Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Jaqcuaying history.

It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

Quote from: trechriron;957148It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

Agreed with one caveat.

I don't think there is a moral duty to ensure that there are more RPG players or RPG authors who are women. It's not like there's real-world status that women are denied by their not being into RPGs. On a personal level I like playing in groups that include women, and I like seeing more female RPG authors - but if someone doesn't care, I don't fault them.

I agree that Green Ronin's call isn't a revolution or oppression of male authors. If they are interested in a French perspective and recruit for a French person to help develop one of their games, that should be fine and isn't oppression of non-French authors.

Quote from: tenbones;957137... because everyone that enjoys a thing, they should go out and subsequently make  that thing? Where is this normally true?

Since I was replying to a statement about playing roleplaying games, I'm not really sure what relevancy you think this has.

Quote from: Ashakyre;957146Jaqcuaying history.

It's the inability to spell properly that really seals the deal on this non sequitur.

Quote from: Ulairi;957139What are their associated hobbies?

Board gaming and SF/fantasy fandom in general would be two big examples. Fan-fiction writers are also a big clue that there's something wrong with the tenet that women aren't interested in being creative in these demesnes.

Quote from: trechriron;957148It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

But here's the problem, what if women don't want to?

And that's the thing people are finding out: Women don't want to.  It's nice to put in these measures, but how do you do it without forcing people into or out of jobs they want to do?

This ad is worse than just potentially criminal, it's POINTLESS.  Outside of virtue signaling and other social justice whining crap, it doesn't benefit anything.

Opening doors to women who don't want, simply means more empty doors.

Also, what's wrong with letting the merits of your WORK speak for you?  What ever happened to that?



Someone asked why I care?  Because I like the stuff they put out.  Most of the political crap they shove into some of their books I can easily ignore, but on the whole, they've put out decent to good stuff.  And if this sort of advertisement gets them in legal trouble, that might mean they'd have to stop working on stuff I like.  So there's nothing wrong in pointing out the issues, and hope they correct them, so they won't run the risk of trouble.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;957044I'm not certain about that, what I do know from my time working in the publishing industry is that 80% of book purchases are by women, and that the romance genre sales dwarf any other genre by a huge margin.

True.  I believe that Romance/Women's Fiction is about 40-50% of the total adult fiction market (in # of books sold - less in $), followed by mystery/thriller, followed by Fantasy/SF.  But romance dominating fiction and women buying the VAST majority of them has little to do with F&SF authors.  I doubt that women purchase 80% of F&SF, I think it's just them buying well over 90% of the romance/women's fiction which skews them to buy 80% of book purchases

I actually couldn't find that as a solid stat - though I found a few vague references to 70-80% #s.  Though even that seems like it would be skewed up somewhat because I'd think that women are still more likely to buy books for their kids etc. as even those #s were based upon purchases and not actual reading.  Though I did read an interesting theory that it's because when learning to read as a kid - most boys don't have the attention span for reading and therefore never got into it for pleasure.

Quote from: Trond;956671If women were as interested in RPGs as men (or more interested, say), then they would have taken over the hobby long ago. That's what happened to fiction literature in general (check recent authors on the book shelves; more women than men). If women are underrepresented in a field or hobby, it is not necessarily due to sexism. It's not necessarily due to any "problem" at all. Sure I would have liked more women in the hobby, but liking an idea does not make it realistic (and seriously, A LOT of people can't tell the difference).

This has been my question about all these dust ups. Why is there moral urgency that rpg hobby be "gender equal"? If women aren't being deliberately excluded then if more want to join the fun, they'll join. Or they may be more interested in other things. I'd love to see more women in the hobby personally but I think that's best served by asking more women if they'd like to give it a shot.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957156Since I was replying to a statement about playing

It's the inability to spell properly that really seals the deal on this non sequitur.

Pedantic.

Quote from: trechriron;957148It's not complicated. We want more woman creators so let's acknowledge them, let's encourage more female participation. It's NOT excluding male creators. One project out of the hundreds of potential projects both announced and just cooking up in the minds of people does not constitute some illegal conspiracy to replace men with women. If you didn't have the hutzpah to be making games before this announcement, and are now discouraged from making games BECAUSE of the announcement, you were never going to be making games in the first place. Stop fucking lying to yourself.

Its the publicity stunt angle that irks some of us. And this whole series of "inclusivist" flag waving has turned the various groups, of which I am in one, into just a damn status trophy. And very often only when it suits them to boost sales or bragging rights that they scored one on the checklist.

And on a personal level these sorts of gags encourage hiring someone not based on their skills. But because of their gender, skin colour, completeness if body, whatever.

Quote from: Nexus;957165This has been my question about all these dust ups. Why is there moral urgency that rpg hobby be "gender equal"? If women aren't being deliberately excluded then if more want to join the fun, they'll join. Or they may be more interested in other things. I'd love to see more women in the hobby personally but I think that's best served by asking more women if they'd like to give it a shot.

Unfortunately, its now common wisdom that women are unable to enjoy any media created by men or starring men, so they are forced to sit on the sidelines until a few men make a big effort to recruit some women to write in the industry and create FAIRNESS and EQUALITY.

Quote from: Ulairi;957099Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

Based on what I've seen at game cons and comic cons, women outnumber men in cosplay and equal the men in LARPS.

There is definitely a female audience for playing pretend elf. Just maybe not with dice.

I belong to a couple boardgame meetups and they're 25% to 40% women, depending on the event. I have noticed women are less interested in the combat games, and more interested in the party games and non-combat oriented strategy games.

Quote from: Ulairi;957101It's a private company doing what it wants and publishing products is a free market. Good on them.

Private companies and the mythical "free market" are not exempt from hiring laws.

Why are these laws inviolate if protecting women from discrimination, but meaningless otherwise?

Shouldn't black men or gay men receive the same protection?

Quote from: Ulairi;957101If a goal to get more women into the hobby is actually serious then there should be a "Take your GF/Wife/Daughter to your game" day.

You posted the absolutely smartest thing in this thread.

THAT is a truly great idea.

Quote from: tenbones;957137You just compared women in the gaming industry today to Jews in 1930's Germany. Are you kidding me?

I can't see the difference, and if you see any difference, you're Hitler!!

Really tenbones, how dare you!!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;957158This ad is worse than just potentially criminal, it's POINTLESS.  Outside of virtue signaling and other social justice whining crap, it doesn't benefit anything.

As Lynn mentioned a while ago, this is an advertising and marketing stunt.

And it worked!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;957158Also, what's wrong with letting the merits of your WORK speak for you?  What ever happened to that?

Sounds like you and tenbones are both Hitler.

Quote from: Nexus;957165Why is there moral urgency that rpg hobby be "gender equal"?

Sex.

Hot sweaty chunky monkey geek on geek sex.

Green Ronin shall lead all the lonely masturbators into a glorious future filled with D&D and Chill.

Hopefully, all the hot sex will result in some much needed weight loss among our fellow hobbyists!

I am coming to believe my contribution of Erasure's song, "It Doesn't Have to Be," might be the best thing about this thread. So far, I am reserving my half onion contribution until things improve.

Current Topic State: Not Worth Half an Onion. :mad:

Quote from: Ashakyre;957166Pedantic.

You have, at least, managed to spell this non sequitur correctly. So that's improvement. Good work!

Quote from: Opaopajr;957180I am coming to believe my contribution of Erasure's song, "It Doesn't Have to Be," might be the best thing about this thread. So far, I am reserving my half onion contribution until things improve.

Current Topic State: Not Worth Half an Onion. :mad:

Was it part of the joke that the song was missing on Youtube or was that just my phone fucking up?

Quote from: Voros;957202Was it part of the joke that the song was missing on Youtube or was that just my phone fucking up?

Well, it does work on my phone... But I am going to go with it being part of the joke -- and a means to oppress you in response to my being offended (or something ).