I have read the book and used parts of it for lectures.  As I recall (my copy of the book is at my work office), he was a medical doctor or biochemist when he wrote the book.  Now he is referred to as a scientist-writer in bios as his books have made him well-known.

Quote from: Persimmon on October 10, 2023, 04:13:36 PM
I have read the book and used parts of it for lectures.  As I recall (my copy of the book is at my work office), he was a medical doctor or biochemist when he wrote the book.  Now he is referred to as a scientist-writer in bios as his books have made him well-known.

Expanding a bit - he had professorships in three fields (physiology, ecology, and environmental history) starting in the 1960s before writing GG&S in 1997. From Wikipedia:

QuoteHe attended the Roxbury Latin School and studied biochemical sciences at Harvard College, graduating in 1958. He obtained his PhD from Trinity College, Cambridge in 1961, with a thesis on the physiology and biophysics of membranes in the gallbladder.

After graduation from Cambridge, Diamond returned to Harvard as a Junior Fellow until 1965, and, in 1968, became a professor of physiology at UCLA Medical School. While in his twenties he developed a second, parallel, career in ornithology and ecology, specialising in New Guinea and nearby islands, which he began visiting from 1964. Later, in his fifties, Diamond developed a third career in environmental history and became a professor of geography at UCLA, his current position.

Quote from: BadApple on October 08, 2023, 08:49:33 AM
The book Guns, Germs, and Steel has a few big flaws in that it omits some important historical context and some of the data presented is wrong.  Don't take it as The Big Truth for world building purposes.  This isn't the place to do a deep dive on the issue but a quick google search will get you started.

That said, if you're world building, looking at how mundane things shape culture and history is an excellent idea.  Another book one should read if you're doing world building is Salt, a History of the World.  It's all about the how the need and production of salt shaped history and culture around the world.

A good book to wash out the taste of the postmodern apologia claptrap that is Guns, Germs, and Steel:

The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: by David S. Landes

Quote from: Jaeger on October 10, 2023, 06:30:32 PM

A good book to wash out the taste of the postmodern apologia claptrap that is Guns, Germs, and Steel:

The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: by David S. Landes

Yes, indeed.

Quote from: Jaeger on October 10, 2023, 06:30:32 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 08, 2023, 08:49:33 AM
The book Guns, Germs, and Steel has a few big flaws in that it omits some important historical context and some of the data presented is wrong.  Don't take it as The Big Truth for world building purposes.  This isn't the place to do a deep dive on the issue but a quick google search will get you started.

That said, if you're world building, looking at how mundane things shape culture and history is an excellent idea.  Another book one should read if you're doing world building is Salt, a History of the World.  It's all about the how the need and production of salt shaped history and culture around the world.

A good book to wash out the taste of the postmodern apologia claptrap that is Guns, Germs, and Steel:

The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: by David S. Landes

Except that it's also full of bad assumptions, omissions, and other ridiculous statements and logic jumps.  But more importantly, most of the "rich nations" he discusses have been systematically shooting themselves in the foot for the past three decades.  So that kind of undermines his culturally-based argument since it doesn't allow much for change.  The problem is that none of these grand narrative approaches really hold up, because they try to do too much and realities are always more contingent and complicated when the general public just wants simple answers and quick fixes.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 07, 2023, 07:31:24 PM
If you were to use Guns, Germs, and Steel in your worldbuilding, or you do, how would/how do you use it?

To anyone that doesn't know that GGS is: it's basically a paper suggesting that geography and climate, not innate ability, affects the development of human civilization. The Native Americans weren't inferior because they couldn't build a civilization with iron working, gunpowder, and astronomy, they just had bad geography and little to no domesticable animals. If you put the whitest people in Pre-Columbian America, they would face the same problems. In Diamond's view, whether you can achieve Eurasian levels of civilization by the 11,500th year after developing agriculture  (10,000 BCE + 11,500 = 1500 CE) depends on

- if your continent is longer than it is tall
- if you have anything to domesticate
- if your crops have good yield and are easy to grow


Of note is the explanation for Europe's division- the fractured land theory. https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jesusfv/Fractured_Land.pdf which has been supported by a simulation.

And this has to do with TTRPGs? We play in worlds formed and maintained by Magic 

Quote from: Jaeger on October 10, 2023, 06:30:32 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 08, 2023, 08:49:33 AM
The book Guns, Germs, and Steel has a few big flaws in that it omits some important historical context and some of the data presented is wrong.  Don't take it as The Big Truth for world building purposes.  This isn't the place to do a deep dive on the issue but a quick google search will get you started.

That said, if you're world building, looking at how mundane things shape culture and history is an excellent idea.  Another book one should read if you're doing world building is Salt, a History of the World.  It's all about the how the need and production of salt shaped history and culture around the world.

A good book to wash out the taste of the postmodern apologia claptrap that is Guns, Germs, and Steel:

The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: by David S. Landes

Greetings!

"Post modern apologia claptrap!"

Excellent, Jaeger! I love it.

*Sigh* Diamond's book is sounding more and more suspicious. That's sad. Why couldn't he just write a decent scholarly book on history, geography, and anthropology, providing some interesting analysis and commentary?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Persimmon on October 10, 2023, 06:40:35 PM
The problem is that none of these grand narrative approaches really hold up, because they try to do too much and realities are always more contingent and complicated when the general public just wants simple answers and quick fixes.

An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith holds up under scrutiny because he never claims to have unlocked "the big secret."  He describes the parts that he didn't understand as "the unseen guiding hand" and alludes to the idea it may be of a spiritual nature.  He doesn't try to lock it down.

Several books that explore the grand narrative would be better served if they would assume a position of exploring and appreciating the questions rather than arrogantly positing "the answer."

I would highlight that Stephen Hawkins got it wrong on black holes.  At least he was honest enough to admit it.

Rolling back to RPGs and world building, I think it's a great idea for a creator to look at how things are interconnected, how the mundane affects the the things at large, and how certain elements of your world shape the stage your players act upon.  In the end, I don't believe academia at any level should command how I game but I can borrow and steal  from any source I think might make my sessions more fun for myself and my players.

Quote from: Persimmon on October 10, 2023, 06:40:35 PM

Except that it's also full of bad assumptions, omissions, and other ridiculous statements and logic jumps. But more importantly, most of the "rich nations" he discusses have been systematically shooting themselves in the foot for the past three decades.So that kind of undermines his culturally-based argument since it doesn't allow much for change.  The problem is that none of these grand narrative approaches really hold up, because they try to do too much and realities are always more contingent and complicated when the general public just wants simple answers and quick fixes.

It's not perfect. No book of that type is.

As to:

Quote from: Persimmon on October 10, 2023, 06:40:35 PMBut more importantly, most of the "rich nations" he discusses have been systematically shooting themselves in the foot for the past three decades.  So that kind of undermines his culturally-based argument since it doesn't allow much for change.

In my opinion that is an oversimplification of his core argument: That certain cultural values and traits are better than others.

The cultures that embrace them prosper, and the ones that don't either fail, or greatly hinder their prosperity.

Of course culture can change over time. And in a negative fashion. I don't see where he says that this does not, or cannot happen.

After all, many once mighty cultures have fallen due to: "systematically shooting themselves in the foot".

No one is immune to self-destruction.

Quote from: Persimmon on October 10, 2023, 06:40:35 PM
  But more importantly, most of the "rich nations" he discusses have been systematically shooting themselves in the foot for the past three decades. 

He says nowhere in the book that societies cannot or do not change over time, and for the worse. Then becoming LESS prosperous.  Thus your argument is a nothing burger.

Quote from: Jaeger on October 10, 2023, 06:30:32 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 08, 2023, 08:49:33 AM
The book Guns, Germs, and Steel has a few big flaws in that it omits some important historical context and some of the data presented is wrong.  Don't take it as The Big Truth for world building purposes.  This isn't the place to do a deep dive on the issue but a quick google search will get you started.

That said, if you're world building, looking at how mundane things shape culture and history is an excellent idea.  Another book one should read if you're doing world building is Salt, a History of the World.  It's all about the how the need and production of salt shaped history and culture around the world.

A good book to wash out the taste of the postmodern apologia claptrap that is Guns, Germs, and Steel:

The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: by David S. Landes

> guns germs and steel is postmodern

What

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 09, 2023, 10:52:06 PM

Quote from: tenbones on October 09, 2023, 11:05:42 AM
After all, your players aren't going to be doing anthropology are they?

Np, the anthropology majors do Tekumel.

Touche.

By the way, I have a little heartwarming story from using this book in teaching.

We had been discussing a couple of other books and when I got to Guns Germs and Steel, I noticed one Asian-American student rolling her eyes.
I asked why, and she said "because of the ridiculous white guilt in the introduction!"
Then I remembered author (Diamond) talks in the introduction about how it is important to remember not to be racist, and that the reason why some populations lag behind others technologically is not due to race. But then he goes on to say that he does believe that some of the non-white races are, in fact, smarter than whites (I believe he was actually talking about people from Papua New Guinea here). I have to admit that it is pretty cringe-worthy and proto-woke.

The heartwarming part was that the student recognized this, and this is now maybe five years ago.

The problem with guns, germs and steel is that our ancestors in the old world had to domesticate bison and cattle.  North America had access to bison and could have started the domestication process, they never did.  North America has the best navigable water ways in the world with ample access to salt and iron, the natives never built upon it.  A better way of looking at it is one tribe had an ancestor who had an idea and followed through, the North American tribes did not.

A lot of discussion is going on about the credibility of the book rather than it's usefulness in world building.  I'm at least partially to blame due to the fact I was one of the earliest to take a shot at the book.  So let me try to help get it back on line.

If you're doing a historical game, I think it's a poor use of your time (setting aside any flaws in it) because there are better ways to establish the experience of the setting.  An RPG is about experiencing the lives of the PCs.  I would think more direct and human historical material would be more useful.  After all, you don't need to construct your setting, just lay it out.

If you're doing a fantastic fantasy setting, particularly where magic is a thing, then GG&S isn't going to be very useful on laying out how the culture is going to develop.  Maybe as a cursory question of "why is this group in a different place than that group?" but not for actual world building.

The only place where GG&S would be useful is if your world building is "just like real earth but with different land mass shapes."  That would be a fairly niche game.  At this point, geopolitical theory would be important and a look at academic sources might be useful.  However, GG&S isn't comprehensive and sets aside some more common root concepts that I think should be more focused on. 

Lastly, if you read a book that sparks your imagination, good.  As creators and GMs, it's our job to make a good game and the imagination flowing is an important part of that,  However, I think the real value in RPGs is limited at best and a distraction in function.