On another forum, Krysst and I were discussing what makes a system Grim And Gritty. It got me to thinking about what Grim and Gritty really means when applied to an RPG. In my opinion, for a campaign, setting, or game to be considered GNG, it requires the following:

1. Shades of Grey
Morality is not clear cut good and evil, black and white, or chaos and law depending on your cup of grog. The villains are not irredeemably evil—they have positive aspects. The heroes may not be anywhere close to good, but even if they consider themselves good, it's not the absolute, do no wrong good or even philosophically inclined good of an alignment system. If I have a character who is an adherent to a church that is considered good, a character who is devoted to his family, gives to the poor, and helps the poor farmers fight off the bandits, society likely sees him as good. When his church directs him to raze the village of the heretics, to the last man, woman and child, he might have some cultural qualms about the deaths of children, maybe even women, but he'll likely be willing to spit those heretic men on pikes, whether they offer resistance or have committed an actual crime or not. This same character might assassinate a leading figure in the church in order to help increase the prestige of his own faction. That doesn't mean he's evil, because in a GNG campaign, that term just doesn't really apply.

2. Just ain't pretty
This isn't a golden age. The world doesn't live together in harmony. If there is a powerful empire, it's on the wane, with the corrupt bureaucrats running the show. If there ever was a magical age when people's lives were easy, that's long since past. There's crime, disease, and poverty, and they are all common. Too common. There is wealth, but it's held by a very small portion of the population. That same small portion of the population has the power, and they aren't very concerned about the "common good." If a compassionate humanitarian ever got to power and began to actually help the poor and downtrodden, the rest of the power elite would eliminate him or her very quickly—at least they would try. And the mob—the vast majority of the common people, that organic eruption of groupthink among the urban poor—is fickle at best, ready to believe any lie and forgive any fault, as long as the bread and circuses keep coming.

That's really what I expect out of GNG. That's all. Deadliness can be a part of it, but it isn't essential. Death will certainly be common in the setting, its common in any world with rampant crime, disease and poverty. Life is cheap, but that doesn't mean the PCs are doomed. They can be the heroes, defying the odds, kissed by fate. There's got to be the threat of death—and that's required in pretty much any RPG in order to maintain tension—but that doesn't mean PC's have to drop like flies. I believe the GNG atmosphere can be maintained without high PC fatality. Like any good game of any conception, it requires a good GM, but I believe as long as the GM can maintain the 2 above criteria, I would consider the game GNG.

Thoughts?

I think you've pegged it quite well. I would expect few possibilities for a "hero career" in a grim and gritty game - even if you succeed with the things you set out to do, you won't get the princess. You might save the world, but don't expect the world to thank you for it.

In game terms, a much tighter advancement scheme than in most games.

I think that systemically there are a few aspects I want for a GNG feel:

1. No "mook" rules. I'm fine if the PC's are *bad*--but don't want fights with "named NPCs" vs mooks in a GNG game.

2. Bleeding rules. When I get around to my Dark Fantasy game there's going to be specialized rules for different diseases and post-wound infections (which is a part of the fantasy world--diseases are thematically tied to the forces at work there). But at very least bleeding and other gory-wound rules.

It doesn't have to be Warhammer or Rolemaster style flying limbs but I'd prefer something less than generic "hit-point damage."

3. One of the things I like in GNG games that makes PC's tougher than average is rules that help prevent PCs from being hit directly rather than "just tougher." Whether that's really good dodge scores or some kind of damage reduction that represents PCs being hard to shoot in the face, I prefer that avenue to either giving PCs armor or just making them way, way tougher than normal.

(This assumes you don't want a high PC death rate--I agree that PC-turn-over isn't required for the feel but, yes, death has to be a real threat even if the PCs are very well equiped to handle danger)

-Marco

My answer to this question is simpler, but not very *useful*: Robert E. Howard.  

I have to say, if I was invited to *this* sort of GNG game, I'd be much more inclined to join in it that one with high PC turnover.

I also have to say that I have introduced such concepts into even D&D, whose base setting is about as far from this as you can get.  The PCs are often working with (or for) LE characters who would be the villians in other games.

And in one particularly memorable 2e D&D session, the characters (with multiple mages) had just finished fireballing a set of goblin warrens.  I described how the fireballs had spread out, roasting every single goblin warrior -- and every goblin woman and child.  I mentioned their twisted, roasted bodies, but what I went into detail over was the smell.  My players didn't even bother looking for treasure after that.  They were undecided whether to lynch me or congratulate me for how well I described the smell.  

My easy to find benchmark for grim and gritty rules is how deadly are daggers?

How deadly are little concealable bits of metal that damn near every person the PC's meet are going to carry?

If daggers are to be feared, its grim and gritty.

Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel or my poisons of choice for this kind of game.

Quote from: PakaMy easy to find benchmark for grim and gritty rules is how deadly are daggers?

Or the .22 caliber hand-gun. Yes.

-Marco

Quote from: MarcoI think that systemically there are a few aspects I want for a GNG feel:

I think between you and the original poster, the two types games I've seen commonly referenced as GNG are covered.

One speaks to the type of combat mechanics you have. The other speaks more to the moral tone of the game.

The important thing is that the two versions can be mixed and matched, and thus IMO anyone talking about GNG needs to be a little more specific.

The Midnight setting seems to me very grim and gritty. There are gut-wrenching decisions being taken every day, like choosing between trying to help a village aginst a large orc patrol or running away to deliver a critical message to the Resistance. Getting into a fight -any fight- can be deadly and has serious consequences ("Oh, you killed that nasty orc? too bad, now the Legate will kill one out of ten villagers as reprisal...").

Midnight is definitely helluv gritty.

No doubt.

Quote from: FraserRonald1. Shades of Grey

2. Just ain't pretty

OTOH, one game which meets both of this criteria is Paranoia.  Which, in most (but not all) cases, is not something I would describe as Grim and Gritty in play.

These might be necessary conditions, but I don't think they're sufficient.



Cheers,
Roger

Twighlight: 2000 is perhaps the purest RPG expression of Grim 'n' Gritty, in my opinion. It was the first RPG that I'm aware of that actually addressed the real-world implications of an atomic war. Some have argued that the missile exchange was unrealistic in that it was very, very limited and didn't really use 50 megaton city-busters. But at least T:2000 showed that the implications of being exposed to radiation were that you would die, painfully, and not suddenly grow bat wings or develop a self-generated power bolt.

With regards to setting, Grim - The way how the world effects the players. Normally in a detrimental manner. Survival either moral or physical is the focus here. The players are not really trying to change the world (or they are but their success at it is not really noticable) The world is trying to change the players.

Gritty - The players in whatever challenges(with regards to the above) are thrown at them are not going down without a fight.

System esp combat - Player mantra- "Hey guys talking should always be the first option"

Regards,
David R

CoC.

Something else that works in there somewhere is the relative power level of the best at something compared to the reasonably competent.  In other words, how heroic is it?

Examples:  If the best swordsman in the world were to face three professional swordsmen and there was room to maneuver, what would be the likely result?

Your group of 4 adventurers is surprised by a group of 20 archers or riflemen 30 feet away.  If the group were to either try to run for it or rush them, what is the likely result?

Base D20 isn't grim mainly because it's so heroic.  A 15th level fighter wouldn't have any trouble with 3 3rd level fighters.

grim   Audio pronunciation of "grim" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (grm)
adj. grim·mer, grim·mest

   1. Unrelenting; rigid.
   2. Uninviting or unnerving in aspect; forbidding: "undoubtedly the grimmest part of him was his iron claw" (J.M. Barrie).
   3. Ghastly; sinister: "He made a grim jest at the horrifying nature of his wound" (Reginald Pound). See Synonyms at ghastly.
   4. Dismal; gloomy: a grim, rainy day.
   5. Ferocious; savage: the grim advance of the pillaging army.

I suggest in RPGs, definitions 4 and 5 are apropos.

grit·ty   Audio pronunciation of "gritty" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (grt)
adj. grit·ti·er, grit·ti·est

   1. Containing, covered with, or resembling grit.
   2. Showing resolution and fortitude; plucky: a gritty decision.

Definitely definition 2 for RPGs.

So Grim & Gritty is a combination of two properties, grimness and grittiness. These properties are separate - i.e. a game can be grim but not gritty and gritty but not grim. Is it possible that people are conflating the two, calling everything which is either one or the other both?

Personally gritty appeals immensely to me, but grim does not, particularly.

-mice