QuoteSubjectively, I don't like the sound of that. Due to the granularity of D100 vs D20 it makes ties much less likely than in Pendragon and I'm not sure that is a good thing. In addition, having 01 no longer be the best roll is a bit odd and unintuitive.

It quite often is the best roll. It depends on the type of skill roll and contest. RQ6 uses several. It's only in directly opposed rolls between skills where 01 can be trumped by a higher, critical result.

Quote from: Loz;858801It quite often is the best roll. It depends on the type of skill roll and contest. RQ6 uses several. It's only in directly opposed rolls between skills where 01 can be trumped by a higher, critical result.

Yes that was clear. I'm referring to the case where it does matter.

It turns the die roll into more of a black box as far as results are concerned compared to the usual method.

By that I mean, in the usual method the player immediately knows that 01 ≥ 02≥ 05≥ 15≥ 35≥ 85≥ 97≥ 00 (where A≥ B means that a roll of A is equal to or better than a roll of B). Therefore the player immediately knows the category of the result as well as how well they rolled within the category. Then the player waits to find out if the category and roll was good enough to beat his opponent's roll. As an extreme example, if a player rolls 01 or 00 they immediately know that the character has done as well or as poorly as it is possible for them to do.

In the new method, you only know the category of result, but you don't know anything about how well you rolled within the category. Because that is dependent not just on your roll, but also on your opponent's roll. So to find out, you have to wait and see what the opponent rolls.

Now from a statistical standpoint, those are just different methods of interpreting random rolls and from that perspective, they are more or less equivalent. But from the player perspective, how well your swing was (or whatever) should depend on our ability. Not on how well or poorly your opponent rolls. Obviously the outcome, depends on the two rolls, but how well you, yourself performed does not. So we have (in certain situations) made the ability of the PC dependent on the ability (or lack thereof) of the NPC.  This is a subtle difference.

To illustrate the difference, let me use an example from Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. When Han, Leia, and Chewie walk into the banquet room and see Darth Vader, Han immediately draws and fires his blaster. He's a proficient gun fighter. He knows that his draw was the best that he could do. He expects to hit Darth Vader. And he is really surprised when he does not. This is like the situation where Han's player Harry rolls 01. Harry knows he his character has done the best quick draw and shot possible (to him). He knows that should be good enough and that if it isn't well then nothing is. And he misses. SUPRISE!

Contrast that with RQ6. Harry rolls 01. Well, Harry thinks, that's good as long as Jimmy doesn't roll a critical for Darth. If he does, then I'm screwed since he will probably roll something other than a 01 which will be my roll. Subjectively the outcomes feel different. To me.

Also note that I had the same feeling in Pendragon.

QuoteTo illustrate the difference, let me use an example from Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. When Han, Leia, and Chewie walk into the banquet room and see Darth Vader, Han immediately draws and fires his blaster. He's a proficient gun fighter. He knows that his draw was the best that he could do. He expects to hit Darth Vader. And he is really surprised when he does not. This is like the situation where Han's player Harry rolls 01. Harry knows he his character has done the best quick draw and shot possible (to him). He knows that should be good enough and that if it isn't well then nothing is. And he misses. SUPRISE!

RQ6 combat doesn't work using opposed rolls in this way. In this (excellent) example, Han would roll against his Corellian Pirate style for his blaster and score a 01 - a critical success. Darth Vader rolls for his Force Power parry, allowing him to block energy weapon attacks. If Vader scores a Critical Success (and let's say he does), there is no appreciable difference between the grades of the rolls; Han would roll damage and Vader's Imperial cyber armour would absorb it. However, if Vader scored a standard success, a failure or fumbles, Han would gain 1, 2 or 3 Special Effects in addition to any damage. These are things such as Choose Location, Maximize Damage, Circumvent Parry, and so on. Special Effects are awarded based on the difference in skill levels, but don't use the Opposed Roll blackjack method to decide the outcome.

This is what RQ6 terms a Differential skill roll, and its the differences in the level of success that carry the weight.

You are, of course, correct in your summary of the relationship between active parties in an Opposed Contest, and this is one of the cases where 01 isn't necessarily beneficial (and we agree that it can take a little getting used to). What happens after Han fires at Vader is a good example of an Opposed Roll in  action. Vader uses the Force to wrench the blaster from Han's hand and cause it to fly across the banquet table. Here, Vader pits his Force skill against Han's Brawn or Willpower in an Opposed Roll. Let's assume Vader has Force 100% and so critically succeeds on 10% or less. He rolls 01. Han's Brawn is 60% and the only way he can beat Vader is to roll between 02 and 06 (because he needs to roll within his critical range and score higher than Vader does).

In play, the different skill contests and Opposed Roll mechanics work very well. Some do find it takes a little while to get used to the logic, but, generally, it doesn't take long. Rolling beneath your skill is always good; rolling low is usually good, but sometimes you need to roll high within a specific range. Depends on the activity.

Quote from: Loz;858843In play, the different skill contests and Opposed Roll mechanics work very well. Some do find it takes a little while to get used to the logic, but, generally, it doesn't take long. Rolling beneath your skill is always good; rolling low is usually good, but sometimes you need to roll high within a specific range. Depends on the activity.

Understand it I do. Like it, I do not.

Yeah, like Loz says, Combat is a Differential Roll, so success within the category does not matter, success on attack and parry means the attacker could do damage, the defender parries and then depending on weapons, damage may or may not be assigned.  Daggers can't really parry a two-handed flail for example.

Opposed Roll is the blackjack method and used for skills.

Yeah it seems wonky at first, but in a combat last week where a PC Zingaran duelist was facing off against three sailors, and had to Outmanoeuvre quite a bit to keep from getting ganged up on, the player absorbed the mechanic easily.

Result of that combat: One sailor down with a cut thigh, one knocked out with a  hilt bash to the head, one ran away with a useless arm.

I do love me some RuneQuest 6.  I can only hope that it doesn't become a lesser game when merged back into the Chaosium House where CoC and BRP lived.

You guys do realize that (a) I already understood how blackjack method works and (b) understanding and liking are uncorrelated?

Quote from: Bren;858855You guys do realize that (a) I already understood how blackjack method works and (b) understanding and liking are uncorrelated?

Fair enough.  I had a similar reaction initially, before I actually played the game.

In practice it works really well.

Quote from: soltakss;858615Similarly The Design Mechanism have not produced many supplements for RuneQuest.

:confused:

RQ6 only came out a few years ago, and in that short time DM has produced the Book of Quests, Monster Island, Mythic Britain, Luther Arkwright, etc.

I have to say Loz and Pete's productivity frightens me. :eek:

I may bemoan TDM's appearant glacial pace, but the products have been pretty much outstanding. So thanks for that!

Quote from: baragei;858955I may bemoan TDM's appearant glacial pace, but the products have been pretty much outstanding. So thanks for that!

I thought we just established that they squirt out big shiny books faster than is natural.

By the by, now that The Kraken is almost over, has anyone heard any news about Chaosium's future plans? Preferably in more detail than the previous press releases which have so far managed to sidestep the questions asked.

Quote from: Vile;858962I thought we just established that they squirt out big shiny books faster than is natural.

By the by, now that The Kraken is almost over, has anyone heard any news about Chaosium's future plans? Preferably in more detail than the previous press releases which have so far managed to sidestep the questions asked.

Color me curious as well. With so many of the new Chaosium guys at the Kraken, I figured there'd be some kind of news.

Quote from: Akrasia;858944Fair enough.  I had a similar reaction initially, before I actually played the game.

I played RQ2, RQ3m and call of Cthulhu for decades so I have a good sense of how often tied quality results will occur (i.e. crit vs crit, special vs special, normal vs normal, miss vs miss, and fumble vs fumble) and I've played Pendragon which used a similar black jack roll under system for eliminating (most) tied quality results, so I have a fair idea of how much roll under black jack is likely to annoy me when applied to a D100 as well as how often using such a system will actually matter. I'm not trying to persuade anyone else to be annoyed, merely trying to explain why it annoys me and how it results in a marginally less intuitive play experience.

Quote from: Bren;859019I'm not trying to persuade anyone else to be annoyed, merely trying to explain why it annoys me and how it results in a marginally less intuitive play experience.

...despite never actually playing it...and despite rq6 essentials being available as a free download. Would you review a book or film without having read or seen it, and instead pontificating about why you dislike it based on a description of the plot?

Quote from: Bilharzia;859022...despite never actually playing it...and despite rq6 essentials being available as a free download. Would you review a book or film without having read or seen it, and instead pontificating about why you dislike it based on a description of the plot?

A. Its not a book or a film it is a set of game rules.

B. The rules for black jack roll under were clearly stated multiple times in this thread. I understood them the first time. (Because they work the same way as the same rules work in Pendragon.) And the second. And the third. How will reading it one more time change my understanding of the black jack roll under rule?
 
C. How much play time would I need to clock with this version of Runequest before you would believe that I know what I don't like?

D. Do you like RQ6? Are you sure? Maybe you just haven't played it enough to realize you don't like it.