Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956700I'm not conceding your point on all these men writing romance novels. I truly hope you are wrong. My grandmother had an entire wall with paper back romance novels she had bought at yard sales. I don't remember ever seeing one that said "written by a man" but who knows.

It's something I've long heard from women I know in the publishing business: http://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blogs/questions-and-quandaries/publishing/are-men-writing-romance

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956700I'm not conceding your point on all these men writing romance novels. I truly hope you are wrong. My grandmother had an entire wall with paper back romance novels she had bought at yard sales. I don't remember ever seeing one that said "written by a man" but who knows.

Regardless, if you are correct, you just prove my point that the barriers to men writing romance novels are more tangible than women writing gaming stuff. This is just not happening. There is no super secret publishing room full of geeky men saying "no. you can't come in" to any woman, let alone one with a half way decent idea. It just is not happening....

A *LOT* of romance writers are male. Romance writing is a formula (like most genre fiction) and a lot of male writers churn out romance books under female pseudonyms to supplement their income/cut their teeth. If your'e good at it, it can be quite lucrative. I wouldn't say most romance writers are men, but there's enough of them to say its conservatively 30-40% (my ballpark).

You're pointing at this curious phenomenon of people looking at the surface of a "thing" and questioning the numerical makeup of that "thing". People tend to ignore deeper possibilities when convenient narratives that require no evidence other than the appearance of the "thing" itself. Look - there a bunch of they must be conspiring to keep out all the (reverse pun intended). As if there is nothing else that might explain it. This is the danger of identity politics though - there is never a sufficient explanation other than that surface-view.

Quote from: Baeraad;956691So... does it make sense to specifically hire a woman for a particular project? I dunno, maybe? A little? It depends on just how deep this game plans to go into in-depth roleplaying and complex issues. A woman might indeed go at those slightly differently than a man would. On the other hand, if it's just another game of hitting ogres with a sword, well, I don't think that there are even the most subtle of different gendered approaches to that.

I've gamed with women who were just as combat/action oriented as the guys. I've gamed with women who were into the talkiy rpg stuff more than fighting. It's almost like... women aren't some kind of hive mind and are instead, individuals.

The application is a dumb one, ignoring the legality of it for a moment.

Trying to push an agenda never works.  It's why Affirmative Action harms business and companies.  If someone doesn't want to work in an industry (like women in STEM fields) they shouldn't be forced to, because of the political climate.  All it does it is flood the industry with incompetent and unhappy workers.  Let the people who WANT to do the job do it, and guess what, the work will be better for it.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956700This is just not happening. There is no super secret publishing room full of geeky men saying "no. you can't come in" to any woman, let alone one with a half way decent idea. It just is not happening...

Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

The corollary issue of people not "feeling accepted" has blossomed into a identity-group comprised of lots of groups that likewise do not "feel accepted" that has created a narrative that anyone that doesn't agree with that narrative, jargon, uniform, dispostion on any level or topic, in support of their feelings - completely free of any facts contrary to the matter, are somehow evil.

The irony of this position is it's created its counterpart that now likewise feel "not accepted" by the aforementioend group, as if alienating the majority will have some sort of positive effect, when in reality it's just punitive and revenge motivated. Not to mention, often hypocritical.

But hey - that's why I think being a rational individual that doesn't hold onto ones surface-appearance or anyone else's is a much better position to have. I can't control other people's feelings. And nor do I want to.

I have to be quick....

Quote from: Simlasa;956702It's something I've long heard from women I know in the publishing business: http://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blogs/questions-and-quandaries/publishing/are-men-writing-romance

Quote from: From Simlasa's Link;956702So there you have it. While the road for men may be a little bumpier in their quest to write and sell fiction than it is for women, the road is there. And like with all genres, great writing will win out—no matter who writes it.

Yes I agree.

Quote from: tenbones;956703This is the danger of identity politics though

No, I think all identity politics are lame, which was my point from the get go. Plus it is a sucker's game:

Quote from: CRKrueger;956668Heh, countdown to white guys Whitesplaining racism to the Japanese guy.

Quote from: tenbones;956684Oh I'm waiting for that one... heh.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

You mean "stinks" like not hiring cat piss men? Yeah I can get with that. But that is not an actual impediment to women working in the field. Just because I am a man does not mean I get to choose all of my co-wrokers and dictate their hygiene, dress, diet, or personal thoughts.

Green Ronin isn't just "hanging out the welcome sign". The reason you might agree with what I and Kreuger are saying is because it makes sense. If a business runs itself like it should, it will default the best product, most efficiently produced, at the best price (all things considered). Green Ronin is trying to apply nonsensical SJW attributes to their business in the form of a lame marketing ploy because feelz....

That is their right, I'm just exercising my right to call it out.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956651That's fine, but it has to be incentivized or you lose it.

I find it to be its own incentive.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956659Of course White Men have advantages.  That's not the question.  The question is, can we force Justice and Correction through societal engineering via Identity Politics?  Is that going to help or is it going to make it worse and actually take longer due to invoking backlashes and Culture Wars? {Glances at the White House}. Have we made the progress we have due to enforced mandates or the advances of technology?  Hand up or hand out?  Righting a wrong or creating cultures of victimhood?  There's evidence the short-term good, which looks good for election statistics, may be doing long-term cultural harm.  

The point is, we need to stop and think, rather than jump to the standing ovation.  Could anyone other than a black woman have written Beloved or The Color Purple?  I don't know, but if we're going to get rid of anything done by a writer who did not directly experience what they are writing about, then we're going to lose 90% of everything ever written as well as admit that human empathy and creativity do not exist.

Yeah, the "culture of victimhood" part is the one that worries me most.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9566291. Finding a more diverse writing pool for RPGs is good if...you believe someone's "journey", "voice" etc about their personal life will somehow critically inform their writing and be the key element.
Was Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk game somehow fundamentally informed by him being a Cisgendered Heterosexual Black Man born in the 50's?  If any of those things were different, would CYberpunk have been better or worse?  If so, which ones and how? Be specific.

I can't say what difference his race might have made, but I'd assume if Mike Pondsmith was gay, he would have been less likely to include the slang terms "input" and "output" as things that go together.
Would it have been a better or worse game for it? Likely, no. Would it have been different? Probably yes, in some subtle ways.

Quote from: tenbones;956684Oh I'm waiting for that one... heh.

You mean it hasn't happened yet:D?

Quote from: Baeraad;956691I doubt it affects the quality per se, but I think it definitely makes a difference, albeit maybe not as much of one as the real diversity fanatics seem to think. It's not "we have all these White People books, we need more Black People books." It's more like, everyone's background and personal issues affect how they think and what sort of experiences they can draw on for their work.

Yeah, this.

My take on Green Ronin's game is - I approve them taking a positive action in line with their previously declared views. And if it's a good game that interests me, I'm going to get it, because that's my previously declared view:p!

Quote from: CRKrueger;956667If you weren't replying to me, ok, if you were, then please kiss my ass, right in the crack, feel free to use tongue.

I didn't reply to anyone.

If the jackboot fits, wear it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956667As an isolated event, this is a good thing.  What's the desired result?  Finding a talented RPG writer and give them work and exposure they currently do not have.  That's good for them, good for the company, good for gamers who buy the product.

Yes it is.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956667However, think about it...if this person hasn't attempted to do anything like this before, then why would they come up now?

Ask Carolyn Janice Cherryh or Donna J Barr, who hid their identities as women behind initials to gain acceptance in sci fi and comics.

Quote from: Ashakyre;956694I agree, believe it or not. We can't ignore the sins of our ancestors . Any of them. We need to go back to where it all started.

Africa.

I want reparations from Ethiopians for driving my people out of paradise and turning us into albino mutants. Every time a non african person gets skin cancer, an african person should pay for it.

Then we have to calculate what society would be like if no one left Ethiopia. And then take steps to create that society.

For starters, I think everyone on the planet should move back. Back to Ethiopia. All of us. Let's try this history thing again and get it right this time.

You're being facetious, of course, but this really misses the point concerning slavery in America. The United States preached "all are created equal," but then allowed slavery to exist, even so. If anything, it should be charged with miss representing their product.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956720No, I think all identity politics are lame, which was my point from the get go. Plus it is a sucker's game:

I don't think we're saying anything different.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956720Green Ronin isn't just "hanging out the welcome sign". The reason you might agree with what I and Kreuger are saying is because it makes sense. If a business runs itself like it should, it will default the best product, most efficiently produced, at the best price (all things considered). Green Ronin is trying to apply nonsensical SJW attributes to their business in the form of a lame marketing ploy because feelz....

That is their right, I'm just exercising my right to call it out.

This seems obvious. But I'm not going to pretend that it matters to me beyond this discussion because...

I want people, writ-large, to pursue their dreams and find happiness. I want people to understand their self-worth has precisely zero to do with the opinion's of others. No one is guaranteed anything in life. I do believe you're pretty much guaranteed to suffer - but how much depends on the individual, generally. And I stand by my the notion that we're not here to "play it safe." My desire for the rational "eudaimonia" does not include worrying about people's feelings they choose to inflict upon themselves. Nor do I care about useless gestures for the sake of appearances at the expense of good reasoning.

But I won't deny another person(s) right be stupid as long as they don't inflict it on me.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956720You mean "stinks" like not hiring cat piss men?

No, nothing literal or specific.
Like, there's a wide variety of subtle messages we pick up on and interpret as 'unfriendly'... correctly or not. Being TOO friendly can be just as off putting... "Why are these guys so happy to see me?!!!"

QuoteGreen Ronin isn't just "hanging out the welcome sign".

I'm not arguing for or against GR's 'talent show'.
Some contests have restrictions on who can enter, it's usually aimed at giving some group a chance that otherwise could not compete. If there were a contest with an age limit of 12 I wouldn't scream, "AGEISM!" because there is a generally recognized divide in resources and experience there.
Same with dividing boxers along weight and sex... various athletic events. It's saying that one group can't fairly compete against ALL groups... so we set them apart.

So yeah, I think having a contest 'just for fat old white guys' could be seen as sending a 'can't compete' sort of message... but could also be taken as a welcome mat to someone who doesn't think quite the way I do.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough.

Feels aren't reals.  To use teen parlance.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

It implies that there is a barrier.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

Never attribute malice when simple human stupidity is the answer.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;956732Ask Carolyn Janice Cherryh or Donna J Barr, who hid their identities as women behind initials to gain acceptance in sci fi and comics.

Those are good examples from that era. Do you think that's true of today Sci-Fi/Fantasy market? I don't. My wife and I are in the business - it's nothing really like that anymore (unless the author purposely is angling for something) You can find the same sorts of "encouragement" from the major publishers looking for "diversity" in fiction these days than they're looking for classic "adventure" stuff. And it's gotten political there too.

Ironically, the exact same thing *is* true of the Romance genre. Male writers sneak around doing exactly this in order to write Romance novels because 98% of the readership is female and they assume all the writers of romance fiction are women.

I'm not saying this to say "poor men" - I know for a reasonable fact, that the male authors that engage in this aren't wringing their hands about it either. But it is curious that this still happens to this overwhelmingly larger dichotomy exists in this genre vs. others. Yet you never hear anyone grouse about it. And it's because of marketing and psychology - not because of overt sexism. The women readership of the romance genre are no more sexist (to me) than the men that consume military-fiction in similar percentages. But when you have people obsessed about those discrepancies and politicize it to soothe their own sense of self-worth, this is what you get.

Quote from: cranebump;956733You're being facetious, of course, but this really misses the point concerning slavery in America. The United States preached "all are created equal," but then allowed slavery to exist, even so. If anything, it should be charged with miss representing their product.

Did you know that the West, in fact, pioneered by America, is the first group of nations that have outlawed slavery?  And that it's still practiced in places like Asia and Africa?

There's a lot of misinformation flying about, and what's even worse is that we have people who believe it, no proof necessary.  But then, that would require doing research and thinking for ourselves, wouldn't it?