TheRPGSite

If you haven't heard, Green Ronin recently announced a Talent Search (http://greenronin.com/blog/2017/04/03/talent-search-announcement/) for a female author to pen the The Lost Citadel dark fantasy roleplaying game.

In the article, it is clearly mentioned;

Quote from: Talent Search Article"Not to worry, fellas, we have some other opportunities for you coming up later in the year, as well, but this talent search is just for the ladies."

However, the outcry was swift, vitriolic and loud.

The thread on the news article on ENWorld was closed.

The RPG.net thread started snarky but cooled out and is till open.

There are a couple threads on Reddit as well.

So, now on to some real discussion in a place known for it's civil discourse. :-D

My opinion:

First, I applaud the cause. There is a decidedly horrible shortage of female game designers followed only by the slightly-less-but-still-horrible shortage of female tabletop roleplayers. It's getting better. I've seen more women sitting at tables in the cons up here in the great wet north, but improvements are always welcome.

Second, it's a Talent Search/Contest, not an offer for full time employment. It will result in a contract for freelancing as I read it. So all the hilarious claims of law-breaking discrimination or law-breaking in general seem desperate and childish.

Third, With the lowest possible barrier to self-publishing that has ever existed in the history of the industry (hobby), why does it fucking matter? Did you believe you're so awesome that GR was going to just hire you - penis unseen - for a quickie freelancer contract on a project because #meritocracy? I'm astonished. Seriously. Kevin Crawford has posted How To Publish Shit Yourselves You Fucking Whiny Near-Do-Wells on so many forums so many times how in the FUCK SAUCE did you miss it? Just search the GOOGLES. Dudes. Seriously. It's been 7 fucking days! You could have had your first book on OBS by now!

However, this does bring up some interesting debate AND also perhaps some suggestions on how the industry (hobby) might do better at recruiting, or developing, or encouraging female designers/authors/creators to get more involved? Also, perhaps we could research and post some links to both works and bios of current female authors?

Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you - theRPGsite.

I interviewed the crew making Talislanta: Savage Lands (transcript coming soon!) - and Desi Conrad (https://geekdo.com/rpgartist/83729/desi-conrad) was one of the writers and is also an artist with Khepera Publishing.

Quote from: trechriron;956550If you haven't heard, Green Ronin recently announced a Talent Search (http://greenronin.com/blog/2017/04/03/talent-search-announcement/) for a female author to pen the The Lost Citadel dark fantasy roleplaying game.

Yeah, the last thread on this here was just closed.

QuoteThere is a decidedly horrible shortage of female game designers followed only by the slightly-less-but-still-horrible shortage of female tabletop roleplayers. It's getting better. I've seen more women sitting at tables in the cons up here in the great wet north, but improvements are always welcome...

...However, this does bring up some interesting debate AND also perhaps some suggestions on how the industry (hobby) might do better at recruiting, or developing, or encouraging female designers/authors/creators to get more involved?

Well, we could start with ditching the revisionist history that women roleplayers and game designers are some unusual and rare occurrence that is only now "getting better."

True, there are important women designers almost immediately making RPGs and sometimes the way people talk erases them and their contribution.

Quote from: Voros;956555True, there are important women designers almost immediately making RPGs and sometimes the way people talk erases them and their contribution.

That's right, it's all about erasure! Speaking of which... let's listen to their wisdom why "It Doesn't Have to Be" like that:

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AwsT4HuALcM[/youtube]

I don't know where this idea that you can discriminate in hiring for contractors is coming from. Go ahead, post "Hiring Straight White Men Only, Temp Work" and see how long until the gov't lights up your ass.

And if the gov't doesn't, your customers sure will.

Nobody should be posting discriminatory hiring whatsoever (except for the bona fide exceptions). No "girls jobs" and "boys jobs". No white jobs, black jobs, gay jobs, straight jobs. Just post the damn job and invite everyone to apply.

Wasn't THAT the liberal dream of equality?

I know this is nigh-impossible to understand, but the word "everyone" even includes women!

Also, this idea that the junk in your shorts somehow determines the quality of your writing is absurd. Its 1950s stupidity reversed for 2017's morons. Good writing doesn't drip off dicks or squirt from pussies. Dracula and Frankenstein or LotR and Harry Potter don't get better if you switch the authors' junk.

And you want to hire more women? Great, you gotta pay more. Because in 2017, if a woman can find her ass with both hands, she has plenty of fumbling panderers looking to virtue signal to their customer base.

That application is illegal.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm) states that no one will be denied employment by sex, race, religion or creed.  What they are advertising is a U.S. Federal crime.  End of discussion.

I can't speak whether it's legal under US law in their location, either:).

But to me, what Green Ronin is the right thing given their stated objective of getting more women writers in the hobby to correct what they perceive -
 rightly or wrongly, I'm not going to comment - as a gender disparity in the industry. Besides, it gives them a more diverse pool of writers, which is good for a game company with diverse customers. (Maybe some people wouldn't believe it's important for a game company, but what you think is largely unimportant - you're not running their company;)).

Why do I think it's the right thing? Because they are doing it by hiring more women. That's called "putting your money where your mouth is".
Also, they aren't trying to get a man fired or censor his work. It's not a policy of not hiring men, it's doing what they believe is good for the hobby and for their company in particular.
For all we know, they might even be misguided regarding what is good for the hobby, but they're pursuing their stated goals, and doing so in a non-confrontational manner. I think more companies should follow that example:D!

Now, maybe they shouldn't have advertised it as a job "for women and transgender writers". But that's part of the legality of the situation, and I don't want to even touch that part, because as was proven to me as far back as this week, sometimes* it's a wholly different subject from doing what you consider right.

*I'm just going to state that it wasn't a matter of criminal law.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956575That application is illegal.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm) states that no one will be denied employment by sex, race, religion or creed.  What they are advertising is a U.S. Federal crime.  End of discussion.

Not quite the end of discussion. From your link:

Quote(b) The term "employer" means a person engaged in an industry affecting commerce who has fifteen or more employees for each working day in each of twenty or more calendar weeks in the current or preceding calendar year

I'd be very surprised if Green Ronin fit that definition.

Quote from: AsenRG;956580I can't speak whether it's legal under US law in their location, either:).

They operate out of Seattle, Washington, and it's a FEDERAL crime, it's illegal anywhere, in any state.  That application request is breaking the law.

They can talent search in as shallow a pool as they like. After all is said and done they are still shitting on their customers by restricting potential writers to a specific pool. Instead of the best game that they could possibly produce, customers will be getting the best game that they could produce written by a woman. Why does a company who supposedly champions women insult them by effectively saying that they cannot compete with men on a level playing field?

I am not upset or outraged, just confused as to the purpose of this and the message that GR intends this to convey.

Having considered it, I think my response is threefold:

1. I am in favour of this being done.
2. I am against any and all self-congratulatory rhetoric about how awesome they are for doing it and how much everyone else sucks for not doing it.
3. Conversely, I am also against any and all vitriolic rhetoric about how horrible they are for doing it. Especially since 2 and 3 tend to form a mutual feedback loop and end up giving me a headache.

Come to think of it, that's pretty much my stance on pretty much all progressive initiatives I hear about...

Quote from: Voros;956555True, there are important women designers almost immediately making RPGs and sometimes the way people talk erases them and their contribution.

Is there a list of them? I'm curious because I honestly can't think of an early RPG written by a woman. Some modules (the first module was done by a husband and wife team), but not an RPG.

Quote from: Baeraad;956596Having considered it, I think my response is threefold:

1. I am in favour of this being done.
2. I am against any and all self-congratulatory rhetoric about how awesome they are for doing it and how much everyone else sucks for not doing it.
3. Conversely, I am also against any and all vitriolic rhetoric about how horrible they are for doing it. Especially since 2 and 3 tend to form a mutual feedback loop and end up giving me a headache.

I'm ofa very similar disposition, although slightly more to the apathetic side.

Quote from: trechriron;956550My opinion:

*snip*

That might all be well and good, but the exact same arguments can be made for the female whining etc. . So yeah, i agree with those who think stuff like that is unnecessary. If women want to get into gaming and/or game-writing, they very much can. And they don't need help (that often feels patronizing, btw).

That something like this gets lots of...heat...is not surprising. Because nowadays, especially in the US of A, minorities start to discriminate majorities just because they whine/cry louder than anyone else. I think there is a place for reasonable discussion about that problem, but the discourse i have seen online is often just fucking ridiculous and most often lead by some extremists who totally lost sight of any sane variant of "equal rights".

Neo-cons live in fantasy land, as well, when they get all up in arms about opportunities for the historically marginalized, spouting "how DARE you not extend additional opportunities for ME, too! ALL LIVES MATTER, DAMNIT!"

Come on...if GR wants to open some doors, let them. It's not your fucking company. It's theirs. If this chaps your ass that much, boycott their wares. And don't start in with the shit about, "Well, if they were advertising for straight, white guys," because straight white guys still rule the roost around here (and are evidently scared shitless at any indication that anyone wants to change the culture in anyway). Suck it up and drive on, vato.

And here I had thought Conservatives boycotted Green Ronin over Blue Rose 12 years ago, citing "Teh Gay Agenda" or something.

Identify as a woman. Sue them for discrimination if they deny your gender identity.

I'm largely apathetic, if mildly annoyed by the idea that targeting one group is peachy keen, but targeting another group makes you Officially Worse Than Hitler(tm).  Mostly, though, I'm curious whether this sort of thing actually has any large-scale effect.  Sure, if you open a position for women only, then that's going to mean one woman getting hired into the industry who might not have been otherwise, but is there any research showing that it will do anything more than that?  The proponents obviously like to assume that it will, but do they have anything more than good intentions to back that up?

Quote from: cranebump;956603Neo-cons live in fantasy land, as well, when they get all up in arms about opportunities for the historically marginalized, spouting "how DARE you not extend additional opportunities for ME, too! ALL LIVES MATTER, DAMNIT!"

Come on...if GR wants to open some doors, let them. It's not your fucking company. It's theirs. If this chaps your ass that much, boycott their wares. And don't start in with the shit about, "Well, if they were advertising for straight, white guys," because straight white guys still rule the roost around here (and are evidently scared shitless at any indication that anyone wants to change the culture in anyway). Suck it up and drive on, vato.

"Suck it up and drive on."

It's almost you're for traditional male stocism whenever it's convenient.

White guy succeeds. SJW's take it out on poor white guys. Look closely, it's just an excuse for rich white guys to fuck over poor white guys while pretending to be compassionate.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956620"Suck it up and drive on."

It's almost you're for traditional male stocism whenever it's convenient.

White guy succeeds. SJW's take it out on poor white guys. Look closely, it's just an excuse for rich white guys to fuck over poor white guys while pretending to be compassionate.

One of the MRAs could put his money where his mouth is and take legal action. Griping on the internet doesn't accomplish anything.

Quote from: Krimson;956626One of the MRAs could put his money where his mouth is and take legal action. Griping on the internet doesn't accomplish anything.

Legal change tends to follow cultural change. Judges and politicians aren't going to address men's issues until cultural attitudes shift. Until then there's always legal dodges they can make.

And where does legal funding come from? Discussing issues. Raising awareness. On the internet. But you're just trying to close off discussion.

And there's better cases for legal action (and what Green Ronin did might not even be illegal.)

This warrants legal action, I'd say.

http://watchdog.org/292821/male-accused-student-commits-suicide-school-railroading/

Quote from: Ashakyre;956620"Suck it up and drive on."

It's almost you're for traditional male stocism whenever it's convenient.

White guy succeeds. SJW's take it out on poor white guys. Look closely, it's just an excuse for rich white guys to fuck over poor white guys while pretending to be compassionate.

What I'm for is not getting worked up over something that doesn't actually harm you.  I'm a white dude. I'm not rich. I don't feel threatened or demeaned by this. I don't have to, because there are ample opportunities out there for me (which is sort of the point they're making). I just don't think we need to be so pissy that someone else gets to play with a toy that we don't.

I also think what some SJW's want is for white guy succeeding to admit that white guys have always had the advantage, because they made the advantage systemic. They would say that white guy doesn't succeed simply because white guy is so much more bad ass than everyone else. Various conditions contribute to white guy's badassery, among them the lack of any real barriers to what white guy wants to do, which allows white guy to be white guy's bad ass self much more easily than black/brown guy or any woman.

So, we get excluded from something. Well, guess what? Now we know what it's been like for women and minorities since the beginning. I think we can handle it better, which includes not screaming bloody murder when we see women and minorities have exclusive opportunities. Part of that is righting the ship. I may not always agree with how that's done, but status quo preachers are blind to the reality that very real injustices are woven into the fabric of a country that prides itself on being equitable. So, we either live up to it, or we admit we're a bunch of fucking liars, trash our supposed ideals, and call ourselves something else. Or, we can actually try to live up to our stated goals.

All that preaching aside, this is a simple issue. Their company, their pursuit. This is small potatoes. Quit whining and drive on.

P.S. Rich white guys fuck over EVERYBODY. Poor white guy needs to stop voting for rich white guy, just because he is rich, white guy.

1. Finding a more diverse writing pool for RPGs is good if...you believe someone's "journey", "voice" etc about their personal life will somehow critically inform their writing and be the key element.
Was Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk game somehow fundamentally informed by him being a Cisgendered Heterosexual Black Man born in the 50's?  If any of those things were different, would CYberpunk have been better or worse?  If so, which ones and how? Be specific.

2. It's a talent search for a contractor, not employment by an employer as defined by most labor laws, so I doubt they are breaking the law.  I'm also sure that if it were a white male talent search the internet would explode, they would be sued and lose.

3.  Doing this kind of thing in 2017 amounts to revisionist history, claiming women are this oppressed minority somehow kept out of gaming when the world of RPGs has always been more accepting of minorities than the computer game/tech industries that form the majority of gaming at this point.

4. Can we dismiss with the "If you have a problem with this, you're a dinosaur who is screaming at the approaching meteor, afraid of losing your power and control." attitude. It's pathetic.  What policies like this are founded on are the very dangerous idea that gender is destiny, race is destiny, sexual orientation is destiny.  If you possess Identity X, you are incapable of doing certain things, that can only be accomplished by Identity Y.  It's the most evil form of Nazi-style thinking that liberals have historically been fighting against and should always fight against, because that form of thinking has been the rationale behind oppressing minorities for most of human history.  When you are not the same class/caste of human as I am, I have reason to discriminate against you.  SJWs are trying to achieve Justice by taking the path and using the tools of Injustice.  They are trying to eliminate discrimination by discriminating.  Surely intelligent people can see this might not go so well.  It's essentially saying Hitler had the right idea, he just put the wrong people in the ovens.  Yeah, I went straight to the absolute extreme - that's where the path leads, and frankly, the most extreme SJWs have already gone there.

On a micro level, it's a very small thing that will potentially have a good effect, if you believe there are women who want to be RPG writers but are currently and actively being prevented from uploading a pdf to DTRPG, and the major companies like Paizo, WotC etc aren't hiring women, and these writers are so scarred from the patriarchy that they need the safety and comfort zone of a tryout exclusive to their identity before they will even step forward, in which case you and those like you...well maybe the oven isn't such a bad idea. :D

On a macro level, it's an action defeating the purpose.

Take this sort of crap to Pundit's forum--it isn't about role playing games it is about social agendas.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956583Not quite the end of discussion. From your link:



I'd be very surprised if Green Ronin fit that definition.

Washington state has stricter laws (http://www.workplacefairness.org/file_WA). Companies with eight employees or more are covered there. I'd still be surprised if Green Ronin had enough employees to qualify.

I agree with Trechiron. There is effectively no barrier to getting you RPG product to market these days. Green Ronin isn't some corporate gatekeeper holding back anyone's dream. I question whether publicly underlining this action is going to give Green Ronin more positives than the headaches it is sure to create, but that's their deal.

I know if I was a female RPG writer, I would rather that Green Ronin just quietly assembled an all female team and let it speak for itself. By making this a sideshow, they have set up a situation where the writers on the project might get some unpleasant attention that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Quote from: cranebump;956628So, we get excluded from something. Well, guess what? Now we know what it's been like for women and minorities since the beginning. I think we can handle it better, which includes not screaming bloody murder when we see women and minorities have exclusive opportunities. Part of that is righting the ship. I may not always agree with how that's done, but status quo preachers are blind to the reality that very real injustices are woven into the fabric of a country that prides itself on being equitable. So, we either live up to it, or we admit we're a bunch of fucking liars, trash our supposed ideals, and call ourselves something else. Or, we can actually try to live up to our stated goals.

So what you're saying is, we're only going to move from inequality to equality through more inequality.  We can only fix Injustice and get to Justice through Reversal of Fortune.  We cannot have Peace, except through Victory in War.  We can only stop Evil and do Good through selective application of Evil.

Again, this works in the very short term to achieve isolated specific goals, the jury is still out on efficacy on a large social engineering scale.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956627Legal change tends to follow cultural change. Judges and politicians aren't going to address men's issues until cultural attitudes shift. Until then there's always legal dodges they can make.

And where does legal funding come from? Discussing issues. Raising awareness. On the internet. But you're just trying to close off discussion.

And there's better cases for legal action (and what Green Ronin did might not even be illegal.)

This warrants legal action, I'd say.

http://watchdog.org/292821/male-accused-student-commits-suicide-school-railroading/

The student should have received a hearing, that's for sure.

Quote from: Baulderstone;956634There is effectively no barrier to getting you RPG product to market these days.

Do you mean for anyone, or only for certain Identities?  If anyone can do it, why the targeted campaign?  Are women incapable of doing this themselves without the cover of an exclusive pool of applicants?

Quote from: CRKrueger;956636So what you're saying is, we're only going to move from inequality to equality through more inequality.  We can only fix Injustice and get to Justice through Reversal of Fortune.  We cannot have Peace, except through Victory in War.  We can only stop Evil and do Good through selective application of Evil.

Again, this works in the very short term to achieve isolated specific goals, the jury is still out on efficacy on a large social engineering scale.

You're saying that having to give up some of the pie is unjust to white guys. That's bullshit, since white guys have more of the pie to begin with.

I'm saying white guy isn't used to being challenged, and often acts like a fucking ninny when he is, often because white guy won't admit that he has historical advantages, created and codified by white guy. White guy needs to admit that, and can admit that, without having to give up white guy's dignity.

P.S. I don't think the jury is still out. We've manged to engineer the society one way. Who says we can't engineer it another? But we need to agree on the blueprint somehow.

What are some good gaming blogs written by women?
AFAIK most all the ones I read, save one (Scrap Princess's), are by guys... but those are often where I become aware of people making cool things that I want to buy/fund.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9566291. Finding a more diverse writing pool for RPGs is good if...you believe someone's "journey", "voice" etc about their personal life will somehow critically inform their writing and be the key element.
Was Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk game somehow fundamentally informed by him being a Cisgendered Heterosexual Black Man born in the 50's?  If any of those things were different, would CYberpunk have been better or worse?  If so, which ones and how? Be specific.

It's the sign of the times. I intentionally have to think of Pondsmith as just another gamer guy making games, because when his skin color comes up, I don't want to focus on it, for any reason. (On the topic of games and gaming.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;956638Do you mean for anyone, or only for certain Identities?  If anyone can do it, why the targeted campaign?  Are women incapable of doing this themselves without the cover of an exclusive pool of applicants?

With the ability to self-publish, I'd say anyone capable of getting their stuff out there these days.

I can't speak to finding actual job openings within the industry, though.

Watching reactionary misogynists shit themselves is comedy gold.

Way to troll, Green Ronin, you magnificent bastards!

Quote from: cranebump;956639You're saying that having to give up some of the pie is unjust to white guys. That's bullshit, since white guys have more of the pie to begin with.

As is often said when speaking about minority groups - all "white guys" aren't the same. That they happen to be white isn't necessarily the issue here either (this is about women in the industry). The "pie" in this case is WotC. The rest of the roleplaying industry is a fairly cottage industry that, as been said upthread, has *zero* barriers to bringing a game to market.

Quote from: cranebump;956639I'm saying white guy isn't used to being challenged, and often acts like a fucking ninny when he is, often because white guy won't admit that he has historical advantages, created and codified by white guy. White guy needs to admit that, and can admit that, without having to give up white guy's dignity.

I'd say historically this is insanely inaccurate. Males are pre-disposed to compete. We're biologically programmed to do so. It's a function of evolution. To say "white guys" aren't used to being challenged, in light of history and how things have evolved - I'd say this is way off. Again - being "white" is not really an issue. I'm confident if you look at the RPG industries in foreign nations they're probably mostly male too. And for the same reasons that have little to do with oppression as a industry institution.

Quote from: cranebump;956639P.S. I don't think the jury is still out. We've manged to engineer the society one way. Who says we can't engineer it another? But we need to agree on the blueprint somehow.

Because historically this rarely has happened without great bloodshed. I'll grant you theoretically it could happen. But then theoretically Communism could work too. But it doesn't for the exact same reasons.

My take on this is - Cool for Green Ronin. If it's good, I'll buy it. If not, I won't.

Quote from: cranebump;956628What I'm for is not getting worked up over something that doesn't actually harm you.  I'm a white dude. I'm not rich. I don't feel threatened or demeaned by this. I don't have to, because there are ample opportunities out there for me (which is sort of the point they're making). I just don't think we need to be so pissy that someone else gets to play with a toy that we don't.

I also think what some SJW's want is for white guy succeeding to admit that white guys have always had the advantage, because they made the advantage systemic. They would say that white guy doesn't succeed simply because white guy is so much more bad ass than everyone else. Various conditions contribute to white guy's badassery, among them the lack of any real barriers to what white guy wants to do, which allows white guy to be white guy's bad ass self much more easily than black/brown guy or any woman.

So, we get excluded from something. Well, guess what? Now we know what it's been like for women and minorities since the beginning. I think we can handle it better, which includes not screaming bloody murder when we see women and minorities have exclusive opportunities. Part of that is righting the ship. I may not always agree with how that's done, but status quo preachers are blind to the reality that very real injustices are woven into the fabric of a country that prides itself on being equitable. So, we either live up to it, or we admit we're a bunch of fucking liars, trash our supposed ideals, and call ourselves something else. Or, we can actually try to live up to our stated goals.

All that preaching aside, this is a simple issue. Their company, their pursuit. This is small potatoes. Quit whining and drive on.

P.S. Rich white guys fuck over EVERYBODY. Poor white guy needs to stop voting for rich white guy, just because he is rich, white guy.

If you want to split the pie evenly then women have a lot of dying to do. Men are 80% of suicides and drug overdoses, 90% of the prison population and the vast majority of the homeless population too. Oh, and wars. Next war, for social justice, I want combat deaths to be 100% female. And amputations. And keep going like that war after war until we've equalized the exact number of combat deaths between men and women throughout history. Gotta split that pie, bro. No whining! Don't get pissy, OK? Now women can learn what it's always been like men when they're getting bayonetted.

Or we can have a look at benefits versus sacrifice, authority versus responsibility like reasonable people might.

Thread gon git closed.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956620"Suck it up and drive on."

It's almost you're for traditional male stocism whenever it's convenient.

White guy succeeds. SJW's take it out on poor white guys. Look closely, it's just an excuse for rich white guys to fuck over poor white guys while pretending to be compassionate.

I am in favour of traditional male stoicism, and proud of the fact.

Quote from: AsenRG;956650I am in favour of traditional male stoicism, and proud of the fact.

That's fine, but it has to be incentivized or you lose it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956638Do you mean for anyone, or only for certain Identities?  If anyone can do it, why the targeted campaign?  Are women incapable of doing this themselves without the cover of an exclusive pool of applicants?

I mean for anyone.

Why the targeted campaign? It's marketing. It's not like there haven't been traditional book publishers that leaned heavily on publishing female writers.

I'm not arguing that it is necessary. I just don't have any problem with it.

Quote from: cranebump;956639You're saying that having to give up some of the pie is unjust to white guys. That's bullshit, since white guys have more of the pie to begin with.

I'm saying white guy isn't used to being challenged, and often acts like a fucking ninny when he is, often because white guy won't admit that he has historical advantages, created and codified by white guy. White guy needs to admit that, and can admit that, without having to give up white guy's dignity.

P.S. I don't think the jury is still out. We've manged to engineer the society one way. Who says we can't engineer it another? But we need to agree on the blueprint somehow.

Of course White Men have advantages.  That's not the question.  The question is, can we force Justice and Correction through societal engineering via Identity Politics?  Is that going to help or is it going to make it worse and actually take longer due to invoking backlashes and Culture Wars? {Glances at the White House}. Have we made the progress we have due to enforced mandates or the advances of technology?  Hand up or hand out?  Righting a wrong or creating cultures of victimhood?  There's evidence the short-term good, which looks good for election statistics, may be doing long-term cultural harm.  

The point is, we need to stop and think, rather than jump to the standing ovation.  Could anyone other than a black woman have written Beloved or The Color Purple?  I don't know, but if we're going to get rid of anything done by a writer who did not directly experience what they are writing about, then we're going to lose 90% of everything ever written as well as admit that human empathy and creativity do not exist.

Quote from: Baulderstone;956652It's marketing.

I'm not arguing that it is necessary. I just don't have any problem with it.

That right there is why I do have a problem with it.  It's a marketing move masquerading as social justice playing into a false narrative.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956644Watching reactionary misogynists shit themselves is comedy gold.

Way to troll, Green Ronin, you magnificent bastards!

If you weren't replying to me, ok, if you were, then please kiss my ass, right in the crack, feel free to use tongue. :D

As an isolated event, this is a good thing.  What's the desired result?  Finding a talented RPG writer and give them work and exposure they currently do not have.  That's good for them, good for the company, good for gamers who buy the product.

However, think about it...if this person hasn't attempted to do anything like this before, then why would they come up now?  RPG companies have talent searches, there's usually a few a year from one company or another.  So who is Green Ronin going to get with this specific one targeted at only females?  It's basically saying "We know the industry is preventing you from writing an RPG, so we're going to give you this special opportunity."  I don't really know how that's going to help the industry or the culture at large, since the idea itself is horseshit.  Does anyone really think WotC and Paizo are discriminating against female writers? REALLY?

Now, to be honest, I am considering the source.  If some other company had done this, it's very possible they had a specific project in mind and simply wanted to see if they could get some different points of view.  The idea isn't that men and women don't think a little differently, it's the idea that they CAN'T think differently that I am against.  Different perspectives are good things.  The problem is, because it's Green Ronin, we know the reasoning behind it is political activism based on a toxic narrative, or worse marketing based on that toxic narrative.

Quote from: tenbones;956645As is often said when speaking about minority groups - all "white guys" aren't the same. That they happen to be white isn't necessarily the issue here either (this is about women in the industry). The "pie" in this case is WotC. The rest of the roleplaying industry is a fairly cottage industry that, as been said upthread, has *zero* barriers to bringing a game to market.



I'd say historically this is insanely inaccurate. Males are pre-disposed to compete. We're biologically programmed to do so. It's a function of evolution. To say "white guys" aren't used to being challenged, in light of history and how things have evolved - I'd say this is way off. Again - being "white" is not really an issue. I'm confident if you look at the RPG industries in foreign nations they're probably mostly male too. And for the same reasons that have little to do with oppression as a industry institution.



Because historically this rarely has happened without great bloodshed. I'll grant you theoretically it could happen. But then theoretically Communism could work too. But it doesn't for the exact same reasons.

My take on this is - Cool for Green Ronin. If it's good, I'll buy it. If not, I won't.

Heh, countdown to white guys Whitesplaining racism to the Japanese guy. ;)

If women were as interested in RPGs as men (or more interested, say), then they would have taken over the hobby long ago. That's what happened to fiction literature in general (check recent authors on the book shelves; more women than men). If women are underrepresented in a field or hobby, it is not necessarily due to sexism. It's not necessarily due to any "problem" at all. Sure I would have liked more women in the hobby, but liking an idea does not make it realistic (and seriously, A LOT of people can't tell the difference).

Quote from: Ashakyre;956627Legal change tends to follow cultural change. Judges and politicians aren't going to address men's issues until cultural attitudes shift. Until then there's always legal dodges they can make.

And where does legal funding come from? Discussing issues. Raising awareness. On the internet. But you're just trying to close off discussion.

Yeah, that's exactly how the SJWs justify their endless whining, too. "We're screeching and howling for a better tomorrow!" How well has that worked out for them so far, hmm? Oh, that's right - they managed to make themselves so hated that people went and elected a President who seems like he was custom-made in a laboratory for maximum SJW displeasure, just to spite them.

Perhaps you should reconsider the efficiency of your tactics, is what I'm saying. Because right now, far from making me more sympathetic to your cause, you're making me actively want to go out and hug a feminist.*



* And then she'd file sexual harassment charges, because if it's one thing feminists hate it's weird guys going up to them and hugging them for no particular reason. And then I'd be in all sorts of trouble. So cut it out! :p

Quote from: Krimson;956626One of the MRAs could put his money where his mouth is and take legal action. Griping on the internet doesn't accomplish anything.

It does accomplish something. Creating this situation causes buzz on the internet for a game that otherwise will probably not distinguish itself from others. It probably did a lot for the 'vagina' cover design (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-all-woman-swords-wizardry-printing.html) for Swords and Wizardry. They can virtue-signal and get buzz at the same time, and pull back in the Blue Rose crowd, too.

I applaud their clever marketing technique. But it seems really quite hard to differentiate yourself nowadays, and if the message is about the message around the product, rather than the product itself, then it just tells me that Green Ronin isn't producing particularly interesting products anymore.

Quote from: JeremyR;956597Is there a list of them? I'm curious because I honestly can't think of an early RPG written by a woman. Some modules (the first module was done by a husband and wife team), but not an RPG.

Quote from: Simlasa;956640What are some good gaming blogs written by women?
AFAIK most all the ones I read, save one (Scrap Princess's), are by guys... but those are often where I become aware of people making cool things that I want to buy/fund.

THIS is what I believe we should be hitting on. Boost the signal on woman creators. Post links to woman creators you appreciate OR you just discovered looking for female creators. It's a constructive activity. I also think the question by CJKrueger is a good one - does the author's gender, gender identity, sexuality, ethnicity, religion or other identifying characteristics affect the quality or even color the work produced by that creator?

Quote from: CRKrueger;956659Of course White Men have advantages.  That's not the question.  The question is, can we force Justice and Correction through societal engineering via Identity Politics?  Is that going to help or is it going to make it worse and actually take longer due to invoking backlashes and Culture Wars? {Glances at the White House}. Have we made the progress we have due to enforced mandates or the advances of technology?  Hand up or hand out?  Righting a wrong or creating cultures of victimhood?  There's evidence the short-term good, which looks good for election statistics, may be doing long-term cultural harm.

I think we just don't know, yet, the outcome of social advancement programs. For me, I'd rather help out as much as possible. I believe the average white person is completely in the dark concerning the experiences of minorities, even vicariously, through reading about such experiences, and, as such, cannot understand exactly the issues facing those unlike them. Further, I believe we too easily forgive the crimes of our ancestors because, "It wasn't me." I think we can admit grave injustice has been done, and still find a way to move forward. Like you, I am uncertain as to how to do that. I feel like a lot of this is part and parcel with income inequality and that, if we address that, we won't have to deal so much with giving a hand up or out, because poor people can break out of their cycle of poverty, which would be a boon for the historically disenfranchised, as well as the current.

QuoteThe point is, we need to stop and think, rather than jump to the standing ovation.  Could anyone other than a black woman have written Beloved or The Color Purple?  I don't know, but if we're going to get rid of anything done by a writer who did not directly experience what they are writing about, then we're going to lose 90% of everything ever written as well as admit that human empathy and creativity do not exist.

I don't think anyone's advocating that. I know I certainly wouldn't.

Quote from: cranebump;956679I feel like a lot of this is part and parcel with income inequality and that, if we address that, we won't have to deal so much with giving a hand up or out, because poor people can break out of their cycle of poverty, which would be a boon for the historically disenfranchised, as well as the current.

In that we're in perfect agreement.

Quote from: cranebump;956679I don't think anyone's advocating that. I know I certainly wouldn't.

Well that's the thing.  If you say we specifically want a "woman's voice", you're are somewhat implying there is something about that voice, you simply cannot get with a man.  The whole concept of cultural appropriation is partly based on this.  If you're Not X-race you can't do X-activity.  Now certainly, people with different life experiences are going to bring different biases and perceptions to the table, that much is clear.  However, that doesn't mean we should assume that someone who hasn't directly had that experience can't possibly come to know and understand that experience.

Take the movie Get Out.  It's a dark satirical horror/comedy about race relations in America...with a British black actor playing the lead.  A lot of American black actors spoke out, claiming that given the exact same script, director and cast, that a British Black couldn't bring to the performance what an American Black could.  Which, if you know anything about acting, demeans if not defeats the entire purpose of the art itself.

Either humans have Understanding, Empathy, and Imagination, and can come to understand the experiences and point of view of another without having lived that same life...or we can't.

It's one thing to say "It's great to have a person of Gender A, Orientation B, Race C, Culture D, and Religion E because they have a personal point of view different from most other people on the team."

It's another to say "We need and only want a person of Gender A, Orientation B, Race C, Culture D, and Religion E." because that implies exclusivity of human thought based on personal experience, again, completely denying imagination and empathy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956668Heh, countdown to white guys Whitesplaining racism to the Japanese guy. ;)

Oh I'm waiting for that one... heh.

Quote from: Trond;956671If women were as interested in RPGs as men (or more interested, say), then they would have taken over the hobby long ago. That's what happened to fiction literature in general (check recent authors on the book shelves; more women than men). If women are underrepresented in a field or hobby, it is not necessarily due to sexism. It's not necessarily due to any "problem" at all.

This is a point I often raise when this stuff comes up. There are plenty of female-dominated hobbies, some of them I participate in. I've never seen any women wringing their hands over how to get more men involved. Sometimes I suspect that a portion of this energy is lonely maladroids looking for 'dates'.

Meanwhile, there have just about always been women in my RPG groups, both as GMs and Players. Generally a minority, sure, but a consistent presence. And I am aware of a number of women game designers, but for whatever reason the sorts of games they tend to write don't interest me all that much. I am a fan of Scrap Princess, and I did like Sarah Newton's 'Chronicles of Future Earth' - which I'd hoped would get it's proposed expansion for Mythras, but that's not happening... and Ms. Newton seems otherwise engaged with projects that don't float my boat.

I'm going to blow the lid off this topic with a news flash...women are not (as whole) as interested in rolling initiative on a group of glaive wielding orcs as men are.

I know that is a shocker to some of the folks falling all over themselves to be "more inclusive" but the only way you are going to get more chicks into your game is to start DMing My Little Pony.

There is no more a barrier to women in this hobby than there is to women writing romance novels. But the proportion of men writing romance novels is about the same as women writing fantasy gaming rules. (Don't blame the messenger!)  I'm sure if some woman wants to turn in rules on elves dry humping each other, Green Ronin will fall over itself to publish them to be inclusive.

In other words, sometimes the girls don't want to play with the boys. And that is ok! And sometimes you want to publish some SJW crap for a fake cause and I don't want to pay for it. And that is OK too!

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956687There is no more a barrier to women in this hobby than there is to women writing romance novels. But the proportion of men writing romance novels is about the same as women writing fantasy gaming rules.

There are more men writing romance novels than you think... but they pretty much have to do it under female psuedonym's.
I can't think of any games that were written by women posing as men so as to not scare away their audience... but perhaps they remain a secret. For all I know The Pundit may be a woman, over doing the whole machismo thing to the point of parody.

Quote from: trechriron;956675I also think the question by CJKrueger is a good one - does the author's gender, gender identity, sexuality, ethnicity, religion or other identifying characteristics affect the quality or even color the work produced by that creator?

I doubt it affects the quality per se, but I think it definitely makes a difference, albeit maybe not as much of one as the real diversity fanatics seem to think. It's not "we have all these White People books, we need more Black People books." It's more like, everyone's background and personal issues affect how they think and what sort of experiences they can draw on for their work.

The first example to come to mind is The Matrix, which has running themes of the identity you get assigned by the world versus the identity you make for yourself. We didn't find out until much later, but it was created by not one but two trans people. That doesn't make it "a Trans People movie," it just means that the creators had had cause to think a lot about certain things and put some of that in their work. Does it add a lot? Hard to say, but it certainly made a difference on some level.

So... does it make sense to specifically hire a woman for a particular project? I dunno, maybe? A little? It depends on just how deep this game plans to go into in-depth roleplaying and complex issues. A woman might indeed go at those slightly differently than a man would. On the other hand, if it's just another game of hitting ogres with a sword, well, I don't think that there are even the most subtle of different gendered approaches to that. :p

Quote from: cranebump;956679I think we just don't know, yet, the outcome of social advancement programs. For me, I'd rather help out as much as possible. I believe the average white person is completely in the dark concerning the experiences of minorities, even vicariously, through reading about such experiences, and, as such, cannot understand exactly the issues facing those unlike them. Further, I believe we too easily forgive the crimes of our ancestors because, "It wasn't me." I think we can admit grave injustice has been done, and still find a way to move forward. Like you, I am uncertain as to how to do that. I feel like a lot of this is part and parcel with income inequality and that, if we address that, we won't have to deal so much with giving a hand up or out, because poor people can break out of their cycle of poverty, which would be a boon for the historically disenfranchised, as well as the current.



I don't think anyone's advocating that. I know I certainly wouldn't.

I agree, believe it or not. We can't ignore the sins of our ancestors . Any of them. We need to go back to where it all started.

Africa.

I want reparations from Ethiopians for driving my people out of paradise and turning us into albino mutants. Every time a non african person gets skin cancer, an african person should pay for it.

Then we have to calculate what society would be like if no one left Ethiopia. And then take steps to create that society.

For starters, I think everyone on the planet should move back. Back to Ethiopia. All of us. Let's try this history thing again and get it right this time.

I haven't followed much about Green Ronin other than the announcement posted, but regarding the general legality and morality of looking for special attributes of a person:


There are a lot of jobs that call for certain attributes that are gender-specific or gender-biased. Acting and other appearance-related jobs are the most obvious, but there are many others - like security, massage therapists, counselors, and other jobs involving physical and/or personal contact. Even among non-physical jobs like writers, background can be important. Writers are often requested based on specific backgrounds for the perspective they bring - like "Seeking Polish immigrant authors to write stories of personal journeys."

This is particularly true of small employers, who may well have a specific focus - like an all-male dance troupe, say. They are hiring only men, but that doesn't necessarily spark protests. Likewise, I don't object to a family business who only hire family members, regardless of whether the family is predominantly white, black, or some other background. It is also important how the bias fits within the larger industry. I wouldn't have a problem if a one theater company, say, specialized in European historical dramas - but if all of the theater companies in a city are only casting white actors in white roles, then I'd have an issue with that.

Partly, specific jobs like this are not that big a deal to me because in practice, vastly more jobs can be effectively discriminatory without being up-front about it.

Quote from: tenbones;956645My take on this is - Cool for Green Ronin. If it's good, I'll buy it. If not, I won't.

Perfect!

Quote from: Simlasa;956690There are more men writing romance novels than you think... but they pretty much have to do it under female psuedonym's.
I can't think of any games that were written by women posing as men so as to not scare away their audience... but perhaps they remain a secret. For all I know The Pundit may be a woman, over doing the whole machismo thing to the point of parody.

I'm not conceding your point on all these men writing romance novels. I truly hope you are wrong. My grandmother had an entire wall with paper back romance novels she had bought at yard sales. I don't remember ever seeing one that said "written by a man" but who knows.

Regardless, if you are correct, you just prove my point that the barriers to men writing romance novels are more tangible than women writing gaming stuff. This is just not happening. There is no super secret publishing room full of geeky men saying "no. you can't come in" to any woman, let alone one with a half way decent idea. It just is not happening....

As for the Pundit, I must have missed the machismo too. He never struck my as anything more than an American ex-pat sitting on a beach in Latin America getting people to run his chat forum for him and occasionally turning out a gaming book to promote. Dude probably wears flip flops all day long for all I know.

Quote from: jhkim;956696I haven't followed much about Green Ronin other than the announcement posted, but regarding the general legality and morality of looking for special attributes of a person:


There are a lot of jobs that call for certain attributes that are gender-specific or gender-biased. Acting and other appearance-related jobs are the most obvious, but there are many others - like security, massage therapists, counselors, and other jobs involving physical and/or personal contact. Even among non-physical jobs like writers, background can be important. Writers are often requested based on specific backgrounds for the perspective they bring - like "Seeking Polish immigrant authors to write stories of personal journeys."

This is particularly true of small employers, who may well have a specific focus - like an all-male dance troupe, say. They are hiring only men, but that doesn't necessarily spark protests. Likewise, I don't object to a family business who only hire family members, regardless of whether the family is predominantly white, black, or some other background. It is also important how the bias fits within the larger industry. I wouldn't have a problem if a one theater company, say, specialized in European historical dramas - but if all of the theater companies in a city are only casting white actors in white roles, then I'd have an issue with that.

Partly, specific jobs like this are not that big a deal to me because in practice, vastly more jobs can be effectively discriminatory without being up-front about it.

But they're only asking for women and "non-binary" gendered people. Is this sufficient for the criteria that you're citing to make that difference? I personally can't name any game I've ever purchased based on the gender of the author of that game. I, personally, own quite a bit of stuff from Nicole Lindroos herself - I didn't buy it because she wrote from a specifically female perspective. I bought it because it was good for what I was running.

Seems like a pretty broad brush they're painting these assumptions with.  I think it in some ways it's saying something else other than what they intend. Because the outcomes are ultimately not going to be decided by the plumbing of the person doing the writing - it's going to be the quality of the work. Now, it *could* well be that the conceits of this game do require a certain perspective - I'm open to that. I can't imagine what that is that would from a business perspective have the author's gender be the difference in terms of whether it would attract my wallet.

And it's Green Ronin to make the call and succeed/fail on it. The promotion of it seems counter-intuitive to being an optimal business decision. But hey - it's their call to make. /shrug. I just want good games.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956700I'm not conceding your point on all these men writing romance novels. I truly hope you are wrong. My grandmother had an entire wall with paper back romance novels she had bought at yard sales. I don't remember ever seeing one that said "written by a man" but who knows.

It's something I've long heard from women I know in the publishing business: http://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blogs/questions-and-quandaries/publishing/are-men-writing-romance

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956700I'm not conceding your point on all these men writing romance novels. I truly hope you are wrong. My grandmother had an entire wall with paper back romance novels she had bought at yard sales. I don't remember ever seeing one that said "written by a man" but who knows.

Regardless, if you are correct, you just prove my point that the barriers to men writing romance novels are more tangible than women writing gaming stuff. This is just not happening. There is no super secret publishing room full of geeky men saying "no. you can't come in" to any woman, let alone one with a half way decent idea. It just is not happening....

A *LOT* of romance writers are male. Romance writing is a formula (like most genre fiction) and a lot of male writers churn out romance books under female pseudonyms to supplement their income/cut their teeth. If your'e good at it, it can be quite lucrative. I wouldn't say most romance writers are men, but there's enough of them to say its conservatively 30-40% (my ballpark).

You're pointing at this curious phenomenon of people looking at the surface of a "thing" and questioning the numerical makeup of that "thing". People tend to ignore deeper possibilities when convenient narratives that require no evidence other than the appearance of the "thing" itself. Look - there a bunch of they must be conspiring to keep out all the (reverse pun intended). As if there is nothing else that might explain it. This is the danger of identity politics though - there is never a sufficient explanation other than that surface-view.

Quote from: Baeraad;956691So... does it make sense to specifically hire a woman for a particular project? I dunno, maybe? A little? It depends on just how deep this game plans to go into in-depth roleplaying and complex issues. A woman might indeed go at those slightly differently than a man would. On the other hand, if it's just another game of hitting ogres with a sword, well, I don't think that there are even the most subtle of different gendered approaches to that. :p

I've gamed with women who were just as combat/action oriented as the guys. I've gamed with women who were into the talkiy rpg stuff more than fighting. It's almost like... women aren't some kind of hive mind and are instead, individuals. :)

The application is a dumb one, ignoring the legality of it for a moment.

Trying to push an agenda never works.  It's why Affirmative Action harms business and companies.  If someone doesn't want to work in an industry (like women in STEM fields) they shouldn't be forced to, because of the political climate.  All it does it is flood the industry with incompetent and unhappy workers.  Let the people who WANT to do the job do it, and guess what, the work will be better for it.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956700This is just not happening. There is no super secret publishing room full of geeky men saying "no. you can't come in" to any woman, let alone one with a half way decent idea. It just is not happening...

Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

The corollary issue of people not "feeling accepted" has blossomed into a identity-group comprised of lots of groups that likewise do not "feel accepted" that has created a narrative that anyone that doesn't agree with that narrative, jargon, uniform, dispostion on any level or topic, in support of their feelings - completely free of any facts contrary to the matter, are somehow evil.

The irony of this position is it's created its counterpart that now likewise feel "not accepted" by the aforementioend group, as if alienating the majority will have some sort of positive effect, when in reality it's just punitive and revenge motivated. Not to mention, often hypocritical.

But hey - that's why I think being a rational individual that doesn't hold onto ones surface-appearance or anyone else's is a much better position to have. I can't control other people's feelings. And nor do I want to.

I have to be quick....

Quote from: Simlasa;956702It's something I've long heard from women I know in the publishing business: http://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blogs/questions-and-quandaries/publishing/are-men-writing-romance

Quote from: From Simlasa's Link;956702So there you have it. While the road for men may be a little bumpier in their quest to write and sell fiction than it is for women, the road is there. And like with all genres, great writing will win out—no matter who writes it.

Yes I agree.

Quote from: tenbones;956703This is the danger of identity politics though

No, I think all identity politics are lame, which was my point from the get go. Plus it is a sucker's game:

Quote from: CRKrueger;956668Heh, countdown to white guys Whitesplaining racism to the Japanese guy. ;)

Quote from: tenbones;956684Oh I'm waiting for that one... heh.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

You mean "stinks" like not hiring cat piss men? Yeah I can get with that. But that is not an actual impediment to women working in the field. Just because I am a man does not mean I get to choose all of my co-wrokers and dictate their hygiene, dress, diet, or personal thoughts.

Green Ronin isn't just "hanging out the welcome sign". The reason you might agree with what I and Kreuger are saying is because it makes sense. If a business runs itself like it should, it will default the best product, most efficiently produced, at the best price (all things considered). Green Ronin is trying to apply nonsensical SJW attributes to their business in the form of a lame marketing ploy because feelz....

That is their right, I'm just exercising my right to call it out.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956651That's fine, but it has to be incentivized or you lose it.

I find it to be its own incentive.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956659Of course White Men have advantages.  That's not the question.  The question is, can we force Justice and Correction through societal engineering via Identity Politics?  Is that going to help or is it going to make it worse and actually take longer due to invoking backlashes and Culture Wars? {Glances at the White House}. Have we made the progress we have due to enforced mandates or the advances of technology?  Hand up or hand out?  Righting a wrong or creating cultures of victimhood?  There's evidence the short-term good, which looks good for election statistics, may be doing long-term cultural harm.  

The point is, we need to stop and think, rather than jump to the standing ovation.  Could anyone other than a black woman have written Beloved or The Color Purple?  I don't know, but if we're going to get rid of anything done by a writer who did not directly experience what they are writing about, then we're going to lose 90% of everything ever written as well as admit that human empathy and creativity do not exist.

Yeah, the "culture of victimhood" part is the one that worries me most.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9566291. Finding a more diverse writing pool for RPGs is good if...you believe someone's "journey", "voice" etc about their personal life will somehow critically inform their writing and be the key element.
Was Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk game somehow fundamentally informed by him being a Cisgendered Heterosexual Black Man born in the 50's?  If any of those things were different, would CYberpunk have been better or worse?  If so, which ones and how? Be specific.

I can't say what difference his race might have made, but I'd assume if Mike Pondsmith was gay, he would have been less likely to include the slang terms "input" and "output" as things that go together.
Would it have been a better or worse game for it? Likely, no. Would it have been different? Probably yes, in some subtle ways.

Quote from: tenbones;956684Oh I'm waiting for that one... heh.

You mean it hasn't happened yet:D?

Quote from: Baeraad;956691I doubt it affects the quality per se, but I think it definitely makes a difference, albeit maybe not as much of one as the real diversity fanatics seem to think. It's not "we have all these White People books, we need more Black People books." It's more like, everyone's background and personal issues affect how they think and what sort of experiences they can draw on for their work.

Yeah, this.

My take on Green Ronin's game is - I approve them taking a positive action in line with their previously declared views. And if it's a good game that interests me, I'm going to get it, because that's my previously declared view:p!

Quote from: CRKrueger;956667If you weren't replying to me, ok, if you were, then please kiss my ass, right in the crack, feel free to use tongue.

I didn't reply to anyone.

If the jackboot fits, wear it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956667As an isolated event, this is a good thing.  What's the desired result?  Finding a talented RPG writer and give them work and exposure they currently do not have.  That's good for them, good for the company, good for gamers who buy the product.

Yes it is.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956667However, think about it...if this person hasn't attempted to do anything like this before, then why would they come up now?

Ask Carolyn Janice Cherryh or Donna J Barr, who hid their identities as women behind initials to gain acceptance in sci fi and comics.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956694I agree, believe it or not. We can't ignore the sins of our ancestors . Any of them. We need to go back to where it all started.

Africa.

I want reparations from Ethiopians for driving my people out of paradise and turning us into albino mutants. Every time a non african person gets skin cancer, an african person should pay for it.

Then we have to calculate what society would be like if no one left Ethiopia. And then take steps to create that society.

For starters, I think everyone on the planet should move back. Back to Ethiopia. All of us. Let's try this history thing again and get it right this time.

You're being facetious, of course, but this really misses the point concerning slavery in America. The United States preached "all are created equal," but then allowed slavery to exist, even so. If anything, it should be charged with miss representing their product.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956720No, I think all identity politics are lame, which was my point from the get go. Plus it is a sucker's game:

I don't think we're saying anything different.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956720Green Ronin isn't just "hanging out the welcome sign". The reason you might agree with what I and Kreuger are saying is because it makes sense. If a business runs itself like it should, it will default the best product, most efficiently produced, at the best price (all things considered). Green Ronin is trying to apply nonsensical SJW attributes to their business in the form of a lame marketing ploy because feelz....

That is their right, I'm just exercising my right to call it out.

This seems obvious. But I'm not going to pretend that it matters to me beyond this discussion because...

I want people, writ-large, to pursue their dreams and find happiness. I want people to understand their self-worth has precisely zero to do with the opinion's of others. No one is guaranteed anything in life. I do believe you're pretty much guaranteed to suffer - but how much depends on the individual, generally. And I stand by my the notion that we're not here to "play it safe." My desire for the rational "eudaimonia" does not include worrying about people's feelings they choose to inflict upon themselves. Nor do I care about useless gestures for the sake of appearances at the expense of good reasoning.

But I won't deny another person(s) right be stupid as long as they don't inflict it on me.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956720You mean "stinks" like not hiring cat piss men?

No, nothing literal or specific.
Like, there's a wide variety of subtle messages we pick up on and interpret as 'unfriendly'... correctly or not. Being TOO friendly can be just as off putting... "Why are these guys so happy to see me?!!!"

QuoteGreen Ronin isn't just "hanging out the welcome sign".

I'm not arguing for or against GR's 'talent show'.
Some contests have restrictions on who can enter, it's usually aimed at giving some group a chance that otherwise could not compete. If there were a contest with an age limit of 12 I wouldn't scream, "AGEISM!" because there is a generally recognized divide in resources and experience there.
Same with dividing boxers along weight and sex... various athletic events. It's saying that one group can't fairly compete against ALL groups... so we set them apart.

So yeah, I think having a contest 'just for fat old white guys' could be seen as sending a 'can't compete' sort of message... but could also be taken as a welcome mat to someone who doesn't think quite the way I do.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough.

Feels aren't reals.  To use teen parlance.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

It implies that there is a barrier.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

Never attribute malice when simple human stupidity is the answer.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956732Ask Carolyn Janice Cherryh or Donna J Barr, who hid their identities as women behind initials to gain acceptance in sci fi and comics.

Those are good examples from that era. Do you think that's true of today Sci-Fi/Fantasy market? I don't. My wife and I are in the business - it's nothing really like that anymore (unless the author purposely is angling for something) You can find the same sorts of "encouragement" from the major publishers looking for "diversity" in fiction these days than they're looking for classic "adventure" stuff. And it's gotten political there too.

Ironically, the exact same thing *is* true of the Romance genre. Male writers sneak around doing exactly this in order to write Romance novels because 98% of the readership is female and they assume all the writers of romance fiction are women.

I'm not saying this to say "poor men" - I know for a reasonable fact, that the male authors that engage in this aren't wringing their hands about it either. But it is curious that this still happens to this overwhelmingly larger dichotomy exists in this genre vs. others. Yet you never hear anyone grouse about it. And it's because of marketing and psychology - not because of overt sexism. The women readership of the romance genre are no more sexist (to me) than the men that consume military-fiction in similar percentages. But when you have people obsessed about those discrepancies and politicize it to soothe their own sense of self-worth, this is what you get.

Quote from: cranebump;956733You're being facetious, of course, but this really misses the point concerning slavery in America. The United States preached "all are created equal," but then allowed slavery to exist, even so. If anything, it should be charged with miss representing their product.

Did you know that the West, in fact, pioneered by America, is the first group of nations that have outlawed slavery?  And that it's still practiced in places like Asia and Africa?

There's a lot of misinformation flying about, and what's even worse is that we have people who believe it, no proof necessary.  But then, that would require doing research and thinking for ourselves, wouldn't it?

Quote from: tenbones;956741But when you have people obsessed about those discrepancies and politicize it to soothe their own sense of self-worth, this is what you get.

/thread

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956732I didn't reply to anyone.

Which was strange, because passive-aggressive doesn't usually suit you.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956732If the jackboot fits, wear it.

Use this one next time...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/155445342/b34735f2ae59ef4419130f55b8ae040b.jpg)
...you're welcome. :D

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956732Ask Carolyn Janice Cherryh or Donna J Barr, who hid their identities as women behind initials to gain acceptance in sci fi and comics.

So you honestly consider the role-playing hobby today to be in the same place that the Science Fiction Literature industry was in over FORTY YEARS ago?
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/155445342/really-really-dude.jpg)
Bullshit me all you want for whatever your reason is, but you can't lie to Indy.

Quote from: cranebump;956733You're being facetious, of course, but this really misses the point concerning slavery in America. The United States preached "all are created equal," but then allowed slavery to exist, even so. If anything, it should be charged with miss representing their product.

"Sins of our ancestors" you said.

My position is no more insane than yours. Mine is simply more logical.

There's no way to know what could have been and you can't fix the past. So don't selectively apply your principle. Go all the way, right to the beginning.

Obviously white people who got to the US after the civil war don't owe anything to blacks. And Eastern Europeans - where do you think the word "slave" comes from - are certainly owed some reparations from middle eastern Muslims. And if youve got ancestors that fought on the civil war on the Union side, that should take off some of reparations you owe to blacks. Now, do Hispanics owe anything to European Americans for the Alamo, or does that land belong to them. And do we count inter Hispanic oppression? And.does that land go back to the Commanche? And do we really know if the Commanche were the first people in that land? Who's got the time machine.

And let's fire up the old time machine and see exactly what was going in in West Africa in the 1500's. Maybe the people that came here as slaves were slavers themselves. Maybe their ancestors were displacing pigmis during the Bantu expansion.

A lot of unanswerable questions, but I'm sure we can do it. Precisely. The first time. Without mistakes.

The process seems to punish people who keep written records I should add. Maybe we need to apply some kind of formula to adjust to people who committed those atrocities before they developed writing? Who gets to write that formula? No room for error, right?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956739Feels aren't reals.

I'd think there's a preferred space where we can acknowledge feelings without letting them overrule all rational concerns. It's not all or nothing.

QuoteIt implies that there is a barrier.

Some friends call before they come over, some knock on the door before they come in, some just waltz right without warning. Some people seem to need permission that others do not. Is being bold, in itself, a sign of talent?

QuoteNever attribute malice when simple human stupidity is the answer.

It's been my experience that cruelty often goes hand-in-hand with willful ignorance.

Quote from: Simlasa;956749Some friends call before they come over, some knock on the door before they come in, some just waltz right without warning. Some people seem to need permission that others do not. Is being bold, in itself, a sign of talent?

I'm not going to try and parse your metaphor, but I can't see in this day and age what barriers could possibly exist for anyone who wants to write and publish an RPG product regardless of gender or race. Assuming an economic status slightly above absolute poverty, it seems to me anyone can develop and write an rpg and market it online.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956764I'm not going to try and parse your metaphor, but I can't see in this day and age what barriers could possibly exist for anyone who wants to write and publish an RPG product regardless of gender or race.

I'm just going on about perceived barriers, about some people wanting a written invitation... that a person might who might enter an essay contest might otherwise NOT be writing essays and sending them out to potential publishers.

Offhand, this seems like something of a PR move, but companies need PR. Conservative-aligned companies can do conservative PR and I don't complain about it, and liberal-aligned companies can do liberal PR.

Quote from: tenbones;956701But they're only asking for women and "non-binary" gendered people. Is this sufficient for the criteria that you're citing to make that difference? I personally can't name any game I've ever purchased based on the gender of the author of that game. I, personally, own quite a bit of stuff from Nicole Lindroos herself - I didn't buy it because she wrote from a specifically female perspective. I bought it because it was good for what I was running.

Seems like a pretty broad brush they're painting these assumptions with.

That's a business decision of theirs - which is aimed at people different than you. I don't know what their assumptions are, since as far as I see, it isn't state in the release. An all-male dance troupe doesn't have to prove that male dancers can objectively dance better than female dancers, or that people will be necessarily more interested in them because they are male. It's their own angle to take, and as long as there are plenty of opportunities for both male and female dancers, then I don't have a problem with it.

Quote from: tenbones;956701And it's Green Ronin to make the call and succeed/fail on it. The promotion of it seems counter-intuitive to being an optimal business decision. But hey - it's their call to make. /shrug. I just want good games.

Yup, that's my take. This particular move might prove profitable to Green Ronin (GR) in the long run. On a cynical level, it might work as PR for social-justice-motivated customers. Conversely, it might be true that there really are talented writers out there who aren't submitting and/or being noticed by other RPG companies, who would be motivated to put in good work for this.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956764I'm not going to try and parse your metaphor, but I can't see in this day and age what barriers could possibly exist for anyone who wants to write and publish an RPG product regardless of gender or race. Assuming an economic status slightly above absolute poverty, it seems to me anyone can develop and write an rpg and market it online.

I'm not an industry insider, and don't claim to know about barriers in RPG publishing. However, even in this day and age, there are plenty of industries which do have clear gender bias in them. For example, in hiring for academic science positions, studies have shown that the resume with a female name is rated lower than the exact same resume with a male name. cf.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

There are claims that the same is true in literary publishing, although I haven't seen as controlled a study of it. Here is one claim, for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/aug/06/catherine-nichols-female-author-male-pseudonym

It could be that RPG publishing is a field where there is no gender bias - but I don't think that it should be assumed.

Quote from: jhkim;956769I'm not an industry insider, and don't claim to know about barriers in RPG publishing. However, even in this day and age, there are plenty of industries which do have clear gender bias in them. For example, in hiring for academic science positions, studies have shown that the resume with a female name is rated lower than the exact same resume with a male name. cf.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

There are claims that the same is true in literary publishing, although I haven't seen as controlled a study of it. Here is one claim, for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/aug/06/catherine-nichols-female-author-male-pseudonym

It could be that RPG publishing is a field where there is no gender bias - but I don't think that it should be assumed.

Except my point was that an RPG doesn't need a publishing house, and no one needs to be "hired."

And those examples are kind of cherrypicking, aren't they? There are numerous occupations that have a gender bias in favour of women. Generally the lines are drawn along societal gender role assumptions, but that cuts both ways.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956694I agree, believe it or not. We can't ignore the sins of our ancestors .

I wonder which of my ancestors I should admit the sins of.  The African?  Or maybe the Polish or the Irish?  Maybe the Native Canadians.  I realize you were jesting (I think), but usually when this comes up, I usually reply with "Mine weren't here or were on the receiving end, so fuck off.  Don't care."

Quote from: jhkim;956769I'm not an industry insider, and don't claim to know about barriers in RPG publishing. However, even in this day and age, there are plenty of industries which do have clear gender bias in them. For example, in hiring for academic science positions, studies have shown that the resume with a female name is rated lower than the exact same resume with a male name. cf.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.full.pdf

"National hiring experiments reveal 2:1 faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track"

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956782http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.full.pdf

"National hiring experiments reveal 2:1 faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track"

I never hear anyone crowing to get women into high steel work or sanitation. Wonder why.

Quote from: Simlasa;956766I'm just going on about perceived barriers, about some people wanting a written invitation... that a person might who might enter an essay contest might otherwise NOT be writing essays and sending them out to potential publishers.

I don't disagree with that reasoning, I guess, though it perplexes me a bit what the advantage would be to court creators who dont have the personal motivation or drive to create on their own. Note I am not one of those opposed to this talent search by Green Ronin, but I do think its about Green Ronin and nothing to do with women  in the hobby at large.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956776Except my point was that an RPG doesn't need a publishing house, and no one needs to be "hired."

And those examples are kind of cherrypicking, aren't they? There are numerous occupations that have a gender bias in favour of women in numerous occupations. Generally the lines are drawn along societal gender role assumptions, but that cuts both ways.

I agree, that self-publishing is a viable route -and it may be a better avenue for many female authors than traditional publishing. However, the same discrimination that is in many publishers may also exist in some backers and readers.

As for cherry picking, I don't think it is. Those are only two examples, of course, but I think they are representative of most gender gap studies that I've seen. For example, nursing is a female dominated profession in some senses, but the studies that I've seen are that male nurses are still paid better than their female counterparts. cf.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nurses-make-thousands-more-salary-female-counterparts

I agree that there are some professions where women make more. I've seen studies that female models generally make more than male models, for example. However, those are far from the norm.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;956784I never hear anyone crowing to get women into high steel work or sanitation. Wonder why.

Not to mention short order cooks.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956742Did you know that the West, in fact, pioneered by America, is the first group of nations that have outlawed slavery?  And that it's still practiced in places like Asia and Africa?

There's a lot of misinformation flying about, and what's even worse is that we have people who believe it, no proof necessary.  But then, that would require doing research and thinking for ourselves, wouldn't it?

I think slavery was outlawed in Britain before it was outlawed in the U.S. (pretty sure? I'll have to dig around to verify) And saying "Well, we don't do it anymore, but others do" is like saying, "Hey, I may be a serial abuser, but I'm still nicer than your incarcerated, serial-killer boyfriend." Any of us can look good standing next to Murder Von Baby-Killer man.  But, you're right--it pays to look into things, including entertaining opposing views. I 'preciate ya, even if I don't see eye to eye.

BIG ASS TANGENT: We can't drive a single sin back to the creation, because we are metaphorically born in sin, and flawed. We trust in the better angels of our nature, but verify through laws and codes. We have warts and scars. No one has all the answers, and that's good. I think back to Jacob Bronowski, writing about what happens when people become certain about anything.* I just know that we made a promise, and haven't always done right by it. Maybe some folks seem a bit overzealous to compensate for those failed promises, sometimes in ways that seem small, or even ridiculous to others. But I cannot fault someone who wants to take action, without real malice, based on what they perceive is true and just, and in line with their beliefs. Certainly, they're doing more than I am when it comes to these things. I don't know how all this will end up, but I have assurance in the substance of things hoped for, trust in evidence of things not yet seen.

We live in crazy times, man. You stick around long enough, though, you find out shit works out. Best comment here, I think, is the one that more or less says, "Bravo for trying, GR. If the product is great, I'll be sure to tune in. It it ain't, no bigs."

*"The Ascent of Man," chapter=Knowledge or Certainty.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956789Not to mention short order cooks.

More proof they've always been sharper than I am.:-)

Quote from: CRKrueger;956789Not to mention short order cooks.

At the restaurant I manage, it's a 50/50 split on cooks, but our cashiers have been overwhelmingly female, and most of the managers are currently men.  Mainly due to the fact that most of the female management went on to other jobs because the restaurant was to stressful, and one got fired for trying to sabotage the place.

Quote from: jhkim;956787I agree that there are some professions where women make more. I've seen studies that female models generally make more than male models, for example. However, those are far from the norm.

Having taught at HS, middle school (aka Hell) and, this year, primary, at six different campuses, over 20 years, I can tell you this: Elementary teachers are overwhelmingly female, and most secondary English departments have more females than males. Just my wee sample there. Not sure it means anything, since pay is standardized by tenure. I'll just add that my best 3 bosses have been women. Again, my experiences only (and I'm not done teaching).

Quote from: jhkim;956787However, the same discrimination that is in many publishers may also exist in some backers and readers.

Maybe? I kind of doubt it, however. Without any evidence my assumption is that readers who care about the gender of a creator would be a tiny, tiny percentage in this day and age, the same type that would boycott Star Wars for having an African American lead (no economic impact whatsoever). I think product quality, premise, presentation, and marketing trumps any concerns regarding prejudice.

QuoteAs for cherry picking, I don't think it is. Those are only two examples, of course, but I think they are representative of most gender gap studies that I've seen. For example, nursing is a female dominated profession in some senses, but the studies that I've seen are that male nurses are still paid better than their female counterparts. cf.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nurses-make-thousands-more-salary-female-counterparts

I agree that there are some professions where women make more. I've seen studies that female models generally make more than male models, for example. However, those are far from the norm.

Wage gap is a separate issue to work opportunities based on gender, though. I don't think conflating those two issues will lead anywhere good, the wage gap is a hot button issue thats inspired hundreds of thousands of blogposts, critical and statistical studies, and youtube flamewars over the last couple of years. And I don't even know what statistics to trust, because they tend to be wildly different depending on the source and conveniently support the position of the person using the study.

Regarding gender gap issues -

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956782http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.full.pdf

"National hiring experiments reveal 2:1 faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track"

Fair enough. Note that this is a more narrow case than general academic hiring, and doesn't contradict the other finding - which the paper itself acknowledges. From the paper you link -

QuotePast studies have used ratings of students' hirability for a range of posts that do not include tenure-track jobs, such as managing laboratories or performing math assignments
for a company. However, hiring tenure-track faculty differs from hiring lower-level staff: it entails selecting among highly accomplished candidates, all of whom have completed Ph.D.s and amassed publications and strong letters of support. Hiring bias may occur when applicants' records are ambiguous, as was true in studies of hiring bias for lower-level staff posts, but such bias may not occur when records are clearly strong, as is the case with tenure-track hiring.

This implies that within science academia, women are rated lower and paid less for lower-level posts, and may have more hurdles to getting their PhD, but once at the point of applying for tenure track position, they are favored. So the barriers to entry are earlier, and women are judged well if they have made it past those barriers.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;956784I never hear anyone crowing to get women into high steel work or sanitation. Wonder why.

I've regularly seen reports about discrimination within construction and other factory work, where apparently sexual harassment is rampant. Here is one sample -

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2014/06/11/report-women-still-face-barriers-in-construction-trades/?utm_term=.f6d7f3e7ded5

Admittedly, I haven't seen similar over sanitation work. :-)

Quote from: cranebump;956794Having taught at HS, middle school (aka Hell) and, this year, primary, at six different campuses, over 20 years, I can tell you this: Elementary teachers are overwhelmingly female, and most secondary English departments have more females than males. Just my wee sample there. Not sure it means anything, since pay is standardized by tenure. I'll just add that my best 3 bosses have been women. Again, my experiences only (and I'm not done teaching).

I don't think we're disagreeing. (Also, kudos to you for teaching. I taught high school for a time, and am now in educational technology.) Both primary teaching and nursing are female dominated in that most people in the profession are women. However, I have not seen evidence that men in those professions are judged worse or are given less pay. For nursing, it seems rather that men are paid more.

OK, this is totally off-topic, but it is bugging me.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956742Did you know that the West, in fact, pioneered by America, is the first group of nations that have outlawed slavery?  And that it's still practiced in places like Asia and Africa?

There's a lot of misinformation flying about, and what's even worse is that we have people who believe it, no proof necessary.  But then, that would require doing research and thinking for ourselves, wouldn't it?

I know that in Korea, emancipation began in 1775, and in 1801 nearly all government slaves were freed, although full abolition was not until 1886 - 1891. The origins of the abolition movement there have nothing to do with abolition in the West.

In the West, the pioneer in modern abolition was Haiti, which completely outlawed slavery as part of their war for independence 1791 to 1804. That thoroughly shook all of the colonial powers with its success. Britain outlawed the slave trade in 1807, and outlawed slavery in 1833 - long before the U.S.

I'd suggest doing a little research yourself.

Quote from: jhkim;956797I don't think we're disagreeing. (Also, kudos to you for teaching. I taught high school for a time, and am now in educational technology.) Both primary teaching and nursing are female dominated in that most people in the profession are women. However, I have not seen evidence that men in those professions are judged worse or are given less pay. For nursing, it seems rather that men are paid more.

You're correct. We're not disagreeing. And I did not intend my post as anything more than an observation brought on by the discussion. Sorry If it seemed anything other than that.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956795Maybe? I kind of doubt it, however. Without any evidence my assumption is that readers who care about the gender of a creator would be a tiny, tiny percentage in this day and age, the same type that would boycott Star Wars for having an African American lead (no economic impact whatsoever). I think product quality, premise, presentation, and marketing trumps any concerns regarding prejudice.

There is a sizeable percentage of people for whom gender and race are part of subtle prejudice - as opposed to an outright political stance. The finding of many studies is that people who claim to be impartial to men and women nevertheless have different responses on average to the exact same resume or work if there is a man's or woman's name attached. In some cases, this favors women - such as apparently in romance novels where male authors are more successful using a female pen name. But in most of the studies that I've seen, it favors men.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956795Wage gap is a separate issue to work opportunities based on gender, though. I don't think conflating those two issues will lead anywhere good, the wage gap is a hot button issue thats inspired hundreds of thousands of blogposts, critical and statistical studies, and youtube flamewars over the last couple of years. And I don't even know what statistics to trust, because they tend to be wildly different depending on the source and conveniently support the position of the person using the study.

I don't think it is that easy to separate them, though. Getting paid is a crucial part of work, and if you ignore it, then you're overlooking a key part of the picture. For example, say there is an industry where women were 1.5x more likely to get hired, but at average 25% less pay than men. By ignoring pay, you'd hold that industry up as a shining example of progress.

Quote from: jhkim;956797Regarding gender gap issues -


Fair enough. Note that this is a more narrow case than general academic hiring, and doesn't contradict the other finding - which the paper itself acknowledges. From the paper you link -


This implies that within science academia, women are rated lower and paid less for lower-level posts, and may have more hurdles to getting their PhD, but once at the point of applying for tenure track position, they are favored. So the barriers to entry are earlier, and women are judged well if they have made it past those barriers.

I think it depends on which narrative you choose to believe. And results can be interpreted many different ways.

Quote from: jhkim;956800There is a sizeable percentage of people for whom gender and race are part of subtle prejudice - as opposed to an outright political stance. The finding of many studies is that people who claim to be impartial to men and women nevertheless have different responses on average to the exact same resume or work if there is a man's or woman's name attached. In some cases, this favors women - such as apparently in romance novels where male authors are more successful using a female pen name. But in most of the studies that I've seen, it favors men.

Okay, but even assuming that's true, how much does it practically create a barrier of entry for women to create and promote a gaming product? Meaning, I know there are studies that show slight gender biases in many people, but has this been shown to have a demonstrable effect on the consumption of media?

Its contended that there is a large female audience for RPGs that is untapped simply because women aren't creating as many products as men. If that is the point of this Talent Search, then surely any bias actually works in their favour? Apparently the idea is that there are tons of women who really want to be roleplaying, but wont because of the omnipresence of male creators.

QuoteI don't think it is that easy to separate them, though. Getting paid is a crucial part of work, and if you ignore it, then you're overlooking a key part of the picture. For example, say there is an industry where women were 1.5x more likely to get hired, but at average 25% less pay than men. By ignoring pay, you'd hold that industry up as a shining example of progress.

If the conversation was more general, I could see your point. But the reaction here is to a talent contest to ostensibly hire women creators, with the implication that will address a gender imbalance. I doubt, of course, that a press release by Green Ronin simply stating "hey, we plan to pay our female employees equal wages to male employees" would be as effective an advertising campaign. But I think that despite any connections that might be made, that the opportunity for work is distinct enough from the wage gap that it can at least be addressed on its own, or that addressing one by implication will eventually effect the other.

Quote from: jhkim;956800I don't think it is that easy to separate them, though. Getting paid is a crucial part of work, and if you ignore it, then you're overlooking a key part of the picture. For example, say there is an industry where women were 1.5x more likely to get hired, but at average 25% less pay than men. By ignoring pay, you'd hold that industry up as a shining example of progress.

For an example of narratives-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRgQJFbaLLo&t=9s

5:23 is the big reveal, and I won't spoil it because it's

Spoiler

hilarious

, but note that the rest of the video

Spoiler

is the two participants talking about the wage gap, when their big example was a black woman earning 20k a year more than a white man.

Yes, it's just one example. But it's there. And the denial is astounding.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956745So you honestly consider the role-playing hobby today to be in the same place that the Science Fiction Literature industry was in over FORTY YEARS ago?

Bullshit me all you want for whatever your reason is, but you can't lie to Indy.

I worked briefly with Donna Barr many a year ago and have never heard of her "hiding" her identity. She used to be, and may still be a major con presence so its pretty hard to hide that. Ive never heard of her using her initials only. If she did it must have been really early and/or brief. Or someones spindoctoring what happened.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956805Yes, it's just one example.

Which unfortunately, kind of makes it meaningless.

Spoiler

Except as an example of how a minority woman can still feel this vast sense of entitlement and persecution complex after finding out her white male peer makes 20k less than her for the same job

.

There is no wage gap.  There is an EARNINGS gap.  It's looking at the total earnings for a life time.  And women do earn less, but there are major factors.  Namely marriage, women tend to work less when they get married, whether or not they have children, for example.

/off topic.

This advert is still running afoul of the Title VII of the Civil Right Act of 1964.

Quote from: Simlasa;956685This is a point I often raise when this stuff comes up. There are plenty of female-dominated hobbies, some of them I participate in. I've never seen any women wringing their hands over how to get more men involved. Sometimes I suspect that a portion of this energy is lonely maladroids looking for 'dates'.

That would be the 'white knights' many people talk about. I'm sure there are some of those out there. I prefer old-fashioned knights. :)

There are also some people who hate any talk about what is 'typical' for men or women. As if the moment someone realizes that they are atypical in some way, then that makes them less worthy or something. I am not anywhere near the norm in some ways, so I never saw what the problem was with being 'atypical' or against the run of the mill*.

*For instance, I have always known that men tend to fall for slightly younger women, while women tend to fall for slightly older men, statistically speaking. I have no problem accepting that this general observation is true, even though I myself have sometimes had a tendency to fall for women who were a couple of years older, for whatever reason.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956816This advert is still running afoul of the Title VII of the Civil Right Act of 1964.

You still haven't addressed if Green Ronin even qualifies according to the definition.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956823You still haven't addressed if Green Ronin even qualifies according to the definition.

Yes, they do as per Washington state (http://greenronin.com/about-green-ronin-publishing/).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956826Yes, they do as per Washington state (http://greenronin.com/about-green-ronin-publishing/).

I see no evidence on that page that those are all full time staff who have worked for 20 weeks out of the year.
For all we know, the majority are freelance workers.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956826Yes, they do as per Washington state (http://greenronin.com/about-green-ronin-publishing/).

Not necessarily. It wholly depends on how Green Ronin handles their business. I would hazard a guess that the folks they 'hire' are independent contractors (freelancers).

When a company hires an independent contractor, they do not have to honor most federal or state guidelines. FLSA, FICA, FUTA, COBRA, protections under the EEOC, workman's comp and other miscellaneous requirements goes out the window, as do other standard employee protections. I am unsure if the bona fide occupational qualification applies, however.

I've owned three businesses and both employed and contracted a lot of folks over time, but I've never ran into a situation where I specifically set out to hire a contractor with a protected characteristic exception. Spinachcat used to be a headhunter, and should be able to share some additional insight.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956830I see no evidence on that page that those are all full time staff who have worked for 20 weeks out of the year.
For all we know, the majority are freelance workers.

OK, now I know you're deliberately trolling.  Forget it.  I've proven my point, what they are doing is a federal crime.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;956831Not necessarily. It wholly depends on how Green Ronin handles their business. I would hazard a guess that the folks they 'hire' are independent contractors (freelancers).

When a company hires an independent contractor, they do not have to honor most federal or state guidelines. FLSA, FICA, FUTA, COBRA, protections under the EEOC, workman's comp and other miscellaneous requirements goes out the window, as do other standard employee protections. I am unsure if the bona fide occupational qualification applies, however.

I've owned three businesses and both employed and contracted a lot of folks over time, but I've never ran into a situation where I specifically set out to hire a contractor with a protected characteristic exception. Spinachcat used to be a headhunter, and should be able to share some additional insight.

Did you take photos and use them as proof you have people currently working for you?  Did you name them and their positions, most of which require years of work to get within the company, and then let them go work for another, potentially rival company?

I don't think so.  You don't take photos of freelancers, list their names and positions, and post it on your 'About the Company' page of your website.  Beyond being tacky and dishonest (Oh, them?  They don't work here anymore.) it can cause issues for future employment, especially for contractors, which can (not saying it does) open up for legal action.  Especially if it prevents people from working.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956832OK, now I know you're deliberately trolling.

Fuck man, I deliberately troll here all the time. When I do it I'm anything but subtle. This is just me poking logical holes in your declarations.


 

QuoteForget it.  I've proven my point,

To who? Everybody raise your hands if Brady has proven anything to you.

Quotewhat they are doing is a federal crime.

You just claimed they were breaking the law according to Washington State. Do you not know what the definition of a Federal Crime is?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956833Did you take photos and use them as proof you have people currently working for you?  Did you name them and their positions, most of which require years of work to get within the company, and then let them go work for another, potentially rival company?

Sure, that would be standard for the comic book industry. I'm certain many other industries where the majority of work is done by freelance contractors. But at this point you're just making assumptions.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956816There is no wage gap.  There is an EARNINGS gap.  It's looking at the total earnings for a life time.  And women do earn less, but there are major factors.  Namely marriage, women tend to work less when they get married, whether or not they have children, for example.

Of course. It's been known since Warren Farrell investigated the issue in 1990 something. But the idea won't die because of stuff like the... original topic! That if there's a lack of something ("representation" and pay usually), it must be sexism. The notion that women's choices just might have something to do with it has only recently been breaking into the mainstream conciousness. (Along with the rebuttals, I'm sure someone will make them here.)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956832OK, now I know you're deliberately trolling.  Forget it.  I've proven my point, what they are doing is a federal crime.

No, I work in Washington State. We have a big issue with permatemp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp) jobs doing just that. It's shitty, but challenging the system usually means getting tossed out on your ass.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956704I've gamed with women who were just as combat/action oriented as the guys. I've gamed with women who were into the talkiy rpg stuff more than fighting. It's almost like... women aren't some kind of hive mind and are instead, individuals. :)

Yes, and I'm sure you've gamed with women who were taller than most men, too. Does that in any way change the fact that most women are shorter than most men? Strong general tendencies unquestionably exist.

So sure, if you are for some reason looking for someone to provide a feminine perspective on something, you can search look high and low for a man who is one of the small minority of men who have a mostly feminine perspective. Or you can pick a woman at random and gamble that she's not one of the small minority of women who have a mostly masculine perspective. Which one would you expect to take less time and effort?



On another note, since I have already established myself as being (kinda, sorta, mostly) on Team Gender Quota here, I would like to take a moment to double down on my contrariness and complain about things said by that team also:

Quote from: cranebump;956679I believe the average white person is completely in the dark concerning the experiences of minorities, even vicariously, through reading about such experiences, and, as such, cannot understand exactly the issues facing those unlike them. Further, I believe we too easily forgive the crimes of our ancestors because, "It wasn't me."

Remember how I said a few pages ago that MRAs turn me off men's rights activism? Well, this is what turns me off progressivism - this endless, pointless, soul-crushing guilt-flinging. Guess what, it wasn't, in point of fact, me - and for that matter, I'm not going to sit here in the midst of all the comforts of high technology and enlightened social attitudes and piously condemn the people who came before me for acting in accordance with the world they were born into. As for my understanding, it's perfectly adequate, thank you - certainly it is no worse than the understanding of all those feminists who tell me with absolute certainty how wonderful my life is and how I've been handed everything on a silver platter and how I couldn't possibly understand what it feels like to not have everything always go my way.

The difference between me and some screeching alt-righter is that I refuse to be so petty as to actively resist doing the right thing just because the people who are the most gung-ho about doing it all insist on shitting on me. So yeah, bring on the progressiveness - I may bitch endlessly about the form of it, but I won't resist the substance of it. You want to add gender and racial hiring quotas to my profession? Go ahead, I'm sure I'll still get by. You want to raise my taxes to pay for social programs? I am happy to be of service. I can't recall, off the top of my head, any actual liberal policy that I am not at least cautiously in favour of.

So yeah, I'll do the right thing when called upon. But since I am in fact doing the right thing, you are doing the wrong thing by constantly insulting me.

Quote from: Simlasa;956736No, nothing literal or specific.
Like, there's a wide variety of subtle messages we pick up on and interpret as 'unfriendly'... correctly or not. Being TOO friendly can be just as off putting... "Why are these guys so happy to see me?!!!"

Yeah, about that argument, which tends to crop up... if something is too "subtle" to adequately describe or quantify, then it serves no purpose to talk about it. The moment you can present to me a code of behaviour that is functional in a real life context and is backed by either sufficiently strong consensus or a legitimate authority, then I strongly invite you to do so so that I can proceed to follow it. I will do so whether I agree with it or not - I am not unreasonable.

But the whole "microaggressions," "invisible ropes" rhetoric? That carries no meaningful information except "every single thing you do is wrong and you're too stupid to even realise it." I can do nothing productive in reaction to that information except remove myself from all human interaction. That infringes on my right to, well, exist, and is therefore not an acceptable code of behaviour.

Surprisingly or not, Baeraad and me are in agreement. Except I've done wrong things to hurt someone for crossing certain lines.

Quote from: Trond;956820That would be the 'white knights' many people talk about. I'm sure there are some of those out there. I prefer old-fashioned knights. :)

There are also some people who hate any talk about what is 'typical' for men or women. As if the moment someone realizes that they are atypical in some way, then that makes them less worthy or something. I am not anywhere near the norm in some ways, so I never saw what the problem was with being 'atypical' or against the run of the mill*.

*For instance, I have always known that men tend to fall for slightly younger women, while women tend to fall for slightly older men, statistically speaking. I have no problem accepting that this general observation is true, even though I myself have sometimes had a tendency to fall for women who were a couple of years older, for whatever reason.

Also, this, it's always funny to watch people assuming that pointing out their behavior is atypical is some kind of hidden criticism (usually followed by them trying to deny the very notion of "typical behaviour":D)!

As I've mentioned previously, I am an ex-headhunter. I've never heard of any federal law that allows small businesses to legally discriminate against contractors when advertising for positions. If that existed, you would see such ads all over the place. But as others have mentioned, small business employees don't have the same protections once hired.

Here's what the EEOC says about discrimination in job postings:
https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/

Here's what Monster.com tells employers about job postings:
https://hiring.monster.com/hr/hr-best-practices/monster-training/security-center/avoid-discrimination-in-job-postings.aspx

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956644Watching reactionary misogynists shit themselves is comedy gold.

According to this article, 70% of your "reactionary misogynists" are...women.
https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://forbes.com/sites/datafreaks/2014/10/16/gender-quotas-in-hiring-drive-away-both-women-and-men/&refURL=&referrer=

Quote from: cranebump;956603ALL LIVES MATTER, DAMNIT!

That was the goal of the Civil Rights Movement. It was to end divisiveness and see all humans as equal.

The success of that movement was amazing. One of the greatest achievements in human history.

The success of modern identity politics is....nothing but division, failure and acrimony.

Unless, of course, you consider keeping Hillary out of the White House to be a grand success of identity politics! :eek:

Quote from: CRKrueger;956629SJWs are trying to achieve Justice by taking the path and using the tools of Injustice.  They are trying to eliminate discrimination by discriminating.  Surely intelligent people can see this might not go so well.

Apparently not.

Quote from: Baeraad;956672"We're screeching and howling for a better tomorrow!"

Twitter's next ad campaign!!

Quote from: Lynn;956673It does accomplish something. Creating this situation causes buzz on the internet for a game that otherwise will probably not distinguish itself from others....They can virtue-signal and get buzz at the same time, and pull back in the Blue Rose crowd, too.

I think you nailed it.

Controversy as free marketing.

Quote from: Simlasa;956685There are plenty of female-dominated hobbies, some of them I participate in. I've never seen any women wringing their hands over how to get more men involved. Sometimes I suspect that a portion of this energy is lonely maladroids looking for 'dates'.

The hand wringing reeks of "if I white knight enough, maybe she'll touch my schlong".

The laugh is many female dominated hobbies have huge successful businesses, like the craft hobby. Almost every town has a craft store (or three) and those businesses could increase their profits if they somehow got more males into crafting. But those businesses instead just focus on their core audience.

BTW, I've heard from a few female gamers who love RPGs as a getaway from other women. Just like some men like the non-sexual company of women, some women like the non-sexual company of men. They're not a majority to be sure.

Quote from: jhkim;956696There are a lot of jobs that call for certain attributes that are gender-specific or gender-biased.

The EEOC has the bona fide occupational qualification. It is limited for exactly those kinds of jobs.  

Extremely important for making Einstein / MLK porn when you want to achieve that historical resonance!

Quote from: Ashakyre;956746Who's got the time machine.

Doc Brown and Marty McFly!!

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956834You just claimed they were breaking the law according to Washington State. Do you not know what the definition of a Federal Crime is?

Actually, just realized you probably don't, since you're Canadian. And as such, this isn't an issue that affects you in the slightest....so, I think Black Vulmea was right in this case.

Quote from: Baeraad;956851But the whole "microaggressions," "invisible ropes" rhetoric? That carries no meaningful information except "every single thing you do is wrong and you're too stupid to even realise it."

I wasn't talking about 'microaggressions' actually... just a need, by some people, for more formal invitations to join in.

I think that this sort of thing is necessary to visibly encourage and welcome any women out there (who still rightly believe that this hobby is traditionally a mostly boy's only club) to be active participants. I think that the move is a corny, cynical marketing ploy, though, based on the social media battles it has intensified (saw a comment on Facebook from a gal desperate to start punching "those Nazis" who are against Green Ronin's move).

I think that things are getting better, but I despise the way that discourse works these days. So many assumptions of bad faith by both sides of the debate. Including myself, I admit, for only thinking that a company is doing this as much for inclusivity as for marketing. This book will sell more because of both factors, I guarantee it.

Quote from: Baeraad;956851Remember how I said a few pages ago that MRAs turn me off men's rights activism? Well, this is what turns me off progressivism - this endless, pointless, soul-crushing guilt-flinging. Guess what, it wasn't, in point of fact, me - and for that matter, I'm not going to sit here in the midst of all the comforts of high technology and enlightened social attitudes and piously condemn the people who came before me for acting in accordance with the world they were born into. As for my understanding, it's perfectly adequate, thank you - certainly it is no worse than the understanding of all those feminists who tell me with absolute certainty how wonderful my life is and how I've been handed everything on a silver platter and how I couldn't possibly understand what it feels like to not have everything always go my way.

So yeah, I'll do the right thing when called upon. But since I am in fact doing the right thing, you are doing the wrong thing by constantly insulting me.

Acknowledging what is true isn't accepting an insult, it's just acknowledging the facts. White men have fewer barriers than women or minority men. This doesn't mean that you personally have had it easy. It means you could have had it a whole lot harder. That's not a condemnation. That's the truth. I still get pissy about the word "privilege," but I can also acknowledge that it exists, within its context. I can also accept that I've been born with advantages, while knowing that this doesn't diminish any personal accomplishments I might have, because I still had to get out there and do my job, so to speak. I can also honestly say that I have done my utmost to treat everyone I've come into contact with the same, regardless of their background. As I am a public school teacher, and one who has worked at minority-majority schools my entire career, fairness has always been important to me. It would have been anyway, but it became even more important, if only to show those who may not have been dealt with justly that there are more people willing to judge them based on what they do, how hard they work, rather than factors that are not under their control. That's the contribution I am able to make, on a near-daily basis. I think most people are like that, and do that--what they are able, which includes not being a barrier. But I don't think we've quite fixed some of our systemic issues. And I do think there are some reactionaries on the other side of the issue, as well.

FYI, my initial comment was directed at folks who believe no such "privilege" exists, when it obviously does. The best illustration of the point, to me, is when writer Ta-Nehisi Coates said:

"To be president, [Obama] had to be scholarly, intelligent, president of the Harvard Law Review, the product of some of our greatest educational institutions, capable of talking to two different worlds ... Donald Trump had to be rich and white. That was it. That’s the difference."

When you consider Clinton's qualifications versus Trump's, you could also apply the same argument, albeit to a much lesser extent, considering the baggage Clinton took on, some of it her own, some of it whipped up by extremists.

What Obama and Trump have in common is money.

Privilege based on race or gender is meaningless in the face of class privilege.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956849Of course. It's been known since Warren Farrell investigated the issue in 1990 something. But the idea won't die because of stuff like the... original topic! That if there's a lack of something ("representation" and pay usually), it must be sexism. The notion that women's choices just might have something to do with it has only recently been breaking into the mainstream conciousness. (Along with the rebuttals, I'm sure someone will make them here.)

Well, you know, if women didn't take the time off to propagate the species, none of us would be here. And the fact that a woman may want to marry and have children has cropped up among reasons some execs won't hire women for high level positions, because, "They'll just run off and get pregnant." I would imagine that they say they shouldn't be forced to give up one thing for another due to biology. Men face no such choice or equivalency.

Quote from: Spinachcat;956859That was the goal of the Civil Rights Movement. It was to end divisiveness and see all humans as equal. The success of that movement was amazing. One of the greatest achievements in human history.  The success of modern identity politics is....nothing but division, failure and acrimony. Unless, of course, you consider keeping Hillary out of the White House to be a grand success of identity politics! :eek:

I don't think the civil rights movement is over. And it was obviously closer to a "Black Lives Matter" movement than "All Lives Matter," as this tract from a well-known speech clearly indicates:

"One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself in exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked insufficient funds.

And Clinton won the popular vote, despite her baggage, which may be a better indicator of where we're headed than the fact that some pissed off rust belt folks voted for The Bloviator Supreme.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956875What Obama and Trump have in common is money.

Privilege based on race or gender is meaningless in the face of class privilege.

Trump is clearly the prime example of class privilege, having been born into it, never strayed from it, traffics in it, and is completely unable to understand the lives of those who don't. Other than having some money, these two people couldn't be more different.

Quote from: cranebump;956879Trump is clearly the prime example of class privilege, having been born into it, never strayed from it, traffics in it, and is completely unable to understand the lives of those who don't. Other than having some money, these two people couldn't be more different.

In personality, goals, and intelligence? Sure, they are night and day. Clinton is actually closer to Trump than Obama when it comes down to it.

EDIT: Okay, my fault for being drawn in, but this isn't the forum for politics. Lets get back to the misogynistic whinging.

Quote from: cranebump;956877Well, you know, if women didn't take the time off to propagate the species, none of us would be here. And the fact that a woman may want to marry and have children has cropped up among reasons some execs won't hire women for high level positions, because, "They'll just run off and get pregnant." I would imagine that they say they shouldn't be forced to give up one thing for another due to biology. Men face no such choice or equivalency.

I disagree.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2015/04/02/dont-be-a-bachelor-why-married-men-work-harder-and-smarter-and-make-more-money/?utm_term=.a6b528583e0c

Having a family means providing for that family. Traditionally, men have sacrificed their lives to work in order to provide for their families. That does come with a huge tradeoff as very few of us are privileged to follow our dreams and earn enough money to pay the bills.

Quote from: cranebump;956877Well, you know, if women didn't take the time off to propagate the species, none of us would be here. And the fact that a woman may want to marry and have children has cropped up among reasons some execs won't hire women for high level positions, because, "They'll just run off and get pregnant." I would imagine that they say they shouldn't be forced to give up one thing for another due to biology. Men face no such choice or equivalency.

That's preposterous. Men face many such choices daily. For example, consent to sex is consent to reproduce with equivalent responsibility, whereas with women it is not. They hold all the reproductive cards legally and men must make a choice as to whether it is worth it. I also find it a bit of bigotry of low expectations here, suggesting that women are required to make more compromises than men. NO ONE can have it all. How many men lament the lack of relationship with their children when they find they spent their childhood working to support their family. This is not a gendered choice as such, as everyone must compromise some of their goals to achieve others. I have trouble believing that if women are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they must have a leg up to compete. Seems a strange point of view to me.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956804Okay, but even assuming that's true, how much does it practically create a barrier of entry for women to create and promote a gaming product? Meaning, I know there are studies that show slight gender biases in many people, but has this been shown to have a demonstrable effect on the consumption of media?

Its contended that there is a large female audience for RPGs that is untapped simply because women aren't creating as many products as men. If that is the point of this Talent Search, then surely any bias actually works in their favour? Apparently the idea is that there are tons of women who really want to be roleplaying, but wont because of the omnipresence of male creators.

I don't know of any studies of perceived gender on media consumption either way. Anecdotally, there are the recommendations that male romance authors use female pen names, or how Joanne Rowling was encouraged to use initials rather than her name. You're assuming the point of GR's talent search is an assumption of "tons of women" - but I don't see that stated in the press release. Maybe they think there are only a few women who are put off by male dominance in role-playing, but that it's still worth trying to reach them in this way.

What sort of numbers are we imagining here? Lacking data, I'm not sure what to expect, but I'll toss out my own guesses. In romance novels, I suspect there is at least a 10% effect on readership based on the perceived gender of the author (i.e. a male author on average would have 10% higher sales or more if using a female pen name). In RPGs, I think it is significantly less - under 5%, but possibly in the 2-4% range.

Regarding the gender gap in general:

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956802I think it depends on which narrative you choose to believe. And results can be interpreted many different ways.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956816There is no wage gap.  There is an EARNINGS gap.  It's looking at the total earnings for a life time.  And women do earn less, but there are major factors.  Namely marriage, women tend to work less when they get married, whether or not they have children, for example.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956849Of course. It's been known since Warren Farrell investigated the issue in 1990 something. But the idea won't die because of stuff like the... original topic! That if there's a lack of something ("representation" and pay usually), it must be sexism. The notion that women's choices just might have something to do with it has only recently been breaking into the mainstream conciousness. (Along with the rebuttals, I'm sure someone will make them here.)

Personally, while I have my unconscious biases, I choose to believe based on what the evidence shows - not based on what my politics are. People who think the overall earnings difference must be completely sexism are foolish, but so are people who think that it cannot reflect any sexism. Sexism is a reasonable hypothesis that should be investigated, and many studies have found clear examples within certain fields, and not in others.

As for taking time off when married - much of that is an economic decision. Very often, a wife makes less money than her husband, and takes more time off. However, if a woman makes more money than her husband, then it is much more likely that the husband will take time off for child care or otherwise. Also, workplaces and regulations are often different for maternity and paternity leave. In short, these choices aren't necessarily purely genetic qualities of being a man or woman, but can be influenced by social and economic factors like sexism. There could be purely genetic qualities leading to women taking more time off, but it shouldn't be assumed.

Quote from: cranebump;956874Acknowledging what is true isn't accepting an insult, it's just acknowledging the facts. White men have fewer barriers than women or minority men. This doesn't mean that you personally have had it easy. It means you could have had it a whole lot harder. That's not a condemnation. That's the truth. I still get pissy about the word "privilege," but I can also acknowledge that it exists, within its context.

That said, you frame the context and define terms, and yet those same terms have implied meanings and relevance beyond that context. They are also suggestive of corrective measures based on social norms.

What amounts as an advantage depends on exactly how you define each individual instance and type of advantage, and perhaps more importantly, what you don't. Just like the earlier point someone made of equal pay vs lifetime earnings potential.

Once you drill down into specific sub-groups or individuals, things start to fly apart. But here's the thing. Even if I fall entirely within the scope of your definition, I still have my individual rights, and also personal 'properties' which grant protected status under the law (gender, national origin, etc). And even if you've narrowed the scope of your definition and I happen to fall within the range of 'privilege' it is no protection against pursuing my rights to life, liberty and happiness right into a horrible situation of my own devising, or protection against some random event or encounter or disability.

I don't recognize or accept labels that aren't clearly defined and qualified. "White Privilege" is a social narrative construct and intentionally left without clear, specific definitions of scope, because it is more useful that way to some who use the term to their advantage.

Quote from: tenbones;956741Those are good examples from that era. Do you think that's true of today Sci-Fi/Fantasy market?

Quote from: CRKrueger;956745So you honestly consider the role-playing hobby today to be in the same place that the Science Fiction Literature industry was in over FORTY YEARS ago?

As others in this thread noted, did you not see the dumb fuckers oozing out of the storm drains in the run up to and aftermath of the last US election?

Misogyny is alive and well and if it's not EXACTLY THE SAME as it was FORTY YEARS AGO, it's still just as fucking lame as it ever was.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956745...you're welcome.

Mean Green, that is A Thing of Beauty. Consider it stoled.

Quote from: jhkim;956910As for taking time off when married - much of that is an economic decision. Very often, a wife makes less money than her husband, and takes more time off. However, if a woman makes more money than her husband, then it is much more likely that the husband will take time off for child care or otherwise. Also, workplaces and regulations are often different for maternity and paternity leave. In short, these choices aren't necessarily purely genetic qualities of being a man or woman, but can be influenced by social and economic factors like sexism. There could be purely genetic qualities leading to women taking more time off, but it shouldn't be assumed.

And yet. Whenever I hear the wage gap mentioned by politicans or in the media, it's always portrayed as women getting paid less because all men are sexist assholes.

I mean, for there to be such a widespread, universal wage gap, it must mean that women rarely work in any kind of self-employment, that nearly all bosses are men, and that all of those men are making a conscious choice to pay women less, per hour or per salary.

The truth is that women in self-employment earn less as well. I'm sure someone could chalk it up to "internalized misogyny", but I think the narrative breaks down at that point. Big companies would get assreamed by their competitors if it could be brought to light that they discriminate pay based on sex. And so on.
I think the tiny sliver of the pay gap that can't be explained by women's choices can be explained by sexism. And that can be addressed on the individual level. Any affirmative action style programs aren't going to do diddly bupkus.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956931As others in this thread noted, did you not see the dumb fuckers oozing out of the storm drains in the run up to and aftermath of the last US election?

Misogyny is alive and well and if it's not EXACTLY THE SAME as it was FORTY YEARS AGO, it's still just as fucking lame as it ever was.

I don't think anyone is claiming that misogyny doesn't exist. I'm certainly not. Right it's not the same, using the examples you cited, in the exact same profession as it pertains to women and people of color, and minorities as forty-years ago. Go to any big Sci-Fi publishing house website, and most of the time you'll see them actively recruiting for "diversity" in sci-fi and fantasy. I'm not making a case for whether it's good or bad - but it certainly isn't like 40-years ago in the publishing world.

Right now approximately 47% of the sci-fi/fantasy and speculative-fiction books published and sent to various magazines/webzines are from women (and this was from figures 3 years ago) compared to the paltry 14% from 1950. Now where you *will* see a discrepancy is not from the publishers - but from reviewers. But this in no way is representative of the publishing industry. Mind you - this has *zero* to do with sales. *Zero* to do with tastes in the consuming public. Almost half of the fiction books in our gaming genre-wheelhouse are by women. But at what point does the oppression-narrative end? When do individual tastes account for anything? When does marketing overtake the political need for the narrative to even exist? The answer is: never. Because too many people begin to benefit from the "movement" that has outlasted its real need. But hey, let's not let that stop us.

Of course racism/misogyny/general assholish behavior lame when it shows up. But I'm saying sometimes it's worth questioning the narrative and examine what is really going on.

As for the fuckers oozing out of stormdrain? I find them commensurate to the non-stop bombardment of regressive SJW narratives flooding social-media free of any logic or discussion - and find them equally cognitively dissonant and/or willfully ignorant. It is the combination of the dynamic between both these tribes of dolts that cause this election to go the way it did. With a an ass-ton of pandering from the media and political self-serving greed of these two parties here that essentially shot themselves in the head to prove a point.

heh, the results... are absurdly laughable.

Maybe I have turned cynical, but I don't really see the horror in this situation. If I wanted to write sugar sweet romances it probably wouldn't hurt sales if I used a female pseudonym.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956861Actually, just realized you probably don't, since you're Canadian. And as such, this isn't an issue that affects you in the slightest....so, I think Black Vulmea was right in this case.

So Brady's trying to pass off things he's read on the internet as first hand, authoritative declarations of fact?  That's never happened before, has it?!

I roll to disbelieve!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956932And yet. Whenever I hear the wage gap mentioned by politicans or in the media, it's always portrayed as women getting paid less because all men are sexist assholes.

I mean, for there to be such a widespread, universal wage gap, it must mean that women rarely work in any kind of self-employment, that nearly all bosses are men, and that all of those men are making a conscious choice to pay women less, per hour or per salary.

The truth is that women in self-employment earn less as well. I'm sure someone could chalk it up to "internalized misogyny", but I think the narrative breaks down at that point. Big companies would get assreamed by their competitors if it could be brought to light that they discriminate pay based on sex. And so on.
I think the tiny sliver of the pay gap that can't be explained by women's choices can be explained by sexism. And that can be addressed on the individual level. Any affirmative action style programs aren't going to do diddly bupkus.

When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956954When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.

Actually, it's 2% according to the last known statistics.

You know what I want?  Some definitive proof that somewhere, women are being held back from...  Well, anything, here in the West.  I can't seem to find one legal right they don't have, and yet, they claim to be oppressed.  'Oppressed' to the point where ads like this are considered effectively mandatory no matter the legalities involved.

There has to be something, a paper trail (electronic or otherwise) we can follow.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956963Actually, it's 2% according to the last known statistics.

I must have been looking at old stats.  (They might have been 2011 or 2012.)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956832OK, now I know you're deliberately trolling.  Forget it.  I've proven my point, what they are doing is a federal crime.

Stop being such a pussy and let GR make their damn game.

Quote from: tenbones;956941Right now approximately 47% of the sci-fi/fantasy and speculative-fiction books published and sent to various magazines/webzines are from women (and this was from figures 3 years ago) compared to the paltry 14% from 1950. Now where you *will* see a discrepancy is not from the publishers - but from reviewers. But this in no way is representative of the publishing industry. Mind you - this has *zero* to do with sales. *Zero* to do with tastes in the consuming public. Almost half of the fiction books in our gaming genre-wheelhouse are by women. But at what point does the oppression-narrative end? When do individual tastes account for anything? When does marketing overtake the political need for the narrative to even exist? The answer is: never. Because too many people begin to benefit from the "movement" that has outlasted its real need. But hey, let's not let that stop us.

I couldn't find the source of your numbers here from search. Do you have a link or remember a name that this comes from?

In particular, I think it's useful to see more than just participation numbers, because those aren't definitive. For example, nursing is 90% female, but that doesn't prove that it is full of man-hating reverse sexism. In fact, studies suggest that male nurses are paid more than their female counterparts. In science fiction there may be perfect unbiased equality, but it isn't proven solely by 47% participation.

Quote from: tenbones;956941Of course racism/misogyny/general assholish behavior lame when it shows up. But I'm saying sometimes it's worth questioning the narrative and examine what is really going on.

Absolutely. It's worth questioning both the narrative of "it's all sexism" and it's worth questioning the narrative of "there is no sexism". Sadly, a lot of people take the attitude of "Well, it's controversial and people make different arguments, so I'll just believe what I want to believe."

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956954When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.

What is your source for less than 4%? The study I'm most familiar with is Blau and Kahn, who found that a fully adjusted measure of pay in the same jobs with the same background had a pay gap of 8.4%.

http://www.economics.cornell.edu/about/news/new-york-times-highlights-professors-blau-and-kahns-gender-wage-gap-research

However, that might not be the "correct" number depending on what you are trying to measure. Some of the remaining 10-12% gap could also be caused by sexism, if sexism influences what jobs women are hired for, how much experience they get, and so forth. There is also the effect among couples I mentioned earlier. If a wife is making 8.4% less than her husband, she is more likely to take time off, move away from her career, etc.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956964I must have been looking at old stats.  (They might have been 2011 or 2012.)

Let me see if I can find mine.  Mine actually might be incorrect ones.  Actually, I was using the wrong number, it's actually 8% according to this one paper:

http://ftp.iza.org/dp9656.pdf (http://ftp.iza.org/dp9656.pdf)

And I'm apparently out of date, that paper ends it's work at 2010.  So your number maybe correct.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956954When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.

From the statistics I've seen, it varies wildy based on age range and industry. But from what I can tell, for millennials, women actually make more than men overall.

Quote from: jhkim;956967What is your source for less than 4%? The study I'm most familiar with is Blau and Kahn, who found that a fully adjusted measure of pay in the same jobs with the same background had a pay gap of 8.4%.

http://www.economics.cornell.edu/about/news/new-york-times-highlights-professors-blau-and-kahns-gender-wage-gap-research

However, that might not be the "correct" number depending on what you are trying to measure. Some of the remaining 10-12% gap could also be caused by sexism, if sexism influences what jobs women are hired for, how much experience they get, and so forth. There is also the effect among couples I mentioned earlier. If a wife is making 8.4% less than her husband, she is more likely to take time off, move away from her career, etc.

I actually just found the 2% stat mentioned after my post.  http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-pay-gap - though I don't know if other places might still go a couple % higher depending upon their methodology.

Whatever the case - it sounds like there's still a bit of a wage gap (though I've heard an argument that some of the job categories slant it to be more than it is - such as pro athletes being combined with other jobs - where the male athletes obviously skew the stats towards males in that category *shrug*) but definitely nowhere near the $0.78 on the dollar or so commonly spouted. (which would have males earning more that 28% more)

I've never heard of anywhere in the US that pays women less than men for the exact same job?

EDIT: You know what, fuck this stupid topic. What could I possibly add that hasn't already been said?

Quote from: Lynn;956912That said, you frame the context and define terms, and yet those same terms have implied meanings and relevance beyond that context. They are also suggestive of corrective measures based on social norms.

What amounts as an advantage depends on exactly how you define each individual instance and type of advantage, and perhaps more importantly, what you don't. Just like the earlier point someone made of equal pay vs lifetime earnings potential.

Once you drill down into specific sub-groups or individuals, things start to fly apart. But here's the thing. Even if I fall entirely within the scope of your definition, I still have my individual rights, and also personal 'properties' which grant protected status under the law (gender, national origin, etc). And even if you've narrowed the scope of your definition and I happen to fall within the range of 'privilege' it is no protection against pursuing my rights to life, liberty and happiness right into a horrible situation of my own devising, or protection against some random event or encounter or disability.

I don't recognize or accept labels that aren't clearly defined and qualified. "White Privilege" is a social narrative construct and intentionally left without clear, specific definitions of scope, because it is more useful that way to some who use the term to their advantage.

You make a fair point. And the label is dicey, at best. But in order to discuss it, I think you have to call it something. When I think of the issue, I mainly consider certain instances that affect others that have a much smaller chance of happening to me, like getting questioned by cops in my own driveway (as happened to Doug Glanville, a former major leaguer with the Phillies), or having a greater chance of being harassed. The closest thing I have to it is once when I was going on a walk around my neighborhood, dressed way down in some old sweats, I had a local cop pull up and ask me where I lived. I pointed to my house a block away and said, "Right there." Dude got all pissy and told me not to walk on the side of the road. My only recourse on that stretch of road -- a short, horribly maintained piece without a real shoulder, bounded by waist high grass, a piece I needed to cover before turning down a sidestreet that had a proper shoulder -- was to walk through the jungle for 100 feet. So, I asked the guy, "Am I supposed to walk in the weeds?" He just sneered and drove off. I don't know whether he considered pressing the issue more or not (which would've been interesting, because I was also less than a quarter mile from where I worked, so I could've pointed to the HS to identify that), but he drove off.

I still wonder sometimes what might have happened if I'd been someone else. Probably nothing. But I think that, if I had been someone else, maybe one of those minority kids I teach, whether the guy would've reacted differently. Maybe not. I can't say. But it made me think about it. More than I'd thought about it before. What I still take away from it is that I don't have to live with certain fears, as others might. Fears that don't even occur to me, but are a daily presence for others.

Again, can't say it fits all situations, but, even if we just have perception problems, then we need to attack the perceptions, try to get to a place where a company like GR doesn't feel like it has to open doors that already are (and I don't think they all are--yet).

I haven't done a great job of contributing directly to the central question of this thread, so I'll shut my trap on it, lest I get way off topic again. I think GR's idea is fine, and they're welcome to it. I hope some new and great talent is discovered that enhances the gaming culture in some way.

P.S. That horrible stretch of road, a real hazard that had busses running to it back and forth, every school day, was the main artery feeding the school with the low income students. I worked there 9 years. They JUST started working on it this year, and they're still not finished with it. Meanwhile, the high income school, with its nice, broad-laned road, also is getting an upgrade that it really doesn't need. Both schools use the same tax base. I don't know what took so long. I just know that, had the situation been reversed, the upscale crew would've pitched a shit fit, same as we did, and (tou bet your ass) it would've been taken care of a lot quicker.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;956973EDIT: You know what, fuck this stupid topic. What could I possibly add that hasn't already been said?

A song and dance number?

Quote from: Spinachcat;956984A song and dance number?

(http://i.imgur.com/GkjYT0C.gif)

Quote from: Spinachcat;956984A song and dance number?

[video=youtube;rnofql9k2R8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnofql9k2R8[/youtube]

Quote from: cranebump;956979You make a fair point. And the label is dicey, at best. But in order to discuss it, I think you have to call it something. When I think of the issue, I mainly consider certain instances that affect others that have a much smaller chance of happening to me, like getting questioned by cops in my own driveway (as happened to Doug Glanville, a former major leaguer with the Phillies), or having a greater chance of being harassed.

What data supported evidence was there that the police in his area are targeting Black people without cause other than just being Black?

Quote from: Lynn;957001What data supported evidence was there that the police in his area are targeting Black people without cause other than just being Black?

And here comes Alt-Drama Clubkid Lynn waving a favorite racist argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;957015And here comes Alt-Drama Clubkid Lynn waving a favorite racist argumentum ad ignorantiam.

How is it a fallacy or racist to ask for actual evidence?

Quote from: Lynn;957017How is it a fallacy or racist to ask for actual evidence?

It is difficult to prove categorically that police are acting without proper cause, since most data collection is in their hands, and they can claim cause (often correctly) that their subjects dispute. Absence of proof, though, isn't proof that there is no racism - just that it is difficult to prove either way. There have been many local studies that have shown racial bias in police actions, although not in fatal shootings (which is the most common hot-button issue).

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html?_r=0

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/data-police-racial-bias

Sorry, the police shooting thing is way off-topic.  Getting back to the talent search,

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956963You know what I want?  Some definitive proof that somewhere, women are being held back from...  Well, anything, here in the West.  I can't seem to find one legal right they don't have, and yet, they claim to be oppressed.  'Oppressed' to the point where ads like this are considered effectively mandatory no matter the legalities involved.

As far as I know, ads like the Green Ronin one from the OP are extremely rare. I can't think of any other cases, so it seems to me that they are not "considered effectively mandatory" as Brady suggests.

Quote from: jhkim;957020Absence of proof, though, isn't proof that there is no racism.

Certainly, absence of proof is merely that, and nothing more.

So what are constituents (and their representatives) in hot spot locales doing in order to address the lack of evidence?

Many of the studies that get in the public spotlight lack critical and actionable details and local relevance. That is a serious problem.

Where I have the problem is that while the absence of proof isn't proof that there is no racism, neither are individual and collective subjective emotions proof there is.

Quote from: jhkim;957021As far as I know, ads like the Green Ronin one from the OP are extremely rare. I can't think of any other cases, so it seems to me that they are not "considered effectively mandatory" as Brady suggests.

Only comparison I can think of is The Fine Young Capitalist thing looking for sponsoring female videogame developers.

Quote from: Lynn;957023Where I have the problem is that while the absence of proof isn't proof that there is no racism, neither are individual and collective subjective emotions proof there is.

Didn't he post to studies on this? You glide right over them like they weren't there.

Yet again proving why arguing politics, particularly on the net, is largely pointless.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956832OK, now I know you're deliberately trolling.  Forget it.  I've proven my point, what they are doing is a federal crime.

As Tristam points out as a Canadian why do you care? In Canada certain industries are federally required to have an equity policy that exactly replicates what GR is doing here but with the force of law. Getting pissed about something that may or may not be illegal in the US that is perfectly legal in your own country is rather odd, no?

Quote from: jhkim;957021Getting back to the talent search,

As far as I know, ads like the Green Ronin one from the OP are extremely rare. I can't think of any other cases, so it seems to me that they are not "considered effectively mandatory" as Brady suggests.

It's F&SF publishing, rather than gaming, but I listen to a trio of weekly short-fiction podcasts (PodCastle, Escape Pod, and PseudoPod) which have run an "Artemis Rising" event the last few years (three years, I think, but it might be four), during which they run only stories by female and non-binary authors in the month of March each year.  They make a point of actively soliciting female/non-binary submissions for a month or two leading up to Artemis Rising and then heavily branding their March episodes as "Artemis Rising", including direct discussion of the event in the intro segment of each episode.  They really want to be sure that everyone who has these podcasts on their radar is aware of what they're doing to promote non-male authors.

Which makes the statements in this thread about 47% of F&SF authors being women already all the more interesting.

Quote from: nDervish;957042Which makes the statements in this thread about 47% of F&SF authors being women already all the more interesting.

I'm not certain about that, what I do know from my time working in the publishing industry is that 80% of book purchases are by women, and that the romance genre sales dwarf any other genre by a huge margin.

In the early 90s, I was an assistant to a literary agent and ran my own agency for a micro-minute. I can confirm there were successful male romance authors who use female names, and of course, there have always been a few men who write romance with their own name as well. Nicholas Sparks makes a freaking fortune.

Quote from: Necrozius;956870(saw a comment on Facebook from a gal desperate to start punching "those Nazis" who are against Green Ronin's move).

Amazing how people who have never taken a punch want to punch people.

It's weird how social media has made casual threats of violence part of basic discussions.

Quote from: cranebump;956877Men face no such choice or equivalency.

Tell that to all the men who missed their kids' childhood while working.

Or the soldiers who didn't even see their kids for many months at a time.

Stay home moms trade career years for child rearing years. The men who stay in their career make more cash, but lose out on raising their kids.
 
It's absolutely a trade. People just have to decide which is more important to them, or just half ass both which is what I mostly see these days.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956875What Obama and Trump have in common is money.

They were both the "protest / outsider candidate"

In 2008, people found it exciting to vote in the Black Guy for being Black.

In 2016, people found it exciting to vote in the Rich Guy for not being Hillary.

Quote from: shuddemell;956905I have trouble believing that if women are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they must have a leg up to compete. Seems a strange point of view to me.

Comedian Iliza Shlesinger has a great bit about how women "want equality...and a little more."

She also does a great bit on why you don't want to be mermaid.  She totally ruined the Little Mermaid.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956931did you not see the dumb fuckers oozing out of the storm drains in the run up to and aftermath of the last US election?

I saw them! And they won the popular vote!

EDIT: No, bad Shipyard! Stay out of this!

Quote from: jhkim;957021Sorry, the police shooting thing is way off-topic.  Getting back to the talent search,


As far as I know, ads like the Green Ronin one from the OP are extremely rare. I can't think of any other cases, so it seems to me that they are not "considered effectively mandatory" as Brady suggests.

For RPGs I agree, so let's not lose our heads here. However, I still see why this pisses people off whenever it happens. Whenever someone caters to men specifically or (God forbid) suggests something is 'only for men' you will hear a scream of outrage from good number of people, while women only groups or whatever are applauded. It's a backlash.

People are still pushing for more women in sciences for instance. I recently told my hair dresser that of all the university science classes and lab sections I have taught each semester for the last three and a half years  (adds up to about 50 classes including lab sections), I have only had one (1) which was majority men. All the others were majority women, and sometimes nearly all women. She instantly thought this was great, and clap clap etc. So.......I had to wonder that there was apparently no notion that this MIGHT become a problem?

Quote from: Lynn;957001What data supported evidence was there that the police in his area are targeting Black people without cause other than just being Black?

Here's (https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/04/i-was-racially-profiled-in-my-own-driveway/360615/) the article, in case you're interested.

Quote from: Spinachcat;957051Tell that to all the men who missed their kids' childhood while working. Or the soldiers who didn't even see their kids for many months at a time. Stay home moms trade career years for child rearing years. The men who stay in their career make more cash, but lose out on raising their kids. It's absolutely a trade. People just have to decide which is more important to them, or just half ass both which is what I mostly see these days.

Since this was addressed at me, and I may have been unclear: the equivalency I was referring to was the fact that men cannot physically bear children, and so do not have to consider losing time at work (along with chances at advancement) because of, you know, passing a bowling ball through a keyhole.

P.S. I served 8 years in the Army, about half of that away from home. I am familiar with the above scenario.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

I'm fine with the project. I don't think it's actually going to do anything to move the player demographics any but it's fine to try to reach out to different folks. It's a private company doing what it wants and publishing products is a free market. Good on them.

If a goal to get more women into the hobby is actually serious then there should be a "Take your GF/Wife/Daughter to your game" day. Because the easiest way to get more women into the hobby is to have men involve the women in their lives.

I just think it's a losing battle because I don't think we will ever see parity at the table because I think, by and large, women are just not that interested in pretend elf games.

Quote from: Voros;957028Didn't he post to studies on this? You glide right over them like they weren't there.  Yet again proving why arguing politics, particularly on the net, is largely pointless.

The existence of a study doesn't guarantee that it is relevant. For example:

'The study, "The Science of Justice: Race, Arrests, and Police Use of Force," did not seek to determine whether the employment of force in any particular instance was justified, but the center's researchers found that the disparity in which African-Americans were subjected to police force remained consistent across what law enforcement officers call the use-of-force continuum — from relatively mild physical force, through baton strikes, canine bites, pepper spray, Tasers and gunshots.'

The disproportion is constant in instances of use-of-force. Got it. If use-of-force occurs, the proportion of it being used against Black people is much higher than similar encounters with White people. Or is it simply by population in the sampled area?

Wouldn't it be more relevant to note if the use-of-force was justified or not?

What counts as 'justified' use of force? Does it mean the alleged criminal gave you a funny look, or did they do something else?

You stop at a very shallow level of understanding and you end up with people using it towards whatever ends they have, because hey, there was a study!

Quote from: cranebump;957095Here's (https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/04/i-was-racially-profiled-in-my-own-driveway/360615/) the article, in case you're interested.

Thanks, that was a well written piece. It would be useful I think to know if his resemblance to the person who generated the original complaint was something more than just being Black. If I were the officer in charge of that young cop, Id also be wondering how this young guy has the time to go out of his jurisdiction, and how it was authorized.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;957044I'm not certain about that, what I do know from my time working in the publishing industry is that 80% of book purchases are by women, and that the romance genre sales dwarf any other genre by a huge margin.

It was from a study I'd read about from Strange Horizons a few years ago. Mind you - it's Science Fiction *AND* Fantasy combined. They said it's about half of the books published. When you start drilling down into sub-genres you'll see a marked differences in distribution. Women tend to only be about 25% of the Sci-fi books for instance, but they crank out a ton of fantasy.

And of course in Romance books they're a significant majority.

I find the attribution writ-large that sexism is some kind of institution in publishing - and even gaming, absurd. These are simple market forces. I recall that same study also pointed out that men submit a lot more fiction than women do as well - like 75% more. Where these things crop up is the reviews. Men get reviewed more than women do. Dunno why. But that's not really the fault of the publishers, especially when anyone with a blog can do a review.

The issue here, as it is with Identity Politics that seek to assign some kind of "blame" to distinctions where no blame necessarily is required - is one of tastes and perception. The assumption being made is that because someone doesn't believe that 51% of all things aren't female in representation it implicitly must be some kind of male-conspiracy. It doesn't account for motivation, trends in tastes, and interests. If you want to see a great example of this at work right now - look at Marvel Comics right now.

TL/DR - I like good things. Make good things. Take my money.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956687I'm going to blow the lid off this topic with a news flash...women are not (as whole) as interested in rolling initiative on a group of glaive wielding orcs as men are.

True-ish, but lots of women do seem to like the idea of "D&D fantasy" and RPGs (my Thursday group has 4 female players & 1 male). I get the general impression GMing (& message board posting!) skews male more than playing RPGs does, though again 2 of the 4 female players in my Thursday group also GM pretty regularly, one I'd say probably GMs more than plays. I saw recent estimate D&D players were 30% female, up from I think 18% in 2000, and that fits my experience.

So who wants to take a friendly 5$ wager for how many pages it'll take before this thread goes to Pungency, in spirit and place?

Quote from: Lynn;957110Thanks, that was a well written piece. It would be useful I think to know if his resemblance to the person who generated the original complaint was something more than just being Black. If I were the officer in charge of that young cop, Id also be wondering how this young guy has the time to go out of his jurisdiction, and how it was authorized.

Hard to say. The concern for me would be about the person calling in, ostensibly, one of the neighbors, and what their assumptions were (as well as why they didn't go outside to find out who was there and why). What hits home for me is Glanville's feeling that he has to teach his children the proper amount of fear to exercise, which I find incredibly heartbreaking.

Quote from: S'mon;957114True-ish, but lots of women do seem to like the idea of "D&D fantasy" and RPGs (my Thursday group has 4 female players & 1 male). I get the general impression GMing (& message board posting!) skews male more than playing RPGs does, though again 2 of the 4 female players in my Thursday group also GM pretty regularly, one I'd say probably GMs more than plays. I saw recent estimate D&D players were 30% female, up from I think 18% in 2000, and that fits my experience.

do you remember the survey? I know that I've seen surveys that show a lot more women that play board and card games right now with the boom happening. I haven't seen anything specifically about RPGs.

Quote from: trechriron;956550Third, With the lowest possible barrier to self-publishing that has ever existed in the history of the industry (hobby), why does it fucking matter? Did you believe you're so awesome that GR was going to just hire you - penis unseen - for a quickie freelancer contract on a project because #meritocracy? I'm astonished. Seriously. Kevin Crawford has posted How To Publish Shit Yourselves You Fucking Whiny Near-Do-Wells on so many forums so many times how in the FUCK SAUCE did you miss it? Just search the GOOGLES. Dudes. Seriously. It's been 7 fucking days! You could have had your first book on OBS by now!

Ladies. Seriously. It's been 7 fucking days! You could have had your first book on OBS by now! Why do you need a company to hire you and pay you as a freelancer?

Wake me up when OBS is filled with self published RPG products by women authors unjustly cast out of the freelance industry with no other recourse but to do it all themselves from home! This is SJW marketing. If you want a female writer you hire one, plain and simple. You don't go around promoting a "women only talent search."

Women don't need this. They can kick all the ass they want in writing, illustration, design and layout. And I bet they'd rather have their games bought and played for being good, and not because they were made by a woman.


"I don't want to be the Black Spider-Man. I just want to be Spider-man."

-- Miles Morales

Quote from: shuddemell;956905I have trouble believing that if women are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they must have a leg up to compete. Seems a strange point of view to me.

"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Do you really find it that hard to believe?

Quote from: Ulairi;957099Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

Possible? Sure. Likely? Given their high participation rates in associated hobbies and interests, not very.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Do you really find it that hard to believe?

You just compared women in the gaming industry today to Jews in 1930's Germany. Are you kidding me?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135Possible? Sure. Likely? Given their high participation rates in associated hobbies and interests, not very.

... because everyone that enjoys a thing, they should go out and subsequently make  that thing? Where is this normally true?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Do you really find it that hard to believe?



Possible? Sure. Likely? Given their high participation rates in associated hobbies and interests, not very.

What are their associated hobbies?

Quote from: Ulairi;957099Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

Maybe... it might also be something about the kinds of pretend RPG are often associated with, regardless of whether those associations are accurate... it might be something about how long RPG sessions are... it might be something about the sorts of guys who play RPGs... way too many variables.
But the assumption seems to be that there ARE some women who would like to engage with the hobby more, but for whatever reason do not feel as welcome as they'd like.
Is that a bad assumption? Do those supposed women exist? And if they do, are they wrong for imagining they're not welcome?
What more can I do on my end than to police my own behavior, and try to be open and welcoming?

I'd still like to see some listing of what notable female RPG talents are out there... making games, writing blogs.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Jaqcuaying history.

It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

Quote from: trechriron;957148It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

Agreed with one caveat.

I don't think there is a moral duty to ensure that there are more RPG players or RPG authors who are women. It's not like there's real-world status that women are denied by their not being into RPGs. On a personal level I like playing in groups that include women, and I like seeing more female RPG authors - but if someone doesn't care, I don't fault them.

I agree that Green Ronin's call isn't a revolution or oppression of male authors. If they are interested in a French perspective and recruit for a French person to help develop one of their games, that should be fine and isn't oppression of non-French authors.

Quote from: tenbones;957137... because everyone that enjoys a thing, they should go out and subsequently make  that thing? Where is this normally true?

Since I was replying to a statement about playing roleplaying games, I'm not really sure what relevancy you think this has.

Quote from: Ashakyre;957146Jaqcuaying history.

It's the inability to spell properly that really seals the deal on this non sequitur.

Quote from: Ulairi;957139What are their associated hobbies?

Board gaming and SF/fantasy fandom in general would be two big examples. Fan-fiction writers are also a big clue that there's something wrong with the tenet that women aren't interested in being creative in these demesnes.

Quote from: trechriron;957148It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

But here's the problem, what if women don't want to?

And that's the thing people are finding out: Women don't want to.  It's nice to put in these measures, but how do you do it without forcing people into or out of jobs they want to do?

This ad is worse than just potentially criminal, it's POINTLESS.  Outside of virtue signaling and other social justice whining crap, it doesn't benefit anything.

Opening doors to women who don't want, simply means more empty doors.

Also, what's wrong with letting the merits of your WORK speak for you?  What ever happened to that?



Someone asked why I care?  Because I like the stuff they put out.  Most of the political crap they shove into some of their books I can easily ignore, but on the whole, they've put out decent to good stuff.  And if this sort of advertisement gets them in legal trouble, that might mean they'd have to stop working on stuff I like.  So there's nothing wrong in pointing out the issues, and hope they correct them, so they won't run the risk of trouble.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;957044I'm not certain about that, what I do know from my time working in the publishing industry is that 80% of book purchases are by women, and that the romance genre sales dwarf any other genre by a huge margin.

True.  I believe that Romance/Women's Fiction is about 40-50% of the total adult fiction market (in # of books sold - less in $), followed by mystery/thriller, followed by Fantasy/SF.  But romance dominating fiction and women buying the VAST majority of them has little to do with F&SF authors.  I doubt that women purchase 80% of F&SF, I think it's just them buying well over 90% of the romance/women's fiction which skews them to buy 80% of book purchases

I actually couldn't find that as a solid stat - though I found a few vague references to 70-80% #s.  Though even that seems like it would be skewed up somewhat because I'd think that women are still more likely to buy books for their kids etc. as even those #s were based upon purchases and not actual reading.  Though I did read an interesting theory that it's because when learning to read as a kid - most boys don't have the attention span for reading and therefore never got into it for pleasure.

Quote from: Trond;956671If women were as interested in RPGs as men (or more interested, say), then they would have taken over the hobby long ago. That's what happened to fiction literature in general (check recent authors on the book shelves; more women than men). If women are underrepresented in a field or hobby, it is not necessarily due to sexism. It's not necessarily due to any "problem" at all. Sure I would have liked more women in the hobby, but liking an idea does not make it realistic (and seriously, A LOT of people can't tell the difference).

This has been my question about all these dust ups. Why is there moral urgency that rpg hobby be "gender equal"? If women aren't being deliberately excluded then if more want to join the fun, they'll join. Or they may be more interested in other things. I'd love to see more women in the hobby personally but I think that's best served by asking more women if they'd like to give it a shot.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957156Since I was replying to a statement about playing

It's the inability to spell properly that really seals the deal on this non sequitur.

Pedantic.

Quote from: trechriron;957148It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

Its the publicity stunt angle that irks some of us. And this whole series of "inclusivist" flag waving has turned the various groups, of which I am in one, into just a damn status trophy. And very often only when it suits them to boost sales or bragging rights that they scored one on the checklist.

And on a personal level these sorts of gags encourage hiring someone not based on their skills. But because of their gender, skin colour, completeness if body, whatever.

Quote from: Nexus;957165This has been my question about all these dust ups. Why is there moral urgency that rpg hobby be "gender equal"? If women aren't being deliberately excluded then if more want to join the fun, they'll join. Or they may be more interested in other things. I'd love to see more women in the hobby personally but I think that's best served by asking more women if they'd like to give it a shot.

Unfortunately, its now common wisdom that women are unable to enjoy any media created by men or starring men, so they are forced to sit on the sidelines until a few men make a big effort to recruit some women to write in the industry and create FAIRNESS and EQUALITY.

Quote from: Ulairi;957099Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

Based on what I've seen at game cons and comic cons, women outnumber men in cosplay and equal the men in LARPS.

There is definitely a female audience for playing pretend elf. Just maybe not with dice.

I belong to a couple boardgame meetups and they're 25% to 40% women, depending on the event. I have noticed women are less interested in the combat games, and more interested in the party games and non-combat oriented strategy games.

Quote from: Ulairi;957101It's a private company doing what it wants and publishing products is a free market. Good on them.

Private companies and the mythical "free market" are not exempt from hiring laws.

Why are these laws inviolate if protecting women from discrimination, but meaningless otherwise?

Shouldn't black men or gay men receive the same protection?

Quote from: Ulairi;957101If a goal to get more women into the hobby is actually serious then there should be a "Take your GF/Wife/Daughter to your game" day.

You posted the absolutely smartest thing in this thread.

THAT is a truly great idea.

Quote from: tenbones;957137You just compared women in the gaming industry today to Jews in 1930's Germany. Are you kidding me?

I can't see the difference, and if you see any difference, you're Hitler!!

Really tenbones, how dare you!!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;957158This ad is worse than just potentially criminal, it's POINTLESS.  Outside of virtue signaling and other social justice whining crap, it doesn't benefit anything.

As Lynn mentioned a while ago, this is an advertising and marketing stunt.

And it worked!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;957158Also, what's wrong with letting the merits of your WORK speak for you?  What ever happened to that?

Sounds like you and tenbones are both Hitler.

Quote from: Nexus;957165Why is there moral urgency that rpg hobby be "gender equal"?

Sex.

Hot sweaty chunky monkey geek on geek sex.

Green Ronin shall lead all the lonely masturbators into a glorious future filled with D&D and Chill.

Hopefully, all the hot sex will result in some much needed weight loss among our fellow hobbyists!

I am coming to believe my contribution of Erasure's song, "It Doesn't Have to Be," might be the best thing about this thread. So far, I am reserving my half onion contribution until things improve.

Current Topic State: Not Worth Half an Onion. :mad:

Quote from: Ashakyre;957166Pedantic.

You have, at least, managed to spell this non sequitur correctly. So that's improvement. Good work!

Quote from: Opaopajr;957180I am coming to believe my contribution of Erasure's song, "It Doesn't Have to Be," might be the best thing about this thread. So far, I am reserving my half onion contribution until things improve.

Current Topic State: Not Worth Half an Onion. :mad:

Was it part of the joke that the song was missing on Youtube or was that just my phone fucking up?

Quote from: Voros;957202Was it part of the joke that the song was missing on Youtube or was that just my phone fucking up?

Well, it does work on my phone... But I am going to go with it being part of the joke -- and a means to oppress you in response to my being offended (or something :p ).

Quote from: Spinachcat;957178Based on what I've seen at game cons and comic cons, women outnumber men in cosplay and equal the men in LARPS.

From what I've seen through my friends in local Renaissance Fair 'guilds' there is a large percentage of women there as well.

I mentioned this discussion to my friend while we were at Michaels tonight, shopping for her scrapbooking/crafting supplies... asking if her friends ever discuss the lack of men in their hobby. She said, "We don't want any more men in it!"
She also said that she thought it was "kinda creepy" that guys seemed so concerned about attracting more women to 'play with'.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957190You have, at least, managed to spell this non sequitur correctly. So that's improvement. Good work!

How was what he wrote a non sequitur?

Quote from: jhkimAs far as I know, ads like the Green Ronin one from the OP are extremely rare. I can't think of any other cases, so it seems to me that they are not "considered effectively mandatory" as Brady suggests.

Quote from: Trond;957089For RPGs I agree, so let's not lose our heads here. However, I still see why this pisses people off whenever it happens. Whenever someone caters to men specifically or (God forbid) suggests something is 'only for men' you will hear a scream of outrage from good number of people, while women only groups or whatever are applauded. It's a backlash.

At least within this thread, the screams of outrage are from those who are objecting to Green Ronin. GR are not complaining about others in the industry or demanding exact parity - they're doing their specific project.

I don't think it's required that there be 50% women among RPG players or designers, but if people like Nicole Lindroos - or Stacy Dellorfano (of ConTessa) or others want to work on projects specifically involving women, I think that's fine. It's not required, but I personally enjoy seeing diverse gamers and would encourage it.

Quote from: Trond;957089People are still pushing for more women in sciences for instance. I recently told my hair dresser that of all the university science classes and lab sections I have taught each semester for the last three and a half years  (adds up to about 50 classes including lab sections), I have only had one (1) which was majority men. All the others were majority women, and sometimes nearly all women. She instantly thought this was great, and clap clap etc. So.......I had to wonder that there was apparently no notion that this MIGHT become a problem?

Do you think it is a problem?  I'm not one of those who thinks that every field in every locale needs to have exactly even representation. It might potentially be a problem if men were being systematically discriminated against. However, if men simply aren't choosing to go into these science classes, then that's their choice. Men have plenty of choices, and I'd want to see some more specific evidence that they were being oppressed before coming to that conclusion.

Men aren't going into higher education in the numbers that women are in general. Why that is, I have an opinion but no facts to back it up. One possibility is that careers in business and crafts are more readily available to men.

Quote from: Voros;957322Men aren't going into higher education in the numbers that women are in general. Why that is, I have an opinion but no facts to back it up. One possibility is that careers in business and crafts are more readily available to men.

The whole system is heavily female slanted. Although from what I see (as a lecturer) overseas students from outside NW Europe turn up in about equal numbers, 50-50 male & female. The male overseas students haven't gone through a demoralising female-oriented education system where normal maleness is often pathologised. My home (UK) students are about 80% female.

Quote from: jhkim;957265I don't think it's required that there be 50% women among RPG players or designers, but if people like Nicole Lindroos - or Stacy Dellorfano (of ConTessa) or others want to work on projects specifically involving women, I think that's fine. It's not required, but I personally enjoy seeing diverse gamers and would encourage it.

Too bad they can't seem to manage it without dislocating their elbows from patting their own backs and reinforcing a bullshit narrative for publicity and profit.

I have to admit the biggest problem I have with this is Green Robin using a great idea to bring a little diversity and equality into the industry and dressing it up like they're the second coming. It was the same with Blue Rose, a book I enjoyed, they spent more time going on about how awesome and radically non discriminative they were than promoting the content of the bloody book. And whilst it shouldn't it does sour me on buying their stuff.

Hopefully this new project will be great and if there's enough good hype from gamers I'll take a look but I won't bother checking out the shrine of PC that is their website.

Its a callout to a specific perceived audience that time and again its been shown is louder and more aggressive than it is large. I like to think the debacle with the new Ghostbusters taught Hollywood that, though Hollywood has a notorious history of learning the wrong lessons from its failures. Speaking of, whatever happened with the new "feminism edition" of Swords & Wizardry?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;957375Its a callout to a specific perceived audience that time and again its been shown is louder and more aggressive than it is large. I like to think the debacle with the new Ghostbusters taught Hollywood that, though Hollywood has a notorious history of learning the wrong lessons from its failures. Speaking of, whatever happened with the new "feminism edition" of Swords & Wizardry?

Didn't the neq Ghostbusters do fairly well? It wasn't a blockbuster or anything but there is a sequel in the works?

Quote from: Nexus;957389Didn't the new Ghostbusters do fairly well?

Not according to the Hollywood Reporter:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/2016s-biggest-box-office-bombs-958780/item/box-office-bombs-hunstman-959598

Quote from: Nexus;957389Didn't the neq Ghostbusters do fairly well? It wasn't a blockbuster or anything but there is a sequel in the works?

Nope - it lost tens of millions of dollars.

It brought in $230m in the box office.  $34m in video.  But the break-even was $300m.  (and the $300m was in reference to the box-office, so I have no idea if they get the same margin from video)

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Ghostbusters-(2016)#tab=summary

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ghostbusters-box-office-loss-sequel-unlikely-918515

It looks like the sequel was announced at release to help gin up support - but with losing $ that's not gonna happen.

Edit: Dang ninjas!

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;957391Not according to the Hollywood Reporter:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/2016s-biggest-box-office-bombs-958780/item/box-office-bombs-hunstman-959598

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;957392Nope - it lost tens of millions of dollars.

It brought in $230m in the box office.  $34m in video.  But the break-even was $300m.  (and the $300m was in reference to the box-office, so I have no idea if they get the same margin from video)

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Ghostbusters-(2016)#tab=summary

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ghostbusters-box-office-loss-sequel-unlikely-918515

It looks like the sequel was announced at release to help gin up support - but with losing $ that's not gonna happen.

Edit: Dang ninjas!

Huh, damn.  Thanks. The story I got was it was moderate success that made money over seas. Should have done the digging personally.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;957392Edit: Dang ninjas!

(http://i.imgur.com/SP0HJv2.gif)

Quote from: Nexus;957393Huh, damn.  Thanks. The story I got was it was moderate success that made money over seas. Should have done the digging personally.

I think the entertainment industry presents a very specific model of profitability. There is talk of a 'break even' point, and I get that it means something, but maybe it means something specific to them vs 'normal' business.

I worked for a few years for a company that licenses patents. They make investment X. They then charge according to a scale that does cover their R&D rather quickly, but their R&D will get covered, plus profitability, over time. Eventually, even the least R&D investment turns a profit, it just depends how long it takes and from what sources. It is a very specific view of profitability that doesn't always work with the rest of the world. They later made a telephone that entirely flopped because they tried to charge the first six months of customers for most of the R&D costs (total crash and burn) - following the same mentality as they apply to their patent licensing business.

A lot of Hollywood seems laser focused on the first box office weekend, and if they don't make serious bank money during then, they its a treated by some as a complete failure. It could also be that certain key interest holders are compensated accordingly, like extremely hot actors, the director, etc.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;957396(http://i.imgur.com/SP0HJv2.gif)

Ninja 4 : The Domination!

Quote from: Lynn;957398A lot of Hollywood seems laser focused on the first box office weekend, and if they don't make serious bank money during then, they its a treated by some as a complete failure.

I'm guessing that's part why there seem to be far fewer reviews in advance of movies coming out... why most of the reporting I see has to do with how much money a movie made, rather than how good it is.
When I was a kid I remember seeing plenty of reviews on news shows or in newspapers, before and around opening weekend... and none of these profit reports (as if knowing how much it made tells you much).

Quote from: CRKrueger;956667What's the desired result?

More importantly, does this actually achieve it? Because what kind of woman would respond to this? Most women already use #Pseudonyms or work in a genre that doesn't require it, and any woman taking this job would instantly become a political pawn and target.

It also implies that for all their sensitivity and outreach, #GreenRonin still does not get enough quality submissions from women to write a product. In other words, their previous efforts have failed. On the other hand #AveryAlder actually hired minorities for #MonsterHearts instead of howling that she'd really like to do so. And while I don't agree with some of her choices, I do agree with her sincerity and methods.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;956552Yeah, the last thread on this here was just closed.

Heh, I was wondering where my response went :)

I wonder why?

Quote from: cranebump;956790I cannot fault someone who wants to take action, without real malice, based on what they perceive is true and just, and in line with their beliefs.

Nor can I.

But when they refuse to evaluate the results of their actions, especially while continuing to cry "Intent doesn't matter", for the same reasons it's my duty to call them out and make sure they cannot do further harm.

Quote from: Trond;956946If I wanted to write sugar sweet romances it probably wouldn't hurt sales if I used a female pseudonym.

And enforce cultural gender roles? Are you mad?!?

Quote from: jhkim;957021As far as I know, ads like the Green Ronin one from the OP are extremely rare. I can't think of any other cases, so it seems to me that they are not "considered effectively mandatory" as Brady suggests.

Well #MonicaValentinelli put a call out for "female freelance writers" for the Conan RPG (https://twitter.com/mlvwrites/status/629693557415149568) (#Tweet deleted), because so far "nothing but men" had applied (https://twitter.com/booksofm/status/629702568378105857). Then she mysteriously leaves the project, despite supposedly receiving "over 400 applications for new writers, 95% of which were women" (http://www.booksofm.com/2015/09/my-departure-from-the-conan-rpg-update-on-apps-and-a-thank-you.html).

So within a month of making that initial #Tweet, Monica got 380 applications from women. Did she leave because none of them got hired?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;957396(http://i.imgur.com/SP0HJv2.gif)

Dumbass. Brought a gun to a blowdart fight.

Off Topic:

Movies need to make three times their initial investment, which includes the marketing budget, not just the film's (which is why Suicide Squad, for example needed nearly 1 Billion to be considered a hit.)  Ghostbusters (2016) and Passengers (2016) didn't come close, meaning they flopped.

Quote from: jhkim;957265At least within this thread, the screams of outrage are from those who are objecting to Green Ronin. GR are not complaining about others in the industry or demanding exact parity - they're doing their specific project.

I don't think it's required that there be 50% women among RPG players or designers, but if people like Nicole Lindroos - or Stacy Dellorfano (of ConTessa) or others want to work on projects specifically involving women, I think that's fine. It's not required, but I personally enjoy seeing diverse gamers and would encourage it.


Do you think it is a problem?  I'm not one of those who thinks that every field in every locale needs to have exactly even representation. It might potentially be a problem if men were being systematically discriminated against. However, if men simply aren't choosing to go into these science classes, then that's their choice. Men have plenty of choices, and I'd want to see some more specific evidence that they were being oppressed before coming to that conclusion.

I kinda agree. Maybe it isn't a problem. But then what is all this hoopla about? And what is this project about, if women could just as easily have written their own games long ago? Women have been present in the hobby from the start, and in sciences since....well Marie Curie is a good milestone. Every time there are fewer women somewhere, society seems to think that we must do something about it, rather than just leaving it wide open for everyone. By saying women only, all that GR is saying is really "no men" (because usually what companies are looking for is talent, no matter who it is), so all they are doing is excluding many people who might have had a good take on it. But it is good publicity I suppose.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;957396(http://i.imgur.com/SP0HJv2.gif)

This is easily worth my half an onion. Topic redeemed. Carry on!

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Do you really find it that hard to believe?



Possible? Sure. Likely? Given their high participation rates in associated hobbies and interests, not very.

I think anyone who conflates criticism of sexist hiring practices with the Holocaust is a histrionic adolescent with no sense of perspective.

Quote from: Trond;957434I kinda agree. Maybe it isn't a problem. But then what is all this hoopla about? And what is this project about, if women could just as easily have written their own games long ago? Women have been present in the hobby from the start, and in sciences since....well Marie Curie is a good milestone. Every time there are fewer women somewhere, society seems to think that we must do something about it, rather than just leaving it wide open for everyone. By saying women only, all that GR is saying is really "no men" (because usually what companies are looking for is talent, no matter who it is), so all they are doing is excluding many people who might have had a good take on it. But it is good publicity I suppose.

Virtue Signaling and self back patting I guess. Hell, even bigotry is a poor explanation as they could have just used the same tactics bigots have in the past accepted all applications then quietly circle filed the one that didn't fit their prejudice. If it weren't for the legal issues, it would be more of a sigh and roll my eyes thing.

I would like to see someone address the inequity between men and women that read for pleasure though

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;957396(http://i.imgur.com/SP0HJv2.gif)

Dear Lord, I saw this in the theater.

OK I've got to ask; which movie is that??

Quote from: S'mon;957354The whole system is heavily female slanted. Although from what I see (as a lecturer) overseas students from outside NW Europe turn up in about equal numbers, 50-50 male & female. The male overseas students haven't gone through a demoralising female-oriented education system where normal maleness is often pathologised. My home (UK) students are about 80% female.

Uh huh. I went to school no problem. Didn't feel the need to put my failures on others.

Quote from: Trond;957477OK I've got to ask; which movie is that??

Warboss Squee called it: Ninja IV: The Domination

This is why I miss indepentant video rental shops; the 80s was so full of Amazing Ridiculous films that are long forgotten

Quote from: trechriron;956550My opinion:

First, I applaud the cause. There is a decidedly horrible shortage of female game designers followed only by the slightly-less-but-still-horrible shortage of female tabletop roleplayers. It's getting better. I've seen more women sitting at tables in the cons up here in the great wet north, but improvements are always welcome.

Um, this is coming from a man who has advocated in character rape during play at the game table. So I wonder if the two things might just be related since rape tends to be a turn off.....

I'll put in my 0.02CR as well.

This is virtue signaling by Green Ronin, plain and simple. The company is making it public that they are hiring freelancers based on their genitalia and not necessarily their talent.

Quote from: Trond;957477OK I've got to ask; which movie is that??

Ninja 4: The Domination. great cheesy martial arts movie.

The lousy thing is, because of the hoopla and the obvious, self-serving, SJW bullshit, the writers who do get hired will probably get shitblasted on social media by extreme anti-sjw trolls, thus perpetuating the lie.

And of course it is a lie, because who is discriminating against women in RPGs.  Not videogames, cardgames, boardgames, or wargames but RPGs?
WotC?
Paizo?
White Wolf?
Catalyst?
Cubicle 7?
Pelgrane Press?
Evil Hat?
LotFP?
Did Nicole find out Pramas was a closet misogynist?
Any big-time supporters of this project want to name me an RPG company with discriminatory practices? Yeah. Thought not.

Who is not hiring women writers?
If there's no discrimination, then what's the point?

The truth is, any female even remotely interested in the RPG world knows that Paizo will hire them or buy their work.  In fact they know damn well the better their score on the Identity Scale, the better their chances.  Paizo is possibly the largest RPG company by employee count.

So again, what's the point?  Who will this attract?  People completely ignorant of the RPG industry who think they are incapable of getting noticed unless they have a safe space?  And that's going to be a good product? Really?

They're going to end up "discovering" people who are already published somewhere.  Just watch.

Quote from: CRKrueger;957495The lousy thing is, because of the hoopla and the obvious, self-serving, SJW bullshit, the writers who do get hired will probably get shitblasted on social media by extreme anti-sjw trolls, thus perpetuating the lie.

I hope you're wrong, but social media rarely disappoints those who expect the worst.

Of course, in the age of false flags and fake news, who even knows WTF on social media is even real. I still think half the outrage bits are deliberately planted by the opposing "side" or just dorknuggets who love the lolz of stirring up conflict. I can only imagine what unholy terror my 14 year old self would be unleashing on the planet if I had the internet back in the 80s. I probably would have 8 Twitter accounts constantly fighting with each other. So many of the SJW postings seem like parodies.

Who knows if or when this stuff is peaking. I do think that the younger generation (under 25) is less concerned about virtue-signalling than millennials. And in my homeland, the young men under 25 are pretty well aware that it's women who are effectively in charge of education and cultural discourse and doing at least as well economically, the men are scrabbling for a place at the table or dropping out rather than white-knighting.

Quote from: The_Shadow;957514Who knows if or when this stuff is peaking. I do think that the younger generation (under 25) is less concerned about virtue-signalling than millennials. And in my homeland, the young men under 25 are pretty well aware that it's women who are effectively in charge of education and cultural discourse and doing at least as well economically, the men are scrabbling for a place at the table or dropping out rather than white-knighting.

Are these the Herbivore Men we keep hearing about?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;957485Warboss Squee called it: Ninja IV: The Domination

This is why I miss indepentant video rental shops; the 80s was so full of Amazing Ridiculous films that are long forgotten

I know my cheesy 80s movies. :D

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;957517Are these the Herbivore Men we keep hearing about?

Herbivore Men?

Quote from: Nexus;957554Herbivore Men?

Never heard of it either, but according to Wikipedia,

QuoteHerbivore men or grass-eater men is a term used in Japan to describe men who have no interest in getting married or finding a girlfriend. The term of Herbivore men was also a term that is described as young men who had lost their “manliness”.

See also MGTOW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

Quote from: Christopher Brady;957433Movies need to make three times their initial investment, which includes the marketing budget, not just the film's (which is why Suicide Squad, for example needed nearly 1 Billion to be considered a hit.)  Ghostbusters (2016) and Passengers (2016) didn't come close, meaning they flopped.

First, the definition of "flop" is actually a film that has a smaller domestic box office than its production budget. (This is specifically because "flop" is a more severe term than "failure" which is a more severe term than "disappointment".)

Second, the rule of thumb you're talking about is actually three times the production budget (not total budget) worldwide in order to be a success. The rule of thumb originated as "domestic box office higher than production budget" because it was assumes that about half of receipts would come from overseas. As the ratio of domestic-to-foreign box office shifted, the shorthand was eventually revised to "twice the worldwide box office". Due to even more skewing towards foreign box office, particularly China where returns for studios are very poor, and much larger marketing budgets some people have begun shifting that to a "three times production budget" rule of thumb.

All of that being said: Yes. Both of those films flopped.

Quote from: Aglondir;957575Never heard of it either, but according to Wikipedia,


See also MGTOW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

Every stupid little thing is turning into a movement these days.

Quote from: jeff37923;957488I'll put in my 0.02CR as well.

This is virtue signaling by Green Ronin, plain and simple. The company is making it public that they are hiring freelancers based on their genitalia and not necessarily their talent.

Eeep! Triggered! You forgot to mention "....or based on the genitalia that they feel that they should have had"

So if you feel that you should have had a vagina you can always give it a shot.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;957517Are these the Herbivore Men we keep hearing about?

I'm thinking of young men graduating and going into the workplace, and realising that they are far from privileged, they are making less than their female peers and in many cases being actively discriminated against, for example by HR with hard or soft quotas who will choose a someone other than a white male every time given the choice.

Sure, some of them are dropping out and becoming "herbivores" as not everyone is cut out to be an alpha male and those who aren't, aren't seeing much reward for being a compliant team-playing "beta male" anymore.

Quote from: Aglondir;957575See also MGTOW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

Stuff like this just makes my head hurt.

Quote from: Trond;957609Eeep! Triggered! You forgot to mention "....or based on the genitalia that they feel that they should have had"

So if you feel that you should have had a vagina you can always give it a shot.

I feel an Epic Troll in the making.....If I cared that much. Maybe 4chan will pick up the gauntlet once they are done with Shia.

Quote from: trechriron;957148It's not complicated. We want more woman creators

Why? Why does it matter what genitals someone has if they're making your games?

Quote from: trechriron;957148I
so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators.

The ad basically said "no men need apply" that is the dictionary definition of excluding people right there.

Quote from: trechriron;957148One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women.

"So what if this one restaurant refuses to hire/serve black people there's hundreds of others out there." -the same logic

Quote from: trechriron;957148If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

And if you were a woman who said that they needed something like this before they started making games, you're lying to yourself.

Quote from: Simlasa;957219From what I've seen through my friends in local Renaissance Fair 'guilds' there is a large percentage of women there as well.

I mentioned this discussion to my friend while we were at Michaels tonight, shopping for her scrapbooking/crafting supplies... asking if her friends ever discuss the lack of men in their hobby. She said, "We don't want any more men in it!"

Did she say why?

The self-righteous screams of "so unfair to men!" from folks who bitch about histrionic SJW's strike me as tragically ironic (but not very humorous).

I haven't chimed in about the insinuation that guys should be expected to act like assholes (i.e., alpha males, or whatever you want to call them), as if boorishness is their fucking birthright. All I can say on this subject it is, I don't buy bitching and moaning from males that the education system doesn't cater to their "maleness" enough to succeed. Women are outworking us (well, them--I DID my fucking work and excelled in a lot of "male" shit, too [i.e., sports, the military, etc., etc.). They succeed, in part, because, instead of externalizing blame, they take accountability and do the damned work. At least that's what 20 years of watching high school boys fuck around (and excuse their fucking around as "boys will be boys") instead of paying attention has shown me.

Green Ronin wants to give females a shot? More power to them. They've earned it.

Quote from: cranebump;957739The self-righteous screams of "so unfair to men!" from folks who bitch about histrionic SJW's strike me as tragically ironic (but not very humorous).

I haven't chimed in about the insinuation that guys should be expected to act like assholes (i.e., alpha males, or whatever you want to call them), as if boorishness is their fucking birthright. All I can say on this subject it is, I don't buy bitching and moaning from males that the education system doesn't cater to their "maleness" enough to succeed. Women are outworking us (well, them--I DID my fucking work and excelled in a lot of "male" shit, too [i.e., sports, the military, etc., etc.). They succeed, in part, because, instead of externalizing blame, they take accountability and do the damned work. At least that's what 20 years of watching high school boys fuck around (and excuse their fucking around as "boys will be boys") instead of paying attention has shown me.

Green Ronin wants to give females a shot? More power to them. They've earned it.

What an utter load of horseshit.

Quote from: cranebump;957739The self-righteous screams of "so unfair to men!" from folks who bitch about histrionic SJW's strike me as tragically ironic (but not very humorous).

I haven't chimed in about the insinuation that guys should be expected to act like assholes (i.e., alpha males, or whatever you want to call them), as if boorishness is their fucking birthright. All I can say on this subject it is, I don't buy bitching and moaning from males that the education system doesn't cater to their "maleness" enough to succeed. Women are outworking us (well, them--I DID my fucking work and excelled in a lot of "male" shit, too [i.e., sports, the military, etc., etc.). They succeed, in part, because, instead of externalizing blame, they take accountability and do the damned work. At least that's what 20 years of watching high school boys fuck around (and excuse their fucking around as "boys will be boys") instead of paying attention has shown me.

Green Ronin wants to give females a shot? More power to them. They've earned it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Women_are_wonderful%22_effect

Quote from: cranebump;957739The self-righteous screams of "so unfair to men!" from folks who bitch about histrionic SJW's strike me as tragically ironic (but not very humorous).

That's what's ironic? Not the people who supposedly care about social justice supporting sexism and discrimination?

Quote from: cranebump;957739[Women] succeed, in part, because, instead of externalizing blame, they take accountability and do the damned work.

Man that's a pretty sexist blanket statement right there.

Quote from: cranebump;957739At least that's what 20 years of watching high school boys fuck around (and excuse their fucking around as "boys will be boys") instead of paying attention has shown me.

Well obviously that anecdotal evidence is good enough for a blanket judgement of men vs. women, AND there's no other possible explanation other than "boys are worse" /s

Quote from: cranebump;957739Green Ronin wants to give females a shot? More power to them. They've earned it.

So they should be given things by virtue of the gender they're born into, I'm pretty sure there's a term for that but I can't quite put my finger on it...

Quote from: cranebump;957739The self-righteous screams of "so unfair to men!" from folks who bitch about histrionic SJW's strike me as tragically ironic (but not very humorous).

I have to disagree, cbump. Watching people with white skin and dicks claim to be 'victims' is fucking hilarious.

Its amazing how easy the "privilege" card gets flipped. First, its bad whitey who has privilege, but then its just whitey men, but now its all men?

Black dudes fucked again!

BTW Cranebump, do you teach at an all boys high school?

I taught years ago (both SpEd and regular Ed, K through 12th, mostly middle school) and I never saw this gender disparity in effort you claim. Boys and girls goof off, just differently. Teen boys with adrenal hormones pumping through them are far jumpier and physical, but the teen girls needed constant redirection from chit chat and socializing in class. As for homework, the return rate of quality work was abysmal for both genders.

In my teaching experience, the successful student was a product of an involved home (whether parent, parents, or grandparents) and there was no slant from gender. Unfortunately, there were definitely major differences in number of involved families based on ethnic group.  

Also, your comment doesn't work. If women are outworking men, why does GR need to white knight for them?  

That's all this is - textbook white knighting. Po' womenfolk can't make it without the Man lifting them up.

And where is the Gamer SJW political savior complex for black men in gaming? I see far more white women at FLGS game days and conventions than I see black teens or black men. And I'm in LA where we've got plenty of middle class black men. And shouldn't all Latinos / Hispanics be courted by GR too?

If GR is such a paragon of virtue, why not make their ad "everyone welcome except for you hateful honkies with dicks?"
 

Quote from: Warboss Squee;957546I know my cheesy 80s movies. :D

I would trade every neuron of my memory of politics & current events for cheesy 80s mastery.

Few things have been a bigger waste of time than reading the news.

Quote from: The_Shadow;957615Sure, some of them are dropping out and becoming "herbivores" as not everyone is cut out to be an alpha male and those who aren't, aren't seeing much reward for being a compliant team-playing "beta male" anymore.

I'm an alpha and the corporate world sucks uber ass for us too, unless you're deeply connected, somehow rise fast enough in the command chain to dodge the HR bullshit or if you're willing to trade your soul for a bullshit title. It's why I am a freelance consultant.

I don't blame the herbivores. Why kill yourself to climb the corporate ladder?

BTW, women are going to learn that lesson soon enough. Let a generation retire, looking back at a meaningless career, divorces that destroyed their finances and family, and estranged children who don't care about them, and we'll quickly hear from the feminist intelligentsia about the nightmare of the corporate lie.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;957753I have to disagree, cbump. Watching people with white skin and dicks claim to be 'victims' is fucking hilarious.

Are you saying that white men are superior to other people? :/

Quote from: Black Vulmea;957753I have to disagree, cbump. Watching people with white skin and dicks claim to be 'victims' is fucking hilarious.

It would be, if someone had done that.

Quote from: Dionysus;957718Did she say why?

Because of men like you.

Wow, you are clearly out of touch, aren't you?

Quote from: cranebump;957739The self-righteous screams of "so unfair to men!" from folks who bitch about histrionic SJW's strike me as tragically ironic (but not very humorous).

Unfair?  Well, it is because it doesn't take into account ability or actual skill in the topic, but the more important part?  It's DISCRIMINATION BASED ON THE INDIVIDUAL'S SEX.  You do know what they call that, don't you?

(Oh, and the dictionary claims that it's typically directed towards women, but the word typically doesn't mean 'always'.)

(Cut pointless, clueless drivel about not knowing how society works outside of his own little Happy Land Bubble.)

Quote from: cranebump;957739Green Ronin wants to give females a shot? More power to them. They've earned it.

Even if it breaks a law that was designed specifically to benefit women and minorities.  Bravo, someone who clearly doesn't understand irony.

And you know what I find hilarious?  That somehow have 52% of the world's population is a 'minority'.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;957765Because of men like you.

Meaning what? Men who ask questions? Men who disagree with them about things?

Quote from: Dionysus;957769Meaning what? Men who ask questions? Men who disagree with them about things?

Well, yes.  Men are the enemy, men are all rapists.  That's what society teaches you, so it's gotta be right.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;957753I have to disagree, cbump. Watching people with white skin and dicks claim to be 'victims' is fucking hilarious.

Why are you dragging race into this? They're discriminating against black and Asian men too.

And I'm curious, is everyone who complains about discrimination from a private company whining in your eyes?

Quote from: The_Shadow;957615Sure, some of them are dropping out and becoming "herbivores" as not everyone is cut out to be an alpha male and those who aren't, aren't seeing much reward for being a compliant team-playing "beta male" anymore.

Part of this in Japan is that moving ahead with relationships and marriage ultimately means you have less money to spend on yourself. Graduating into full adulthood means long, long days and all your money going to your wife, who doles out a tiny allowance to you.

The herbivore men can spend their money on clothing, entertainment and hobbies - and the fact is, if they want any sort of physical affection or female attention, they can hire it rather cheaply.

Quote from: Lynn;957792Part of this in Japan is that moving ahead with relationships and marriage ultimately means you have less money to spend on yourself. Graduating into full adulthood means long, long days and all your money going to your wife, who doles out a tiny allowance to you.

The herbivore men can spend their money on clothing, entertainment and hobbies - and the fact is, if they want any sort of physical affection or female attention, they can hire it rather cheaply.

Here's a few other things you can find out about Japan:

The average Japanese woman wants to have a career until she is 24 and then wants to marry a, preferably rich, man.  (And for whatever reason, they honestly believe they are entitled to such a marriage.)  The man they settle for may not be rich, but most women in Japan who want to marry at 24, do.  (Which is why whenever you watch a lot of a Magical Girl/High School anime, there's usually a female teacher lamenting her prospects because she's like over 25, but rarely over 30.  It's so common that it's been turned into a TV trope.)

Also, they believe in a rather adorable myth:  That if you marry a Western man (which a lot of Japanese girls want, because they are perceived as more aggressive) your union will be blessed with blue eyed and blonde babies!  No matter the hair and eye colour of the male.

Japanese men in the workplace spend so much time there that a few women have outright admitted to having a boyfriend (read: Boytoy) on the side, because they don't see their husbands enough.

And the Japanese male still has the dubious honour of being the highest risk group for suicide in the world.  Which is pretty amazing because men in general are so well off and have so many privileges that they have a 3x greater chance of committing suicide than women do.

Which worries Japan so much that it's governmental body is trying to figure out incentives on how to get their own men to marry and keep the Japanese people 'pure'.

So forgive me if I have little respect for any organization that promotes on gender over the other when I see little tidbits of this sort of information.

Another thing to remember about Japan: It's probably harder to sell marriage in a place where blowjob bars are a legal thing.

I miss Japan.

Another thing to remember about Japan: most of what you hear about it is bullshit.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;957814The average Japanese woman wants to have a career until she is 24 and then wants to marry a, preferably rich, man.  (And for whatever reason, they honestly believe they are entitled to such a marriage.)  The man they settle for may not be rich, but most women in Japan who want to marry at 24, do.

Being married at 24 was extremely important for cultural reasons. It used to be that you found your spouse while you are in college (it was often viewed as the reason to send women to college). Or you met them at work, got married by 24, and then worked part time or quit and become a parent. This was still a common expectation into the 90s (the average age of marriage was starting to slip later and later, even then), though everything was turned on its head as their economy tanked.

There is a horrible label in Japan referring to some women as "Christmas Cake". Christmas has sort of been marketed as a kind of romantic day (fewer than 1% Christian), except for kids. They will sometimes have a Christmas cake, which is made with whipped cream instead of frosting. Because of that, you need to eat it up fairly soon before it goes bad. Why do these women get called Christmas Cake? Because after the late date of the 25th, nobody wants it. And then granny or a local match maker try to set up an "omiai" marriage. This has become less and less common over the last two decades.

Marriage by age 24 isn't a silly thing - it was an expectation of women.

What the fuck happened to this thread?

Quote from: trechriron;957840What the fuck happened to this thread?

Apparently Japan happened? :confused:

The short of it is. Pointless publicity gag gets some people riled and other people looking at the publishers stuff.
It may be even outrage advertising because Jesus wept we havent got that in fucking everything enough now.
Even if it was well intentioned, and it may well be, the way is was promoted was bound to come across wrong to some.

Why does it seem Japan cornered the market on crazy social aspects?

It is their min/max tradeoff for inventing katanas?

Quote from: trechriron;957840What the fuck happened to this thread?

Gojira!!

[video=youtube_share;LR4XNqrqxrU]https://youtu.be/LR4XNqrqxrU[/youtube]

Quote from: Spinachcat;957855Gojira!!

Ask and ye shall receive...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/155445342/tumblr_nesj6caxHd1s2wio8o1_500.gif)

Giant monsters are woefully under-represented as game designers.

Quote from: trechriron;957840What the fuck happened to this thread?

What the fuck happened to this site overall? :-/

Quote from: trechriron;957840What the fuck happened to this thread?

It got the treatment it deserved for the subject matter it brought up.

[video=youtube;Mh5LY4Mz15o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o[/youtube]

Quote from: trechriron;957840What the fuck happened to this thread?

You did.  You went on about a bullshit goal for a company who has no idea how the real world works.  The problem is...  That the ad solves a problem that doesn't actually exist.  You wanted to make it into some big 'hurrah' thing when quite frankly quotas only harm.

I'd rather someone be able to do the job get it, rather than by virtue of their skin colour or having a penis or not.

But then, the entire West has been sliding into a society of whiny babies who want everything handed to them with no work required, where places of learning are for 'safe spaces' rather than challenging oneself or one's ideas.  Where one half of the world's population whines about how they've been oppressed when 90% of the world has always revolved around them.

No one wants to work, or achieve anything anymore.  Meritocracies are seen as a bad thing, instead of allowing humanity to grow and learn, we want complacency and 'security'.  Where children are crushed and given gold stars for participating where no one loses and every one is given an overweeningly over-inflated sense of entitlement because everything had been handed to them instead of earning it.

This little ad is a symptom of it.  It's garbage, pointless and insulting to every single PERSON who ever wants to be a writer.

Fuck, I'm done with this topic.  Bleagh.  It's like Tumblr and their mental sickness propagation.

Quote from: Dionysus;957771Why are you dragging race into this?

Hmmmmmm, lemme think . . .

Quote from: The_Shadow;957615I'm thinking of young men graduating and going into the workplace, and realising that they are far from privileged, they are making less than their female peers and in many cases being actively discriminated against, for example by HR with hard or soft quotas who will choose a someone other than a white male every time given the choice.

. . . oh yeah, that was it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;957864Ask and ye shall receive...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/155445342/tumblr_nesj6caxHd1s2wio8o1_500.gif)

That's pretty much all my dancing skills.

Not kidding either.

Quote from: Spinachcat;958087That's pretty much all my dancing skills.

Not kidding either.

Having had to dance in a heavy costume... I can sympathize with the big G. :cool:

Back on topic...

So anyone think that this would not have been a problem had they not worded it as they did?

Quote from: Omega;958097Having had to dance in a heavy costume... I can sympathize with the big G. :cool:

Back on topic...

So anyone think that this would not have been a problem had they not worded it as they did?

It would have been a problem.

Some people are sexist buttnuggets.  Some people are not sexist buttnuggets.  Gamers are a subset of people.

Quote from: CRKrueger;957864Ask and ye shall receive...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/155445342/tumblr_nesj6caxHd1s2wio8o1_500.gif)

Most useful post in the entire fucking thread.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;957753I have to disagree, cbump. Watching people with white skin and dicks claim to be 'victims' is fucking hilarious.

Heh...okay, maybe I'm wrong on that one.:-)

Quote from: cranebump;958167Heh...okay, maybe I'm wrong on that one.:-)

I get mildly amused. When an MRA starts their whinging I'm usually, "Thanks boys, but men don't actually need your help. We're fine."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;958162It would have been a problem.

Some people are sexist buttnuggets.  Some people are not sexist buttnuggets.  Gamers are a subset of people.

Sadly true.

Quote from: Krimson;958172I get mildly amused. When an MRA starts their whinging I'm usually, "Thanks boys, but men don't actually need your help. We're fine."

Bury your head into the sand, do it!  Men committing suicide at three times the rate women do?  Perfectly fine!  State-sanction genital mutilation (Circumcision)?  Perfectly fine!  Men still being about 98% of workplace deaths?  Perfectly fine!  Women outliving men by about 7 years?  Perfectly fine!  80% of divorce cases end up with the man losing access to his child, and having to pay for it?  Perfectly fine!  Men having 60% longer criminal sentences handed to them compared to women who commit THE EXACT SAME crime?  Perfectly fine!

Why?  Because men DESERVE IT!  All of them!  Including YOU!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;958175Bury your head into the sand, do it!  Men committing suicide at three times the rate women do?  Perfectly fine!  State-sanction genital mutilation (Circumcision)?  Perfectly fine!  Men still being about 98% of workplace deaths?  Perfectly fine!  Women outliving men by about 7 years?  Perfectly fine!  80% of divorce cases end up with the man losing access to his child, and having to pay for it?  Perfectly fine!  Men having 60% longer criminal sentences handed to them compared to women who commit THE EXACT SAME crime?  Perfectly fine!

Why?  Because men DESERVE IT!  All of them!  Including YOU!

Bu..but boobies man, boobies.

To be clear, my beef was about boys complaining that education is rigged against them. It's a bullshit excuse. But, as for the specific questions, issues, etc., raised here.

Quote from: Spinachcat;957754BTW Cranebump, do you teach at an all boys high school?

No. Which is why I can directly compare the male-female achievement gap I have personally witnessed in the schools I have taught.

QuoteI taught years ago (both SpEd and regular Ed, K through 12th, mostly middle school) and I never saw this gender disparity in effort you claim. Boys and girls goof off, just differently. Teen boys with adrenal hormones pumping through them are far jumpier and physical, but the teen girls needed constant redirection from chit chat and socializing in class. As for homework, the return rate of quality work was abysmal for both genders.

Maybe, but the rate of girls going on to college is significantly higher. I could pull quite a but of data, but here's just one article (https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/03/28/look-how-women-outnumber-men-college-campuses-nationwide/YROqwfCPSlKPtSMAzpWloK/story.html), gleaned from one search. Check out the enrollment rate of boys vs. girls in advanced classes (also, albeit off subject, the enrollment rate of minorities in GT programs or advanced classes). There's a host of evidence concerning this subject.

QuoteIn my teaching experience, the successful student was a product of an involved home (whether parent, parents, or grandparents) and there was no slant from gender. Unfortunately, there were definitely major differences in number of involved families based on ethnic group.  

This is true, though I've had contrasting experiences involving family support. I've seen no general difference in parental involvement based on ethnicity. And bear in mind, about 90% of my time teaching has been at minority-majority schools.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;957768Wow, you are clearly out of touch, aren't you?

I think the fact that I've been in the profession as long as I have means I can probably find the pulse of what actually goes on in public education better than someone who hasn't been around can (that would likely mean you, sir).

QuoteUnfair?  Well, it is because it doesn't take into account ability or actual skill in the topic, but the more important part?  It's DISCRIMINATION BASED ON THE INDIVIDUAL'S SEX.  You do know what they call that, don't you?

When those who have had the historic advantage complain they are being ostracized, attack, and/or dealt with unfairly, I first wonder, (a) how much Fox News do they watch? and (b) what are they afraid of?

Quote(Cut pointless, clueless drivel about not knowing how society works outside of his own little Happy Land Bubble.)

So, you're best response is to assume those who disagree with you live in a "Happy Land" Bubble? Care to explain what "Happy Land" is? Exactly what type of  land do you think I live in? Was it "Happy Land" when I served in the military for 8 years? Are the under-resourced, under-served schools I've worked in for two decades considered "happy land?" Is THAT what you're getting at it? Might explain it, because I don't fucking know what "Happy Land" is.

P.S. And, by the way, you fucking twit, my life experience is just as valid as yours. So, I'd appreciate it if you stuck to the issues, rather than your obvious, knee-jerk anti-SJW screed.

QuoteEven if it breaks a law that was designed specifically to benefit women and minorities.  Bravo, someone who clearly doesn't understand irony.
And you know what I find hilarious?  That somehow have 52% of the world's population is a 'minority'.

If it were all about population, the situation in South Africa, indeed, the whole fucking British Empire, wold never have existed. It's about control, and women historically haven'd had it. Hell, they couldn't even vote in the U.S. for, what, 144 years?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;958175Bury your head into the sand, do it!  Men committing suicide at three times the rate women do?  Perfectly fine!  State-sanction genital mutilation (Circumcision)?  Perfectly fine!  Men still being about 98% of workplace deaths?  Perfectly fine!  Women outliving men by about 7 years?  Perfectly fine!  80% of divorce cases end up with the man losing access to his child, and having to pay for it?  Perfectly fine!  Men having 60% longer criminal sentences handed to them compared to women who commit THE EXACT SAME crime?  Perfectly fine!

Why?  Because men DESERVE IT!  All of them!  Including YOU!

First I'd have a talk with one of the three big Abrahamic religions about the first one. Good luck with that. As for the others, that sounds like problems of poor life decisions over gender. I have never once seen a female coworker stupid enough to ride around on a powered pallet jack. Out living men? Yeah totally a conscious lifestyle decision often involving tobacco and alcohol. Divorce requires a conscious decision to marry in the first place. As for prison sentences... Have they tried not committing crimes? That might help.

Quote from: Dionysus;957751Well obviously that anecdotal evidence is good enough for a blanket judgement of men vs. women, AND there's no other possible explanation other than "boys are worse" /s

I never said there weren't exceptions. And boys are performing worse than girls, in general (assuming you can accept a generality--if you can't, there's no reason to discuss the issue, because you're simply narrowing the topic toward irresolvability)

Man, I'm just telling you what I've seen with my own goddamned eyes, over a long period of time, with a number of students in excess of, at least 2,000, I think. And if you give a teenager that type of bullshit ammunition, i.e., "oh, it's not your lack of effort--you're just wired differently" then they're going to use it as an excuse.  I'm a professional excuse-hearer, and dismisser. Boys, we're not measuring up. We need to do better. How about instead of blaming "the system," we take some personal accountability and get it together?

Look, would you rather me try to push your son to perform? Or should I write off his lack of effort and excuses as a product of his wiring? Because that's the case you're making, whether you recognize it or not.

Jesus H. yodeling Christ in a gorilla suit.

I can't imagine why some women find the gaming community unwelcoming.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;958175Bury your head into the sand, do it!  Men committing suicide at three times the rate women do?  Perfectly fine!  State-sanction genital mutilation (Circumcision)?  Perfectly fine!  Men still being about 98% of workplace deaths?  Perfectly fine!  Women outliving men by about 7 years?  Perfectly fine!  80% of divorce cases end up with the man losing access to his child, and having to pay for it?  Perfectly fine!  Men having 60% longer criminal sentences handed to them compared to women who commit THE EXACT SAME crime?  Perfectly fine!

Why?  Because men DESERVE IT!  All of them!  Including YOU!

Because being a Manly Man means not caring about other Men. Compassion is for the weak fluffy helpless critters like Girls.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;958175Bury your head into the sand, do it!  Men committing suicide at three times the rate women do?  Perfectly fine!  State-sanction genital mutilation (Circumcision)?  Perfectly fine!  Men still being about 98% of workplace deaths?  Perfectly fine!  Women outliving men by about 7 years?  Perfectly fine!  80% of divorce cases end up with the man losing access to his child, and having to pay for it?  Perfectly fine!  Men having 60% longer criminal sentences handed to them compared to women who commit THE EXACT SAME crime?  Perfectly fine!

Why?  Because men DESERVE IT!  All of them!  Including YOU!

It's the "Male Stoicism" thing. It appears to be pretty hardwired rather than cultural since its extended across various societies and times. As as species the hardships, inequities and problems that specifically focus on men/boys generally aren't taken as seriously, usually to the point complaining or even just pointing them out is seen as whining and "unmanly". One theory is that since Biologically males aren't as important as females to species survival and are more expendable from that stand point social attitudes and behaviors are going to tend to reflect that reality and, as is often typical with humans, we dress it up in fancy trappings to rationalize it.

I have a question: when will women ask for equal standards in physical fitness tests for the military or for women to be required to register with Selective Service?

Quote from: Nexus;958226It's the "Male Stoicism" thing. It appears to be pretty hardwired rather than cultural since its extended across various societies and times. As as species the hardships, inequities and problems that specifically focus on men/boys generally aren't taken as seriously, usually to the point complaining or even just pointing them out is seen as whining and "unmanly". Biologically males aren't as important as females to species survival and are more expendable from that stand point. Social attitudes and behaviors tend to reflect that reality and, as is often typical with humans, we dress it up in fancy trappings to rationalize it.

Well, it's a damn good thing I can choose my gender!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;958203Jesus H. yodeling Christ in a gorilla suit.

I can't imagine why some women find the gaming community unwelcoming.

The same reason some men do, probably. Peeps gunbe assholes.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;958228Well, it's a damn good thing I can choose my gender!

Well, it is just a social construct. ;)

A truly "equal" society is probably a pipe dream, at least in regard to sex/gender. Too much social and biological baggage. The best we can do is probably understand and acknowledge where some of our biases are coming from and try to take that into account in a more rational manner when we can. But judging from things so far.... Good Luck with that.

The other option seems to be waiting for the species to change enough that its no longer an issue. But arguably that would mean becoming something other than human.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;958229The same reason some men do, probably. Peeps gunbe assholes.

Yeah. Some of any group are going to find a particular community unwelcoming for various reasons. There's only certain times it seems to matter to large numbers of people. Some women I've known found TBP community unwelcoming because they didn't slot into their notion of a WOMAN GAMER should think and want.

Quote from: Nexus;958230Well, it is just a social construct. ;)

A truly "equal" society is probably a pipe dream, at least in regard to sex/gender. Too much social and biological baggage. The best we can do is probably understand and acknowledge where some of our biases are coming from and try to take that into account in a more rational manner when we can. But judging from things so far.... Good Luck with that.

The other option seems to be waiting for the species to change enough that its no longer an issue. But arguably that would mean becoming something other than human.

I'm glad you caught my snark. :D

Quote from: Nexus;958231Yeah. Some of any group are going to find a particular community unwelcoming for various reasons. There's only certain times it seems to matter to large numbers of people. Some women I've known found TBP community unwelcoming because they didn't slot into their notion of a WOMAN GAMER should think and want.

Shanna Germain should be on the endangered species list over there but look how she was treated.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;958227I have a question: when will women ask for equal standards in physical fitness tests for the military or for women to be required to register with Selective Service?

To quote James Woods in The Hard Way: "When my asshole learns to chew gum."

Quote from: cranebump;958197boys are performing worse than girls, in general. Boys, we're not measuring up. We need to do better.

By "worse" you are simply saying that as square pegs they leave messy paint streaks on your beautiful round holes when pounded in.

You hate boys and yet you "educate" them?

Quote from: CRKrueger;958268To quote James Woods in The Hard Way: "When my asshole learns to chew gum."

A) Pretty much and B) I am now watching that film. :)

Quote from: cranebump;958190When those who have had the historic advantage complain they are being ostracized, attack, and/or dealt with unfairly, I first wonder, (a) how much Fox News do they watch? and (b) what are they afraid of?

And when someone dismisses discrimination with "you have the historical advantage so shut up" I have to wonder how much they go to tumblr and why they hate white people/men so much.

Quote from: Krimson;958192Divorce requires a conscious decision to marry in the first place.

Your point being?

Quote from: Krimson;958192As for prison sentences... Have they tried not committing crimes? That might help.

"Have black people tried not committing crime? Then they wouldn't be shot at by police".

Seriously why are you defending this? There's no possible reason why women should get shorter sentences than men for the same crime.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956646If you want to split the pie evenly then women have a lot of dying to do. Men are 80% of suicides and drug overdoses, 90% of the prison population and the vast majority of the homeless population too. Oh, and wars. Next war, for social justice, I want combat deaths to be 100% female. And amputations. And keep going like that war after war until we've equalized the exact number of combat deaths between men and women throughout history. Gotta split that pie, bro. No whining! Don't get pissy, OK? Now women can learn what it's always been like men when they're getting bayonetted.

Or we can have a look at benefits versus sacrifice, authority versus responsibility like reasonable people might.

In future, if a thread like this is on the main forum, please stick more closely to addressing the subject at hand and how it relates to the GAMING HOBBY only. Thanks!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;956742Did you know that the West, in fact, pioneered by America, is the first group of nations that have outlawed slavery?  And that it's still practiced in places like Asia and Africa?

There's a lot of misinformation flying about, and what's even worse is that we have people who believe it, no proof necessary.  But then, that would require doing research and thinking for ourselves, wouldn't it?

In future, if the thread is in the main forum, please try to stick more closely to the direct subject of the controversy as it relates to the GAMING HOBBY. Thanks.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;956782http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.full.pdf

"National hiring experiments reveal 2:1 faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track"

I realize you were responding here to a post which had already veered from the specific subject, but in future if the thread is in the Main Forum, please try to stick more closely to the specific subject as it relates to the Gaming Hobby. Thanks.

Quote from: cranebump;956790I think slavery was outlawed in Britain before it was outlawed in the U.S. (pretty sure? I'll have to dig around to verify) And saying "Well, we don't do it anymore, but others do" is like saying, "Hey, I may be a serial abuser, but I'm still nicer than your incarcerated, serial-killer boyfriend." Any of us can look good standing next to Murder Von Baby-Killer man.  But, you're right--it pays to look into things, including entertaining opposing views. I 'preciate ya, even if I don't see eye to eye.

BIG ASS TANGENT: We can't drive a single sin back to the creation, because we are metaphorically born in sin, and flawed. We trust in the better angels of our nature, but verify through laws and codes. We have warts and scars. No one has all the answers, and that's good. I think back to Jacob Bronowski, writing about what happens when people become certain about anything.* I just know that we made a promise, and haven't always done right by it. Maybe some folks seem a bit overzealous to compensate for those failed promises, sometimes in ways that seem small, or even ridiculous to others. But I cannot fault someone who wants to take action, without real malice, based on what they perceive is true and just, and in line with their beliefs. Certainly, they're doing more than I am when it comes to these things. I don't know how all this will end up, but I have assurance in the substance of things hoped for, trust in evidence of things not yet seen.

We live in crazy times, man. You stick around long enough, though, you find out shit works out. Best comment here, I think, is the one that more or less says, "Bravo for trying, GR. If the product is great, I'll be sure to tune in. It it ain't, no bigs."

*"The Ascent of Man," chapter=Knowledge or Certainty.

Once again, in future when a thread is in the main forum, please try to stick more closely to the specific subject as hand as it relates to the Gaming Hobby! Thanks.

Quote from: jhkim;956798OK, this is totally off-topic, but it is bugging me.


I know that in Korea, emancipation began in 1775, and in 1801 nearly all government slaves were freed, although full abolition was not until 1886 - 1891. The origins of the abolition movement there have nothing to do with abolition in the West.

In the West, the pioneer in modern abolition was Haiti, which completely outlawed slavery as part of their war for independence 1791 to 1804. That thoroughly shook all of the colonial powers with its success. Britain outlawed the slave trade in 1807, and outlawed slavery in 1833 - long before the U.S.

I'd suggest doing a little research yourself.

I get that this was posted when a tangent had already developed, but in future when a thread is in the main forum, please try to stick more closely to the specific subject as hand as it relates to the Gaming Hobby! Thanks.

OK, so I've explicitly cited some examples above from the earlier part of where the thread started to go off-track. But this applies to EVERYONE:  threads about controversial subjects IN THE GAMING HOBBY are allowed on the Main Forum.  But I want there to be some discretion on the part of the posters, to try as much as possible to stick to the SPECIFIC SUBJECT at hand.  You can talk all you like about Green Ronin's policy, and related issues in the gaming hobby, and even mention examples from the wider political world IF you relate them back to this specific issue at hand. But please don't make posts that veer off into a larger non-gaming-related debate.

I'm closing this thread.  If someone really wants to start a new thread about Green Ronin's announcement, they can do so, but the same rules still apply.

For the record, Green Ronin has worn their Left-coast champagne-SJW politics on their sleeve since forever. None of this should come as a shock to anyone. I can't really judge on that question of whether it's legal or not, but I do think it's stupid. Not because hiring women is stupid, but because it's so blatantly obvious to me that as usual, their whole deal is about BEING SEEN to be MAKING A BIG DEAL about their 'brave' political position (which is exactly 0% 'brave' in any way for who they are, where they live, or who their audience is; it's just boring).

They're just self-serving posers.