How about an initiative bonus for a loaded firearm or crossbow?  Keep in mind that you can carry a pair of loaded pistols in your belt, while a crossbow can't be slung and loaded (I don't think it can, anyway).

In the current rules, some weapons are just straight better than others. One doesn't need to remodel the whole system to shift this emphasis. Often a feat or a minor rule alteration is just enough, especially if don't want to change the whole feel of combat.

HackMaster made crossbows suddenly very attractive. If every dice re-rolls on the its highest number, then a weapon with 3d4 gets rather alluring. If this weapon now has the ability to re-roll on both the highest and second-highest result, carnage ensues.

That said, for a swashbuckling game, making guns deadlier isn't the only way to make them more popular. You don't necessarily need John Woo gunfighters in such a game. Making a pistol the best fire-and-forget weapon is another way to have them in the (left) hand of every sky pirate.
Maybe pistols don't cause attacks of opportunity when fired in melee combat.

(For added swashbuckling pleasure, remove the Two-Weapon feats and allow normal secondary hand attacks with the usual penalty. The penalty is reduced by the dexterity bonus, though. If that's enough, just do this for the base feat and let them buy the Improved and Advanced versions)

Sos, you've helped me understand exactly the effect I would like to see: Everyone carries a pistol or two.  Once per fight you pull it out and blow someone away.  You use your sword the rest of the battle.  Someone carrying 6 pistols like Long John Silver is going to be badass, but they shouldn't be unstoppable either.

Quote from: jrientsSos, you've helped me understand exactly the effect I would like to see: Everyone carries a pistol or two.

Special rule: if they hit, firearms automatically kill any NPC with a CR of 3-4 less than the firers character level?

Quote from: hgjs...

Well, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

Natually, you aren't responsible for my Pavlovian conditioning against campaigns with unbalanced weapons rules.  But that's my comment.

Over react much?   I agree that Jrients sort of went overboard a bit with his plan, but really.  Guns are the dominant weapon of the modern age for a number of reasons, most of which he was trying to adress. They are easy to use compared to most weapons, the punch through armor pretty darned effectively.  Making them quickloading wouldn't be my solution, but requiring extra feats to use them is the inverse of what Guns were, and are harmful to his campaign structure.

Of course, I got nothing to actually contribute here. I have enough problems with D&Disms that trying to fix how they interact with firearms is a losing proposition...

Quote from: SpikeI agree that Jrients sort of went overboard a bit with his plan, but really.

Point the first: I always plan to go overboard.  Believe it.  Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

Point the second: I don't have a plan.  If you look at my first post here all I've got are some "prospects under consideration".  Telling me one or more of these ideas is shitty is completely A-OKAY.  (Also, trying to read my DMing style into a little brainstorming on a rules tweak is a little more dubious.  But that's not directed at you, Spike.)

but that's the kicker, trying to make firearms attractive in d&d.  the more "realistic" you make them (e.g., reload times) the less likely anyone is to use them.  if i was going for realism, i certainly wouldn't use any level-based systems.  

that said, the changes others have suggested above are a pretty good start for a swashbuckling setting.

Quote from: SpikeOver react much?

What do you mean?  Responding to a request for comments is overreacting?  Declining in general to play in games with dodgy uber-weapon rules is overreacting?  Be specific, man!

Quote from: hgjsWhat do you mean?  Responding to a request for comments is overreacting?  Declining in general to play in games with dodgy uber-weapon rules is overreacting?  Be specific, man!

You would run screaming from the hordes of uber-katana weilding mofo's, because Jrients wants to make guns more attractive?

Weapon fetishization of flintlocks?

Specific enough?

He presented a problem: guns are necessary and common in the setting he's planning to run, but the rules make them singularly unattractive and 'unrealistic' for his players.   Nothing about katanae weilding ningae (pronounced Nin-GUY!, for maximum dorkage it should be shouted with fist pumping action... realism need not apply) and nothing about how flintlock rules are so broken, since even a glancing hit to the pinky toe should kill a dragon explosively.

At least... thats what they do in MY games...

Quote from: SpikeYou would run screaming from the hordes of uber-katana weilding mofo's, because Jrients wants to make guns more attractive?

Weapon fetishization of flintlocks?

Specific enough?

He presented a problem: guns are necessary and common in the setting he's planning to run, but the rules make them singularly unattractive and 'unrealistic' for his players.   Nothing about katanae weilding ningae (pronounced Nin-GUY!, for maximum dorkage it should be shouted with fist pumping action... realism need not apply) and nothing about how flintlock rules are so broken, since even a glancing hit to the pinky toe should kill a dragon explosively.

At least... thats what they do in MY games...

I think you and I have slightly differing opinions as to just how ass-numbingly broken his rules are.  'Cause from where I'm sitting, we've passed way into the D&D equivalent of katanas-chopping-in-half-tanks territory.

Quote from: hgjsI think you and I have slightly differing opinions as to just how ass-numbingly broken his rules are.  'Cause from where I'm sitting, we've passed way into the D&D equivalent of katanas-chopping-in-half-tanks territory.

I'm a player in Jeff's game, and I think the proposed rules are a bit much, but you are clearly engaging in hyperbole. His proposed changes:

1) Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.

- This adds no power to guns. It simply makes them more common - you don't have to spend a valuable feat to use them effectively.

2) Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

- This is more powerful, and I would say too powerful, but it isn't a katana chopping a tank in half. My suggestion was to have them be normal attacks, but make the crit confirm roll vs. touch AC.

3) Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats. For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

- This is just common sense, really. Why should guns have no applicable feats?

-Stuart

Quote from: szilardI'm a player in Jeff's game, and I think the proposed rules are a bit much, but you are clearly engaging in hyperbole. His proposed changes:

1) Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.

- This adds no power to guns. It simply makes them more common - you don't have to spend a valuable feat to use them effectively.

2) Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

- This is more powerful, and I would say too powerful, but it isn't a katana chopping a tank in half. My suggestion was to have them be normal attacks, but make the crit confirm roll vs. touch AC.

3) Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats. For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

- This is just common sense, really. Why should guns have no applicable feats?

-Stuart

Numbers 1 and 3 are obviously fine.  It's number 2 that is, shall we say, a little much.  Like Spike, you and I obviously disagree on exactly how overboard it is.

Could you please stop the full quotes?

An odd request, and not one I'm likely to remember, but sure (at least in this thread).

Quote from: hgjsNumbers 1 and 3 are obviously fine.  It's number 2 that is, shall we say, a little much.  Like Spike, you and I obviously disagree on exactly how overboard it is.

You might remember that I simply said you were overreacting, not that guns as 'touch attack' weapons was particularly brilliant.  I can see WHY he did it... and disagree just fine without screaming 'Uber-gun! Next see my katana chop a ninja in half!'


If you disagreed with three, I'd shrug and admit that it's a little fonkay, but then I'd point you to Iron Kingdoms, where they do just that.