I haven't used the firearms rules in Northern Crown yet, but they look solid.  I'd be tempted to use those if I were using firearms in a D&D game.  Probably its fencing rules too.

Quote from: J ArcaneYou really wouldn't want to.  They're horrid.

Ok. Maybe I wouldn't. What's so bad about them?

Quote from: James McMurrayOk. Maybe I wouldn't. What's so bad about them?

Well, damage and crit wise, they're way underpowered, for one.  The crit as bad as a D&D light mace.

The autofire rules are all messed up too, but that's not gonna matter much for a flintlock type era.

Are hit points lower in d20 Modern? Maybe the lower damage reflects that? It's kinda how Babylon 5 handles firearms. They only do 2d6 - 3d8 damage, but hit points are low for everyone.

Quote from: James McMurrayAre hit points lower in d20 Modern? Maybe the lower damage reflects that? It's kinda how Babylon 5 handles firearms. They only do 2d6 - 3d8 damage, but hit points are low for everyone.

Nope.  HP progression is about on par with D&D.  There is a massive damage rule, but the threshold for it is high enough guns won't really tag it more than about half the time, and that's assuming average (10) Con.

Quote from: RezendevousI haven't used the firearms rules in Northern Crown yet, but they look solid.  I'd be tempted to use those if I were using firearms in a D&D game.  Probably its fencing rules too.

Oooh, fencing rules? Neat. Any specifics in how Northern Crown handles guns?

Keep in mind hp were originally intended as an abstract.  The problem with damage / hit points is the common assumption that a 50hp fighter losing 10 hp was "hit".  He most likely wasn't.  I blame the terms rolling "to hit" and rolling for "damage" for adding to the confusion.  It's hard to imagine someone being shot and simply dropping from 50 to 40 hp and keep on truckin'.  So they weren't shot.

If you're working from that perspective it changes how you'll approach firearms altogether.

Quote from: jrientsFor my next campaign my group will be doing a little number I'm calling Sky Pirates of Eberron.  We want to use some gunpowder in the game, but the Renaissance weapons rules in the DMG are falling a little flat for us.  Here are some prospects under considerations:

• Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.
• Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.
• Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats.  For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

Comments?  Any other ideas?

...

Well, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

Natually, you aren't responsible for my Pavlovian conditioning against campaigns with unbalanced weapons rules.  But that's my comment.

Quote from: hgjs...

Well, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

Natually, you aren't responsible for my Pavlovian conditioning against campaigns with unbalanced weapons rules.  But that's my comment.

qft.

touch attacks? wtf?

this is DnD. You stab a dude in the eye with a three foot sword and he keeps fighting. Dude's not even tired. Maybe in real life, a gun'll waste you in one or two shots, but this ain't no real life.

Quote from: hgjsWell, not intending to diss you, but I would run screaming from a campaign with house rules like that.  I'm getting flashbacks to Katana: The Ubering -- when it looks like the GM has a fetish for a specific type of weapon, in my experience that's a sure sign the game is going to suck.

You're making me smile over here because of the origin of this thread.

Me: Since we're doing pirates, the flintlocks in the DMG are legal.

The Players: Yeah, but they kinda suck.  Can we spruce them up a little?  Otherwise, no one will use them.

Me: Okay, let's discuss options.  [Thinks to self: maybe I can get some good feeback from my homies at theRPGsite.]

Well, yeah, sometimes it pays to read the whole thread and think about it a little...

Quote from: jrientsYou're making me smile over here because of the origin of this thread.

Me: Since we're doing pirates, the flintlocks in the DMG are legal.

The Players: Yeah, but they kinda suck.  Can we spruce them up a little?  Otherwise, no one will use them.

Me: Okay, let's discuss options.  [Thinks to self: maybe I can get some good feeback from my homies at theRPGsite.]

I still say better to change the rules for hp, armor, and weapon proficiencies than to make guns pwn in all of the above categories.

Frankly, there are two things that make a gun suck. The first is that it requires a feat to use. The second is that it takes forever to load. Shooting once every other round just isn't worth it no matter what way you slice it.

To unsuck guns does not require you to mod attack rules, damage values, or crit ratings. It only requires you to make them moderately more available, compatible with rapid reload, and maybe houserule some (slightly more expensive) revolvers.

If you want flintlocks able to kill characters of higher levels in one or two shots, that's a call to mod the hit point system ('cause there's no reason other weapons shouldn't behave likewise).

If you want more damaging weapons to be more effective against armor, that's a call to mod the armor rules (because, again, the same should apply to other weapons).

Emphasis on second and third paragraphs.

well said, beejazz.  i have to remember that if/when i ever return to my 3.5 game (contains firearms).  stuart's  point is also valid--a character really only takes a lot of grazes instead of actual "hits" until they're almost out of hp.

beejaz, I totally understand your point.  But I ain't altering the hit point rules or anything else that will make stealing statblocks from modules a pain in the ass.

Quote from: jrientsbeejaz, I totally understand your point.  But I ain't altering the hit point rules or anything else that will make stealing statblocks from modules a pain in the ass.

Hmm... well, changing hp and armor rules isn't strictly necessary for the unsucking of guns...

...but that does kinda screw with weapon groups. Actually, just the one variant may be simple enough. Most NPCs have what? one melee/one ranged weapon? A couple with polearms and/or thrown weapons?

Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to port when it comes to NPCs, as most have the 2-3 weapon groups necessary to support that.

But all that's kinda moot without Unearthed Arcana, ain't it?