Quote from: Spinachcat;957051Tell that to all the men who missed their kids' childhood while working. Or the soldiers who didn't even see their kids for many months at a time. Stay home moms trade career years for child rearing years. The men who stay in their career make more cash, but lose out on raising their kids. It's absolutely a trade. People just have to decide which is more important to them, or just half ass both which is what I mostly see these days.

Since this was addressed at me, and I may have been unclear: the equivalency I was referring to was the fact that men cannot physically bear children, and so do not have to consider losing time at work (along with chances at advancement) because of, you know, passing a bowling ball through a keyhole.

P.S. I served 8 years in the Army, about half of that away from home. I am familiar with the above scenario.

Quote from: Simlasa;956710Maybe not, but maybe there's something... I don't know what specifically... that might make a woman feel less than fully welcome. Nothing consciously poised against her... just an odor in the room might be enough. So what harm in hanging out a welcome sign and a few formal invites to join?

But then I also agree with the big green guy that some of this stuff is self-congratulatory and suspect in its motives.

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

I'm fine with the project. I don't think it's actually going to do anything to move the player demographics any but it's fine to try to reach out to different folks. It's a private company doing what it wants and publishing products is a free market. Good on them.

If a goal to get more women into the hobby is actually serious then there should be a "Take your GF/Wife/Daughter to your game" day. Because the easiest way to get more women into the hobby is to have men involve the women in their lives.

I just think it's a losing battle because I don't think we will ever see parity at the table because I think, by and large, women are just not that interested in pretend elf games.

Quote from: Voros;957028Didn't he post to studies on this? You glide right over them like they weren't there.  Yet again proving why arguing politics, particularly on the net, is largely pointless.

The existence of a study doesn't guarantee that it is relevant. For example:

'The study, "The Science of Justice: Race, Arrests, and Police Use of Force," did not seek to determine whether the employment of force in any particular instance was justified, but the center's researchers found that the disparity in which African-Americans were subjected to police force remained consistent across what law enforcement officers call the use-of-force continuum — from relatively mild physical force, through baton strikes, canine bites, pepper spray, Tasers and gunshots.'

The disproportion is constant in instances of use-of-force. Got it. If use-of-force occurs, the proportion of it being used against Black people is much higher than similar encounters with White people. Or is it simply by population in the sampled area?

Wouldn't it be more relevant to note if the use-of-force was justified or not?

What counts as 'justified' use of force? Does it mean the alleged criminal gave you a funny look, or did they do something else?

You stop at a very shallow level of understanding and you end up with people using it towards whatever ends they have, because hey, there was a study!

Quote from: cranebump;957095Here's the article, in case you're interested.

Thanks, that was a well written piece. It would be useful I think to know if his resemblance to the person who generated the original complaint was something more than just being Black. If I were the officer in charge of that young cop, Id also be wondering how this young guy has the time to go out of his jurisdiction, and how it was authorized.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;957044I'm not certain about that, what I do know from my time working in the publishing industry is that 80% of book purchases are by women, and that the romance genre sales dwarf any other genre by a huge margin.

It was from a study I'd read about from Strange Horizons a few years ago. Mind you - it's Science Fiction *AND* Fantasy combined. They said it's about half of the books published. When you start drilling down into sub-genres you'll see a marked differences in distribution. Women tend to only be about 25% of the Sci-fi books for instance, but they crank out a ton of fantasy.

And of course in Romance books they're a significant majority.

I find the attribution writ-large that sexism is some kind of institution in publishing - and even gaming, absurd. These are simple market forces. I recall that same study also pointed out that men submit a lot more fiction than women do as well - like 75% more. Where these things crop up is the reviews. Men get reviewed more than women do. Dunno why. But that's not really the fault of the publishers, especially when anyone with a blog can do a review.

The issue here, as it is with Identity Politics that seek to assign some kind of "blame" to distinctions where no blame necessarily is required - is one of tastes and perception. The assumption being made is that because someone doesn't believe that 51% of all things aren't female in representation it implicitly must be some kind of male-conspiracy. It doesn't account for motivation, trends in tastes, and interests. If you want to see a great example of this at work right now - look at Marvel Comics right now.

TL/DR - I like good things. Make good things. Take my money.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;956687I'm going to blow the lid off this topic with a news flash...women are not (as whole) as interested in rolling initiative on a group of glaive wielding orcs as men are.

True-ish, but lots of women do seem to like the idea of "D&D fantasy" and RPGs (my Thursday group has 4 female players & 1 male). I get the general impression GMing (& message board posting!) skews male more than playing RPGs does, though again 2 of the 4 female players in my Thursday group also GM pretty regularly, one I'd say probably GMs more than plays. I saw recent estimate D&D players were 30% female, up from I think 18% in 2000, and that fits my experience.

So who wants to take a friendly 5$ wager for how many pages it'll take before this thread goes to Pungency, in spirit and place?

Quote from: Lynn;957110Thanks, that was a well written piece. It would be useful I think to know if his resemblance to the person who generated the original complaint was something more than just being Black. If I were the officer in charge of that young cop, Id also be wondering how this young guy has the time to go out of his jurisdiction, and how it was authorized.

Hard to say. The concern for me would be about the person calling in, ostensibly, one of the neighbors, and what their assumptions were (as well as why they didn't go outside to find out who was there and why). What hits home for me is Glanville's feeling that he has to teach his children the proper amount of fear to exercise, which I find incredibly heartbreaking.

Quote from: S'mon;957114True-ish, but lots of women do seem to like the idea of "D&D fantasy" and RPGs (my Thursday group has 4 female players & 1 male). I get the general impression GMing (& message board posting!) skews male more than playing RPGs does, though again 2 of the 4 female players in my Thursday group also GM pretty regularly, one I'd say probably GMs more than plays. I saw recent estimate D&D players were 30% female, up from I think 18% in 2000, and that fits my experience.

do you remember the survey? I know that I've seen surveys that show a lot more women that play board and card games right now with the boom happening. I haven't seen anything specifically about RPGs.

Quote from: trechriron;956550Third, With the lowest possible barrier to self-publishing that has ever existed in the history of the industry (hobby), why does it fucking matter? Did you believe you're so awesome that GR was going to just hire you - penis unseen - for a quickie freelancer contract on a project because #meritocracy? I'm astonished. Seriously. Kevin Crawford has posted How To Publish Shit Yourselves You Fucking Whiny Near-Do-Wells on so many forums so many times how in the FUCK SAUCE did you miss it? Just search the GOOGLES. Dudes. Seriously. It's been 7 fucking days! You could have had your first book on OBS by now!

Ladies. Seriously. It's been 7 fucking days! You could have had your first book on OBS by now! Why do you need a company to hire you and pay you as a freelancer?

Wake me up when OBS is filled with self published RPG products by women authors unjustly cast out of the freelance industry with no other recourse but to do it all themselves from home! This is SJW marketing. If you want a female writer you hire one, plain and simple. You don't go around promoting a "women only talent search."

Women don't need this. They can kick all the ass they want in writing, illustration, design and layout. And I bet they'd rather have their games bought and played for being good, and not because they were made by a woman.


"I don't want to be the Black Spider-Man. I just want to be Spider-man."

-- Miles Morales

Quote from: shuddemell;956905I have trouble believing that if women are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they must have a leg up to compete. Seems a strange point of view to me.

"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Do you really find it that hard to believe?

Quote from: Ulairi;957099Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

Possible? Sure. Likely? Given their high participation rates in associated hobbies and interests, not very.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Do you really find it that hard to believe?

You just compared women in the gaming industry today to Jews in 1930's Germany. Are you kidding me?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135Possible? Sure. Likely? Given their high participation rates in associated hobbies and interests, not very.

... because everyone that enjoys a thing, they should go out and subsequently make  that thing? Where is this normally true?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957135"I have trouble believing that if Jews are the strong, capable individuals I know them to be, that it is not a bit insulting to continually insist that they face systemic prejudice that makes career advancement difficult in 1930's Germany."

Do you really find it that hard to believe?



Possible? Sure. Likely? Given their high participation rates in associated hobbies and interests, not very.

What are their associated hobbies?

Quote from: Ulairi;957099Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out there, that maybe women aren't as interested in playing pretend and rolling dice? Is that a possibility?

Maybe... it might also be something about the kinds of pretend RPG are often associated with, regardless of whether those associations are accurate... it might be something about how long RPG sessions are... it might be something about the sorts of guys who play RPGs... way too many variables.
But the assumption seems to be that there ARE some women who would like to engage with the hobby more, but for whatever reason do not feel as welcome as they'd like.
Is that a bad assumption? Do those supposed women exist? And if they do, are they wrong for imagining they're not welcome?
What more can I do on my end than to police my own behavior, and try to be open and welcoming?

I'd still like to see some listing of what notable female RPG talents are out there... making games, writing blogs.