Just a topic I thought might be fun. Partially suggested by some comments in the thread about non-D&D based fantasy games.

There's possibly no game published in recent years that appeals to me more mechanically than Shadow of the Demon Lord. At the same time, there might be no setting I have ever bounced off of harder than the default SOTDL one.

Conversely, Black Void is a game with a very intriguing setting, but mechanically it's pretty underwhelming.

So what else fits into this dichotomy? I've heard a few people say that despite 4th Edition's flaws, they really Love the Nentir Vale. I know Runequest has its dissidents, both on the setting and mechanical side. Are there Dark Sun fans that hate AD&D2e? Golarian fans that hate Pathfinder? Cypher System fans that hate Numenera?

For me, every instance of using a setting with a different system is an example of a great setting with an unsatisfactory system. Such examples include:

- Using Savage Worlds for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
- Using any D&D setting with another system (such as Savage Worlds, Mutants & Masterminds, or Quick & Dirty RPG System)
- Using Monte Cooke's World of Darkness with Mutants & Masterminds
- I would probably use DtwenD with Numenera, as I find the abilities provided by the roles and foci to be ultimately unsatisfying (huge cafeteria with no access to the kitchen, so to speak).

Other than that, I rarely use settings that stem primarily from TTRPGs. I'm much more likely to use settings from other media (largely from video games).

I wanted to like MERP/ICE for the Middle Earth modules, but I'd prefer a different system.
I wanted to like FFG's Rogue Trader, for the setting, but I'm not happy with the system either.
I like Fading Suns but not the system.
How could I forget Cyberpunk? I love the genre, not a fan of the system.

Off the top of my head, I love the G.I. Joe and Transformers G1 settings, but the recent RPG games based on them are an abomination.

Star Wars. I do not think d20, Saga, novelty dice rulesets ever got the feel right, not sure about d6.

Okay, that's a messy thought about preferences.

I personally think Mutant Chronicles 2d20 fits the bill for great game with crap setting.

I've got very mixed feelings about licensed rpgs but I honestly think Alien, Blade Runner, and Terminator are too thin to make a good rpg.  TSR's Bughunters is how it should be done.  PC replicants verses Aliens, Predators, Terminators and every other alien monster Hollywood ever came up with.

I think MERP is a bit of a mess.  Middle Earth can work for roleplaying but MERP oversimplifies things and the charts get dull fast.  You need full on Rolemaster.  Alternately, there's ICE's Lord of the Rings Adventure game which has a great, tight, little system but falls down hard on presentation.  MERP's just too middle of the road.  Decipher's Lord of the Rings game just proves that D&D on 2d6 is a bad idea long before Mongoose Traveller cemented it as the crappiest idea in the history of game design for all eternity.  Not that I have any strong opinions on things.

Quote from: Wisithir on April 13, 2023, 11:04:58 PM
Star Wars. I do not think d20, Saga, novelty dice rulesets ever got the feel right, not sure about d6.

My most successful Star Wars game was run with the BRP big gold book and a lot of on the fly rulings.  Make of that what you will.

Even so, I've never liked dicepools and d6 Star Wars was my first encounter.  I'd never run it with a d20 game, 3.x can't even do D&D well, why would I want to hammer Star Wars into it.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 10:46:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I love the G.I. Joe and Transformers G1 settings, but the recent RPG games based on them are an abomination.

Yup. I'd reccomend Mechamorphosis or a heavily modded Mekton over the "Official" Transformers RPG.

Great setting, crap game, time to mention Rifts. The setting is a strange amalgamation of comic book juvenile silliness, dark subject matter, and over the top cosmic epicness. And yet it's a blast to read and play in.
The system has been dissected to death. Even it's proponents usually have to house rule the damn thing to get it to work, and even then it's still a clunky jalopy of a system.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 14, 2023, 12:41:39 AM
I personally think Mutant Chronicles 2d20 fits the bill for great game with crap setting.

We're gonna have to step outside.

QuoteI've got very mixed feelings about licensed rpgs but I honestly think Alien, Blade Runner, and Terminator are too thin to make a good rpg.

Strongly agree. I had a funny image of an RPG session of Blade Runner being the players analyzing photographs for 2 hours.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 14, 2023, 12:41:39 AMI've got very mixed feelings about licensed rpgs but I honestly think Alien, Blade Runner, and Terminator are too thin to make a good rpg.

Turn Alien in to Aliens. The excellent Aliens novels and comics from the 80's and 90's show the setting has legs.

Terminator has moderate legs I'd say, depending on setting choice, and 'Terminator of the week' to keep it fresh. Not a game you'd still be playing after years though.

Blade Runner I completely agree. Love the movie, but it's not fertile ground for an RPG.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2023, 01:21:36 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 10:46:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I love the G.I. Joe and Transformers G1 settings, but the recent RPG games based on them are an abomination.

Yup. I'd reccomend Mechamorphosis or a heavily modded Mekton over the "Official" Transformers RPG.

My plan has always been to run G.I. Joe and Transformers using Cartoon Action Hour, as I already emulate several other similar cartoons with it. I always appreciate system suggestions though.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2023, 01:21:36 AMGreat setting, crap game, time to mention Rifts. The setting is a strange amalgamation of comic book juvenile silliness, dark subject matter, and over the top cosmic epicness. And yet it's a blast to read and play in.
The system has been dissected to death. Even it's proponents usually have to house rule the damn thing to get it to work, and even then it's still a clunky jalopy of a system.

That reminds me of another one: TMNT And Other Strangeness. Great setting, RIFT's mechanics.   

Blood of Heroes easily ranks as my #1 for best system with worst possible setting. I understand why it exists in the way that it does, but there's no excuse for being THAT bad. I actually had to get rid of the books and locate a copy of DC Heroes 3rd because it annoyed me so much.

Best setting with bad system...does anyone actually know how to play Shadowrun 1st/2nd? I've had the books for 30+ years and played in several campaigns but still have no idea how it is actually supposed to work.

Somewhere in the middle is Dangerous Journeys. It's an almost great setting with some major flaws coupled with a really cool system with major flaws. I want to like this game so much but it fails me every time I get it out to play.

I'll also throw out Chivalry and Sorcery as my last example. Simultaneously the best roleplaying game ever made and the absolute worst. Incomprehensible in a lot of areas, but only some of the time. Like I can read the magic rules and understand them fairly well and think, wow, this is so evocative and cool. But then I try to figure out the combat rules and have to forget how magic works to do that so I can run a joust and there goes half the rules out of my brain. I did run a campaign not that long ago using everything and we ended up quitting to play something else because the enormity of the rules was so out of hand 90% of the time was spent "off screen". But I suppose that's the actual point of the game, honestly. It's the best domain game ever written, but as a face-to-face RPG it's the equivalent of eating the most elaborate meal ever devised by the world's most famous chef, having it taste like dog shit, but telling everyone who asks that it's an "acquired taste".

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 14, 2023, 01:39:33 AM
My plan has always been to run G.I. Joe and Transformers using Cartoon Action Hour, as I already emulate several other similar cartoons with it. I always appreciate system suggestions though.

Is that Transformers and G.I. Joe in the same game or two separate game? I have been looking for system that could handle both for miniature wargame IP that blended multiple 80's cartoon inspirations into one new setting. I think Savage Worlds Robotech might be a good choice based on the system's flexibility, snappy combats, and bennies to emulate unlikely cartoon plot contrivances.

I think Shadowrun in total got progressively worse. Catalyst was seemingly actively hostile to the concept of editing in its 5e, Anarchy, and 6e versions. 

Anything RPG by FFG or 2d20 Modiphius. From proprietary dice with multi-axes of whiz-bang successes to boon counters economy...  No. Just, no. It is my badwrongfun and forbidden from further disturbing my peace in life.

Any of those "Fight the Power!" charity bundles where you get over 500 games for $5. Its vast majority is hackneyed, unplaytested shlock and you know it. I was wrangled into a handful of amusing (bemusing) game pitches and once I saw the short DIY pdfs and sharing the speaking stick safety rules, I knew we lost several hours of our lives. When your game for tonight is bundled in a file of hundreds, and slathered in virtue charity because it ain't worth even that red cent, you know your evening is a write-off. I've had more fun dropping that fiver with the homeless themselves direct on a beer crawl night -- and it probably did more good, too.

Quote from: Brad on April 14, 2023, 04:00:09 AM
Blood of Heroes easily ranks as my #1 for best system with worst possible setting. I understand why it exists in the way that it does, but there's no excuse for being THAT bad. I actually had to get rid of the books and locate a copy of DC Heroes 3rd because it annoyed me so much.

Best setting with bad system...does anyone actually know how to play Shadowrun 1st/2nd? I've had the books for 30+ years and played in several campaigns but still have no idea how it is actually supposed to work.

Somewhere in the middle is Dangerous Journeys. It's an almost great setting with some major flaws coupled with a really cool system with major flaws. I want to like this game so much but it fails me every time I get it out to play.

I'll also throw out Chivalry and Sorcery as my last example. Simultaneously the best roleplaying game ever made and the absolute worst. Incomprehensible in a lot of areas, but only some of the time. Like I can read the magic rules and understand them fairly well and think, wow, this is so evocative and cool. But then I try to figure out the combat rules and have to forget how magic works to do that so I can run a joust and there goes half the rules out of my brain. I did run a campaign not that long ago using everything and we ended up quitting to play something else because the enormity of the rules was so out of hand 90% of the time was spent "off screen". But I suppose that's the actual point of the game, honestly. It's the best domain game ever written, but as a face-to-face RPG it's the equivalent of eating the most elaborate meal ever devised by the world's most famous chef, having it taste like dog shit, but telling everyone who asks that it's an "acquired taste".

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, Brad! That reminds me--way back, I bought the rulebook for Chivalry & Sorcery, and I think your assessment is spot on. It's like, there's definitely some very cool elements in the game, some even brilliant. Rich historical writing, keen striving for detail and realism, and more--you can sense, somehow, there's truly some goodness there.

But then, as you read deeper, and start to grapple with the mechanics--the downside hits you, that some of the mechanical stuff just is an epic mess.

A tragic fate for a game that yearned to be like what's-his-name that wanted to fly to the sun? Trying desperately to reach greatness...but in the end, being burned to ashes. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The Nentir Vale; it's almost as if it was custom-made for B/X and BECMI games.

You have a region that was part of a well-run empire, but said empire was destroyed by monsters, and the Vale was itself overrun by armies of orcs, about a century prior.

The dangers have somewhat receded, but now you have a countryside filled with monsters and other hazards, but also the abandoned castles and manor houses filled with the treasures from when times were good. The geography includes mountains, river lands, lakes, wide forests, and a huge swamp. There is at least one organized bandit company, and ancient horrors are pressing at the boundaries between the world and the realms of evil.

Some evocative place-names, like "The Dawnforge Mountains", "The Witchlight Fens", "The Stonemarch", "Winterbole Forest", and "Thunderspire".

The main town of Fallcrest is very much "The Keep on the Borderlands", except in this case it's smack in the middle of monster nation, instead of a couple of hour's walk from monster camp.

The PCs begin as explorers and plunderers (Basic and Expert), but as they accumulate wealth, they realize that the relatively meager defenses of Fallcrest won't help if the orc army decides to overrun the vale again, so they build their own fortresses (Expert and Companion). As they carve out little kingdoms, they begin to gain enough strength to challenge the monsters who destroyed the empire (Companion and Master).