Greetings!

This is a great campaign supplement. I'm wondering, how many of you here have it, and what do you think of it?

Furthermore, does anyone think that Green Ronin will follow it up with any supporting modules?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I have it. I found it shakey and uneven.

I'm running a Roman campaign right now (Immortal Rome: basically, Highlander but in ancient rome, with full-on historical treatment).

There are basically three decent RPG sourcebooks for this: the Roman "green cover" sourcebook for AD&D 2e; GURPS Imperial Rome, and Eternal Rome by GR.    Of the three, the GURPS one is by far the best, and Eternal Rome by far the worst.

Leaving aside some rather unfortunately ideological commentary in the text of the book, the real and most direct problem with the book is that it suffers from a very serious case of multiple personality disorder. They never figure out in the book whether they want to create a sourcebook for D20 Historical Campaigns, a Fantasy D20 sourcebook, or a full-on D&D sourcebook.  They try to be all those things at once, and end up doing none of the three to satisfaction.

That said, its not all bad, not by a long shot. Like I've said, I use it.  The fame system is very well done, and the details about Roman government. Also, the descriptions of the roman territories are very good.

But if you're planning to run a historical roman campaign I would suggest that at the very least you try to get ahold of the GURPS sourcebook as well.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Interesting RPGPundit. I own all three books.

If I recall, Graeme Davis wrote Eternal Rome--the same author who wrote the green book of Rome for 2nd edition.

Any ideas on such a divergence then?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

Interesting RPGPundit. I own all three books.

If I recall, Graeme Davis wrote Eternal Rome--the same author who wrote the green book of Rome for 2nd edition.

Any ideas on such a divergence then?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The "green book on rome", actually titled "The Glory of Rome", was written by David Pulver.

The Eternal Rome sourcebook was written by Graeme Davis.

The Imperial Rome sourcebook for GURPS, by the way, was written by none other than C.J. Carella.

All three are quite different from each other.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe "green book on rome", actually titled "The Glory of Rome", was written by David Pulver.

The Eternal Rome sourcebook was written by Graeme Davis.

The Imperial Rome sourcebook for GURPS, by the way, was written by none other than C.J. Carella.

All three are quite different from each other.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Yeah, that's right. I have them somewhere in my library. I forgot the author's exact name. Indeed, they are all different from one another. Have you seen Fulminata? I've heard that it was interesting, but it does use a different system than D20.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

Yeah, that's right. I have them somewhere in my library. I forgot the author's exact name. Indeed, they are all different from one another. Have you seen Fulminata? I've heard that it was interesting, but it does use a different system than D20.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yup, I have a copy of Fulminata. Its a great resource too, with an extreme level of detail (its clear that the author has a high level of expertise on the subject). But of course, it deals with a later Roman Empire in an alternate history.  Still highly recommended as a sourcebook on Rome. I didn't care for the system much though.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SHARKFurthermore, does anyone think that Green Ronin will follow it up with any supporting modules?

Nope, the whole idea of Mythic Vistas was to provide one-off sourcebooks without having to spin every idea out into a multiple book line.

Quote from: NikchickNope, the whole idea of Mythic Vistas was to provide one-off sourcebooks without having to spin every idea out into a multiple book line.

I think that whole line has been superb (Eternal Rome is my least favorite of them, and I still think it's exceptional).

I still place it below the GURPS gook, but definitely above the Green Cover 2E one.

Quote from: Teflon BillyI think that whole line has been superb (Eternal Rome is my least favorite of them, and I still think it's exceptional).

Well, damn, you said it before I got a chance to. The whole Mythic Vistas line is great. They're the gold standard for this type of sourcebook for d20. If we're talking about the ones that draw on real world myth, legend, and history, there is a tie for my favorite - Medieval Players Manual and Testament. Both really go in quite different directions from the norm for such game books, especially d20. I'd give a slight edge to Testament for the sheer audicity they showed in statting out guys like Moses, Solomon, and David. The medieval book really evokes the period about as well as anything I've seen, and holds up in comparison to Ars Magica.

Quote from: Teflon BillyI still place it below the GURPS gook, but definitely above the Green Cover 2E one.

While I think the GURPS sourcebooks in general are the best examples of what I like in game sourcebooks, the Rome one, as well as many of the other historically-themed GURPS books, left me cold. It wasn't very inspiring, to be honest.

For some reason, I really prefer the AD&D "green book" historical reference line to their GURPS counterparts. I have the entire series, and while I think they err on the side of being too safe at times, they really seem to evoke the feel of the period they're covering. I actually think they're too light on the rules crunch in some respects, seemingly too timid to really get in there and make the rules of the game fit the era. The Viking and Celt books come closest to really reworking the system, with the Celt book especially foreshadowing 3e by a number of years with its "Heroic Feats."

I prefer the Green Ronin books to their AD&D green book counterparts, but even then the green books hold their own, in my opinion, when it comes to being informative about the actual history and culture of the era they cover. At least, insofar as they touch on the stuff gamers would need to know.

I was disappointed that Green Ronin said it would discontinue the line before they got a chance at doing a Viking or Celt sourcebook.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI was disappointed that Green Ronin said it would discontinue the line before they got a chance at doing a Viking or Celt sourcebook.

Really? They're discontinuing it? That's too bad. Damn.

Quote from: AcinonyxReally? They're discontinuing it? That's too bad. Damn.

That's what I remember reading.

Quote from: AcinonyxReally? They're discontinuing it? That's too bad. Damn.

Yeah.  Unfortunately, rave reviews aside, there just doesn't seem to be much of a market for those books right now.    The Mythic Vistas books were certainly among our favorite products to do, but buyers are so lukewarm (and our margin for error so much narrower after the Osseum debacle) that we just had to shelve it.

I have to say that the Mythic Vistas line was precisely the type of product line I had hoped to see with the advent of d20. Can someone - such as you, Nikchik - explain why SJG can be so prolific with their GURPS sourcebooks, when an outstanding line like MV can't sustain itself? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't know what the physical traits of the Mythic Vistas series are, but SJGames GURPS books have traditionally been a little skimpy on the graphic design stuff (which is cool with me) - pretty much all black/white, rather basic layout, and so on. That means they have lower costs for their books.

Note that with GURPS 4th, they have gotten somewhat less prolific. GURPS 4th has been out for almost two years now (I think it was released in August 2005), and so far they've released seven books for it (Infinite Worlds, Fantasy, Magic, Banestorm, Powers, Traveller: Interstellar Wars, and Space), plus some accessories like a chargen program and a GM screen. I understand that they have been following the industry trend toward fewer but bigger and prettier releases. The only straight comparison I can find between 3rd and 4th books is the 3rd ed Fantasy and the 4th ed Banestorm, both of which describe the world of Yrth. The 3rd ed book is 144 pages, black/white, and cost $19 (albeit in dollars a few years old). The 4th ed one is a 240 page full-color hardback for $35.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI have to say that the Mythic Vistas line was precisely the type of product line I had hoped to see with the advent of d20. Can someone - such as you, Nikchik - explain why SJG can be so prolific with their GURPS sourcebooks, when an outstanding line like MV can't sustain itself? I'm genuinely curious.

Hi Colonel,

I think a lot of things factor in.

GURPS has been around for a long time and has solidly cemented its reputation for having quality sourcebooks. I know people who don't play GURPS at all who regularly bought (and may still buy) GURPS sourcebooks to use as reference material for other systems. While the GURPS audience is definitely smaller than the D&D audience, the percentage of the D&D audience willing to buy d20 products is really pretty small. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the d20 audience was about the same size as the GURPS audience.

Competition certainly has some impact, too. That fraction of D&D players willing to try d20-branded or OGL products have a lot of options to choose from. GURPS players have only to look to SJG. Another difference is that GURPS is a toolkit system and I think their audience is used to picking and choosing things to build their own custom campaigns. D&D comes with an implied setting, and even if D&D players are picking up alternative sourcebooks from d20 publishers, every step away from the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk (and the elves and dwarves, the fighters and magic users) is more removed from the "core" players, inevitably cutting out some potential customers. I've known countless people who will pick up a GURPS book to use the material in other games, but that phenomenon doesn't go the other way: we just don't see GURPS or WoD or CoC players picking up d20 books to mine them for ideas.  Non-d20 players don't cross over for the most part.

Of course, as Dacke points out, even SJG has changed up the way they're dong their sourcebooks under 4th edition, so it's possible that their way of doing supplements from the 90s wasn't sustainable either. I don't really have any specific insight into that.