Quote from: Tristram Evans;944690Even the first edition was at least as much Derleth as Lovecraft, even if HP gets the most screen time.

Never seen it, but I suspect that you might be right.

I'm disappointed that one of the few moments where the game's content beyond thinly veiled racist polemic setting could be discussed -- how the weather tables function, so we can compare them to extant versions in D&D -- was deflected into a vapid back cover pitch

Still sticks in my craw.

(PS: I'm so glad none of you are paying attention to my Maztica.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;944625I'll freely admit the work stands on it's own, and can be completely horrific without realizing the subtext of what might have been floating around in the author's subconscious.  I'm not arguing Lovecraft isn't worth reading or studying in his own right.

I just think there is a tendency to say "Yeah {something}ism, whatever, 19xx." as if 100 years ago people were some less-evolved species.  I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

All that having been said, I don't know that "Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate" is really the theme.  I think it's more nebulous than that, a general fear and dread of the Other as expressed by different races and cultures that manifests as Primitive Religions of African and South Asian Harpooners, Tcho-Tcho's in the mountainous jungles of China and Cambodia, etc.  Cross that with Sex and you get Shub-Niggurath and The Dunwich Horror, but I think the Genetic Body Horror component really gets brought out best in Shadow Over Innsmouth as none of us can really know what monsters lie locked in our bloodline.

I definitely agree that even by 1920s standards, Lovecraft was pretty bloody racist. Hells, he'd be pretty bloody racist by 1850s standards.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;944689To a certain extent I don't think Lovecraft's racism needs to be excused, because, well, what are we going to do, punish dead people?

A proper Leftist will make sure Lovecraft's works are never read but his soiled reputation is kept around to be scorned for all time.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;944768A proper Leftist will make sure Lovecraft's works are never read but his soiled reputation is kept around to be scorned for all time.

Take the politics to Pungency.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;944487What, in your mind, is an "average person?" Does an "average person" risk being pulled over by the cops because of the color of their skin? Does an "average person" risk being sworn at because of the clothes they wear?

Still wondering, Bluddy.

Quote from: Opaopajr;944738I'm disappointed that one of the few moments where the game's content beyond thinly veiled racist polemic setting could be discussed -- how the weather tables function, so we can compare them to extant versions in D&D --

RPGPundit has a thread about Man vs. Nature and a thread about Dark Albion's weather issues in his Forum. Weather issues would be a good new thread and Pundy's info would be good to cut and paste into it. He wrote an interesting discussion about rain and seasons in Dark Albion.

Quote from: Opaopajr;944738PS: I'm so glad none of you are paying attention to my Maztica.

Hush you and your inconvenient facts.

Maztica gets a pass because (1) most AD&D fans don't even know it (let alone non-AD&Ders); and (2) the TSR nostalgia glow.

In retrospect its a really, really weird TSR 2e release.

Quote from: The Butcher;944640While it is regrettable that Lovecraft's racism seeped through his writing to taint his magnificient, lasting visions of oneiric fantasy and eldricht horror (like Howard's tainted his riveting tales of pulp adventure), with both authors it is entirely possible to reject the racist passages and still enjoy a good pulp tale.

Also, both men have been dead for nearly 80 years so you're not financing racists by buying their stuff. Hell, in the civilized world it's all public domain already.

But if you excise the racist bits of Varg's game, you're left with what? A shitty OSR vanity piece? In a world that's seen ACKS, AS&SH, DCC and other clever games, any TSR D&D-inspired ruleset has a tall bar to clear. Judging from the reviews it doesn't look like Arsonists & Aryans here does the trick. Also, did I mention it's a racist piece of shit?

To be perfectly honest, I have been waiting for this moment for years. Please allow me to savour the sublime moment in which I get to tell someone on the Internet, objectively and entirely justifiably:

YOUR FAVORITE GAME SUCKS AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR LIKING IT.

Thank you.

Funny, I don't recall saying it was my favorite game.  It is just the current RPG I'm playing, and has taken a back burner to Conan Exiles at the moment.

REH's Conan RPG will most likely secure the brass ring and title of "My favorite Game".

Quote from: Tristram Evans;944497So, wait, your argument is that just because a few people sometimes bring race into the equation when they maybe should not, then nothing is ever racist?

Do you expect anyone here to take that seriously?

I never said there is no racism, just that the race card is over played.

It is exaggeration that I don't take seriously.  As to what you take seriously or not, not really my concern, your view is your own.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;944817Still wondering, Bluddy.

I don't think the average black person risks getting pulled over due to simply the color of their skin.  Holy crap, that would be millions of pull overs a day!  

"Risks" is the wrong word to use, because it just doesn't bear out in reality.  "Fears" might be a better choice, and then we could debate the merits of that fear based on personal experience versus a commonly held impression.

People who say the race card is overplayed are usually white. And statistics show that black males are disproportionately stopped by law enforcement. And fuck it--it's not a "card." It's reality, no matter how much "whitesplaining" people do. But I digress (and rant).

But on the gaming front...

...what a person plays in the privacy of your own home, indeed, what a person thinks, or how a person acts, in the privacy of their domicile ain't no thang, because it doesn't cause harm.

I think we could debate whether published works with racist views do harm over time, but we'd have to go case by case, and take into account the  context of the work, as well. I don't think MYFUCKWAD (or whatever it's called), is worth getting too worked up over. Small potatoes, in the grand scheme of things.

Quote from: cranebump;944891...what a person plays in the privacy of your own home, indeed, what a person thinks, or how a person acts, in the privacy of their domicile ain't no thang, because it doesn't cause harm.

Agreed, but on the other hand, if you just came to a first meeting of book club, you'd also not say you are an avid reader of Mein Kampf. It's not even about why you do it, it's just that simple social logic of first impression making.

It's like the guy who collected Hitler paintings from Justified.

Quote from: Rincewind1;944892if you just came to a first meeting of book club, you'd also not say you are an avid reader of Mein Kampf. It's not even about why you do it, it's just that simple social logic of first impression making.

So basically Bludworth is Catpissman? I can roll with that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;944552That does seem to describe the setting. As I haven't read it (and probably won't), I can't debate if the setting is Nazi Aryan pseudo-myth or just yet another fever dream fantasy faux-Europe. Mechanically, MYFROG looks like a faux-Euro D&D semi-clone.

It's  not 'faux-europe' so much as 'fake Nazi pseudo-history'.

QuoteI don't get the "play according to your European heritage" part at all. Is the game only supposed to be played by players descended from Northern Europeans?

Clearly, yes.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;945125So basically Bludworth is Catpissman? I can roll with that.

No, I'm just more open minded and less of a snowflake than you might be accustomed to.    I don't even support certain aspects of the author's perspective, and I am not ethnically or religiously where the author places his cultural perspective (I'm 50% Sicilian; 25% Ukrainian; 12.5% German; 12.5% Irish; and a Roman Catholic, albeit not very devout).

I judge the game simply on its merits as a game system.  I quite frankly don't see what all of the fuss is about and don't really care.  If you see blatant racism in the game, then don't play it. I hear blatant racism in a lot of Hip Hop, and I don't listen to it.