Guns in 3.5

jrients · December 19, 2006, 10:39:10 AM

For my next campaign my group will be doing a little number I'm calling Sky Pirates of Eberron. We want to use some gunpowder in the game, but the Renaissance weapons rules in the DMG are falling a little flat for us. Here are some prospects under considerations:

Firearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.
Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.
Crossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats. For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

Comments? Any other ideas?

Dr Rotwang! · December 19, 2006, 10:44:27 AM

Quote from: jrients
Guns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

Whyzzat? Curiosity alone prompts this.

Sosthenes · December 19, 2006, 10:51:58 AM

Quote from: jrientsFirearms are Martial Weapons instead of Exotic.

You could go one step further and make them Simple weapons, like crossbows. They'll be the new craze for Sorcerer's and Clerics, too.

Quote from: jrientsGuns use ranged touch attacks to hit targets.

Erm, a bit too much, unless you change your whole game. Spellslinger uses this, but they also have level-dependent initiative and AC bonuses to balance things out.
Iron Kingdom's 19-20/x4 crits seem quite alright. Or use the old penetration damage rules (roll again and add on highest result). Particularly nasty if there are guns with two dice.

Quote from: jrientsCrossbow-oriented feats would be re-written as gun feats. For example, Rapid Reload would make recharging your gun a swift action.

Swift? For muzzleloaders?

Abyssal Maw · December 19, 2006, 11:01:05 AM

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Whyzzat? Curiosity alone prompts this.

If you use Ranged Touch then armor doesn't affect whether or not you get hit by a gun, only dexterity.

And cover.

jrients · December 19, 2006, 11:05:03 AM

Quote from: DocWhyzzat? Curiosity alone prompts this.

It's stupid terminology for something rather simple: your armor or thick hide doesn't count.

Quote from: SosthenesYou could go one step further and make them Simple weapons, like crossbows. They'll be the new craze for Sorcerer's and Clerics, too.

I can see that.

QuoteErm, a bit too much, unless you change your whole game. Spellslinger uses this, but they also have level-dependent initiative and AC bonuses to balance things out.

We're using Defense Bonus, as described in the Unearthed Arcana.

QuoteIron Kingdom's 19-20/x4 crits seem quite alright. Or use the old penetration damage rules (roll again and add on highest result). Particularly nasty if there are guns with two dice.

Both of those sound tasty. In 2nd edition I once brought down a giant airsquid with a single arquebus shot thanks to the exploding dice.

QuoteSwift? For muzzleloaders?

The concern here is that unless you can up the rate of fire guns will become extremely sub-optimal at high levels. I can deal with sub-optimal, but I don't want the cool/bad mechanics trade-off to be too severe.

Blackleaf · December 19, 2006, 11:19:36 AM

QuoteThe concern here is that unless you can up the rate of fire guns will become extremely sub-optimal at high levels. I can deal with sub-optimal, but I don't want the cool/bad mechanics trade-off to be too severe.

Characters might have a brace of pistols (2) which will up the rate of fire -- for 2 rounds at least.

They might also have a henchman handing them freshly loaded rifles.

Sosthenes · December 19, 2006, 11:22:22 AM

Quote from: jrientsWe're using Defense Bonus, as described in the Unearthed Arcana.

Armor as DR? It would be pretty bad if my whole +5 heavy fortification plate armor would be useless simply if someone pulls out a derringer. And it's unfair for the (x-)bow dudes in the party.

QuoteThe concern here is that unless you can up the rate of fire guns will become extremely sub-optimal at high levels. I can deal with sub-optimal, but I don't want the cool/bad mechanics trade-off to be too severe.

You're playing Eberron, so pretty much anything goes. The drawback is mainly visible at higher levels, so I'd just introduce some technical or magical marvel that takes care of this problem. Revolvers, pepperboxes, belt-fed heavy weapons, magical guns with built-in fire and earth elementals (cf. sky ships) etc.

jrients · December 19, 2006, 11:28:24 AM

Quote from: SosthenesArmor as DR? It would be pretty bad if my whole +5 heavy fortification plate armor would be useless simply if someone pulls out a derringer. And it's unfair for the (x-)bow dudes in the party.

Actually, giving the finger to guys in platemail is exactly the effect I'm going for. Ditto crossbows.

Sosthenes · December 19, 2006, 11:38:19 AM

You're giving the finger to the guys with swords, too. Better make everything a "touch" attack (i.e. let armor modify something else). I can understand the need for a more swashbuckling style, but as a player I prefer it when there's some kind of trade-off between armor and no armor. Like getting hit more often, but not hurting as much afterwards.

Conan D20 might work quite well for this, with their armor piercing and finesse rules.

jrients · December 19, 2006, 11:45:43 AM

Quote from: SosthenesYou're giving the finger to the guys with swords, too.

Howso? A master pistoleer and a master swordsman face off. Neither is wearing armor. Both have Defensive Bonus. Where is the overwhelming advantage? I'd say the swordsman with 4 or 5 attacks would be in pretty good shape if he was close to the pistoleer.

Dr Rotwang! · December 19, 2006, 11:48:18 AM

Quote from: Abyssal MawIf you use Ranged Touch then armor doesn't affect whether or not you get hit by a gun, only dexterity.

And cover.

Quote from: jrientsIt's stupid terminology for something rather simple: your armor or thick hide doesn't count.

...y'see, this's what happens when I stop playing d20 and, umn, forget his type thing.

Sosthenes · December 19, 2006, 11:58:45 AM

Quote from: jrientsHowso? A master pistoleer and a master swordsman face off. Neither is wearing armor. Both have Defensive Bonus. Where is the overwhelming advantage? I'd say the swordsman with 4 or 5 attacks would be in pretty good shape if he was close to the pistoleer.

I was talking about ranged touch only for guns. Assuming that armor still gives you AC normally. So you're fighting the highly armored bodyguard of house Wossname and your sword just can't get through. The cleric of Twogooddomains at your side aims with his raggedy old musket and easily hits. Next in the initiative is the quick-drawing Telling Blow rogue with his two pistol bandoleers...

If only pistols get ranged touch, everyone will use just those. Which is fine for Spellslinger, but I don't know if that's what you intend. I think I just don't know all of your relevant house rules, though...

One Horse Town · December 19, 2006, 12:16:59 PM

Alternatively, you could have firearms do Constitution damage instead of hit point damage (although both could go done at once). This would actually give an advantage to lower level characters over higher level ones as the difference in Con. is not going to be high over 10 levels (well, 2 max if you put all your advances into Con.) This gives them a big fear factor.

If that is done, leave any other mods, like ranged touch, etc alone.

jrients · December 19, 2006, 12:17:58 PM

Sosthenes: Okay, now I see your point. I'm not sure you've convinced me to drop the touch attack idea, but you've got me thinking about the ramifications of it.

James McMurray · December 19, 2006, 12:31:40 PM

Will there be monsters? Removing natural armor from the equation means it's easier to hit and damage a colossal great wyrm red dragon with a +39 natural armor bonus then it is a 6 year old quadrapalegic with a 2 dexterity.