Quote from: Ashakyre;956627Legal change tends to follow cultural change. Judges and politicians aren't going to address men's issues until cultural attitudes shift. Until then there's always legal dodges they can make.

And where does legal funding come from? Discussing issues. Raising awareness. On the internet. But you're just trying to close off discussion.

Yeah, that's exactly how the SJWs justify their endless whining, too. "We're screeching and howling for a better tomorrow!" How well has that worked out for them so far, hmm? Oh, that's right - they managed to make themselves so hated that people went and elected a President who seems like he was custom-made in a laboratory for maximum SJW displeasure, just to spite them.

Perhaps you should reconsider the efficiency of your tactics, is what I'm saying. Because right now, far from making me more sympathetic to your cause, you're making me actively want to go out and hug a feminist.*



* And then she'd file sexual harassment charges, because if it's one thing feminists hate it's weird guys going up to them and hugging them for no particular reason. And then I'd be in all sorts of trouble. So cut it out!

Quote from: Krimson;956626One of the MRAs could put his money where his mouth is and take legal action. Griping on the internet doesn't accomplish anything.

It does accomplish something. Creating this situation causes buzz on the internet for a game that otherwise will probably not distinguish itself from others. It probably did a lot for the 'vagina' cover design for Swords and Wizardry. They can virtue-signal and get buzz at the same time, and pull back in the Blue Rose crowd, too.

I applaud their clever marketing technique. But it seems really quite hard to differentiate yourself nowadays, and if the message is about the message around the product, rather than the product itself, then it just tells me that Green Ronin isn't producing particularly interesting products anymore.

Quote from: JeremyR;956597Is there a list of them? I'm curious because I honestly can't think of an early RPG written by a woman. Some modules (the first module was done by a husband and wife team), but not an RPG.

Quote from: Simlasa;956640What are some good gaming blogs written by women?
AFAIK most all the ones I read, save one (Scrap Princess's), are by guys... but those are often where I become aware of people making cool things that I want to buy/fund.

THIS is what I believe we should be hitting on. Boost the signal on woman creators. Post links to woman creators you appreciate OR you just discovered looking for female creators. It's a constructive activity. I also think the question by CJKrueger is a good one - does the author's gender, gender identity, sexuality, ethnicity, religion or other identifying characteristics affect the quality or even color the work produced by that creator?

Quote from: CRKrueger;956659Of course White Men have advantages.  That's not the question.  The question is, can we force Justice and Correction through societal engineering via Identity Politics?  Is that going to help or is it going to make it worse and actually take longer due to invoking backlashes and Culture Wars? {Glances at the White House}. Have we made the progress we have due to enforced mandates or the advances of technology?  Hand up or hand out?  Righting a wrong or creating cultures of victimhood?  There's evidence the short-term good, which looks good for election statistics, may be doing long-term cultural harm.

I think we just don't know, yet, the outcome of social advancement programs. For me, I'd rather help out as much as possible. I believe the average white person is completely in the dark concerning the experiences of minorities, even vicariously, through reading about such experiences, and, as such, cannot understand exactly the issues facing those unlike them. Further, I believe we too easily forgive the crimes of our ancestors because, "It wasn't me." I think we can admit grave injustice has been done, and still find a way to move forward. Like you, I am uncertain as to how to do that. I feel like a lot of this is part and parcel with income inequality and that, if we address that, we won't have to deal so much with giving a hand up or out, because poor people can break out of their cycle of poverty, which would be a boon for the historically disenfranchised, as well as the current.

QuoteThe point is, we need to stop and think, rather than jump to the standing ovation.  Could anyone other than a black woman have written Beloved or The Color Purple?  I don't know, but if we're going to get rid of anything done by a writer who did not directly experience what they are writing about, then we're going to lose 90% of everything ever written as well as admit that human empathy and creativity do not exist.

I don't think anyone's advocating that. I know I certainly wouldn't.

Quote from: cranebump;956679I feel like a lot of this is part and parcel with income inequality and that, if we address that, we won't have to deal so much with giving a hand up or out, because poor people can break out of their cycle of poverty, which would be a boon for the historically disenfranchised, as well as the current.

In that we're in perfect agreement.

Quote from: cranebump;956679I don't think anyone's advocating that. I know I certainly wouldn't.

Well that's the thing.  If you say we specifically want a "woman's voice", you're are somewhat implying there is something about that voice, you simply cannot get with a man.  The whole concept of cultural appropriation is partly based on this.  If you're Not X-race you can't do X-activity.  Now certainly, people with different life experiences are going to bring different biases and perceptions to the table, that much is clear.  However, that doesn't mean we should assume that someone who hasn't directly had that experience can't possibly come to know and understand that experience.

Take the movie Get Out.  It's a dark satirical horror/comedy about race relations in America...with a British black actor playing the lead.  A lot of American black actors spoke out, claiming that given the exact same script, director and cast, that a British Black couldn't bring to the performance what an American Black could.  Which, if you know anything about acting, demeans if not defeats the entire purpose of the art itself.

Either humans have Understanding, Empathy, and Imagination, and can come to understand the experiences and point of view of another without having lived that same life...or we can't.

It's one thing to say "It's great to have a person of Gender A, Orientation B, Race C, Culture D, and Religion E because they have a personal point of view different from most other people on the team."

It's another to say "We need and only want a person of Gender A, Orientation B, Race C, Culture D, and Religion E." because that implies exclusivity of human thought based on personal experience, again, completely denying imagination and empathy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956668Heh, countdown to white guys Whitesplaining racism to the Japanese guy.

Oh I'm waiting for that one... heh.

Quote from: Trond;956671If women were as interested in RPGs as men (or more interested, say), then they would have taken over the hobby long ago. That's what happened to fiction literature in general (check recent authors on the book shelves; more women than men). If women are underrepresented in a field or hobby, it is not necessarily due to sexism. It's not necessarily due to any "problem" at all.

This is a point I often raise when this stuff comes up. There are plenty of female-dominated hobbies, some of them I participate in. I've never seen any women wringing their hands over how to get more men involved. Sometimes I suspect that a portion of this energy is lonely maladroids looking for 'dates'.

Meanwhile, there have just about always been women in my RPG groups, both as GMs and Players. Generally a minority, sure, but a consistent presence. And I am aware of a number of women game designers, but for whatever reason the sorts of games they tend to write don't interest me all that much. I am a fan of Scrap Princess, and I did like Sarah Newton's 'Chronicles of Future Earth' - which I'd hoped would get it's proposed expansion for Mythras, but that's not happening... and Ms. Newton seems otherwise engaged with projects that don't float my boat.

I'm going to blow the lid off this topic with a news flash...women are not (as whole) as interested in rolling initiative on a group of glaive wielding orcs as men are.

I know that is a shocker to some of the folks falling all over themselves to be "more inclusive" but the only way you are going to get more chicks into your game is to start DMing My Little Pony.

There is no more a barrier to women in this hobby than there is to women writing romance novels. But the proportion of men writing romance novels is about the same as women writing fantasy gaming rules. (Don't blame the messenger!)  I'm sure if some woman wants to turn in rules on elves dry humping each other, Green Ronin will fall over itself to publish them to be inclusive.

In other words, sometimes the girls don't want to play with the boys. And that is ok! And sometimes you want to publish some SJW crap for a fake cause and I don't want to pay for it. And that is OK too!

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956687There is no more a barrier to women in this hobby than there is to women writing romance novels. But the proportion of men writing romance novels is about the same as women writing fantasy gaming rules.

There are more men writing romance novels than you think... but they pretty much have to do it under female psuedonym's.
I can't think of any games that were written by women posing as men so as to not scare away their audience... but perhaps they remain a secret. For all I know The Pundit may be a woman, over doing the whole machismo thing to the point of parody.

Quote from: trechriron;956675I also think the question by CJKrueger is a good one - does the author's gender, gender identity, sexuality, ethnicity, religion or other identifying characteristics affect the quality or even color the work produced by that creator?

I doubt it affects the quality per se, but I think it definitely makes a difference, albeit maybe not as much of one as the real diversity fanatics seem to think. It's not "we have all these White People books, we need more Black People books." It's more like, everyone's background and personal issues affect how they think and what sort of experiences they can draw on for their work.

The first example to come to mind is The Matrix, which has running themes of the identity you get assigned by the world versus the identity you make for yourself. We didn't find out until much later, but it was created by not one but two trans people. That doesn't make it "a Trans People movie," it just means that the creators had had cause to think a lot about certain things and put some of that in their work. Does it add a lot? Hard to say, but it certainly made a difference on some level.

So... does it make sense to specifically hire a woman for a particular project? I dunno, maybe? A little? It depends on just how deep this game plans to go into in-depth roleplaying and complex issues. A woman might indeed go at those slightly differently than a man would. On the other hand, if it's just another game of hitting ogres with a sword, well, I don't think that there are even the most subtle of different gendered approaches to that.

Quote from: cranebump;956679I think we just don't know, yet, the outcome of social advancement programs. For me, I'd rather help out as much as possible. I believe the average white person is completely in the dark concerning the experiences of minorities, even vicariously, through reading about such experiences, and, as such, cannot understand exactly the issues facing those unlike them. Further, I believe we too easily forgive the crimes of our ancestors because, "It wasn't me." I think we can admit grave injustice has been done, and still find a way to move forward. Like you, I am uncertain as to how to do that. I feel like a lot of this is part and parcel with income inequality and that, if we address that, we won't have to deal so much with giving a hand up or out, because poor people can break out of their cycle of poverty, which would be a boon for the historically disenfranchised, as well as the current.



I don't think anyone's advocating that. I know I certainly wouldn't.

I agree, believe it or not. We can't ignore the sins of our ancestors . Any of them. We need to go back to where it all started.

Africa.

I want reparations from Ethiopians for driving my people out of paradise and turning us into albino mutants. Every time a non african person gets skin cancer, an african person should pay for it.

Then we have to calculate what society would be like if no one left Ethiopia. And then take steps to create that society.

For starters, I think everyone on the planet should move back. Back to Ethiopia. All of us. Let's try this history thing again and get it right this time.

I haven't followed much about Green Ronin other than the announcement posted, but regarding the general legality and morality of looking for special attributes of a person:


There are a lot of jobs that call for certain attributes that are gender-specific or gender-biased. Acting and other appearance-related jobs are the most obvious, but there are many others - like security, massage therapists, counselors, and other jobs involving physical and/or personal contact. Even among non-physical jobs like writers, background can be important. Writers are often requested based on specific backgrounds for the perspective they bring - like "Seeking Polish immigrant authors to write stories of personal journeys."

This is particularly true of small employers, who may well have a specific focus - like an all-male dance troupe, say. They are hiring only men, but that doesn't necessarily spark protests. Likewise, I don't object to a family business who only hire family members, regardless of whether the family is predominantly white, black, or some other background. It is also important how the bias fits within the larger industry. I wouldn't have a problem if a one theater company, say, specialized in European historical dramas - but if all of the theater companies in a city are only casting white actors in white roles, then I'd have an issue with that.

Partly, specific jobs like this are not that big a deal to me because in practice, vastly more jobs can be effectively discriminatory without being up-front about it.

Quote from: tenbones;956645My take on this is - Cool for Green Ronin. If it's good, I'll buy it. If not, I won't.

Perfect!

Quote from: Simlasa;956690There are more men writing romance novels than you think... but they pretty much have to do it under female psuedonym's.
I can't think of any games that were written by women posing as men so as to not scare away their audience... but perhaps they remain a secret. For all I know The Pundit may be a woman, over doing the whole machismo thing to the point of parody.

I'm not conceding your point on all these men writing romance novels. I truly hope you are wrong. My grandmother had an entire wall with paper back romance novels she had bought at yard sales. I don't remember ever seeing one that said "written by a man" but who knows.

Regardless, if you are correct, you just prove my point that the barriers to men writing romance novels are more tangible than women writing gaming stuff. This is just not happening. There is no super secret publishing room full of geeky men saying "no. you can't come in" to any woman, let alone one with a half way decent idea. It just is not happening....

As for the Pundit, I must have missed the machismo too. He never struck my as anything more than an American ex-pat sitting on a beach in Latin America getting people to run his chat forum for him and occasionally turning out a gaming book to promote. Dude probably wears flip flops all day long for all I know.

Quote from: jhkim;956696I haven't followed much about Green Ronin other than the announcement posted, but regarding the general legality and morality of looking for special attributes of a person:


There are a lot of jobs that call for certain attributes that are gender-specific or gender-biased. Acting and other appearance-related jobs are the most obvious, but there are many others - like security, massage therapists, counselors, and other jobs involving physical and/or personal contact. Even among non-physical jobs like writers, background can be important. Writers are often requested based on specific backgrounds for the perspective they bring - like "Seeking Polish immigrant authors to write stories of personal journeys."

This is particularly true of small employers, who may well have a specific focus - like an all-male dance troupe, say. They are hiring only men, but that doesn't necessarily spark protests. Likewise, I don't object to a family business who only hire family members, regardless of whether the family is predominantly white, black, or some other background. It is also important how the bias fits within the larger industry. I wouldn't have a problem if a one theater company, say, specialized in European historical dramas - but if all of the theater companies in a city are only casting white actors in white roles, then I'd have an issue with that.

Partly, specific jobs like this are not that big a deal to me because in practice, vastly more jobs can be effectively discriminatory without being up-front about it.

But they're only asking for women and "non-binary" gendered people. Is this sufficient for the criteria that you're citing to make that difference? I personally can't name any game I've ever purchased based on the gender of the author of that game. I, personally, own quite a bit of stuff from Nicole Lindroos herself - I didn't buy it because she wrote from a specifically female perspective. I bought it because it was good for what I was running.

Seems like a pretty broad brush they're painting these assumptions with.  I think it in some ways it's saying something else other than what they intend. Because the outcomes are ultimately not going to be decided by the plumbing of the person doing the writing - it's going to be the quality of the work. Now, it *could* well be that the conceits of this game do require a certain perspective - I'm open to that. I can't imagine what that is that would from a business perspective have the author's gender be the difference in terms of whether it would attract my wallet.

And it's Green Ronin to make the call and succeed/fail on it. The promotion of it seems counter-intuitive to being an optimal business decision. But hey - it's their call to make. /shrug. I just want good games.