D&D is more than all of these things it is a force of nature.

Quote from: Doughdee222;891047This is all rather an interesting question. Reminds me of "The Problem of the Heap." When does a heap start/stop being a heap? Or evolution: when does something start/stop being that thing?

For what it's worth, I've been working on a Lejendary Adventure/Advanced Dungeons & Dragons hybrid. The two systems have very different feels to them.

I found I could add, change, and delete D&D classes to incorporate more LA-style classes, which are very different, and it still feels like D&D. Races, too.

I found that I could scrap the NWP system in favor of LA's skill system, including re-categorizing the thieving skills to match LA's skill set. And it still feels like D&D.

I can shift to LA-style weapon/armor/damage system, which has most weapons all doing the same die for damage, armor working as an armor absorb, etc. In order to rip LA's game numbers wholecloth, I have to double the amount of hit points the D&D character gets. I also have to implement a "fixed" AC, since armor doesn't make things easier or harder to hit. It sounds like a lot of steps, but it still feels like D&D in play.

I can replace the six attributes with skills, because LA's skill system is broad-based and it includes things like "Physique" which functionally does all the same things as "Strength" in D&D. Still retains the feel.

Some special class skills, such as Ranger tracking, easily translate over to LA's skill system. Others, like Paladin healing, requires a little bit more on the conversion end of things. I actually have to include "Theurgy" ability as part of the class, then restrict the Paladin to just the spells that imitate class functions. This is actually a plus, in a way, because I can suppose that the in-world order are the ones who train and restrict access in this way. It opens the door to easily creating alternative orders of Paladins who favor different powers.

Speaking of powers, I have to swap out spell memorization for a mana-based system. This sort of thing has been house-ruled in D&D a number of times. I know I've done it years ago. It does change the feel of the magic system a little, but overall it still feels like D&D.

Since hit points are already like LA's "Health" and Movement rate is already like LA's "Speed", and are on the same scale at this point, I just need to add in Precision. This really doesn't disrupt anything. It gives me a default score to fall back on when adjudicating. And it allows me to port in specific LA maneuvers easily. Similarly, I can port in the Intellect rating. No big deal.

From there I can scrap Saving Throws and replace them with LA's avoidance check system. What I found preserves the feel of D&D here is to keep the categories (which later editions bastardized). Save vs Petrifaction, for example, instead of looking up a table, just becomes Intellect+Speed as a percentage chance for success. Save vs Charm magics use Intellect. Note, saving vs Spell is still more difficult than save vs Petrifaction, and Mages are generally going to be better at saving vs spells than fighters will be.

Alignment replaced with LA's Repute/Disrepute system. A lot of people either dislike or don't understand D&D's alignment system anyway. A lot of people wouldn't even notice the change.

Now unless I've forgotten something, the last thing is to convert all dice checks--which is pretty much just hit rolls since I've converted all the skills--into percentile. Do that and the game has been completely converted to LA. Well, except for converting D&D monsters. I honestly think it's the monsters and the d20 that hold the magic essence of the D&D feel.

In terms of rules for RPGs everything is on a spectrum. What matter is how much work it takes to use supplement A with Rule system B. This includes different editions of the same game and different games.

For example using AD&D adventures with Castles and Crusades from Trolls Lord Games is trivial. Which is understandable given the goals of the authors. Using AD&D supplement is not quite as easy with C&C use to that game's use of the Seige Engine to handle a lot of what players attempt to do. However with OSRIC it is trivial because how the author designed that game to be as compatible with AD&D as possible.

Plus it is partially subjective, as one referee or group may get bent out of shape if the creature and NPC statistics are not in the exact format of their chosen game. While another find it trivial to combine two supplement from two very games.

To complicate things, different subject matters may be easier versus other. The domain management system for a campaign may be cobbled together from a half-dozen RPGs while combat is run RAW. Another example is the use of GURPS 3rd Edition setting books in other RPGs (GURPS Rome, GURPS Eqypt, etc).

In short there no clear answer to what is D&D as a system. We can point to a specific edition with the D&D brand and say that we are playing that. Or we can say that I am playing X (like OSRIC) and that I find using supplements from Y (AD&D 1st in OSRIC's case) is trivial.

The OSR relies on the fact that using material between different classic editions of D&D (OD&D, Holmes, B/X, BECMI, AD&D 1st, AD&D 2nd) is often trivial than difficult. So RPGs labeling them as part of the OSR tend to reuse or adapt mechanics found those editions. Which give a fan of classic editions of D&D a wide range of choices for his campaign.

And even if the gamer is a fan of only a particular classic edition of D&D. The side effect of the OSR is that there is wealth of supplements and adventures for that specific edition.

But there is a point where trying to use a supplement or adventure becomes too much work to make it worthwhile. It is that nebulous line where something ceases to be X, in this case ceases to be D&D.

the God is in the Gaps!!!! Lookit all the gaps!!!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;890872A genre is a collection of tropes and expectations.  And D&D as a system creates a series of tropes and expectations that no other fantasy game, novel or movie.  Most other game systems you can kinda/sorta make them work within a different set of tropes, but D&D is pretty much its own thing.

D&D is a system.

People creating tropey expectations are trying to turn D&D into a genre.  Case in point; look at that url up there.

Quote from: Sommerjon;891247D&D is a system.

Well yes, but it doesn't stop it from also being a genre.  This isn't an all or nothing category, you know.

Quote from: Sommerjon;891247People creating tropey expectations are trying to turn D&D into a genre.  Case in point; look at that url up there.

Generalist wizards are generally unique to D&D, most other Fantasy settings have the idea of specialties.  For example, the Diviner (a school D&D took from literature) is also known as Oracles, Soothsayers among other things, rarely have spells or abilities beyond reading the past or future.  An Enchantress beguiles and bedevils her prey, but I've yet to read/see one throw a fireball, read the future, conjure an army of undead.  Most literature names their casters by what they specialize in.

Magic never ever failing and is more reliable than actual science, is another trope unique to D&D.

Beholders, Mind Flayers (items that are actually copyrighted) also unique tropes to D&D.

It's also a genre.

Quote from: estar;887894It both.

Yep. Pretty much no way around it.

I'll go further, there are elements of the D&D game that are just the game experience, then there are elements of the game that have a direct bearing on the distinctive "substrate" setting of D&D.

And, to me, those variants of D&D that go forth and dispense with the system-informed metasetting elements are "less D&D".

Now this is all perspective, but to me everything before AD&D 1e was "the formative years"; elements like Dragon and Strategic Review articles got synthesized into the game that was 1e. You take away from the more "setting-visible" elements*, you are taking away from your game setting's inherent "D&D"-ness.

IMADO

* - Things like alignment, the great wheel, and vancian magic are "setting visible". Percentile strength is not.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;891281Beholders, Mind Flayers (items that are actually copyrighted) also unique tropes to D&D.

I don't see proprietary monsters as contributing to it being its own genre. A lot of games have at least a few unique critters. Marvel isn't a distinct genre from DC just because each has its own copyrighted heroes.

Quote from: Simlasa;891317I don't see proprietary monsters as contributing to it being its own genre. A lot of games have at least a few unique critters. Marvel isn't a distinct genre from DC just because each has its own copyrighted heroes.

OTOH, if you play D&D with most or all of the elements in even just the core books in play, you're going to wind up with something that is a distinctive hodgepodge of fantasy elements. This, especially if combined with dungeon-centered play, seems to be what produces the "D&D genre."

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;891330OTOH, if you play D&D with most or all of the elements in even just the core books in play, you're going to wind up with something that is a distinctive hodgepodge of fantasy elements. This, especially if combined with dungeon-centered play, seems to be what produces the "D&D genre."

Yeah, I'm not arguing against the 'genre' thing... or at least 'sub-genre'.

Quote from: Simlasa;891352... or at least 'sub-genre'.

This maybe, because otherwise it would be like genres of Fantasy and then D&D or something.

Yes, I would say D&D is a sub-genre. It is, imho, possible to play in the D&D sub-genre with rules that are not D&D. RuneQuest 2e or 3e will allow it pretty well for example, and FFG Star Wars sometimes comes close, at least teh way my players approached it.

Quote from: Simlasa;891352Yeah, I'm not arguing against the 'genre' thing... or at least 'sub-genre'.

OK, I can get behind that, 'Sub-Genre' it is for me!

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