Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2024, 03:13:03 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2024, 06:28:42 AMYes, I suspect that this is the approach that WOTC is likely to take.

5-10 years ago I'd think so. But wotc has become increasingly insane and if even a tenth of the things they have talked about for fake 5e see print. Greyhawk will be the absolute least of our worries.

Greetings!

Yeah, Omega. My hopes are not high for Greyhawk concerning WOTC. WOTC will corrupt it entirely if they put any real effort into including the setting. Furthermore, I don't like the whole Woke Seattle ideology in games, because they actually destroy the game environment. Every town, every city, becomes this terrible copy of modern, Woke Seattle. The NPC's all remind me of the zombie-like Pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. (With Donald Sutherland).

Plus, there are other, non-WOTC resources that present Greyhawk stuff that doesn't try to insult all the Greyhawk fans, and while periodically developing something new, seeks to always remain solidly faithful to the traditional Greyhawk world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 22, 2024, 07:00:28 PMNot really sure how things in this thread came to an off-topic rejoicing in the alleged hellfire soon to be experienced by other congregations and Christian sects. What I will say about that from my own personal perspective, is that if one accepts Christ as their savior and sincerely tries to follow His way and example, minor doctrinal errors seem unlikely to be as important as what is sacrificed in an attempt to aid others and affirm fellowship and obeisance to the Trinity.

Thanks, KindaMeh. I appreciate the sentiment here, and agree. I hope there's at least some fellowship for Unitarians who don't believe in the Trinity, but still try to follow in Christ's way. I'd go so far as to feel fellowship with Jewish people, atheists, and others who still believe in good works and loving thy neighbor as thyself.

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Quote from: Jaeger on May 22, 2024, 04:19:00 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 09:44:12 PMI consider myself a Christian, but I'll go on record that I had sex with my wife long before we were married. That is clearly described as sin, but I don't lose any sleep over it.

You show that you already get it.

Because as much as you may try to equivocate, you know the truth in your heart; and you are not presenting your past sins as a something that should be seen as a universal good and normalized.

Sorry if this wasn't clear. It's not that I consider my premarital sex to be a past sin that has been forgiven. It's that I don't regret it and would do it again. As a fifty-something divorcee, I felt no guilt whatsoever in having sex with my girlfriend, even before we were engaged.

I believe many of the specific statements in the Bible - including the New Testament - are for people in that society, not a universal commandment. In 1st Century, society was very different than today. There was no reliable contraception, marriages were arranged early in life, and childbearing was often lethal.

In terms of stance - I am not opposed to premarital sex, or women pastors, or IVF (among other issues). And yes, I'm also not opposed to homosexual behavior and have no problem with homosexual characters appearing in RPG modules. A gay friend of my wife's sang the processional at my wedding last month, and attended with his partner.

I'm fine to discuss religious reasons behind these individually, but obviously each of them could be a whole topic.

Quote from: jhkim on May 22, 2024, 09:32:03 PMThanks, KindaMeh. I appreciate the sentiment here

What part of 'take that shit somewhere else' did you not grasp? Some of us would like to discuss Greyhawk without you fucking the convo up for the rest of us.

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2024, 09:08:36 PMYeah, Omega. My hopes are not high for Greyhawk concerning WOTC. WOTC will corrupt it entirely if they put any real effort into including the setting.

They already started fucking it up in 3E. What's sort of ironic is they didn't EXACTLY do that when they started with the last 2E Greyhawk products back in the late 90s (The Adventure Begins, Return of the 8, Slavers, etc). The setting was always supposed to be post-apocalyptic, where humanity in the Flanaess is holding on by its fingertips, to just another garbage High Fantasy setting that morons think is indistinguishable from Faerun.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 22, 2024, 07:00:28 PMNot really sure how things in this thread came to an off-topic rejoicing in the alleged hellfire soon to be experienced by other congregations and Christian sects.

Its usually the same 3 or 4 detailing about any anti-woke thread any way any how. And about any other thread if they can hallucinate hard enough.

Back on topic.

If wotc does anything bigger with Greyhawk I suspect they will try to move it away from its mostly humanocentric mid to low fantasy theme and try to turn it into Forgotten Realms 2.0.

Quote from: Omega on May 23, 2024, 01:55:16 AMIf wotc does anything bigger with Greyhawk I suspect they will try to move it away from its mostly humanocentric mid to low fantasy theme and try to turn it into Forgotten Realms 2.0.

Which version of Greyhawk was "mid to low fantasy" in your eyes? Because I remember a big ass demon invasion, a demonic demigod ruling a (shithole) nation, the Great Kingdom having all sorts of undead 'animus' nobles, a gunslinger quasi-diety, Castle Greyhawk (totally nuts!), a huge hidden cult of xenophobic racists that like the color red and plot to take over everything, a massive giant problem in the west, and lost more high fantasy stuff.

Sure, it has been humanocentric, but a new version doesn't necessarily need to be beholden to that. If they move the timeline forward, a lot can change. It's even possible that humans are no longer the majority race.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 02:19:26 AMSure, it has been humanocentric, but a new version doesn't necessarily need to be beholden to that. If they move the timeline forward, a lot can change. It's even possible that humans are no longer the majority race.

Well then it's not Greyhawk, numbnuts.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 23, 2024, 01:23:39 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 22, 2024, 09:32:03 PMThanks, KindaMeh. I appreciate the sentiment here

What part of 'take that shit somewhere else' did you not grasp? Some of us would like to discuss Greyhawk without you fucking the convo up for the rest of us.

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2024, 09:08:36 PMYeah, Omega. My hopes are not high for Greyhawk concerning WOTC. WOTC will corrupt it entirely if they put any real effort into including the setting.

They already started fucking it up in 3E. What's sort of ironic is they didn't EXACTLY do that when they started with the last 2E Greyhawk products back in the late 90s (The Adventure Begins, Return of the 8, Slavers, etc). The setting was always supposed to be post-apocalyptic, where humanity in the Flanaess is holding on by its fingertips, to just another garbage High Fantasy setting that morons think is indistinguishable from Faerun.

Greetings!

Yes, Insane Nerd Ramblings, I agree. I enjoyed 3E, though even then, WOTC had no real love for Greyhawk. I can imagine creating a supplement that translates old mechanics to using 3E for Greyhawk is fine though. After all, even 5E D&D can be run in Greyhawk. I don't believe that it is precisely the *Mechanics* per se within Greyhawk that make Greyhawk, Greyhawk. It is much more so the tone, and the foundational ideas determined by the miliue itself. The Campaign Milieu. Before a single dice is rolled to create a Character, there are identifiable and noteworthy attributes that shape the tone of a Greyhawk Campaign.

I think that people especially that do not like such a tone in Greyhawk, definitely should not be ever involved in working on anything to do with Greyhawk. But, I also think having to even say that concerning WOTC is in many ways entirely premature, and misplaced.

There is no one at WOTC that loves and respects Greyhawk.

Honestly, the people that truly love and respect Greyhawk, well, are all long gone from anywhere near WOTC. Rob Kuntz, Jim Ward, Tim Kask, and more. As far as new material, or inspiration for playing in Greyhawk, I think that Joseph Bloch, The Greyhawk Grognard, is probably the best resource from a current standpoint. Alan Groh no doubt has genuine love for Greyhawk as well.

New material for Greyhawk could be created and produced. There is always room for that. Some people give the impression that there isn't. I think that there certainly is scope for new material, but it must be done with the proper regard for the foundations of Greyhawk and the Greyhawk Tone.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Even just taking it from a purely commercial point of view, It'd be in WOTC's best interest to differentiate Greyhawk from Forgotten Realms, because unless you're pretty intimate with both settings, they don't look all that different. I mean, this may be hearsay, but didn't TSR seek out Ed Greenwood to make FR an official setting precisely because they were on the outs with Gygax and wanted to replace Greyhawk? You can't really blame a newer player for looking at Greyhawk and just seeing a less famous Forgotten Realms with less material published for it.

If you're a DM who got started with the game any time after about 1995, you're probably a Faerun guy (assuming you're still playing official D&D at all). That guy's going to look at Greyhawk and ask "what can I do with this, that I couldn't just do with the setting I already know?". Selling it as a grittier, lower-fantasy, more political setting, whether or not that's what it originally was, would give Greyhawk that all-important "unique selling point". Without something like that, Greyhawk doesn't really serve a purpose for WOTC other than nostalgia-bait, which is probably why they never pay it more than lip-service in their books.

EDIT: All of that is of course assuming that WOTC actually has any interest in publishing settings anymore, which is not certain. For all their pushing of Forgotten Realms in 5e, they never published an actual Faerun worldbook. If memory serves, the Ravenloft book sort of was an actual campaign book, but not really. The way they did Spelljammer kind of hearkened back to the old TSR boxed sets, but that was also a disaster for them, so I wouldn't be surprised if they never do it again. It's probably safe to say we're never getting anything like the multiple Faerun sourcebooks we got in 3rd edition or the BECMI Gaz line from official D&D ever again.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 23, 2024, 06:34:39 AMSelling it as a grittier, lower-fantasy, more political setting, whether or not that's what it originally was, would give Greyhawk that all-important "unique selling point". Without something like that, Greyhawk doesn't really serve a purpose for WOTC other than nostalgia-bait, which is probably why they never pay it more than lip-service in their books.

I mean, WotC's 4E 'Points of Light' setting was Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. It's why I get irked when people say Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are basically the same setting. They're as different as night and day in many regards.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 23, 2024, 06:47:04 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 23, 2024, 06:34:39 AMSelling it as a grittier, lower-fantasy, more political setting, whether or not that's what it originally was, would give Greyhawk that all-important "unique selling point". Without something like that, Greyhawk doesn't really serve a purpose for WOTC other than nostalgia-bait, which is probably why they never pay it more than lip-service in their books.

I mean, WotC's 4E 'Points of Light' setting was Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. It's why I get irked when people say Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are basically the same setting. They're as different as night and day in many regards.

Huh. I completely missed 4th edition, but I'd always heard that points of light was based on Mystara.

Quote from: RNGm on May 15, 2024, 08:25:03 PMThe important thing is that Mordekainen can finally be zim/zir true authentic self as a disabled rainbow birthing elf of color and there is nothing you bigots can do about it!

Is this sarcasm? Please tell me this is sarcasm...

TO paraphrase that sage of knowledge and wit Borat:

"Giving Greyhawk campaign material to Wizards to rework is like giving a gun to a monkey...and we stopped doing that since the Great Zoo Massacre of '91."

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 23, 2024, 06:34:39 AMEDIT: All of that is of course assuming that WOTC actually has any interest in publishing settings anymore, which is not certain. For all their pushing of Forgotten Realms in 5e, they never published an actual Faerun worldbook. If memory serves, the Ravenloft book sort of was an actual campaign book, but not really. The way they did Spelljammer kind of hearkened back to the old TSR boxed sets, but that was also a disaster for them, so I wouldn't be surprised if they never do it again. It's probably safe to say we're never getting anything like the multiple Faerun sourcebooks we got in 3rd edition or the BECMI Gaz line from official D&D ever again.

They published Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide fairly early on. As setting books go, Tal'Dorei was better. To clarify, I had not yet heard of Critical Role when I bought the Tal'Dorei book as an impulse buy, so I'm not a fan.

They published Ravnica, Eberron, Theros, and Wildemount. They also had mini pdf setting books for several of their Magic: the Gathering worlds. I always thought they should have given Dominaria the full setting treatment. It was already fully fleshed out twenty years ago, and is perfectly functional the way original Greyhawk was as a place to stick adventure modules.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 23, 2024, 03:10:44 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2024, 02:19:26 AMSure, it has been humanocentric, but a new version doesn't necessarily need to be beholden to that. If they move the timeline forward, a lot can change. It's even possible that humans are no longer the majority race.

Well then it's not Greyhawk, numbnuts.

It's not what Greyhawk was, but it can still be Greyhawk. Stagnation and regurgitation of what was without adding/changing anything is pointless.

RIP Greyhawk