Quote from: Tristram Evans;939689I believe the story was "some people said the game was racist, so I decided to get it"

If you don't believe said people (and I'm inclined to be doubtful, myself), that's actually the logical thing to do.

Quotedoesn't it literally mean that?

Literally, maybe, but I find that something like $10 (which would probably go to someone who has purchased it before and not the author) are a negligible amount of "support". This fits nicely with the "verifying whether the people that call it racist are right, or overreacting yet again".

Quote from: Tristram Evans;939898Elves are fantasies and they don't directly correlate to any real world race.

Actually, the elves in most fantasy do correlate to real-world races. Not always to the same races, mind you, but they do correlate. I have no trouble naming equivalents for the elves in Dragonlance*, Dragon Age**, and a local game (though that one has never been translated into English).

*Frigging pop-culture Japanese, if you're wondering. Because all Japanese were ninja in the pop-culture of the time
**Split between "travellers" (the wild ones) and "Jews" (the ones in the cities).

QuoteHaving a fantastical made up race that is inherently evil is fine, presenting a real world race as evil within the context of a fantasy is pushing the boundaries of taste and any suspicions that it might be an innocent "mistake" go out the window with any knowledge of the author and his views. VV is a racist who specifically created a fantasy context that justifies that racism.

Maybe. But I rather enjoy reading such books and then finding in their text proof that contradicts what the author probably intended.
(As an example, my reading of the Chronicles of Gor is that they're a convoluted proof that women can very well be at least equal to men in combat and spy activities...though most aren't, because it's harder for them to pass the initial stages. Funny enough, that fits with the best research on those questions that I have discovered over the years).

QuoteThere's two huge differences there....those are both dead people who lived a century ago at a time when society had different views. Lovecraft was a racist. But the racism in his stories is incidental, generally besides the point of the narratives, and buying his books nowadays doesn't support racism, and an intelligent discerning reader is quite capable of looking at those elements in his stories, dismissing them for the ignorance they represent, and still enjoying the other aspects of the story. And secondly, Lovecraft and Howard created works of art, and art has a value outside of temporal politics and issues. MYFAROG is not a work of art, and I have yet to even see any indication that its even a good game.

And that's the most damning accusation against MyFrog, of everything you've written;).

Quote from: Bluddworth;939877A mind without curiosity is a stone by another name.

When one person claims something should be banned based on one of the most frivolous charges in our modern era, the charge of racism, it makes me curious to see and judge for myself.  To do otherwise is closed minded and really quite ignorant.  

Upon reviewing the game and even playing it with a dedicated community of players, I have found no such racism in the game or certainly not in the players of it.  

I once described the differences of race in MYFAROG like the differences between an elf and a human in any fantasy RPG.  They elf is almost always better with long bows, and has night vision, so would we declare that it is racist against humans who do not have those advantages?  

The other attack on MYFAROG is that it is incredibly mysoginistic, based primarily on the fact that female characters get a -2 to their initial strength roll, and a +1 to charisma.  Oh noooos....  Hey geniuses, women have up to 40% less upper body strength based on numerous scientific studies and medical journals.  This of course allows for the exception to the rule, but to the SJW snowflakes, well let's not let facts get in the way of their path to their safe space.  

The same people have tried to tarnish or even ban discussing writers like Robert E Howard and HP Lovecraft.

I think, if your goal is to change minds or win allies, this is probably not beneficial. If you would like to convince us that MYFAROG is not what we might fear it to be, then concrete examples of how it isn't would be helpful. This is more along the lines of excuses on why it's okay that it is what we fear it is. I'm pretty sure we all know what level of differences between male and female characters we find acceptable and whether we think racial differences within real world races is equivalent to racial differences between humans and elves. This is more along the lines of poisoning the well of your theoretical opposition--they're the ones who are ignorant, they are SJWs, they are snowflakes, they want their safe space, they want to ban discussing REH and HPL. Throwing in racism okay because elves and science of upper body strength there, and this just looks like we're playing buzzword bingo.

I really want to have a mature, reasoned conversation on what this game is, whether the author's toxic belief system bleeds into it, whether any that does impacts the game, and what positive qualities the game might have (potentially despite this bleed-in). This is not evidence towards the possibility of that happening.

Quote from: rgrove0172;939942If ypu replace "real" with "modern" I'm with you. It's rediculous to hold past cultures to our current ethical views.

I agree with this and I have used the term "Chronocentrism" to describe it.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;939968I think, if your goal is to change minds or win allies, this is probably not beneficial. If you would like to convince us that MYFAROG is not what we might fear it to be, then concrete examples of how it isn't would be helpful. This is more along the lines of excuses on why it's okay that it is what we fear it is. I'm pretty sure we all know what level of differences between male and female characters we find acceptable and whether we think racial differences within real world races is equivalent to racial differences between humans and elves. This is more along the lines of poisoning the well of your theoretical opposition--they're the ones who are ignorant, they are SJWs, they are snowflakes, they want their safe space, they want to ban discussing REH and HPL. Throwing in racism okay because elves and science of upper body strength there, and this just looks like we're playing buzzword bingo.

I really want to have a mature, reasoned conversation on what this game is, whether the author's toxic belief system bleeds into it, whether any that does impacts the game, and what positive qualities the game might have (potentially despite this bleed-in). This is not evidence towards the possibility of that happening.

I have on several occasions explained the "strong" points of the game's systems, mechanics and even its themes.  I have yet to see, or have used any other race used as the adversary in the my playing experience, as there are plenty of reasons to act against the seemingly 90+% of the population that is Thulean (Nordic tribes).  I view it like RPGing an episode of the History Channel's Vikings, with a bit of REH and Lovecraft thrown in for the underlying conspiracy.

I don't know what else to say other than, I don't expect to "win over" those who have not read the books or analyzed the game specifically as a game.  There will always be those who will take the word of others as gospel, I'm not one of those.  

I'm wondering if REH's Conan RPG will get the same backlash, since its "fictitious" nationalities have real word counterparts.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939973I have on several occasions explained the "strong" points of the game's systems, mechanics and even its themes.

In fact, your explanations of mechanics have been rather sparse in my book. I can't even tell from them if it's using 2d6, d20 or d100, or some dicepool, for example. Am I missing something?

QuoteI have yet to see, or have used any other race used as the adversary in the my playing experience, as there are plenty of reasons to act against the seemingly 90+% of the population that is Thulean (Nordic tribes).  I view it like RPGing an episode of the History Channel's Vikings, with a bit of REH and Lovecraft thrown in for the underlying conspiracy.

I'd expect that. After all, who cares about the orcs?

QuoteI don't know what else to say other than, I don't expect to "win over" those who have not read the books or analyzed the game specifically as a game.  There will always be those who will take the word of others as gospel, I'm not one of those.  

And that's good for you. But you could be more forthcoming with info on the game, given that you're maybe the only one to have read it (and almost definitely the only one to have played it).

QuoteI'm wondering if REH's Conan RPG will get the same backlash, since its "fictitious" nationalities have real word counterparts.

I suspect VV is nowhere close to REH in artistic merit, when it comes to prose:). Also, contemporaries always get a harsher treatment.

And it also helps that if there's a backlash, the collective "fuck off" of the REH fans would be strong enough to blow the objectors away:D!
Then again, if you were to attack REH's Conan RPG, you could start with the mechanics. Some people have already. (I readily admit that 2d20 wouldn't be my first choice, either, but I can at least live with it, and see the demands for a particular system as born out of a sense of entitlement. Seems some people don't see it that way, though;)).

Quote from: rgrove0172;939942If ypu replace "real" with "modern" I'm with you.

It is a bit nit-picky, but yes, I agree with you.  "Modern" is a better word choice, and substituting it with "real" was a bit subconsciously chronocentric of me.  If you will forgive me, then I won't bother to mention the words "ypu" or "rediculous" in your reply.(sorry, couldn't resist the temptation to nit-pick back

QuoteIt's rediculous to hold past cultures to our current ethical views.

It is even more "rediculous" to hold fictional cultures to our current ethical views - whatever those may be.

Still, there is a point where I can see that fictional cultures could be abrasive or offensive to some.  Howard's stories are full of misogyny and racism, a product of his time.  Some people can separate themselves from these perspectives and enjoy the stories, characters and themes, some can't.

Quote from: AsenRG;939988Some people have already. (I readily admit that 2d20 wouldn't be my first choice, either, but I can at least live with it, and see the demands for a particular system as born out of a sense of entitlement. Seems some people don't see it that way, though;)).

Pretty sure "Oh fuck, not ANOTHER classic IP fucked over with a narrative Jay Little system." isn't a "Demand for a specific system."  But enjoy that altered reality.

Quote from: Bluddworth;939877one of the most frivolous charges in our modern era, the charge of racism,

Tells me all I need to know.

In the words of Master Yoda, "My wrinkled green pee hole, you may tongue."

Racist asshole.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939997Tells me all I need to know.

In the words of Master Yoda, "My wrinkled green pee hole, you may tongue."

Racist asshole.

And yet Gary and D&D get charged with that today.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939997Tells me all I need to know.

In the words of Master Yoda, "My wrinkled green pee hole, you may tongue."

Racist asshole.

If I were racist I would not want any contact with Yoda, and if his pee whole is wrinkled may I suggest viagra?  

I think race is generally not on most people's minds in their average minute to minute day.  Issues of race, especially negative ones are frequently exaggerated, and even often fabricated by the media.  It has gotten to the point that if you disagree with someone's idea, it must pass the race test first.  If you're of a different race than the other, than your disagreement is race based and not idea based.  

I would not fall within the revered ethnic or religious group of any white supremist group, being mostly of Italian ethnicity and a Roman Catholic (although not devoutly so).  

But, that aside, you prove my point in frivolously throwing the charge out there.  Cheers!

MYFAROG uses a D6 system, which are applied to a Difficulty Score and then modified by attributes, attribute modifiers or skill modifiers.

For instance, a fighter has a Defensive Value of 11.  I have a Strength of 17 so that gives me +2 to melee.  I have to roll 3d6 and add 2, and beat an 11.  If I roll exactly 11 it hits, but not very well, and I do half damage.  If I hit with a 15 or better I get an exceptional hit and add + 2 to damage.  The system is simplified by having just two rolls, one to hit and one for damage.  All defense and damage resistance is passive and functions as modifiers.

In 2D20 system that I have played, dodging and parrying are active defenses, and are rolled after the attack rolls, and before the damage rolls.  Also, hit location is factored in for individual armor pieces, something I believe MYFAROG is lacking but intend to use.  

What I like most about MYFAROG is the character generation.  There are videos up on them, but I'll repost a description of one of my characters here.  I'll also include my character for REH's Conan RPG so that you can compare.  Both systems I prefer over D&D 5E btw.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939994Pretty sure "Oh fuck, not ANOTHER classic IP fucked over with a narrative Jay Little system." isn't a "Demand for a specific system."  But enjoy that altered reality.

A joke, it was, but dwell on that, let's not, Green One;)!

(Your demand was for "one of a type of systems" instead of one from another type, but the "entitlement" part was just inspired by reading another thread, PM me if you want to guess which one).

Quote from: Bluddworth;940030I would not fall within the revered ethnic or religious group of any white supremist group, being mostly of Italian ethnicity and a Roman Catholic (although not devoutly so).  

Well, neo-fascists would love to have you join, I guess:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;939952Actually, the elves in most fantasy do correlate to real-world races. Not always to the same races, mind you, but they do correlate. I have no trouble naming equivalents for the elves in Dragonlance* ....

*Frigging pop-culture Japanese, if you're wondering. Because all Japanese were ninja in the pop-culture of the time

    Hmm...I'm rather familiar with Dragonlance, and I'm not seeing it. Now, I was a little too young for much of the ninja craze of the 80s--I was only exposed to the offshoots of it in GI Joe and TMNT--but I really don't see the parallels. Dragonlance elves always struck me as the snobbish rich or high school preppies.

Quote from: Bluddworth;940034MYFAROG uses a D6 system, which are applied to a Difficulty Score and then modified by attributes, attribute modifiers or skill modifiers.

For instance, a fighter has a Defensive Value of 11.  I have a Strength of 17 so that gives me +2 to melee.  I have to roll 3d6 and add 2, and beat an 11.  If I roll exactly 11 it hits, but not very well, and I do half damage.  If I hit with a 15 or better I get an exceptional hit and add + 2 to damage.  The system is simplified by having just two rolls, one to hit and one for damage.  All defense and damage resistance is passive and functions as modifiers.

uh... wait... Does this take into account the bell curve? Because rolling 3d6 means that you are going to get alot of rolls at the peak and very very few at the far ends.

Quote from: Madprofessor;939993It is a bit nit-picky, but yes, I agree with you.  "Modern" is a better word choice, and substituting it with "real" was a bit subconsciously chronocentric of me.  If you will forgive me, then I won't bother to mention the words "ypu" or "rediculous" in your reply.(sorry, couldn't resist the temptation to nit-pick back



It is even more "rediculous" to hold fictional cultures to our current ethical views - whatever those may be.

Still, there is a point where I can see that fictional cultures could be abrasive or offensive to some.  Howard's stories are full of misogyny and racism, a product of his time.  Some people can separate themselves from these perspectives and enjoy the stories, characters and themes, some can't.

I wasn't nit picking at your choice of words rather I thought we were of a fundamentally different perception.

Ive heard many who criticize previous generations and other cultures for their behavior when measured against our current, modern, western ethics and it always amazes me. Calling the Egyptians evil for having slaves is similar to calling us barbarians for eating chicken. Perhaps someday we will adopt an ethical standard whereby the rights of barnyard fowl survival supersedes our right to eat them but it hasn't happened yet and therefor the criticism doesn't apply. Calling Thomas Jefferson a racists for example is just as misplaced in my opinion. Behavior has to be measured against the standards of the culture and time in which it occurs. 15th century men who belittled women were not chauvinists, 18th century whites that believed blacks were inferior weren't bigots. By today's standards their beliefs and treatment of their fellow men was insufferable but at the time? Perfectly acceptable behavior, you cant condemn them for it.