Let's turn to the wisdom of the ancients...

Optional gunpowder rules from "A Mighty Fortress":

At short range, all armor is ignored. At medium range the armor is penalized by 5. At long range the target's AC is penalized by 2.
(D20 has no formal short/medium/long classifications that I'm aware of, 2/5/7+ range increments might apply)

Additional damage: Reroll and add all 8, 10 or 12 results (i.e. the maximum die number)

Add one point of fire damage if the target is within 5 feet of the muzzle.

All of them sound rather reasonable.

Quote from: jrientsFor my next campaign my group will be doing a little number I'm calling Sky Pirates of Eberron.  We want to use some gunpowder in the game, but the Renaissance weapons rules in the DMG are falling a little flat for us.  Here are some prospects under considerations:

• Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.
• Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.
• Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats.  For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

Comments?  Any other ideas?

I've pretty much always used guns in DnD. For as long as I've GMed anyway.

Rather than use the simple/martial firearm, I went with weapon groups (from UA) and counted firearms as exotic crossbows. Fighting classes (those with a +1 BAB at 1st level) pretty much always used exotic weapons, so guns were pretty common. So were spiked chains and katanas and such, so maybe that ain't for you.

Rather than go with ranged touch attack, I used an armor as DR variant (I also made the DR overcomeable, for reasons relating to the class-based defense bonus), so more damaging weapons were better at bypassing armor.

I also used about the same gun damage stats (with threat range 19-20, instead of x3... but only because I used VP/WP), but they were rear-loaders, and revolvers (same damage) were available. This justified rapid reload and allowed for TWF, rapid shot, etc. to be used with guns.

I got a link for the full rules mods for gun-heavy DnD if you're interested.

Quote from: James McMurrayCould be. Haven't played d20 modern since it first came out. If it does, I'd probably swipre firearms rules from it.

You really wouldn't want to.  They're horrid.

I haven't used the firearms rules in Northern Crown yet, but they look solid.  I'd be tempted to use those if I were using firearms in a D&D game.  Probably its fencing rules too.

Quote from: J ArcaneYou really wouldn't want to.  They're horrid.

Ok. Maybe I wouldn't. What's so bad about them?

Quote from: James McMurrayOk. Maybe I wouldn't. What's so bad about them?

Well, damage and crit wise, they're way underpowered, for one.  The crit as bad as a D&D light mace.

The autofire rules are all messed up too, but that's not gonna matter much for a flintlock type era.

Are hit points lower in d20 Modern? Maybe the lower damage reflects that? It's kinda how Babylon 5 handles firearms. They only do 2d6 - 3d8 damage, but hit points are low for everyone.

Quote from: James McMurrayAre hit points lower in d20 Modern? Maybe the lower damage reflects that? It's kinda how Babylon 5 handles firearms. They only do 2d6 - 3d8 damage, but hit points are low for everyone.

Nope.  HP progression is about on par with D&D.  There is a massive damage rule, but the threshold for it is high enough guns won't really tag it more than about half the time, and that's assuming average (10) Con.

Quote from: RezendevousI haven't used the firearms rules in Northern Crown yet, but they look solid.  I'd be tempted to use those if I were using firearms in a D&D game.  Probably its fencing rules too.

Oooh, fencing rules? Neat. Any specifics in how Northern Crown handles guns?

Keep in mind hp were originally intended as an abstract.  The problem with damage / hit points is the common assumption that a 50hp fighter losing 10 hp was "hit".  He most likely wasn't.  I blame the terms rolling "to hit" and rolling for "damage" for adding to the confusion.  It's hard to imagine someone being shot and simply dropping from 50 to 40 hp and keep on truckin'.  So they weren't shot.

If you're working from that perspective it changes how you'll approach firearms altogether. :)

Quote from: jrientsFor my next campaign my group will be doing a little number I'm calling Sky Pirates of Eberron.  We want to use some gunpowder in the game, but the Renaissance weapons rules in the DMG are falling a little flat for us.  Here are some prospects under considerations:

• Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.
• Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.
• Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats.  For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

Comments?  Any other ideas?

...

Well, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

Natually, you aren't responsible for my Pavlovian conditioning against campaigns with unbalanced weapons rules.  But that's my comment.

Quote from: hgjs...

Well, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

Natually, you aren't responsible for my Pavlovian conditioning against campaigns with unbalanced weapons rules.  But that's my comment.

qft.

touch attacks? wtf?

this is DnD. You stab a dude in the eye with a three foot sword and he keeps fighting. Dude's not even tired. Maybe in real life, a gun'll waste you in one or two shots, but this ain't no real life.

Quote from: hgjsWell, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

You're making me smile over here because of the origin of this thread.

Me: Since we're doing pirates, the flintlocks in the DMG are legal.

The Players: Yeah, but they kinda suck.  Can we spruce them up a little?  Otherwise, no one will use them.

Me: Okay, let's discuss options.  [Thinks to self: maybe I can get some good feeback from my homies at theRPGsite.]

Well, yeah, sometimes it pays to read the whole thread and think about it a little...

Quote from: jrientsYou're making me smile over here because of the origin of this thread.

Me: Since we're doing pirates, the flintlocks in the DMG are legal.

The Players: Yeah, but they kinda suck.  Can we spruce them up a little?  Otherwise, no one will use them.

Me: Okay, let's discuss options.  [Thinks to self: maybe I can get some good feeback from my homies at theRPGsite.]

I still say better to change the rules for hp, armor, and weapon proficiencies than to make guns pwn in all of the above categories.

Frankly, there are two things that make a gun suck. The first is that it requires a feat to use. The second is that it takes forever to load. Shooting once every other round just isn't worth it no matter what way you slice it.

To unsuck guns does not require you to mod attack rules, damage values, or crit ratings. It only requires you to make them moderately more available, compatible with rapid reload, and maybe houserule some (slightly more expensive) revolvers.

If you want flintlocks able to kill characters of higher levels in one or two shots, that's a call to mod the hit point system ('cause there's no reason other weapons shouldn't behave likewise).

If you want more damaging weapons to be more effective against armor, that's a call to mod the armor rules (because, again, the same should apply to other weapons).

Emphasis on second and third paragraphs.

well said, beejazz.  i have to remember that if/when i ever return to my 3.5 game (contains firearms).  stuart's  point is also valid--a character really only takes a lot of grazes instead of actual "hits" until they're almost out of hp.

beejaz, I totally understand your point.  But I ain't altering the hit point rules or anything else that will make stealing statblocks from modules a pain in the ass.

Quote from: jrientsbeejaz, I totally understand your point.  But I ain't altering the hit point rules or anything else that will make stealing statblocks from modules a pain in the ass.

Hmm... well, changing hp and armor rules isn't strictly necessary for the unsucking of guns...

...but that does kinda screw with weapon groups. Actually, just the one variant may be simple enough. Most NPCs have what? one melee/one ranged weapon? A couple with polearms and/or thrown weapons?

Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to port when it comes to NPCs, as most have the 2-3 weapon groups necessary to support that.

But all that's kinda moot without Unearthed Arcana, ain't it?

How about an initiative bonus for a loaded firearm or crossbow?  Keep in mind that you can carry a pair of loaded pistols in your belt, while a crossbow can't be slung and loaded (I don't think it can, anyway).

In the current rules, some weapons are just straight better than others. One doesn't need to remodel the whole system to shift this emphasis. Often a feat or a minor rule alteration is just enough, especially if don't want to change the whole feel of combat.

HackMaster made crossbows suddenly very attractive. If every dice re-rolls on the its highest number, then a weapon with 3d4 gets rather alluring. If this weapon now has the ability to re-roll on both the highest and second-highest result, carnage ensues.

That said, for a swashbuckling game, making guns deadlier isn't the only way to make them more popular. You don't necessarily need John Woo gunfighters in such a game. Making a pistol the best fire-and-forget weapon is another way to have them in the (left) hand of every sky pirate.
Maybe pistols don't cause attacks of opportunity when fired in melee combat.

(For added swashbuckling pleasure, remove the Two-Weapon feats and allow normal secondary hand attacks with the usual penalty. The penalty is reduced by the dexterity bonus, though. If that's enough, just do this for the base feat and let them buy the Improved and Advanced versions)

Sos, you've helped me understand exactly the effect I would like to see: Everyone carries a pistol or two.  Once per fight you pull it out and blow someone away.  You use your sword the rest of the battle.  Someone carrying 6 pistols like Long John Silver is going to be badass, but they shouldn't be unstoppable either.

Quote from: jrientsSos, you've helped me understand exactly the effect I would like to see: Everyone carries a pistol or two.

Special rule: if they hit, firearms automatically kill any NPC with a CR of 3-4 less than the firers character level?

Quote from: hgjs...

Well, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

Natually, you aren't responsible for my Pavlovian conditioning against campaigns with unbalanced weapons rules.  But that's my comment.

Over react much?   I agree that Jrients sort of went overboard a bit with his plan, but really.  Guns are the dominant weapon of the modern age for a number of reasons, most of which he was trying to adress. They are easy to use compared to most weapons, the punch through armor pretty darned effectively.  Making them quickloading wouldn't be my solution, but requiring extra feats to use them is the inverse of what Guns were, and are harmful to his campaign structure.

Of course, I got nothing to actually contribute here. I have enough problems with D&Disms that trying to fix how they interact with firearms is a losing proposition... :p

Quote from: SpikeI agree that Jrients sort of went overboard a bit with his plan, but really.

Point the first: I always plan to go overboard.  Believe it.  Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

Point the second: I don't have a plan.  If you look at my first post here all I've got are some "prospects under consideration".  Telling me one or more of these ideas is shitty is completely A-OKAY.  (Also, trying to read my DMing style into a little brainstorming on a rules tweak is a little more dubious.  But that's not directed at you, Spike.)

but that's the kicker, trying to make firearms attractive in d&d.  the more "realistic" you make them (e.g., reload times) the less likely anyone is to use them.  if i was going for realism, i certainly wouldn't use any level-based systems.  

that said, the changes others have suggested above are a pretty good start for a swashbuckling setting.

Quote from: SpikeOver react much?

What do you mean?  Responding to a request for comments is overreacting?  Declining in general to play in games with dodgy uber-weapon rules is overreacting?  Be specific, man! :p

Quote from: hgjsWhat do you mean?  Responding to a request for comments is overreacting?  Declining in general to play in games with dodgy uber-weapon rules is overreacting?  Be specific, man! :p

You would run screaming from the hordes of uber-katana weilding mofo's, because Jrients wants to make guns more attractive?

Weapon fetishization of flintlocks?

Specific enough? :p

He presented a problem: guns are necessary and common in the setting he's planning to run, but the rules make them singularly unattractive and 'unrealistic' for his players.   Nothing about katanae weilding ningae (pronounced Nin-GUY!, for maximum dorkage it should be shouted with fist pumping action... realism need not apply) and nothing about how flintlock rules are so broken, since even a glancing hit to the pinky toe should kill a dragon explosively.

At least... thats what they do in MY games...:D

Quote from: SpikeYou would run screaming from the hordes of uber-katana weilding mofo's, because Jrients wants to make guns more attractive?

Weapon fetishization of flintlocks?

Specific enough? :p

He presented a problem: guns are necessary and common in the setting he's planning to run, but the rules make them singularly unattractive and 'unrealistic' for his players.   Nothing about katanae weilding ningae (pronounced Nin-GUY!, for maximum dorkage it should be shouted with fist pumping action... realism need not apply) and nothing about how flintlock rules are so broken, since even a glancing hit to the pinky toe should kill a dragon explosively.

At least... thats what they do in MY games...:D

I think you and I have slightly differing opinions as to just how ass-numbingly broken his rules are.  'Cause from where I'm sitting, we've passed way into the D&D equivalent of katanas-chopping-in-half-tanks territory.

Quote from: hgjsI think you and I have slightly differing opinions as to just how ass-numbingly broken his rules are.  'Cause from where I'm sitting, we've passed way into the D&D equivalent of katanas-chopping-in-half-tanks territory.

I'm a player in Jeff's game, and I think the proposed rules are a bit much, but you are clearly engaging in hyperbole. His proposed changes:

1) Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.

- This adds no power to guns. It simply makes them more common - you don't have to spend a valuable feat to use them effectively.

2) Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

- This is more powerful, and I would say too powerful, but it isn't a katana chopping a tank in half. My suggestion was to have them be normal attacks, but make the crit confirm roll vs. touch AC.

3) Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats. For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

- This is just common sense, really. Why should guns have no applicable feats?

-Stuart

Quote from: szilardI'm a player in Jeff's game, and I think the proposed rules are a bit much, but you are clearly engaging in hyperbole. His proposed changes:

1) Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.

- This adds no power to guns. It simply makes them more common - you don't have to spend a valuable feat to use them effectively.

2) Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

- This is more powerful, and I would say too powerful, but it isn't a katana chopping a tank in half. My suggestion was to have them be normal attacks, but make the crit confirm roll vs. touch AC.

3) Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats. For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

- This is just common sense, really. Why should guns have no applicable feats?

-Stuart

Numbers 1 and 3 are obviously fine.  It's number 2 that is, shall we say, a little much.  Like Spike, you and I obviously disagree on exactly how overboard it is.

Could you please stop the full quotes?

An odd request, and not one I'm likely to remember, but sure (at least in this thread).

Quote from: hgjsNumbers 1 and 3 are obviously fine.  It's number 2 that is, shall we say, a little much.  Like Spike, you and I obviously disagree on exactly how overboard it is.

You might remember that I simply said you were overreacting, not that guns as 'touch attack' weapons was particularly brilliant.  I can see WHY he did it... and disagree just fine without screaming 'Uber-gun! Next see my katana chop a ninja in half!'


If you disagreed with three, I'd shrug and admit that it's a little fonkay, but then I'd point you to Iron Kingdoms, where they do just that.

Quote from: SpikeYou might remember that I simply said you were overreacting, not that guns as 'touch attack' weapons was particularly brilliant.  I can see WHY he did it... and disagree just fine without screaming 'Uber-gun! Next see my katana chop a ninja in half!'

Really, that's a remarkable talent.  You are a very powerful man.  I envy you.

QuoteIf you disagreed with three

I don't, especially considering the campaign.

UPDATE:  I decided to drop the ranged touch attack idea.  The final form of the rules tweak is pretty simple: guns are martial weapons, the crit is bumped to x4, and crossbow feats are useable with 'em.

Thanks to everyone who weighed in on this thread.

that sounds good.  what are reload times like?  the ones from the dmg?

Quote from: beeberthat sounds good.  what are reload times like?  the ones from the dmg?

Yep.