Quote from: GameDaddy;418523*snip*
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

can't pass up this jem...
my irony meter just broke....:teehee:

Quote from: DominikSchwager;418527You need to get yer head out of your arse and read the thread BEFORE you respond to it.

Why?

GameDaddy was correct in what he said in his response.

Again, Luke Crane is not a Dave Arneson, Marc Miller, Ken St. Andre or Greg Costikyan - he just is not at that level yet.

- Ed C.

4 pages and no one's mentioned David Wesley? Or Jacob Moreno?

Quote from: Koltar;418474Luke crane?

Puh...leeze!

Too young , too recent.

Monte Cook?
Give him 10 to 15 years. A little seasoning might do him  good. (humility too maybe)


- Ed C.

some might consider this a bash

Quote from: GameDaddy;418523I don't see anyone here randomly bashing authors. *snip*
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

see above...and you would do well to heed your creed man!

Quote from: DominikSchwager;418527You need to get yer head out of your arse and read the thread BEFORE you respond to it.

exactly

Quote from: Koltar;418548Why?

GameDaddy was correct in what he said in his response.

Again, Luke Crane is not a Dave Arneson, Marc Miller, Ken St. Andre or Greg Costikyan - he just is not at that level yet.

- Ed C.

don't be thick man...

Quote from: Koltar;418548Why?

GameDaddy was correct in what he said in his response.

Again, Luke Crane is not a Dave Arneson, Marc Miller, Ken St. Andre or Greg Costikyan - he just is not at that level yet.

- Ed C.

At what level?  Arneson and Gygax decided to hack an existing game; props to them.  They did it first and folks have been doing it ever since producing games in various levels of popular success.  I've met awesome gamers who produce fantastic stuff for homebrews that equal or better anything any "notable" designer has ever produced.  

I've also played with a whole lot of folks too with enormous enthusiasm whose games were ramshackle disasters at best.  There are a few paid, prolific, designers I lump in with with this category too.  Burning Wheel isn't my bag, but denigrating Luke Crane because he lacks some ill defined (and non-existent) rpg X-Factor is inane.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;418551At what level?  Arneson and Gygax decided to hack an existing game; props to them.  They did it first

Second, actually.

Quote from: Koltar;418548Why?

GameDaddy was correct in what he said in his response.

Again, Luke Crane is not a Dave Arneson, Marc Miller, Ken St. Andre or Greg Costikyan - he just is not at that level yet.

- Ed C.

You need to actually read the thread, too. I never claimed anything, I just offered the perspective of those who were born after electricity became a big thing. No need to be a condescending prick, Koltar.

And as far as the name dropping you constantly do. Most of these people had they heyday decades ago. Literally decades.
Arneson, Miller and whoever else you drop there are footnotes these days at best. Most (not all, before you or anyone else decides to go with the semantics) of them did one good thing and then ceased to contribute or contributed only very little after the span of a couple of years in which they were active. Take your comment about Monte Cook needing a bit of seasoning, like 15 years. Your boy Costikyan didn't contribute for fifteen years, at least not to RPGs. More like 10, then he wandered off to do computer games and now he releases free stuff.
The pedestal you put these people on is a very shallow one, so stop being ridiculous.

Quote from: GameDaddy;418104...Ummm no. That would be common sense in action...

Some games that are flawed simply shouldn't be played because well...

1) They are not well made.
2) They are not entertaining.
3) THey promote morally ambiguous goals and values.
4) They only glorify heinous activity.
5) They are not fun (i.e. misery tourism).
6) They are not really a game, instead, they are a veiled form of a competition with real stakes. (Gambling instead of playing)
7) They are boring, having insufficient challenges or puzzles.
The game is rascist or discriminatory against one race, group, or type of player.
9) The game can be specifically used to exclude or denigrate individual players at the whim of the other players or GM.

You don't have to host or play a game to accurately determine whether that game would fit into one or more of the above categories, and thus be unsuitable for play.

P.S. there is a plentitude of films and books that I would never care to expend time with or share with others for the very same reasons...

so we have this jem...
now lets look at the last bit of the quote below shall we...

Quote from: GameDaddy;418459*snip*
Even after I announced the book I was quoting from, some of the respondents over there berated the book, without knowing who all had contributed to it, and anything about who all had endorsed it.

:hmm:
so on the hand it's ok to formulate opinions/preferences without actualy delving into the source but to up-hold your rediculous morallity schpeel you berate others for doing that very thing...wow...

I formed my opinion of said book from your use of it to defend a specious argument. I trust the book supports your view correct?

So why do I have to read it to deride it's use in this regard? (Note in my post I used that exacact term "in this regard". The book may have many valid/cool points to make but morallity/ethics being an underlying design principal in a game is not one of them IMO. There isSETTING and MECHANICS!)

is this a valid point?
:idunno:

actually, amusingly enough, there is a copy of the book sitting in front of me now. The book is a children's (target audience seems to be 12-13 year olds) guide to getting into videogame design. It discusses such interesting and incisive game design questions like "why is checkers more exciting than tic tac toe?".

Add to that the endorsement from a person who is a self-expressed big fan of Forge games, which GD claimed he was arguing against, the whole thing is rather ridiculous.

To be fair, GD was right in that he did provide quite a bit of entertainment, at least on the same level as watching, say, a Pauly Shore stand-up routine (where you are transfixed by the awful overwhelming stupidity of it all).

i remember greg c. for price of freedom--saw the ads in white dwarf back in the late 80s and /facepalmed.

balances out his WEG star wars stuff, lol

(from the rpg encyclopedia)

The Price of Freedom
    1st ed by Greg Costikyan (1986) West End Games
    A survivalist game of freedom fighters in Soviet-occupied America. The system uses d20 rolled against stats and skills (rated 1-20), with semi-complex combat using a hexmap and counters. Character creation is based on occupation, which determines your skills. Character background includes filling out Soviet identity papers. The first adventure has the Soviets landing in your city and how you react to it.

Quote from: TristramEvans;418577actually, amusingly enough, there is a copy of the book sitting in front of me now. The book is a children's (target audience seems to be 12-13 year olds) guide to getting into videogame design. It discusses such interesting and incisive game design questions like "why is checkers more exciting than tic tac toe?".

Spoken as a true novice in game design and game theory.

QuoteTo be fair, GD was right in that he did provide quite a bit of entertainment, at least on the same level as watching, say, a Pauly Shore stand-up routine (where you are transfixed by the awful overwhelming stupidity of it all).

I would assume you are also the kind of emo-hipster that thinks Elvis Costello had more influence on modern music than Elvis Presley.

Quote from: GameDaddy;418523Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Quote from: GameDaddyMmm'kay... so you (and your peers) don't understand Morality. It's only subjective, if you don't understand it.For you (and your peers), it's like some sliding scale where people can only be damaged a little if you vary just a bit from a moral standard, and they can be damaged alot if you vary alot from a moral standard. However, each person gets to define his or her own morale standards, right? So some people just won't be morally corrupted, because they have simply adopted a different standard that is not used by everyone else.

Quote from: GameDaddyNot necessarily true? Which part?

Is it the part where if you just vary a bit, you're only corrupted a little?

Is it the part where if you vary you're morals to a greater degree, you're more corrupted?

Or is it the part where you get to define your own morale standard and there is no right and wrong?

Quote from: GameDaddyBecause it isn't defined as a specific job for game designers you are automatically absolved from pre-determining what the moral content of your games should be?

If so then part of your job as a game designer is in developing and promoting ethically questionable materials that may be released to the general public, and that public happens to include people who not only have not had any prior exposure to the values (good or bad)you present. Not only do they have no context or content in which to practice making good decisions with, some of the folks that are exposed to your game may not have physically developed to the point where they can properly apply or comprehend the rules and mechanics your game is using.

Quote from: GameDaddyYou'll be able to count on the fact I'm applying my gaming preferences to the gaming community at large.

Quote from: StormBringer;418580Spoken as a true novice in game design and game theory.

No, just someone with access to much better sources. Not that I claim to be a professional in game design, but I'd at least say that there's obviously a world of difference between the aforementioned book and, say, Beyond Role and Play or the Kobold Game Design volumes. Hell, even Dicing with Dragons, if we're going to go all old school.

QuoteI would assume you are also the kind of emo-hipster that thinks Elvis Costello had more influence on modern music than Elvis Presley.

I'm neither "emo" (those were called goths when I was in school) nor a "hipster" (a term which no one has ever been able to define to me), and I could care less for either of those fellow's music.

Quote from: beeber;418579i remember greg c. for price of freedom--saw the ads in white dwarf back in the late 80s and /facepalmed.

Actually, there was a lot of good stuff in that game and it's a lot more sophisticated that simply Red Dawn the RPG.  The character generation asked the player to consider quite a bit about their character's background, especially for that period of time and suggested, among other things, that players could play an anti-Soviet Trotskyite or socialist.

Quote from: StormBringer;418533Hey, dipshits, that quoted bit in the middle is where you put an unusual nickname, like 'Sparky', 'Assmaster', or 'Killfuck Soulshitter'.

Killfuck Soulshitter is definitely going to be the name of the BBEG of my next campaign.