I think they are more subtle. I remember first reading them (long before the internet and knowing all this stuff about HPL). I admittedly was quite young, and stuff might have just gone over my head, but I recall getting through them and only interpreting it as having the same incidental racism that other turn of the century/early 20th century authors like Arthur Conan Doyle had.

Personally, I think Lovecraft went a step beyond incidental, even for the early 1900s, although I'll admit it doesn't show up in everything.

Quote from: Lovecraft's Poem "On the Creation of Niggers" (1912)When, long ago, the gods created Earth
In Jove's fair image Man was shaped at birth.
The beasts for lesser parts were next designed;
Yet were they too remote from humankind.
To fill the gap, and join the rest to Man,
Th'Olympian host conceiv'd a clever plan.
A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
Filled it with vice, and called the thing a Nigger.

I guess I meant the short stories. I certainly didn't read that when I was 11.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944599I'm a Lovecraft fan and I even I can't get behind this one.  He certainly wasn't promoting a racist agenda, but his racist views to a certain degree drove his art.  Lovecraft's racism turned Miscegenation into Body Horror with the Deep Ones and Dunwich as the most obvious example.  The idea that there is something primitive, alien and evil locked in the bloodlines of humans and humans can devolve into that primordial state is an important part of Lovecraft's horror and is directly informed by his feelings on race and sex.

Lovecraft's art is the direct result of him struggling with his demons.

Yeah, but on the other hand, if you never heard about Lovecraft's biography (the dead author interpretation), and obviously your copy does not have that poem (holy shit I did not know that existed), it is an extremely good horror story none the less. It does not rely on the reader accepting an assumption that Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate to work and be coherent.

Quote from: Rincewind1;944623Yeah, but on the other hand, if you never heard about Lovecraft's biography (the dead author interpretation), and obviously your copy does not have that poem (holy shit I did not know that existed), it is an extremely good horror story none the less. It does not rely on the reader accepting an assumption that Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate to work and be coherent.

I'll freely admit the work stands on it's own, and can be completely horrific without realizing the subtext of what might have been floating around in the author's subconscious.  I'm not arguing Lovecraft isn't worth reading or studying in his own right.

I just think there is a tendency to say "Yeah {something}ism, whatever, 19xx." as if 100 years ago people were some less-evolved species.  I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

All that having been said, I don't know that "Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate" is really the theme.  I think it's more nebulous than that, a general fear and dread of the Other as expressed by different races and cultures that manifests as Primitive Religions of African and South Asian Harpooners, Tcho-Tcho's in the mountainous jungles of China and Cambodia, etc.  Cross that with Sex and you get Shub-Niggurath and The Dunwich Horror, but I think the Genetic Body Horror component really gets brought out best in Shadow Over Innsmouth as none of us can really know what monsters lie locked in our bloodline.

Quote from: Rincewind1;944623Yeah, but on the other hand, if you never heard about Lovecraft's biography (the dead author interpretation), and obviously your copy does not have that poem (holy shit I did not know that existed), it is an extremely good horror story none the less. It does not rely on the reader accepting an assumption that Lesser Races Are More Likely To Degenerate to work and be coherent.

Really? Wow, I'm definitely not a HPL fan, and I've read the poem, along with a few others!

Personally, I'd say that his attitude to other races is much harder to ignore or misunderstand than REH's, but that's me.

While it is regrettable that Lovecraft's racism seeped through his writing to taint his magnificient, lasting visions of oneiric fantasy and eldricht horror (like Howard's tainted his riveting tales of pulp adventure), with both authors it is entirely possible to reject the racist passages and still enjoy a good pulp tale.

Also, both men have been dead for nearly 80 years so you're not financing racists by buying their stuff. Hell, in the civilized world it's all public domain already.

But if you excise the racist bits of Varg's game, you're left with what? A shitty OSR vanity piece? In a world that's seen ACKS, AS&SH, DCC and other clever games, any TSR D&D-inspired ruleset has a tall bar to clear. Judging from the reviews it doesn't look like Arsonists & Aryans here does the trick. Also, did I mention it's a racist piece of shit?

To be perfectly honest, I have been waiting for this moment for years. Please allow me to savour the sublime moment in which I get to tell someone on the Internet, objectively and entirely justifiably:

YOUR FAVORITE GAME SUCKS AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR LIKING IT.

Thank you.

Quote from: The Butcher;944640YOUR FAVORITE GAME SUCKS AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR LIKING IT.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944613Personally, I think Lovecraft went a step beyond incidental, even for the early 1900s, although I'll admit it doesn't show up in everything.

Wow...

I'm not going to stop my Call of Cthulhu campaign or anything but...wow.

Yeah, that little poem probably doesn't get a lot of play.

CoC is several editions past the point where the inspiration for it is no longer HPL, but former CoC editions and their "assumed" campaigns, IME.

Also, while it is possible that Myfarog does indeed suck, I'd reserve that judgement for after I've read it (probably never, given the lack of PDF). And even if it sucked, I wouldn't draw conclusions about the OP from liking it.

Quote from: AsenRG;944678CoC is several editions past the point where the inspiration for it is no longer HPL, but former CoC editions and their "assumed" campaigns, IME.

There's that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944625q1I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

I think Lovecraft's two best stories that finally get out from under the shadow of Poe and his pulp roots are the late period Shadow Out of Time and Mountains of Madness, which are less dependent on the other stories fear of sex and miscegenation.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944613Personally, I think Lovecraft went a step beyond incidental, even for the early 1900s, although I'll admit it doesn't show up in everything.

I've seen the poem, but honestly forgot about it. From what I read on the subject way back when, Lovecraft's racism waned as he got older, with the influence of his wife being a big ameliorating factor, but I'm not going to try and excuse Lovecraft's racism so much as my point was that his stuff has value beyond the unfortunate elements that creeped into his work, which can be recognized for what it is and ignored while retaining the value of his contribution to the horror genre.

Quote from: CRKrueger;944625I just think there is a tendency to say "Yeah {something}ism, whatever, 19xx." as if 100 years ago people were some less-evolved species.  I think "different cultural norms" is used to explain away something uncomfortable about an artist without considering that aspect within the context of the art itself.  It's ok to say "You know what yeah, not only was so-and-so some kind of -ist, but it's the -isms that, like any personal failing or weakness, actually might have made him more effective as an artist".

I tend to see the opposite as a more prevalent problem: judging past societies based on modern cultural norms. To a certain extent I don't think Lovecraft's racism needs to be excused, because, well, what are we going to do, punish dead people? As to Lovecraft's moral failings contributing to the creation of his art, I think that's an interesting and incisive point I'm inclined to agree with.

To bring this digression vaguely back to the thread topic however, I don't know Varg's music, so I can't say what value it has divorced from his odious philosophies, but it does not appear that it aided in him creating an rpg of any particular value.

I want to make the more general point though, that while I'm calling out the OP on his defence of the game, and have spent plenty of text berating the game itself, I'm not calling for any sort of witchhunt of the OP or inclined to make any personal judgements on them. I'll take at face value the claim they simply like the system and do not engage with the racist elements thereof.

Quote from: AsenRG;944678CoC is several editions past the point where the inspiration for it is no longer HPL, but former CoC editions and their "assumed" campaigns, IME.

Even the first edition was at least as much Derleth as Lovecraft, even if HP gets the most screen time.