Quote from: Tristram Evans;941835You claim it isn'ta shit system. Reviewers who have read the game have stated it is, and provided convincing examples to back up their claim. And in this case the onus is not just to prove the system is in someway worthwhile, but that its such an extraordinary game that it makes it worth it for one to put aside the White Nationalist creed of the awful waste of human flesh of a creator that informs the setting of the game.

So far your example does not distinguish the game in any way from hundreds of other game systems. So what makes the game unique? What makes it worthwhile as a system above and beyond the myriad of choices available that don't have any ties to bigotry?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;941839"Accept" isnt even the right word, in that the quality of the game would only be of any interest if it was in someway exceptional to the point that its blatant ties to abhorrent ideologies might be worth considering looking past. I've read both positive and negative reviews. I've read reviews that focused entirely on the inherent racist agenda of the game, and I've read reviews that ignored all political context. What I've yet to see is any indication the game system offers anything that multitudes of RPGS without any moral quandries involved don't already provide.

Exactly. Nothing he has said makes me think that it can do anything that something like HarnMaster or Chivalry and Sorcery already does without any ties to such a horrible author. But he already knows this and just wants to troll people to get attention.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;942006Exactly. Nothing he has said makes me think that it can do anything that something like HarnMaster or Chivalry and Sorcery already does without any ties to such a horrible author. But he already knows this and just wants to troll people to get attention.

How exactly am I trolling anyone?  I did not force anyone to comment on this thread, nor have I gone into anyone else's thread and pushed my views on them.  

I was asked to comment on the game system and explain what I liked about it.  If you don't want to play it, well..... Don't.  Now wasn't that easy?

Funny you mention Harnmaster and others have mentioned Runequest, and those were two of the games that supposedly inspired MYFAROG.

Quote from: Bluddworth;942016Funny you mention Harnmaster and others have mentioned Runequest, and those were two of the games that supposedly inspired MYFAROG.

What in the world do those have to do with each-other?  So a white supremacist stole some mechanics from games not made by crazies.  Yay?

The movie Taxi Driver supposedly inspired the attempted assassination of Regan.  That doesn't mean that liking the movie means that you wanted John Hinckley to shoot the president.

Quote from: Bluddworth;941992Well I really can't spill the table beans, I'm sure that this website has rules against posting pictures of game rules from copyright materials.

But the system takes into account:  seasonal weather averages; time of day; wind speed and direction; temperature; precipitation; etc.

These all impacted ship speed, difficulty of sailing, amount of stamina used by characters on board ship, travel time, encounters, etc.

For long distance travel, the GM only needs to check for events evey 6 hours of travel.  So I did this ahead of time and laid it all out for the players as it happened.  I was half expecting the weather system to be as tedious as the critics made it sound, but in practice (and having used it for the first time) I found that the use of the 2.6 rules made it simple.  It also added an excellent story telling element to the adventure.  

That is one of the major points I make about the criticism of the game, it is usually based on the first edition and not on the most recent.  The same dilemma occurs in reviews of PC games, especially MMORPGs, which are often reviewed early on after release and not 6 months after release when many fixes are made.

*sigh* Disappointing! Sounds like promotinal blurbs than a system summary.

Also it sounds like a rehash of D&D's system of weather change intervals of 4 hours (instead of 6). That also had same factors accounted. It was on a 2 die saddlepoint system (like 1d8+1d12 encounter tables) though usually 2d6 to keep the spread of values lower. Also past values counterweighted adjusted against radical extremes -- so hurricanes don't flip into gentle breezes and so on (and hurricane eyes don't normally camp over a single spot for over 4 or 6 hour stretches at a time).

It's not all that hard to reduce system concepts into formulae. Give it a whirl. Besides, they can't be patented.

So...MYFROG is a D&D heartbreaker written by a nasty dude, thus we must chastise and demean all who enjoy the game...even though plenty of us probably have a D&D heartbreaker or two we enjoy.

Check.

So...where's the thread denouncing anyone who likes Disney owned IPs due to Walt's politically incorrect leanings?

Get on it people. These torches and pitchforks aren't gonna march themselves through the streets!

Quote from: Spinachcat;942566So...MYFROG is a D&D heartbreaker written by a nasty dude, thus we must chastise and demean all who enjoy the game...even though plenty of us probably have a D&D heartbreaker or two we enjoy.

er... no...

Its written by a known felon and self avowed hatemonger and the game has some deliberately questionable content.

So what we have just another variation on the old "Designer/artist/publisher is a crook but I dont care! I must have and promote their product!"

This is nothing new in the RPG, board gaming or art biz. Fans will justify anything. Just look at the worst of the Games Workshop fans as worse case scenario.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942566So... These torches and pitchforks aren't gonna march themselves through the streets!

Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

Quote from: trechriron;942574Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

The distinction is that no one is keeping anyone from doing something. The government isn't keeping people from buying this intellectual property. That would be censorship. Instead, people are making determinations and statements about what they think of people's action of buying said product. That's critique and analysis and being judged by your actions. That is accepting personal responsibility for your actions. Aren't we the site of letting people say what they want and taking responsibility for said statements like adults? Isn't that the entire point of being here instead of somewhere where what one says is constrained?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;942611... Isn't that the entire point of being here instead of somewhere where what one says is constrained?

Yes! yes. Absolutely. I was not admonishing people for stating opinions one way or the other. Rather I was commenting on what seems to be a popular trend to want to remove, make illegal, banish, etc. things "we don't like" (on a broader scale, not specifically here or specific posters here). It's one of the reasons I post here more than any other forum.

Quote from: trechriron;942574Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

For that you win a Donna Summer song! Let the topic surrealism commence!
Donna Summer - Wanderer
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B68xlfJ6Oyo[/youtube]

Quote from: trechriron;942574Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

Kudos, man!

Quote from: trechriron;942574Spot on. Time for a short introspection...

I find the whole witch-burning mindset to be terribly hypocritical. I'm sure many of the witch hunters use products from various countries with questionable to deplorable human rights, low wages, and thinly enforced labor laws. We all do. Most creators that existed before the InterTubes didn't have near the scrutiny any stalker can leverage today. And yet the revelations keep coming! Our heroes and idols of yesteryear are discovered to be malcontents, rebels or libertines. All the emotional energy we invest in super-stars wasted on drug-addicts and near-do-wells. And yet we keep looking. We keep searching for the "one true idol" that we know is pure, and just, and above the everyday distractions of the common person.

In our hearts we know there is no such thing. In the end, every person you idolize, every mentor you learn from, every super-star... are just people. Human beings. They have their own ideologies, morals, values and flaws. Just like you. Yet we use thier inventions, buy their products and subscribe to their services everyday. Who gets to define the line between "it's ok to buy the Badguy's stuff" and "it's NOT ok to buy the Badguy's stuff"? You? Me? A committee of "better informed, more intelligent" people? God? The government?

I'm not sure the "ultimate" answer could even be determined in our fora debates. So instead I'm going with the way I generally decide these things.

I'll decide. My buying decisions are no more hinged on a white-supremacist writing an RPG than they are on getting the lowest cost on goods from labor-camps *ahem* I mean, factories in the litany of 3rd world countries we buy them from. If you're going to dig in the weeds on a witch-hunt trying to determine my morals, do me a favor. Get the fuck out my weeds.

Another introspection about witch-hunts...

I believe all the hand-wringing about "the bad people" is really a search for a peer-group. A subconscious desire to find like-minded people. To form our tribes and build our rituals that give us a sense of safety and comfort. Except, we strive so hard to define these tribes, and fight so hard to remain independent, that instead of forming cohesive tribes, we end up with tiny "boutique" tribes. Each with slight differences with the same fanatic focus on righteousness. We then find ourselves isolated in our own little tribe. We have a sense of belonging strong enough to remain in our tribe, but worry that the security of that tribe is threatened by the lack of members.

The pitchforks and torches are not a real desire to eliminate an enemy. It is no longer about violence, or retribution... it's simply about raising a hue and attempting to find other members of our boutique tribe. A hope that you can connect with more people, that will increase a sense of belonging while strengthening the bulwark against feelings of insecurity.

Wanderers without a tribe have one asset we should all envy. The ability to Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. There are no hard lines. No borders. Just a desire to see where someone is coming from. Not judging, not deciding.

Maybe it's time we poke our heads out of our little tribal gatherings and see the world (or hobby or...) on a broader scale?

It is in the spirit of being a Wanderer that I asked the OP the questions I did. Not to judge the author, or to take a political stance against a group I have no personal knowledge of, nor to cry hue and hope to find flag-bearers from my boutique tribe. Instead I just sincerely wanted to understand.

I am grateful that many on the thread seemed to seek the same thing.

Agree with basic premise, but...

...there's quite of bit of swing in the pendulum when it comes to determining morality. One reprehensible act is not the same as another.  It's easy to say no one is entirely good or entirely evil. It's self-evident. But I think there's a difference between those who recognize that, and those who never inquire that of themselves, of those who wrong others, either in action or in spirit, and don't bother to justify their inhumanity because it's so ingrained in their being, they need no question.

So, we're commenting on a game system, and the creator is, by all accounts, a fuckwad. We can differentiate between the work and the man. This doesn't take away from the fact that there are those out there who would deny others their rights to exist freely, and somehow feel it is their God-given right to decide who those people are, and what should be done against it. Those who cry out against such things are not always just looking for a tribe. They're recognizing that there is evil in the world, if evil can be said to be an insular selfishness that causes one person to deny another basic human rights.

While we may debate about the definitions of such, there are certain things we know to be wrong, including, but not limited to the moral superiority you mentioned. And the devil in that is apparent when said superiority leads mass movements to ignore the better angels of human nature.  We're just talking about games here. And we are likely all inconsistent in our morality. But to cease questioning what we do, or others do, just embeds that tendency, I think.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942566So...where's the thread denouncing anyone who likes Disney owned IPs due to Walt's politically incorrect leanings?

I'm actually 99% certain you could find exactly that if one were to search my posting history (I don't have the time, tbh). I've been very vocal for years about my issues with Disney, from their distortion of copyright laws, plagiarism of foreign animation, cover-ups of child molestation in their amusement parks, history of animal abuse, support of McCarthyism, etc etc.

On the other hand, I'm not actually seeing any witch-hunting going on here.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;942881I'm actually 99% certain you could find exactly that if one were to search my posting history (I don't have the time, tbh). I've been very vocal for years about my issues with Disney, from their distortion of copyright laws, plagiarism of foreign animation, cover-ups of child molestation in their amusement parks, history of animal abuse, support of McCarthyism, etc etc.

On the other hand, I'm not actually seeing any witch-hunting going on here.

Off topic. But Disney was public called out on the news and I believe handed a lawsuit/fine on the vulture shooting incident and they caught flack on the news again for the daycare mural lawsuit incident.

They did though get away with the Kimba/Jungle Emperor rip off for example.

Some of the charges of molestation, possibly all were shown to be false, scams, or just plain impossible. But not all as Disney has had some employee issues. But what park franchise (or anything else) thats run for decades hasnt?

Back to RPGs.

Back in the 90s I worked with a couple of artists who later turned out to be crooks. One is currently doing time in prison. At the time there was no indicator there was trouble. Afterwards though now years later Im kinda unsure what to do with the art... I dont want to promote these people. But I kinda you know... sunk money into this stuff and just locking it in a vault seems not right. ugh!

It seems to me like the OP bought the game unaware of the issues behind the game.

And theres nothing wrong with that. People buy board games and RPGs every day and are unaware of whats going on behind the scenes.

Alot of people love Supremacy for example and it has won awards. But that is a horrendous example of game theft that the thief totally got away with. FFG? WOTC? Both have ripped off designers. SJG has some skeletons in their closet. and so on.