Quote from: Simlasa;888449I'm don't care for the system at all but I do think the ToC stuff makes for interesting CoC supplements/adventures. Good alternative takes on the Mythos.
Some of their other setting are cool to borrow from as well.

Totally! You just have to cut out all the assenine posing. Which at least far as I have seen so far. It not super intrusive. More just a continuous mild irk.

Quote from: CRKrueger;888532Pretty much every single thing they put out for Trail of Cthulhu is a near must buy for anyone running any type of Cthulhu game.

Its a little like d20 Gamma world. There are some real gems in there. But the system is literally broken, rules deliberately incomplete. And the designers lazy, and I (more or less) quote Baugh here "Oh the players will make those rules up.", hacks.

Or Amazing Engine or Alternity or d20 where the system was not possibly the best. But alternate the setting stuff was really interesting.

As other posters said - indeed, the supplements are really of a high quality. I heartily recommend Dying of St Margarete as one of the best "Two Shots" I've ever seen for Cthulhu. And the Big Hoodoo, while not the best adventure, is definitely worth playing at least once, for the sheer fun of Heinlein and Dick investigating a terrible occult fuckup.

The one adventure in ToC I'd steer clear off is, sadly, Repairer of Reputations, as I had really high expectations for it (Hastur and King in Yellow are one of my favourite Mythos opponents) It's bland and just tries to follow the story too hard, without building an actual adventure on it. The only good thing about it is that it provided a really wicked illustration of Mr Wilde I've been using from then onwards.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;888384Nay.

I started reading Trail of Cthulhu and stopped when I saw the writer/editor can't or won't use English pronouns correctly.

Quote from: Tod13;888436Same here.

The other annoying one, I forget where I read it, is scrupulously switching back and forth between he and she every time. If pronouns bother you, use "character" or "player" instead of "he".

Quote from: Omega;888454That was part of what someone else was referring to as the 'pretentious twattery'. Glancing back through Trail a little more closely and I can see that now. Does it in Esoterrorists too.

I guess the game is playable only by women? :cool:

Congratulations, you are just as retarded as SJWs, just on a polar spin.

Quote from: Rincewind1;888628Congratulations, you are just as retarded as SJWs, just on a polar spin.

SJW? Really? Off the meds are you? Try again please.

Quote from: Omega;888652SJW? Really? Off the meds are you? Try again please.

Yes, really. If your reason for flushing a book down is "ZOMG THEY USE SHE INSTEAD OF HE THE PRETENTIOUS PROGRESSIVES", you are just as retarded as SJWs. This isn't even a metaphor or comparison - this is literally the same level of retardation, because they are the kind of people that'll do the similar complaining in a reverse situation. Frigging D20 Star Wars used that and I didn't even bat an eye when I was 10, let alone now. They can use Porpantingulangous as default pronoun for all I care, as long as the RPG's good.

You could use some meds on the other hand - some vaseline that'll let you slide that Crusader's Broomstick out of your ass.

To be fair, I think it would be entirely reasonable to dismiss out of hand a game that uses Porpantingulangous as the default pronoun, unless there's a really good reason for it.

Quote from: Rincewind1;888654Yes, really. If your reason for flushing a book down is "ZOMG THEY USE SHE INSTEAD OF HE THE PRETENTIOUS PROGRESSIVES", you are just as retarded as SJWs. This isn't even a metaphor or comparison - this is literally the same level of retardation, because they are the kind of people that'll do the similar complaining in a reverse situation. Frigging D20 Star Wars used that and I didn't even bat an eye when I was 10, let alone now. They can use Porpantingulangous as default pronoun for all I care, as long as the RPG's good.

You could use some meds on the other hand - some vaseline that'll let you slide that Crusader's Broomstick out of your ass.

My feeling on the whole pronouns in RPGs is people should use whatever pronoun feels natural to their style or they are most comfortable with. I used to use the pronoun "he" in all cases. However I started switching it up and alternating between He and She because it 'he' feels less generic and neutral to me now (so by switching I just feel like I am speaking to both men and women when I write). But if someone sticks to 'he' it doesn't bother me. If someone uses 'she' all the time, it doesn't bother me. It is a weird area in our language because there has been a lot of change in what people expect around it in the last few decades (and there isn't a final consensus on the matter). You always have the option of 'they' to get around it, and while I've let that slip into books here or there (particularly when there are other writers involved) I personally don't like making the shift from singular to plural in my own writing even though I know it is widely accepted. So these days I tend to shift. When I work with other writers, I tell them to use whichever pronoun they are most comfortable with (the only exception here is I instruct people never to switch mid-example or mid-section, since that could be potentially confusing).

But I don't see it as a political position. It is just a pronoun and my aim is to communicate with an audience. People can put down a book for whatever reason they want, but I do kind of agree with Rincewind that dropping a potentially fun game because of the author's decisions around pronouns seems like a poor reason (whether it is because they used He exclusively or alternated, or used She, or they). It is kind of like dropping a book for using (or not using) the oxford comma.

Quote from: Rincewind1;888654You could use some meds on the other hand - some vaseline that'll let you slide that Crusader's Broomstick out of your ass.

So yeah. Just you flipping out. Good to know.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;888655To be fair, I think it would be entirely reasonable to dismiss out of hand a game that uses Porpantingulangous as the default pronoun, unless there's a really good reason for it.

Isn't using Porpantingulangous as the default pronoun reason enough?

Quote from: Rincewind1;888654Yes, really. If your reason for flushing a book down is "ZOMG THEY USE SHE INSTEAD OF HE THE PRETENTIOUS PROGRESSIVES", you are just as retarded as SJWs. This isn't even a metaphor or comparison - this is literally the same level of retardation, because they are the kind of people that'll do the similar complaining in a reverse situation. Frigging D20 Star Wars used that and I didn't even bat an eye when I was 10, let alone now. They can use Porpantingulangous as default pronoun for all I care, as long as the RPG's good.

You could use some meds on the other hand - some vaseline that'll let you slide that Crusader's Broomstick out of your ass.

I agree. Making an issue of what pronoun is used is kinda overreacting. I remember a review for solipsist where the reviewer claimed he almost didn't review said game because of the use of pronouns:

Quote from: Bruce Baughhttp://baughblog.com/2013/01/29/solipsist-by-david-donachie/

I nearly didn't review this game, and my hesitation is entirely due to one throwaway line:

QuoteThroughout the text we refer to Solipsists, players and the GM using "he", "him", "his". etc. This is just a convention we've used in this book.

I will not here do a full-bore spiel about the concept of privilege as manifest in gaming writing. Nonetheless, that's an archetypal bit of privilege in action. Donachie can be flippant about it, because nobody with any clout is going to suggest that as someone with a male-sounding name and who's referred to by the publisher and others with male pronouns, he is presumptively not a gamer and should be regarded with suspicion. It's very unlikely that anyone will insist that if he games with miniature figures, they should all have enormous penises and wear bondage gear, or that his characters should expect to be subservient to all those of any other group of players. He will probably never get groped in a game store; if he does, it's very unlikely that the store owner will start by assuming that he did something to bring it on. The odds are excellent that he will never show up at a gaming session pitched to him as male-friendly only to have his character raped and enslaved. And on, and on, and on, and on.

Such a stupid thing to make an issue of. Heck, i didn't even mind that Shock made use of some made up pronouns like "hir", "ze", or whatever, as silly as I found that.

Congratulations guys, you are on the intellectual level of Bruce Baugh. In fact, worse, because he at least read the damn thing to the end.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;888664My feeling on the whole pronouns in RPGs is people should use whatever pronoun feels natural to their style or they are most comfortable with. I used to use the pronoun "he" in all cases. However I started switching it up and alternating between He and She because it 'he' feels less generic and neutral to me now (so by switching I just feel like I am speaking to both men and women when I write). But if someone sticks to 'he' it doesn't bother me. If someone uses 'she' all the time, it doesn't bother me. It is a weird area in our language because there has been a lot of change in what people expect around it in the last few decades (and there isn't a final consensus on the matter). You always have the option of 'they' to get around it, and while I've let that slip into books here or there (particularly when there are other writers involved) I personally don't like making the shift from singular to plural in my own writing even though I know it is widely accepted. So these days I tend to shift. When I work with other writers, I tell them to use whichever pronoun they are most comfortable with (the only exception here is I instruct people never to switch mid-example or mid-section, since that could be potentially confusing).

I use he or they, because I don't give a fuck either way.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;888664But I don't see it as a political position. It is just a pronoun and my aim is to communicate with an audience. People can put down a book for whatever reason they want, but I do kind of agree with Rincewind that dropping a potentially fun game because of the author's decisions around pronouns seems like a poor reason (whether it is because they used He exclusively or alternated, or used She, or they). It is kind of like dropping a book for using (or not using) the oxford comma.

I never said anything about politics. I said using something other than "he" as a generic pronoun bothers me. Pronoun use should mean something. Using "she" from a female point of view makes perfect sense or if the writing is supposed to be an excerpt from a matriarchy. But using "she" 'just because' is non-standard and mis-communicates, since use of "she" as a generic pronoun is not standard. Switching back and forth is even more unclear and makes my parser mess up, because switching pronouns *should* mean something, but in the generic context does not.

Using something other than "he" or switching obviously fails to communicate to some of your audience properly, because use of "she" or switching is not considered proper grammar by many (if not most).

For example, APA 6th recommendations to avoid male pronouns (because in scientific terms, you want to be clear about who you are talking about) are:

• Rephrase the sentence
• Use plural nouns or plural pronouns - this way you can use "they" or "their"
• Replace the pronoun with an article - instead of "his," use "the"
• Drop the pronoun - many sentences sound fine if you just omit the troublesome "his" from the sentence
• Replace the pronoun with a noun such as "person," "individual," "child," "researcher," etc.

The use of "she" or switching is especially egregious because a perfectly legitimate method exists to avoid the whole issue--using nouns or names instead. (In fact the APA excerpt above gives several alternatives.) This is how I usually write. Writing via the noun/name method is also generally more clear, because no issues of indeterminate pronouns arise.

ETA: TL;DR - Not reading stuff writing with non-standard pronoun usage isn't necessarily a political statement, but often a reaction identical to not wanting to read stuff written with incorrect grammar and rampant misspellings (did I spell that write? LOL). Reading non-standard usage is more effort than I want to put into a hobby. I can read crap grammar at work (scientific journals) and get paid for it.

I can certainly respect preferring to use 'he' (like I said, it used to be my preference in writing), but I really don't see how 'If the GM wants she can ask for a Perception roll' impedes understanding. I can see not liking it, but putting down a book over it seems an overeaction.

The APA is just a style guide. If I were writing for that field, I'd follow it (just like I followed the AP style guide when I wrote freelance for local papers). In the world of RPGs though there is no real standard guidebook (every publisher has its own guidelines). I've relaxed our guidelines over the years. Now it allows writers to use their preferred approach to pronouns. Lately I've proffered to alternate. It is the option I like most when writing. I also think using she is becoming more standard, whereas strictly using he less so. But I don't hold it against people if they take another approach.

Quote from: Rincewind1;888693I use he or they, because I don't give a fuck either way.

And that is cool with me.

Quote from: Tod13;888694I never said anything about politics. I said using something other than "he" as a generic pronoun bothers me. Pronoun use should mean something. Using "she" from a female point of view makes perfect sense or if the writing is supposed to be an excerpt from a matriarchy. But using "she" 'just because' is non-standard and mis-communicates, since use of "she" as a generic pronoun is not standard. Switching back and forth is even more unclear and makes my parser mess up, because switching pronouns *should* mean something, but in the generic context does not.

I see no more reason for "she" to be an excerpt from matriarchy, than the default "he" being an excerpt from patriarchy - it's grammatical tradition, not a mark of oppression. Perhaps originally coded so, yes, but nowadays, if you care too much about pronouns on either side, as far as I am concerned, youi need to remove a stick from your arse. Especially if you think that pronouns are some sort of heavy artillery in Kulturkampf, and RPGs need to be their main field.

QuoteUsing something other than "he" or switching obviously fails to communicate to some of your audience properly, because use of "she" or switching is not considered proper grammar by many (if not most).


For example, APA 6th recommendations to avoid male pronouns (because in scientific terms, you want to be clear about who you are talking about) are:

• Rephrase the sentence
• Use plural nouns or plural pronouns - this way you can use "they" or "their"
• Replace the pronoun with an article - instead of "his," use "the"
• Drop the pronoun - many sentences sound fine if you just omit the troublesome "his" from the sentence
• Replace the pronoun with a noun such as "person," "individual," "child," "researcher," etc.

The use of "she" or switching is especially egregious because a perfectly legitimate method exists to avoid the whole issue--using nouns or names instead. (In fact the APA excerpt above gives several alternatives.) This is how I usually write. Writing via the noun/name method is also generally more clear, because no issues of indeterminate pronouns arise.

ETA: TL;DR - Not reading stuff writing with non-standard pronoun usage isn't necessarily a political statement, but often a reaction identical to not wanting to read stuff written with incorrect grammar and rampant misspellings (did I spell that write? LOL). Reading non-standard usage is more effort than I want to put into a hobby. I can read crap grammar at work (scientific journals) and get paid for it.

If having "she" instead of "he" is "rampant misspelling", then, well, I am surprised you can tolerate any RPG at all, since they are plagued with editing errors far more serious than "she" instead of "he."

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;888711And that is cool with me.

I know, and that's why I respect you.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;888692k, i didn't even mind that Shock made use of some made up pronouns like "hir", "ze", or whatever, as silly as I found that.

That I'd actually consider pretentious - as I said, making RPGs some field of cultural war that it's entirely unsuited for. If the game was good however, I'd not care.