Worth a watch!

It seems GJ has had a relatively decent discussion with DT (at least there is a channel open). So it seems that hostile marketing is the big issue and not edgy content per se. Also, if something is taken down for review it will be placed back at the start of the queue with the new material as opposed to be disappearing in the diaspora of other material. Grim goes into more detail anyhoo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_mzOTa3pk0

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 05, 2023, 02:08:49 PM
Worth a watch!

It seems GJ has had a relatively decent discussion with DT (at least there is a channel open). So it seems that hostile marketing is the big issue and not edgy content per se. Also, if something is taken down for review it will be placed back at the start of the queue with the new material as opposed to be disappearing in the diaspora of other material. Grim goes into more detail anyhoo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_mzOTa3pk0

Saw the video earlier and I'm glad GrimJim bit the bullet and got the answers he was looking for vs. dooming and glooming about the sky is falling. 

The hostile marketing is what killed The Red Room more than whatever products they were putting out. DTRPG tried talking it out but the emails show that TRR was having none of it and instead of being a sound business person like James Raggi they lost their largest source of revenue because of...spite?

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 08, 2023, 11:31:57 AM
they lost their largest source of revenue because of...spite?

It does now appear that way now... And if GJ is confident about it (I know he can't let out the whole conversation as part of the agreement) then that's a pretty good sign.

At least there's a channel open now as well.

I liked the way that particular situation played out. And I was one of the ones who had already decided to not give OBS any money after the Venger situation. But once all the information was shared, a lot of us changed our stance. No company should have to put up with that.

Pundit made a good point and helped me realized I was probably hurting content creators who I like more than OBS by refusing to use it.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 08, 2023, 12:16:22 PM

Pundit made a good point and helped me realized I was probably hurting content creators who I like more than OBS by refusing to use it.

I'd like to see BGE have a place there as well. But now knowing that DT are willing to engage as have said it's about hostile marketing I'm okay with that. Although, I'll be watching closely in case of any change or inconsistency.

It's a situation that probably could have been avoided if both parties talked a bit more. I hope they will look into potential 'bogus' reports a bit more after this. I can't really blame them for taking stuff down after a complaint as that's SOP for a business. And if they are going to then put it back to the correct place in the queue that's okay.

What is hostile marketing?

Quote from: migo on March 09, 2023, 07:44:04 AM
What is hostile marketing?

Err... That's a good question. And it seems deliberately vague.

I'm sure someone here will be able to explain it far better than I could. But it's basically, don't say negative or shitty things about drivethru while you are selling your material on their platform.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 09, 2023, 07:47:18 AM

Quote from: migo on March 09, 2023, 07:44:04 AM
What is hostile marketing?

Err... That's a good question. And it seems deliberately vague.

I'm sure someone here will be able to explain it far better than I could. But it's basically, don't say negative or shitty things about drivethru while you are selling your material on their platform.

"BUY MY PRODUCT BEFORE IT'S GONE FOR EVER!"
or
"SEE WHAT WILL BE BANNED IN DAYS! HURRY BEFORE IT VANISHES!"

using the negative marketing of the fact that a company is enforcing it's rules as a way to say "I'm skirting the rules, get what i'm selling quickly as it's FORBIDDEN!"

the inverse of saying "Here's my new product! Come see it!" you ae are promoting the fact the item is against some rule and will be removed.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 09, 2023, 08:44:13 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 09, 2023, 07:47:18 AM

Quote from: migo on March 09, 2023, 07:44:04 AM
What is hostile marketing?

Err... That's a good question. And it seems deliberately vague.

I'm sure someone here will be able to explain it far better than I could. But it's basically, don't say negative or shitty things about drivethru while you are selling your material on their platform.

"BUY MY PRODUCT BEFORE IT'S GONE FOR EVER!"
or
"SEE WHAT WILL BE BANNED IN DAYS! HURRY BEFORE IT VANISHES!"

using the negative marketing of the fact that a company is enforcing it's rules as a way to say "I'm skirting the rules, get what i'm selling quickly as it's FORBIDDEN!"

the inverse of saying "Here's my new product! Come see it!" you ae are promoting the fact the item is against some rule and will be removed.

So being completely honest is the problem?

Because there are people who will flag every product from certain companies when it is uploaded, regardless of the content, and regardless of whether it actually breaks any rules.

If it would only be taken down because of content that actually breaks DTRPG's rules, that would be one thing. But that's not what happens, it gets taken down because one person complains about it, and then gets "manually reviewed" to see if it goes back up.

Hostile marketing can be a lot of things. It could be anything from 'where's the beef' to coke/pepsi taste-test ads in the 80's. 'Strong enough for him, but ph balanced for her', is an example of mild hostile marketing.

More recently, and on the not so mild side, Daily Wire has had a lot of success with razors and chocolate bars.

OBS is saying you cannot use their platform to market in a negative way while also using the platform. That is perfectly reasonable.

Now the ban first mentality that disproportionately impacts people like Venger, LotFP, and others...that is another issue.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 09, 2023, 12:14:47 PM
Hostile marketing can be a lot of things. It could be anything from 'where's the beef' to coke/pepsi taste-test ads in the 80's. 'Strong enough for him, but ph balanced for her', is an example of mild hostile marketing.

More recently, and on the not so mild side, Daily Wire has had a lot of success with razors and chocolate bars.

OBS is saying you cannot use their platform to market in a negative way while also using the platform. That is perfectly reasonable.

Now the ban first mentality that disproportionately impacts people like Venger, LotFP, and others...that is another issue.

Bolding mine.

Is there an objective definition ANYWHERE on OBS' TOS of "Hostile Marketing"? Or is it left to OBS' sole discretion to define what constitutes HM?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 01:36:50 PM
Or is it left to OBS' sole discretion to define what constitutes HM?

That's the rub... I think it's up to their sole discretion (presumably). Personally, I didn't find what Miguel or Silvia said initially hostile marketing. Because they were trying to drum up a bit of interest but after the takedown then the shit really hit the fan. That said I do think DV was making a bit of an example of them. However, it probably could have been avoided if both parties had a bit of a chat behind the scenes.

I'm hoping that GJ has now opened up a bit of a line of communication with them.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 09, 2023, 02:01:01 PM

I'm hoping that GJ has now opened up a bit of a line of communication with them.

James Desborough is an old school progressive. He still speaks their language completely fluently. Basically he's an edgy John H. Kim.

I don't know anything about Miguel Ribeiro, but if his background is different, I don't imagine opening a line of communication will make a difference.

Quote from: migo on March 09, 2023, 02:29:55 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 09, 2023, 02:01:01 PM

I'm hoping that GJ has now opened up a bit of a line of communication with them.

James Desborough is an old school progressive. He still speaks their language completely fluently. Basically he's an edgy John H. Kim.

I don't know anything about Miguel Ribeiro, but if his background is different, I don't imagine opening a line of communication will make a difference.

GJ and I are both old lefties.

BUT... we are for freedom of speech and the freedom to create whatever you want. Therefore, highly anti-censorship which gives us some common ground here. Personally, I don't care about anyone's politics (that's decided by the ballot) it's all about the game and being able to play what you want without having 'woke-scold' culture rammed down your throat.

Quote from: migo on March 09, 2023, 11:10:10 AM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 09, 2023, 08:44:13 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 09, 2023, 07:47:18 AM

Quote from: migo on March 09, 2023, 07:44:04 AM
What is hostile marketing?

Err... That's a good question. And it seems deliberately vague.

I'm sure someone here will be able to explain it far better than I could. But it's basically, don't say negative or shitty things about drivethru while you are selling your material on their platform.

"BUY MY PRODUCT BEFORE IT'S GONE FOR EVER!"
or
"SEE WHAT WILL BE BANNED IN DAYS! HURRY BEFORE IT VANISHES!"

using the negative marketing of the fact that a company is enforcing it's rules as a way to say "I'm skirting the rules, get what i'm selling quickly as it's FORBIDDEN!"

the inverse of saying "Here's my new product! Come see it!" you ae are promoting the fact the item is against some rule and will be removed.

So being completely honest is the problem?

Because there are people who will flag every product from certain companies when it is uploaded, regardless of the content, and regardless of whether it actually breaks any rules.

If it would only be taken down because of content that actually breaks DTRPG's rules, that would be one thing. But that's not what happens, it gets taken down because one person complains about it, and then gets "manually reviewed" to see if it goes back up.

I guess the main questions there are;
- How often do they go back up?
- Can they be pulled down for manual review more than once?

The reason I ask is because magazine and book publishers commonly review material before they publish it. Distributors generally know what they're distributing. I'm actually more surprised DTRPG doesn't do a content review before they put products up in the first place.

But, if they do put them back up after a review in most cases (and put it at the head of the line) and only pull a given product for review once then it's not really any more onerous than conventional publishing and gives you a double hit of landing on the new release page.

Is it fun? No. Is it more onerous than traditional publishing reviews? It doesn't appear to be significantly so.