Quote from: Omega;942895Back in the 90s I worked with a couple of artists who later turned out to be crooks. One is currently doing time in prison. At the time there was no indicator there was trouble. Afterwards though now years later Im kinda unsure what to do with the art... I dont want to promote these people. But I kinda you know... sunk money into this stuff and just locking it in a vault seems not right. ugh!

Well art collectors love them some John Wayne Gacy art... And several of them donate the proceeds to the victim's survivors. So, since I doubt your collection of originals can beat that nadir, feel free to enjoy such pieces as you please?

Quote from: Omega;942897It seems to me like the OP bought the game unaware of the issues behind the game.

Actually he admitted what brought it onto his radar WAS the Outrage Brigade demanding that it can never be spoken about.

Quote from: Bluddworth;936763I had never heard of MYFAROG, or its author, until about 3 months ago.  I was originally introduced to it by a "call to arms" on the Paizo.com forums for the collective to ban the game from being discussed in any way.  I being somewhat Chaotic Neutral, especially on forums, said to myself "I have to check this shit out myself."  I looked the core book up and saw it was only $10.00 or so, and I ordered it.

Now at that point he probably had no idea who Varg was, what his politics were, never heard of Burzum, and never saw any "Thulean Perspective" websites or videos.

So he did know it was controversial.  That's the problem with the calls to silence people, to ban books or discussion about them.  People will buy it just to spite you.

F.A.T.A.L. came out like, what, 12-15 years ago, the Outrage Brigade wasn't in full swing, so the game wasn't just blacklisted for including rules for sex.  Some people heard "Anal Circumference Table" and that was that, but other people actually read it and did rather detailed takedowns of the mechanics.  Even purple itself did a review, one so filled with bilous invective, smug superiority, and really bad attempts at SA-like humor that it's almost as painful to read as FATAL itself - but they did review it.  They didn't just say "This game is declared Anathema", they showed why it sucked.

So, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

Varg is a murderer and one of the biggest morons to draw breath. He claimed in an interview that people with brown eyes were inferior and somehow drew an inference to shit. He seems half-educated at best. Probably the Norwegian equivalent to a criminal hillbilly.

Now I do like one or two of his Burzum records but beware as the first one is shit and everything he made in prison was tinker toy new age garbage.  I checked them out because I was into black metal but I made sure to buy boots so I could ensure the POS didn't see a dime. I can read the poetry of Pound, D'Annunzio and the great novels of Celine or Malaparte but thankfully those anti-semites and fascists are all dead and buried. If they were alive I wouldn't want to financially support them. I usually support separating the artist from the art but have to draw the line at murderous racists like Varg.

Quote from: Voros;943065I usually support separating the artist from the art but have to draw the line at murderous racists like Varg.

Is it murder, racism or the combo?  Seriously asking.  

A lot of people are saying somehow Varg steps over their personal "Artistic Atrocity" line.  His murder conviction had nothing to do with race, he stabbed another white guy in the Black Metal scene, a bandmate, presumably over money or personal grudges.

You Google famous artists guilty of murder, rape, and child assault charges, it might put a hurtin' on your music, movie and book collection.  

It's difficult, because I don't really want this place to turn into an alt-right cesspool where...Neo-Nazi's isn't the right term...NeoNeoNazis, NovaNazis, Genetic Seperatists...whatever come to congregate, but at the same time, whining about it isn't going to solve anything, and declaring some games Offiziell Verboten I don't think is the answer either (not to mention so fucking Irony-Meter breaking as to be fracturing reality).

Maybe less " I can't hear you over the sound of how indignant I am." and more "Here is X, Y, Z and whatever else that outs your bullshit for what it is" is the answer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943091Is it murder, racism or the combo?  Seriously asking.  

A lot of people are saying somehow Varg steps over their personal "Artistic Atrocity" line.  His murder conviction had nothing to do with race, he stabbed another white guy in the Black Metal scene, a bandmate, presumably over money or personal grudges.

You Google famous artists guilty of murder, rape, and child assault charges, it might put a hurtin' on your music, movie and book collection.  

It's difficult, because I don't really want this place to turn into an alt-right cesspool where...Neo-Nazi's isn't the right term...NeoNeoNazis, NovaNazis, Genetic Seperatists...whatever come to congregate, but at the same time, whining about it isn't going to solve anything, and declaring some games Offiziell Verboten I don't think is the answer either (not to mention so fucking Irony-Meter breaking as to be fracturing reality).

Maybe less " I can't hear you over the sound of how indignant I am." and more "Here is X, Y, Z and whatever else that outs your bullshit for what it is" is the answer.

I remember someone was posting exerts from the book that basically describes Nubians like goblins in a classic RPG. Perhaps they could do it again.

And actually, regarding to the stabbing, it's not entirely true. Euronymous was a known...well, he wasn't a Stalinist per se,  but he was a (sigh) "Anti-Revisionist Leftist."

The thing with Varg's RPG is, that as I understood from reviews, it's one of those "wink wink nudge nudge" pieces, where it's nowhere openly stated, like in RaHoWa, what's the deal, but overall, you are supposed to play a Nordic Noble Savage Fighting Decadents character.

QuoteSo, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

But that does put a dime in an open Nazi's pocket. Plus to that given fanbase, even a most scathing, fact-based review'd be dismissed as "liberal butthurt." I mean, let's face it - "it's less offensive than RaHoWa, and it is actually finished unlike that one" is not the best selling point. I have nothing against talking about the game itself, but theoretically you can also start a thread on FATAL and Synnabar and expect people to take it seriously.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;938391Racism and sexism, all wrapped in the worst possible font asides Wingdings?

Ah yes. Papyrus. Zhe irony, she is like a thick, like a proper babushka.

Quote from: trechriron;942574Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

It's all fine and dandy, and I am sure that certain philosophers'd be crying tears of joy, but at the end of the day, you are still defending desperately a game that's less shitty RaHoWa. The differences are, when you want to buy something in modern word, there are practically no alternatives to the 3rd world sweatshops. There are, however, RPGs not written with intend, nor by, White Supremacists.


And no, buying it doesn't make you Evil or a Nazi, nor does necessarily playing it (I am pretty sure the OP just saw a cool mechanic for Howardian play), but you do have to ask yourself - what does this game have, that Crypts & Things don't, that makes it somehow valuable to just skim over the intended legacy of the work.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943050So, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

I'm almost tempted, just to deliver something akin to the epic FATAL review from back in the day that introduced an unsuspecting world not only to the anal circumference tables but also the mind-bending horror of tubgirl. But holy fuck man, Mid-terms are coming up, and I've got miniatures to paint and games to write.

Still, I'll look around for a used copy. At the very least, I could burn the insides after I was done and just hang on to the cover, which honestly deserves to be on a better RPG.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094I remember someone was posting exerts from the book that basically describes Nubians like goblins in a classic RPG. Perhaps they could do it again.

I've also seen people report that Khemites are accepted just fine in Thule and can be PCs, but can't be nobles (of course not many cultures with nobles let outsiders be one) and that being a Bigot is described as a negative trait.  

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094And actually, regarding to the stabbing, it's not entirely true. Euronymous was a known...well, he wasn't a Stalinist per se,  but he was a (sigh) "Anti-Revisionist Leftist."

So politics is a race now?  They were band members who had some kind of a business problem, but who cares, we'll never really know "why".

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094The thing with Varg's RPG is, that as I understood from reviews, it's one of those "wink wink nudge nudge" pieces, where it's nowhere openly stated, like in RaHoWa, what's the deal, but overall, you are supposed to play a Nordic Noble Savage Fighting Decadents character.

Unfortunately, I've yet to see an honest review free of SJW Virtue Signaling...as a result, it doesn't matter whether they are telling the truth or not, you can't trust that they are, because End, Means, etc.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094But that does put a dime in an open Nazi's pocket.

True, there is that, maybe the internet can provide.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094Plus to that given fanbase, even a most scathing, fact-based review'd be dismissed as "liberal butthurt."

I don't give two shits about the Myfarog fanbase, someone who I know is reasonably trustworthy and sane doing a review would be fine.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094I mean, let's face it - "it's less offensive than RaHoWa, and it is actually finished unlike that one" is not the best selling point.

Heh, true.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094I have nothing against talking about the game itself, but theoretically you can also start a thread on FATAL and Synnabar and expect people to take it seriously.

Don't fuck with the LaserBears.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094she is thick, like a proper babushka.

Just like my prababcia, but what can they do?  18 - supermodel, 68 - potato brick.  I think it's the cost of practically being guaranteed to making it into the 90s.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943100I've also seen people report that Khemites are accepted just fine in Thule and can be PCs, but can't be nobles (of course not many cultures with nobles let outsiders be one) and that being a Bigot is described as a negative trait.  

As I said - wink wink, nudge nudge. Like not racism, but racial realism.

QuoteSo politics is a race now?  They were band members who had some kind of a business problem, but who cares, we'll never really know "why".

Touche - to be honest, they were two really... peculiar individuals, politics aside. I'd not leave a unsupervised child with neither of those two, so to speak.

QuoteUnfortunately, I've yet to see an honest review free of SJW Virtue Signaling...as a result, it doesn't matter whether they are telling the truth or not, you can't trust that they are, because End, Means, etc.

Partially because it is a product with a very, ekhm...specific target audience for most, so the positive reviews might have the exact reverse problem, if you catch my drift. So obviously the most reviews not from target audience, given the controversy, will be from ideological opponents - and I doubt this has the excellent artistic merit of Birth of Nation, so to speak. But I can be wrong on the game's actual gaming merit, but from the exempts I've seen...it would have to be pretty spectacular gaming material to get past the winks and nudges.

QuoteTrue, there is that, maybe the internet can provide.

I don't give two shits about the Myfarog fanbase, someone who I know is reasonably trustworthy and sane doing a review would be fine.

Well, if someone is up to the task, it is foundable by means of simple google fu. I'll look around it myself after work.

QuoteJust like my prababcia, but what can they do?  18 - supermodel, 68 - potato brick.  I think it's the cost of practically being guaranteed to making it into the 90s.

Hells, think what we'll look like at that age.

Ultimately, I'm not saying ban the threads, but considering the author, would you be surprised if people were offended that discussion of an RPG written by Anwar al-Awlaki, with a pro-Jihadi message even if the message is "Salafism is the Light", not "Death to all infidels", takes place? Considering how Breivik is one of Varg's heroes, and his videos(viewing for "where eagles dare only") that is not that far of a stretch.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943106Ultimately, I'm not saying ban the threads, but considering the author, would you be surprised if people were offended that discussion of an RPG written by Anwar al-Awlaki, with a pro-Jihadi message even if the message is "Salafism is the Light", not "Death to all infidels", takes place? Considering how Breivik is one of Varg's heroes, and his videos(viewing for "where eagles dare only") that is not that far of a stretch.

See now that is actually a good parallel.  If it was a game that actually explored Islamic concepts in a roleplaying context, that might be very interesting.  To directly compare to Myfarog, if the Muslim version existed, I would care less about a Salafi or Wahhabi viewpoint that showed Thulean women to be painted whores that the Righteous must not touch if there was some awesome Sufi Mysticism stuff I could lift for other games.

That's why I'd like see a detailed mechanics breakdown that ignores the political bullshit, to see if there's anything interesting on Nordic magic or religion.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943128See now that is actually a good parallel.  If it was a game that actually explored Islamic concepts in a roleplaying context, that might be very interesting.  To directly compare to Myfarog, if the Muslim version existed, I would care less about a Salafi or Wahhabi viewpoint that showed Thulean women to be painted whores that the Righteous must not touch if there was some awesome Sufi Mysticism stuff I could lift for other games.

That's why I'd like see a detailed mechanics breakdown that ignores the political bullshit, to see if there's anything interesting on Nordic magic or religion.

I see your point, but let me remind you, that Gun Leveling mechanics were also pretty new idea at the time of RaHoWa, but I think we both'd rather send someone to Earthdawn for Item Leveling rules . I'll give it a look as I've seen 2-3 reviews that should guide me to the proverbial "goodies" to demonstrate. The problem also with games like this, is that they are not exactly making a sane conversation about Howard's Sword & Sorcery any easier (let's face it, he was no Lovecraft but not exactly Mark Twain neither).

To make with music industry metaphor, as I think it's apt - ultimately, when we talk about games like this, they fall in the territory of the differences between Death in June and Death in Rome.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943131To make with music industry metaphor, as I think it's apt - ultimately, when we talk about games like this, they fall in the territory of the differences between Death in June and Death in Rome.

Yeah but when Death in Des Moines crops up, are you goin to accept Rolling Stones' opinion as Gospel as to which side they are on, or give them a listen?

Quote from: CRKrueger;943134Yeah but when Death in Des Moines crops up, are you goin to accept Rolling Stones' opinion as Gospel as to which side they are on, or give them a listen?

Does it have Vikernes as headliner? . I know what you mean, and it's a very good sentiment, the intellectual pursuit of "what if the other side is right," one I generally share, too. But on the other hand, if I know the author, his views, his works and interviews, I can read the Rolling Stone article and have a more or less good guess if it's worth a listen at all. I mean, if Vince Baker will publish another RPG and it's quoted as Best Thing Ever, would you need to give it a try before knowing it's most likely not for you, and it bears close examination before sending to Storygames section? We live in an age when we are bombarded by content, so making an informed opinion on everything is harder and harder. Like the old saying - when you see a dump, you don't need to stick a finger and lick it to be sure it's a dump.

As I said - I'll take a look, just for the shits and giggles. Perhaps you are right, and there is something salvageable there, but I doubt it. You are also right that it's much more effective that we ourselves push back against something, rather than rely on censorship or limitations, but the question I'd rise is - but what if the push back machinery appears to be broken?

Edit: Also, as I said before, in case of dealing with works of genuine fascists/nazis like Varg, it's all about those winks and nudges, and that's why authorship matters. Because let's face it, if Monte Cook makes a game where a race called "Weaklings" by denizens of said world has a bonus to treachery and semitic looks, we'll know that they are called "Weaklings" because inhabitants of that world are your typical medieval assholes afraid of everyone who's not from their home village, but when someone like Varg does that, well...then you can't help but wonder if it's just in-game narration.

Quote from: CRKrueger;943050Actually he admitted what brought it onto his radar WAS the Outrage Brigade demanding that it can never be spoken about.
Now at that point he probably had no idea who Varg was, what his politics were, never heard of Burzum, and never saw any "Thulean Perspective" websites or videos.

So he did know it was controversial.  That's the problem with the calls to silence people, to ban books or discussion about them.  People will buy it just to spite you.

F.A.T.A.L. came out like, what, 12-15 years ago, the Outrage Brigade wasn't in full swing, so the game wasn't just blacklisted for including rules for sex.  Some people heard "Anal Circumference Table" and that was that, but other people actually read it and did rather detailed takedowns of the mechanics.  Even purple itself did a review, one so filled with bilous invective, smug superiority, and really bad attempts at SA-like humor that it's almost as painful to read as FATAL itself - but they did review it.  They didn't just say "This game is declared Anathema", they showed why it sucked.

So, what Tristam should do is...
1. Buy Myfarog (with corresponding donations to offset the evil done)
2. Deliver an absolutely scathing review proving beyond the shadow of a doubt how terrible it is.
3. All of us can mock it forever based on something other than the reputation of the author.

After much consideration, I'd agree with that post:).

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094The thing with Varg's RPG is, that as I understood from reviews, it's one of those "wink wink nudge nudge" pieces, where it's nowhere openly stated, like in RaHoWa, what's the deal, but overall, you are supposed to play a Nordic Noble Savage Fighting Decadents character.

So...like frigging Northern Wild Elves fighting orcs and drow:D?

QuoteBut that does put a dime in an open Nazi's pocket.

OK, that's simple, actually
Go and buy a second-hand copy on Amazon:D! If someone is selling it, presumably that person wasn't fine with it and considered buying it a mistake (or, if it was listed as "New" or "Like New", maybe it was a black metal fan who bought it and only realized later that it's a book that requires dice...either way, it's not a "known" racist).

QuotePlus to that given fanbase, even a most scathing, fact-based review'd be dismissed as "liberal butthurt."

You don't write reviews for people that have made up their mind already.

QuoteAnd no, buying it doesn't make you Evil or a Nazi, nor does necessarily playing it (I am pretty sure the OP just saw a cool mechanic for Howardian play), but you do have to ask yourself - what does this game have, that Crypts & Things don't, that makes it somehow valuable to just skim over the intended legacy of the work.

Much as I like C&T, both editions, it's not really a highly-lethal game.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;943095I'm almost tempted, just to deliver something akin to the epic FATAL review from back in the day that introduced an unsuspecting world not only to the anal circumference tables but also the mind-bending horror of tubgirl. But holy fuck man, Mid-terms are coming up, and I've got miniatures to paint and games to write.

Still, I'll look around for a used copy. At the very least, I could burn the insides after I was done and just hang on to the cover, which honestly deserves to be on a better RPG.

Or you can mail one to my address, and I'll write that review for you:D! I don't have mid-term exams any more.

Quote from: Rincewind1;943106Hells, think what we'll look like at that age.

At 90, I'd expect to look like any other ash, pretty much.

QuoteUltimately, I'm not saying ban the threads, but considering the author, would you be surprised if people were offended that discussion of an RPG written by Anwar al-Awlaki, with a pro-Jihadi message even if the message is "Salafism is the Light", not "Death to all infidels", takes place?

It's not that easy to separate the two.
And well, there is an RPG that seemingly presumed Islam had won the battle for domination in a fantasy setting - or at least, all of the human Realm was following the Law. When the Law seemed modeled after Islamic teachings and the setting seems more than loosely inspired by it, it's an easy jump to make.
There are history-related reasons that people from my region would view his game's setting in pretty much the same way that Afroamerican and Jewish players would probably see a hypothetical setting where the South has won the Civil War, then allied with the Axis in WWII, and together they imposed a slave-owning Nazism over the whole world.
I don't begrudge it that, though. In fact, I suspect the author doesn't realize that's the case. (Or maybe he does, and thinks that it helps making it an even more suitable setting for a horror game - I neither know nor care).

Still, I even ran a one-shot of it, and would recommend it to most people. My group didn't like it, but I'd probably import some of its mechanics to other OSR games;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;943128See now that is actually a good parallel.  If it was a game that actually explored Islamic concepts in a roleplaying context, that might be very interesting.  To directly compare to Myfarog, if the Muslim version existed, I would care less about a Salafi or Wahhabi viewpoint that showed Thulean women to be painted whores that the Righteous must not touch if there was some awesome Sufi Mysticism stuff I could lift for other games.

How about a Salafist/Wahabist version which shows Thulean women to be painted whores who have to be converted to the Right Path via marriage:D?

QuoteThat's why I'd like see a detailed mechanics breakdown that ignores the political bullshit, to see if there's anything interesting on Nordic magic or religion.

+1 to that;).

Quote from: Rincewind1;943094...

It's all fine and dandy, and I am sure that certain philosophers'd be crying tears of joy, but at the end of the day, you are still defending desperately a game that's less shitty RaHoWa. The differences are, when you want to buy something in modern word, there are practically no alternatives to the 3rd world sweatshops. There are, however, RPGs not written with intend, nor by, White Supremacists.

...

I am not "desperately" defending the game. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of decrying this game while still participating in capitalism elsewhere in our lives where the products' creators/manufacturers are questionable.

Just because it's easier to find alternatives to RPGs than cheap products made by cheap labor, doesn't excuse the hypocrisy.

Maybe it's just more convenient?

P.S. I think this guy is a deplorable self-hating ignoramus. I wouldn't tolerate this lost souls bullshit for a second. I find racism in any form unacceptable. Don't confuse my debate for free markets as tolerating racism. I can fight against mistreatment, oppression, and hateful behavior and still support a free market. I don't see a binary here.

Quote from: trechriron;943194I am not "desperately" defending the game. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of decrying this game while still participating in capitalism elsewhere in our lives where the products' creators/manufacturers are questionable.

Just because it's easier to find alternatives to RPGs than cheap products made by cheap labor, doesn't excuse the hypocrisy.

Luckily, not every consumer is uneducated and some of us apply the same ethical evaluations of all our purchases, so we don't have any hypocrisy to excuse.