Gritty high magic settings?

Skarg · February 12, 2016, 12:43:29 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878609I was actually thinking of "gritty" in the sense of dangerous, high lethality. Not grimdark, though all of the mentioned settings so far are good.

But I can't think of a setting that LOOKS like your colorful high fantasy action romp with magic everywhere but gameplay wise is actually very dangerous.

Usually you only have one or the other.

Can't you get that with any magic system by nerfing, removing, restricting, limiting etc. the healing (especially restoration/revival/ressurrection) magic (and maybe the defense or buff magic)?

I guess some game systems also make all violence easy to survive, by giving piles or hit points, attacks that do girly-man damage, troll-like regeneration for every PC, easy mundane revival, or even certain games which say the PCs only have setbacks at worst, and will eventually prevail.

Christopher Brady · February 12, 2016, 05:45:17 PM

Quote from: Rincewind1;878419Eberron slightly fits this. It's definitely high magic, and on he other hand, it is much grittier than standard fare D&D as Raise Dead is practically unheard of.

It's meant to be pulpier than out and out gritty. Which in my PERSONAL opinion, D&D can't do in general.

I will echo the Old World from Warhammer Fantasy is pretty High Magic.

Telarus · February 12, 2016, 07:41:39 PM

Quote from: S'mon;878384Any gritty post-magical-apocalypse settings? I can imagine The Terminator as War Against the Golems.

EARTHDAWN!

QuoteThe trolls raid the dwarfs,
the dwarfs dislike the elves,
the elves have no patience with the humans,
and the humans war with each other.
- But everyone hates the [strikeout]Atlanteans[/strikeout] THERANS.

I will link a story from the early FASA days of Earthdawn ("Ship of Horrors") that really sets the tone of the world (note the term 'Warlock' was changed to 'Adept' before the game released, like the Atlanteans/Therans shift). A quick aside about the Horrors:
http://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.in/2012/09/earthdawn-part-7-horrors.html

QuoteThe most insidious and dangerous things in Earthdawn are the Horrors. Completely alien and unknowable, they come from deep astral space to feed on fear and pain. Infinite shapes and sizes, and powers that even dragons fear. While the magic levels have dropped considerably, Horrors are still present, ravenous and deadly.

Horrors are intrinsic to the setting, representing the greatest threat to Namegivers (besides themselves) and adepts will expend considerable resources, including their lives, to free the world from their presence.
...
The standard of the power and fear Horror's wield is through their Mark. It is a stain upon your Pattern and each is unique, the fingerprint of the Horror. They can be detected through careful scrutiny with astral sight. Through this Mark a Horror can influence you, tempt you, hurt you, exert its terrible will on the world through you. Their powers can be used against you or through you against those around you freely and it is nearly impossible to escape their voice as they taunt you endlessly. Some can apply a twisted version of Thread magic directly against your Pattern to plunder your essence and memories, or take control. While you are Marked, no one is safe.

SHIP OF HORRORS
http://www.scribd.com/doc/258650366/Earthdawn-Sizzle-Release-Brochure#page=26

Then, for another take on the world, the earlier story in the brochure about merchants and spies:
THE MERCHANT'S GIFT
http://www.scribd.com/doc/258650366/Earthdawn-Sizzle-Release-Brochure#page=20

Omega · February 13, 2016, 08:15:09 PM

Another one of these threads? Ok. Here we go again.

BX D&D Karameikos: Lots of magic and pretty darn lethal! 0HP=DEAD!

AD&D Greyhawk: Fairly high magic and AD&Ds rules were still fairly unforgiving on the dead and near-dead.

2e D&Ds Spelljammer setting was about as high magic as it gets and was pretty darn lethal in the right hands or if the PCs get careless or overconfident.

And people may rag on the Wilderness Survival Guide. But that book with the sheer number of ways to kill characters with good ol' mother nature was vastly under-rated.

Christopher Brady · February 13, 2016, 08:45:04 PM

Quote from: Omega;878806Another one of these threads? Ok. Here we go again.

BX D&D Karameikos: Lots of magic and pretty darn lethal! 0HP=DEAD!

AD&D Greyhawk: Fairly high magic and AD&Ds rules were still fairly unforgiving on the dead and near-dead.

2e D&Ds Spelljammer setting was about as high magic as it gets and was pretty darn lethal in the right hands or if the PCs get careless or overconfident.

And people may rag on the Wilderness Survival Guide. But that book with the sheer number of ways to kill characters with good ol' mother nature was vastly under-rated.

'Gritty' doesn't mean lethal. And D&D is very video gamey in the sense that unless you hit that 0HP you're completely fine. Not to mention that HP escalate at a pretty hefty rate.

nDervish · February 14, 2016, 08:10:50 AM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;878815'Gritty' doesn't mean lethal.

"Gritty" is a poorly-defined term which can mean "lethal", depending on who's using it. In my experience, "lethal" usually seems to be considered a necessary, but not sufficient, component of "gritty".

In this particular case, however, the OP has clarified that he meant it as "dangerous, high lethality." So it does mean "lethal" in the context of this question.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;878815And D&D is very video gamey in the sense that unless you hit that 0HP you're completely fine. Not to mention that HP escalate at a pretty hefty rate.

Completely agreed. D&D is generally not a good fit for "gritty" (or "lethal") except at low levels.

Omega · February 14, 2016, 06:24:48 PM

Except that HP has nothing to do with how "gritty" a setting is. Nor does death spirals, insta-kills, or any of the other methods.

BX is gritty because civilization is on the edge still and life is just one step from ending at every corner.

AD&D with just the books is much the same. Civilization is few and far between and there are ruins freaking everywhere of abandoned or destroyed cities. Civilization sometimes feels like its one orc away from ending. And at the low levels about everyone is still one step away from being killed and eaten by a badger.

S'mon · February 15, 2016, 03:10:31 AM

Quote from: Omega;878957Except that HP has nothing to do with how "gritty" a setting is. Nor does death spirals, insta-kills, or any of the other methods.

BX is gritty because civilization is on the edge still and life is just one step from ending at every corner.

AD&D with just the books is much the same. Civilization is few and far between and there are ruins freaking everywhere of abandoned or destroyed cities. Civilization sometimes feels like its one orc away from ending. And at the low levels about everyone is still one step away from being killed and eaten by a badger.

Well, that sounds like my Wilderlands of High Fantasy campaign, but running it in 5e there's not a lot of random PC death, I'm not sure I'd call it gritty. Same with the 5e Primeval Thule game I'm playing in, where civilisation is dying before the oncoming ice - getting sanity-blasted just from the sight of Cthuloid monsters is somewhat gritty, but our PCs are more Kull/Conan than Lovecraftian.

yosemitemike · February 15, 2016, 04:14:59 AM

That depends on what you think makes a game gritty. It's a term that is used in a lot of different ways. What makes a game gritty to you?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;878615High Magic =/= High Fantasy. ;]

and, often, High Fantasy=/=High Fantasy. When people use the term High Fantasy now they often mean something different from the term as it was originally defined.

JesterRaiin · February 15, 2016, 05:25:53 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike;879047and, often, High Fantasy=/=High Fantasy. When people use the term High Fantasy now they often mean something different from the term as it was originally defined.

What an amazing set of undefined variables found in a same sentence! Incredible!

yosemitemike · February 15, 2016, 05:45:02 AM

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879056What an amazing set of undefined variables found in a same sentence! Incredible!

What is High Fantasy? Is A Song of Fire and Ice/Game of Thrones a high fantasy setting?

Many people online would say it isn't but by the original definition of the term it is.

JesterRaiin · February 15, 2016, 06:02:35 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike;879058What is High Fantasy? Is A Song of Fire and Ice/Game of Thrones a high fantasy setting?

Many people online would say it isn't but by the original definition of the term it is.

It's not a jab at your position. I'm simply amazed by the way you expressed it. Truly a sight to behold, and no sarcasm here.

I guess that's the way demons and djinni talk when they want to struck a bargain with foolish mortals. ;]

tenbones · February 15, 2016, 03:06:39 PM

Talislanta and Atlantis: The Second Age.

Both gritty and scary in terms of their high-magic. Talislanta is a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting where the previous age saw magic literally rip reality to shreds (with a book that outlines and essentially gives you access to that aforementioned magic) - and it's pretty gritty in terms of violence, and setting conceits.

Atlantis is just a wonderful setting where you can go high/low fantasy to your heart's content. The magic is powerful (if you want it to be).

Talislanta is also currently FREEEEEEeeeeeeee

Batman · February 15, 2016, 04:09:43 PM

Gritty, to me, is just the mechanics used to show health, recovery, and instant death. In 4e this would be a large reduction to healing surges, when you can initiate a healing surge, and add things like losing limbs, and the length of time it takes to make an Extended Rest. The setting can still be whatever

S'mon · February 15, 2016, 07:06:34 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike;879047That depends on what you think makes a game gritty. It's a term that is used in a lot of different ways. What makes a game gritty to you?

'Midnight' felt grim & gritty to me - mostly grim, with the sense of hopelessness, frequently getting our butts kicked by the Shadow forces (basically it's a setting where the good races are in the position you normally see the orcs & goblins in) but there was also stuff like us 'heroes' punishing helpless civilians for collaboration with the Shadow. And PC death was easy, cheap & permanent.