Just a topic I thought might be fun. Partially suggested by some comments in the thread about non-D&D based fantasy games.
There's possibly no game published in recent years that appeals to me more mechanically than Shadow of the Demon Lord. At the same time, there might be no setting I have ever bounced off of harder than the default SOTDL one.
Conversely, Black Void is a game with a very intriguing setting, but mechanically it's pretty underwhelming.
So what else fits into this dichotomy? I've heard a few people say that despite 4th Edition's flaws, they really Love the Nentir Vale. I know Runequest has its dissidents, both on the setting and mechanical side. Are there Dark Sun fans that hate AD&D2e? Golarian fans that hate Pathfinder? Cypher System fans that hate Numenera?
For me, every instance of using a setting with a different system is an example of a great setting with an unsatisfactory system. Such examples include:
- Using Savage Worlds for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
- Using any D&D setting with another system (such as Savage Worlds, Mutants & Masterminds, or Quick & Dirty RPG System)
- Using Monte Cooke's World of Darkness with Mutants & Masterminds
- I would probably use DtwenD with Numenera, as I find the abilities provided by the roles and foci to be ultimately unsatisfying (huge cafeteria with no access to the kitchen, so to speak).
Other than that, I rarely use settings that stem primarily from TTRPGs. I'm much more likely to use settings from other media (largely from video games).
I wanted to like MERP/ICE for the Middle Earth modules, but I'd prefer a different system.
I wanted to like FFG's Rogue Trader, for the setting, but I'm not happy with the system either.
I like Fading Suns but not the system.
How could I forget Cyberpunk? I love the genre, not a fan of the system.
Off the top of my head, I love the G.I. Joe and Transformers G1 settings, but the recent RPG games based on them are an abomination.
Star Wars. I do not think d20, Saga, novelty dice rulesets ever got the feel right, not sure about d6.
Okay, that's a messy thought about preferences.
I personally think Mutant Chronicles 2d20 fits the bill for great game with crap setting.
I've got very mixed feelings about licensed rpgs but I honestly think Alien, Blade Runner, and Terminator are too thin to make a good rpg. TSR's Bughunters is how it should be done. PC replicants verses Aliens, Predators, Terminators and every other alien monster Hollywood ever came up with.
I think MERP is a bit of a mess. Middle Earth can work for roleplaying but MERP oversimplifies things and the charts get dull fast. You need full on Rolemaster. Alternately, there's ICE's Lord of the Rings Adventure game which has a great, tight, little system but falls down hard on presentation. MERP's just too middle of the road. Decipher's Lord of the Rings game just proves that D&D on 2d6 is a bad idea long before Mongoose Traveller cemented it as the crappiest idea in the history of game design for all eternity. Not that I have any strong opinions on things.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 13, 2023, 11:04:58 PM
Star Wars. I do not think d20, Saga, novelty dice rulesets ever got the feel right, not sure about d6.
My most successful Star Wars game was run with the BRP big gold book and a lot of on the fly rulings. Make of that what you will.
Even so, I've never liked dicepools and d6 Star Wars was my first encounter. I'd never run it with a d20 game, 3.x can't even do D&D well, why would I want to hammer Star Wars into it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 10:46:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I love the G.I. Joe and Transformers G1 settings, but the recent RPG games based on them are an abomination.
Yup. I'd reccomend Mechamorphosis or a heavily modded Mekton over the "Official" Transformers RPG.
Great setting, crap game, time to mention Rifts. The setting is a strange amalgamation of comic book juvenile silliness, dark subject matter, and over the top cosmic epicness. And yet it's a blast to read and play in.
The system has been dissected to death. Even it's proponents usually have to house rule the damn thing to get it to work, and even then it's still a clunky jalopy of a system.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 14, 2023, 12:41:39 AM
I personally think Mutant Chronicles 2d20 fits the bill for great game with crap setting.
We're gonna have to step outside. ;)
QuoteI've got very mixed feelings about licensed rpgs but I honestly think Alien, Blade Runner, and Terminator are too thin to make a good rpg.
Strongly agree. I had a funny image of an RPG session of Blade Runner being the players analyzing photographs for 2 hours.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 14, 2023, 12:41:39 AMI've got very mixed feelings about licensed rpgs but I honestly think Alien, Blade Runner, and Terminator are too thin to make a good rpg.
Turn Alien in to Aliens. The excellent Aliens novels and comics from the 80's and 90's show the setting has legs.
Terminator has moderate legs I'd say, depending on setting choice, and 'Terminator of the week' to keep it fresh. Not a game you'd still be playing after years though.
Blade Runner I completely agree. Love the movie, but it's not fertile ground for an RPG.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2023, 01:21:36 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 10:46:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I love the G.I. Joe and Transformers G1 settings, but the recent RPG games based on them are an abomination.
Yup. I'd reccomend Mechamorphosis or a heavily modded Mekton over the "Official" Transformers RPG.
My plan has always been to run G.I. Joe and Transformers using Cartoon Action Hour, as I already emulate several other similar cartoons with it. I always appreciate system suggestions though.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2023, 01:21:36 AMGreat setting, crap game, time to mention Rifts. The setting is a strange amalgamation of comic book juvenile silliness, dark subject matter, and over the top cosmic epicness. And yet it's a blast to read and play in.
The system has been dissected to death. Even it's proponents usually have to house rule the damn thing to get it to work, and even then it's still a clunky jalopy of a system.
That reminds me of another one: TMNT And Other Strangeness. Great setting, RIFT's mechanics. :o
Blood of Heroes easily ranks as my #1 for best system with worst possible setting. I understand why it exists in the way that it does, but there's no excuse for being THAT bad. I actually had to get rid of the books and locate a copy of DC Heroes 3rd because it annoyed me so much.
Best setting with bad system...does anyone actually know how to play Shadowrun 1st/2nd? I've had the books for 30+ years and played in several campaigns but still have no idea how it is actually supposed to work.
Somewhere in the middle is Dangerous Journeys. It's an almost great setting with some major flaws coupled with a really cool system with major flaws. I want to like this game so much but it fails me every time I get it out to play.
I'll also throw out Chivalry and Sorcery as my last example. Simultaneously the best roleplaying game ever made and the absolute worst. Incomprehensible in a lot of areas, but only some of the time. Like I can read the magic rules and understand them fairly well and think, wow, this is so evocative and cool. But then I try to figure out the combat rules and have to forget how magic works to do that so I can run a joust and there goes half the rules out of my brain. I did run a campaign not that long ago using everything and we ended up quitting to play something else because the enormity of the rules was so out of hand 90% of the time was spent "off screen". But I suppose that's the actual point of the game, honestly. It's the best domain game ever written, but as a face-to-face RPG it's the equivalent of eating the most elaborate meal ever devised by the world's most famous chef, having it taste like dog shit, but telling everyone who asks that it's an "acquired taste".
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 14, 2023, 01:39:33 AM
My plan has always been to run G.I. Joe and Transformers using Cartoon Action Hour, as I already emulate several other similar cartoons with it. I always appreciate system suggestions though.
Is that Transformers and G.I. Joe in the same game or two separate game? I have been looking for system that could handle both for miniature wargame IP that blended multiple 80's cartoon inspirations into one new setting. I think Savage Worlds Robotech might be a good choice based on the system's flexibility, snappy combats, and bennies to emulate unlikely cartoon plot contrivances.
I think Shadowrun in total got progressively worse. Catalyst was seemingly actively hostile to the concept of editing in its 5e, Anarchy, and 6e versions. :o
Anything RPG by FFG or 2d20 Modiphius. From proprietary dice with multi-axes of whiz-bang successes to boon counters economy... >:( No. Just, no. It is my badwrongfun and forbidden from further disturbing my peace in life.
Any of those "Fight the Power!" charity bundles where you get over 500 games for $5. Its vast majority is hackneyed, unplaytested shlock and you know it. I was wrangled into a handful of amusing (bemusing) game pitches and once I saw the short DIY pdfs and sharing the speaking stick safety rules, I knew we lost several hours of our lives. When your game for tonight is bundled in a file of hundreds, and slathered in virtue charity because it ain't worth even that red cent, you know your evening is a write-off. I've had more fun dropping that fiver with the homeless themselves direct on a beer crawl night -- and it probably did more good, too.
Quote from: Brad on April 14, 2023, 04:00:09 AM
Blood of Heroes easily ranks as my #1 for best system with worst possible setting. I understand why it exists in the way that it does, but there's no excuse for being THAT bad. I actually had to get rid of the books and locate a copy of DC Heroes 3rd because it annoyed me so much.
Best setting with bad system...does anyone actually know how to play Shadowrun 1st/2nd? I've had the books for 30+ years and played in several campaigns but still have no idea how it is actually supposed to work.
Somewhere in the middle is Dangerous Journeys. It's an almost great setting with some major flaws coupled with a really cool system with major flaws. I want to like this game so much but it fails me every time I get it out to play.
I'll also throw out Chivalry and Sorcery as my last example. Simultaneously the best roleplaying game ever made and the absolute worst. Incomprehensible in a lot of areas, but only some of the time. Like I can read the magic rules and understand them fairly well and think, wow, this is so evocative and cool. But then I try to figure out the combat rules and have to forget how magic works to do that so I can run a joust and there goes half the rules out of my brain. I did run a campaign not that long ago using everything and we ended up quitting to play something else because the enormity of the rules was so out of hand 90% of the time was spent "off screen". But I suppose that's the actual point of the game, honestly. It's the best domain game ever written, but as a face-to-face RPG it's the equivalent of eating the most elaborate meal ever devised by the world's most famous chef, having it taste like dog shit, but telling everyone who asks that it's an "acquired taste".
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, Brad! That reminds me--way back, I bought the rulebook for Chivalry & Sorcery, and I think your assessment is spot on. It's like, there's definitely some very cool elements in the game, some even brilliant. Rich historical writing, keen striving for detail and realism, and more--you can sense, somehow, there's truly some goodness there.
But then, as you read deeper, and start to grapple with the mechanics--the downside hits you, that some of the mechanical stuff just is an epic mess.
A tragic fate for a game that yearned to be like what's-his-name that wanted to fly to the sun? Trying desperately to reach greatness...but in the end, being burned to ashes. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Nentir Vale; it's almost as if it was custom-made for B/X and BECMI games.
You have a region that was part of a well-run empire, but said empire was destroyed by monsters, and the Vale was itself overrun by armies of orcs, about a century prior.
The dangers have somewhat receded, but now you have a countryside filled with monsters and other hazards, but also the abandoned castles and manor houses filled with the treasures from when times were good. The geography includes mountains, river lands, lakes, wide forests, and a huge swamp. There is at least one organized bandit company, and ancient horrors are pressing at the boundaries between the world and the realms of evil.
Some evocative place-names, like "The Dawnforge Mountains", "The Witchlight Fens", "The Stonemarch", "Winterbole Forest", and "Thunderspire".
The main town of Fallcrest is very much "The Keep on the Borderlands", except in this case it's smack in the middle of monster nation, instead of a couple of hour's walk from monster camp.
The PCs begin as explorers and plunderers (Basic and Expert), but as they accumulate wealth, they realize that the relatively meager defenses of Fallcrest won't help if the orc army decides to overrun the vale again, so they build their own fortresses (Expert and Companion). As they carve out little kingdoms, they begin to gain enough strength to challenge the monsters who destroyed the empire (Companion and Master).
Shadow of the Demon Lord is an amazing game with an okay setting.
EDIT: I hadn't read the OP, sorry. :P
Let me try again: my favorite setting is Dark Sun but I'm not into AD&D, prefer B/X etc. Kult (2e) has a cool setting but the mechanics were so-so.
The current edition of Kult is a perfect case of vice versa (great setting with crap rules), but that's a given since it's PbtA (the by-the-book definition of "how to do games wrong").
Another example of great setting with meh rules was Underground from Mayfair Games: hilarious satirical near future setting coupled with a game system that was barely functional. The society parameters subsystem was nice, though.
Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 09:52:51 PM
How could I forget Cyberpunk? Not a fan of the system, but I love the genre.
I can't believe I didn't think of Cyberpunk! Yeah, it's a fun setting, but it's the biggest pain in the ass of any game I've ever GM'd.
Quote from: ronwisegamgee on April 13, 2023, 09:36:49 PM
- Using Savage Worlds for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Other than that, I rarely use settings that stem primarily from TTRPGs. I'm much more likely to use settings from other media (largely from video games).
SWADE for The Old World? That's interesting. Would never have occurred to me.
Out of curiosity, what video games? There's been a few games mentioned around the forum that I'd be curious what system people used to run them with.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 13, 2023, 11:04:58 PM
Star Wars. I do not think d20, Saga, novelty dice rulesets ever got the feel right, not sure about d6.
That's kind of how I feel about the Hyborian Age/Conan setting. Possibly the greatest adventuring setting ever created, but I don't think an official Conan RPG has yet done it justice.
Quote from: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 06:12:39 AM
But then, as you read deeper, and start to grapple with the mechanics--the downside hits you, that some of the mechanical stuff just is an epic mess.
Creating a magic-using character in 2nd edition might just be the absolute pinnacle of RPG character design. Too bad actually RUNNING said character properly is nigh impossible.
Quote from: Vestragor on April 14, 2023, 09:10:59 AM
The current edition of Kult is a perfect case of vice versa (great setting with crap rules), but that's a given since it's PbtA (the by-the-book definition of "how to do games wrong").
Another example of great setting with meh rules was Underground from Mayfair Games: hilarious satirical near future setting coupled with a game system that was barely functional. The society parameters subsystem was nice, though.
Powered by the Apocalypse? Lives up to its name...also didn't Underground use MEGS? That is easily the best superhero system ever devised, so I do not understand the knock here.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 14, 2023, 09:25:03 AM
That's kind of how I feel about the Hyborian Age/Conan setting. Possibly the greatest adventuring setting ever created, but I don't think an official Conan RPG has yet done it justice.
The d20 Atlantean edition is pretty decent; not great, but serviceable. I actually sought out a copy because the Modiphius version pissed me off THAT much. Hyperborea (Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea 3rd edition) is about the best game for Conan right now, probably. Through Sunken Lands is a close second.
Quote from: Brad on April 14, 2023, 09:49:24 AM
Powered by the Apocalypse? Lives up to its name...also didn't Underground use MEGS? That is easily the best superhero system ever devised, so I do not understand the knock here.
It's been nearly 30 years since I looked at it, but I remember that it used a logarithmic scale that was quite easy to break. Characters were either functional or badly overpowered to the point of absurdity without anything in between.
Quote from: Brad on April 14, 2023, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 14, 2023, 09:25:03 AM
That's kind of how I feel about the Hyborian Age/Conan setting. Possibly the greatest adventuring setting ever created, but I don't think an official Conan RPG has yet done it justice.
The d20 Atlantean edition is pretty decent; not great, but serviceable. I actually sought out a copy because the Modiphius version pissed me off THAT much. Hyperborea (Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea 3rd edition) is about the best game for Conan right now, probably. Through Sunken Lands is a close second.
I'm in a 2d20 Conan game at the moment. It is ...playable... once you get past the extremely steep learning curve. I don't think anyone at the table actually likes it, though. GM just wants to finish the adventure before we abandon it. We had one guy in the group who I think was a fan of the system, and he left. Didn't say why but I suspect it was because we were all "playing wrong".
D20 Conan looks like a pretty OK game, not a great one. Hyperborea is a fine game, but I'd never run the official Conan setting with it. To me, D&D magic and Conan simply cannot go together. If I wanted to run Howard's setting, I think I'd go with either By This Axe I Hack or maybe SWADE with either the Lankhmar or Beasts and Barbarians rules.
My first thought is Dragonlance 5th Age with the SAGA System. I love the system, but Dragonlance just isn't suited to adventures - at least as it existed when 5th Age was released and it was more a setting for Weis & Hickman's novels. It would be better run with Ravenloft, or even Star Wars.
Rifts is the other way around. I don't think anyone plays it for the Megaversal System, but the setting just oozes flavour and enthusiasm. Having it move to Savage Worlds was certainly an improvement, but I think it could be done with something even better. Dead Reign is another Palladium setting that's great, but just tied to an awful system.
Quote from: Vestragor on April 14, 2023, 10:02:49 AM
It's been nearly 30 years since I looked at it, but I remember that it used a logarithmic scale that was quite easy to break. Characters were either functional or badly overpowered to the point of absurdity without anything in between.
Yeah, that's MEGS. It is great for supers because you can have Superman and Jimmy Olsen going on adventures and both their STR scores can be represented by two digits. I imagine if you're running more human-oriented adventures without dudes like Batman it would mean A LOT of 2s, 3s, and 4s for attributes.
Quote from: migo on April 14, 2023, 10:18:45 AM
My first thought is Dragonlance 5th Age with the SAGA System. I love the system, but Dragonlance just isn't suited to adventures - at least as it existed when 5th Age was released and it was more a setting for Weis & Hickman's novels.
The setting as the Fifth Age team rebuilt it after
Dragons of Summer Flame was rich with adventure possibilities, but handicapped by the designers' excess ambition and tendencies towards metaplot, and then strangled in its cradle when WotC took over and offered Dragonlance back to Weis & Hickman on a silver platter (and even let them mess with Ravenloft a bit for a story that wound up changing directions and making those changes pretty much pointless) ...
Quote
It would be better run with Ravenloft, or even Star Wars.
Well, Tarokka decks are back in print, and work on adapting Ravenloft to SAGA was done back in the day. See DRAGON #240, 264, and the Kargatane
Book of Souls netbook if you're interested.
Nightspawn is a fantastic game setting, really original take on playing monstrous characters in a dark world without all the goth trappings of White Wolf. And unfortunately it's saddled with the Palladium system. Ever since Savage RIFTS I've been supremely tempted to homebrew a Savage Worlds adaptation for it; it would provide a whole new life for the setting.
I love almost everything about Runequest. Glorantha leaves me so cold that sometimes I get frost bite before I can close the book again. It's like hypothermia too, in that it sneaks up on you. I don't open Glorantha and always have an immediate freeze. Parts of it sparkle and look great in the sun. I then I realize, again, that the whole thing is built on fast and loose sophistry that falls apart as soon as you really think about it. I didn't like reading papers on myth by people that thought that way, and I still don't like it in games.
I always eventually get this image of a bunch of hippies on weed sitting around talking about how deep and profound something is--that's about as deep as your average mud puddle.
I'm probably gonna get slammed for that one. :D
Dragon Quest is the opposite. Great, thoughtful setting, oozing hidden depths, and even a few great ideas on expressing that in mechanics. But the mechanics as a whole are an unholy mess. It's as if the designers understood that Gygax was correct in that sometimes it's OK and even helpful to have different mechanics for different things. And they also were annoyed by it and decided to have a universal mechanic--in a heavily simulation type game. The upshot is that there is a universal mechanic with a zillion exceptions.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2023, 02:09:59 PM
I love almost everything about Runequest. Glorantha leaves me so cold that sometimes I get frost bite before I can close the book again.
I don't know which Glorantha you've been exposed to. I sneer at the behemoth it's become, but I'm a great fan of what we saw in the old 1e-2e days. There's a great PDF swimming around on the internet, a campaign log written by Jeff Okamoto detailing his five years playing in Sandy Petersen's RQ game. It's a blast, and (of course) very old school. The account can be quite inspirational. Anyway, I recommend giving it a look.
Already mentioned, but RIFTS is the old time posterchild for Great Settings with Crap Systems, also anything 2d20.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 14, 2023, 09:25:03 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 13, 2023, 09:52:51 PM
How could I forget Cyberpunk? Not a fan of the system, but I love the genre.
I can't believe I didn't think of Cyberpunk! Yeah, it's a fun setting, but it's the biggest pain in the ass of any game I've ever GM'd.
IDK, It's been YEARS since I played it, but I don't recall Cyberpunk's system being that bad. I did think that it had more attributes than it really need, and would probably have simplified them if it were up to me, but I always though that the core engine itself was fairly straightforward Roll 1d10+Mod vs TN.
Living Steel has an awesome system, at least when bolstered by two or three of the Phoenix Command books, but it works for everything except the Living Steel setting itself. The setting itself is badly broken by the sheer distances and technological breakdown involved, such that the postholocaust economy can't function because no one has the means to communicate and trade across continents. I wanted to like it, it seemed fertile ground for gaming ideas, but I couldn't make it work. The system on the other hand gave me endless hours of tinkering fun to perfect it, and supplied the framework for realistic combat results that other games just aggravatingly didn't.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 14, 2023, 05:35:28 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 14, 2023, 01:39:33 AM
My plan has always been to run G.I. Joe and Transformers using Cartoon Action Hour, as I already emulate several other similar cartoons with it. I always appreciate system suggestions though.
Is that Transformers and G.I. Joe in the same game or two separate game? I have been looking for system that could handle both for miniature wargame IP that blended multiple 80's cartoon inspirations into one new setting. I think Savage Worlds Robotech might be a good choice based on the system's flexibility, snappy combats, and bennies to emulate unlikely cartoon plot contrivances.
Bot War is a miniature wargame that's a shameless stew of Transformers, GI Joe, MASK, Dino Riders, etc, etc...
https://tradersgalaxy.com.au/product-category/bot-war/
(https://i0.wp.com/tradersgalaxy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/IMG_6262.jpg?fit=1020%2C765&ssl=1)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2023, 11:52:04 PM
Quote from: Wisithir on April 14, 2023, 05:35:28 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 14, 2023, 01:39:33 AM
My plan has always been to run G.I. Joe and Transformers using Cartoon Action Hour, as I already emulate several other similar cartoons with it. I always appreciate system suggestions though.
Is that Transformers and G.I. Joe in the same game or two separate game? I have been looking for system that could handle both for miniature wargame IP that blended multiple 80's cartoon inspirations into one new setting. I think Savage Worlds Robotech might be a good choice based on the system's flexibility, snappy combats, and bennies to emulate unlikely cartoon plot contrivances.
Bot War is a miniature wargame that's a shameless stew of Transformers, GI Joe, MASK, Dino Riders, etc, etc...
https://tradersgalaxy.com.au/product-category/bot-war/
It's a fun setting that has evolved past its inspirations. However, a wargame is not a good engine for a roleplaying campaign. WH40K miniatures game is not a substitute for Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy/Deathwatch/Only War.
What RPG system would be good for Bot War?
Quote from: Wisithir on April 15, 2023, 01:23:40 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2023, 11:52:04 PM
Quote from: Wisithir on April 14, 2023, 05:35:28 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 14, 2023, 01:39:33 AM
My plan has always been to run G.I. Joe and Transformers using Cartoon Action Hour, as I already emulate several other similar cartoons with it. I always appreciate system suggestions though.
Is that Transformers and G.I. Joe in the same game or two separate game? I have been looking for system that could handle both for miniature wargame IP that blended multiple 80's cartoon inspirations into one new setting. I think Savage Worlds Robotech might be a good choice based on the system's flexibility, snappy combats, and bennies to emulate unlikely cartoon plot contrivances.
Bot War is a miniature wargame that's a shameless stew of Transformers, GI Joe, MASK, Dino Riders, etc, etc...
https://tradersgalaxy.com.au/product-category/bot-war/
It's a fun setting that has evolved past its inspirations. However, a wargame is not a good engine for a roleplaying campaign. WH40K miniatures game is not a substitute for Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy/Deathwatch/Only War.
What RPG system would be good for Bot War?
You mentioned wargames, so I thought I'd bring it up. Heck, once upon a time I cobbled together an RPG for 40k Rogue Trader (the original) using Warhammer Fantasy as a template.
CAH would probably be the system. Transformers and GI Joe have scale and power issues, and the system would have to be flexible enough to include that. I've got Metal Wars for CAH, the Transformers knock off. I just am not interested in emulating cartoons with an RPG, so I haven't played it.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 15, 2023, 05:01:16 AM
CAH would probably be the system. Transformers and GI Joe have scale and power issues, and the system would have to be flexible enough to include that. I've got Metal Wars for CAH, the Transformers knock off. I just am not interested in emulating cartoons with an RPG, so I haven't played it.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will bring up CAH over in the Bot War group. Any suggestions for running a more "real robot" than "super robot" game in the setting? My thought was a human team working for one of the fratricidal robot tyrants to acquire piloted mech technology from his merman allies that would not work with humans directly. Take out his enemies while allowing him to fail through no fault on the human teams part all while trying to minimize collateral damage and casualties and acquire more tech. More Gundam than transformers, but not in space and much smaller mechs. Mekton seem too simulationist, thus not fast or flexible in non combat, while Mechamorphisis does not do non-bots well and has the d20 power curve whereas robot capability tends to be more stagnant save for a mid season upgrade.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 15, 2023, 05:36:57 AM
Mekton seem too simulationist, thus not fast or flexible in non combat
Friendly reminder that GNS is pure shit and using it as a frame of reference for evaluating games simply doesn't work.
Case in point: Mekton is an Interlock game, just like Cyberpunk 2020. Roll 1d10 + skill modifier vs difficulty is everything but slow, and skill based system like this are the definition of flexibility.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 15, 2023, 05:36:57 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 15, 2023, 05:01:16 AM
CAH would probably be the system. Transformers and GI Joe have scale and power issues, and the system would have to be flexible enough to include that. I've got Metal Wars for CAH, the Transformers knock off. I just am not interested in emulating cartoons with an RPG, so I haven't played it.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will bring up CAH over in the Bot War group. Any suggestions for running a more "real robot" than "super robot" game in the setting?
Yeah, Don't. CAH is not suited to "real robots". CAH is focused on emulating staturday morning cartoons over the specific settings in them. That's what makes it flexible enough to encompass all the disparate shows/settings, but that also means it's not good at representing any specific setting in detail.
Quote from: Vestragor on April 15, 2023, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: Wisithir on April 15, 2023, 05:36:57 AM
Mekton seem too simulationist, thus not fast or flexible in non combat
Friendly reminder that GNS is pure shit and using it as a frame of reference for evaluating games simply doesn't work.
Case in point: Mekton is an Interlock game, just like Cyberpunk 2020. Roll 1d10 + skill modifier vs difficulty is everything but slow, and skill based system like this are the definition of flexibility.
The Interlock part is good, resolving an attack from one mech to another is rather tedious with evasion, block/parry, armor penetration, armor degradation, then damage to and destruction of systems under the armor effecting the unit's performance. To me, the combat feels like simulating Dreadnought era naval combat. Not much human centric stuff to run a mixed environment with. I do evaluate whether a given game is better at the nitty gritty details of its subject matter, or emulating the genre or setting thereof, and simulation is a good word to describe the former. I did not realize that adding "-ist" to it made it a bad word.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 15, 2023, 06:42:56 AM
Quote from: Vestragor on April 15, 2023, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: Wisithir on April 15, 2023, 05:36:57 AM
Mekton seem too simulationist, thus not fast or flexible in non combat
Friendly reminder that GNS is pure shit and using it as a frame of reference for evaluating games simply doesn't work.
Case in point: Mekton is an Interlock game, just like Cyberpunk 2020. Roll 1d10 + skill modifier vs difficulty is everything but slow, and skill based system like this are the definition of flexibility.
The Interlock part is good, resolving an attack from one mech to another is rather tedious with evasion, block/parry, armor penetration, armor degradation, then damage to and destruction of systems under the armor effecting the unit's performance. To me, the combat feels like simulating Dreadnought era naval combat. Not much human centric stuff to run a mixed environment with. I do evaluate whether a given game is better at the nitty gritty details of its subject matter, or emulating the genre or setting thereof, and simulation is a good word to describe the former. I did not realize that adding "-ist" to it made it a bad word.
I recommend Jovian Chronicles/Heavy Gear for fast real robot style combat.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 15, 2023, 05:36:57 AMThank you for the suggestion, I will bring up CAH over in the Bot War group. Any suggestions for running a more "real robot" than "super robot" game in the setting?
Cartoon Action Hour's 3rd edition rulebook PDF is up on DriveThru for $15, and it regularly goes up on sale. In addition, DriveThru has an extended preview of the entire book, so you can actually read before you buy.
Pages 48-55 is the section of most interest to you, although of course a lot of it won't make sense without a grasp of the rules in general.
I've used CAH to run Masters Of The Universe, TMNT, and Visionaries games. No Transformers yet, but the mechanics are there. YMMV of course, as we all have our own expectations.
I'm pretty sure you already know my opinion on RuneQuest ;D
And I'll second you on Black Void; it's Bronze Age magical Star Gate, what's not to love? But yeah the system is so "meh" I immediately started thinking what system I could replace it with. Maybe one day I'll whip a one shot using Mini6 and Genre Divergent.
Quote from: Vestragor on April 14, 2023, 09:10:59 AM
The current edition of Kult is a perfect case of vice versa (great setting with crap rules), but that's a given since it's PbtA (the by-the-book definition of "how to do games wrong").
Another example of great setting with meh rules was Underground from Mayfair Games: hilarious satirical near future setting coupled with a game system that was barely functional. The society parameters subsystem was nice, though.
I'd put City of Mist next to Kult; a cool setting, but it's also using PBtA, which while I don't hate, it just feels a bit too loosey-goosey for my taste.
Also, is Underground the one about players running around a magical realm under NYC, and the main mechanic was coin flips (and was really just a set of thinly veiled LARP rules?)
Shadowrun - great setting, incoherent and disappointing system, never ever let a character play as a decker...
SW Deadlands - Has anyone ever tried to run a published adventure? Every opponent is rolling 1d12+2 against you for everything. The original Deadlands setting is about the absolute sweet spot for Wild West meets supernatural. But the mechanics... whew!
Beyond the Supernatural. I could tolerate the Palladium system for TMNT or Robotech. Not ideal, but serviceable. But for a horror game? Lemme see what I need to roll for in combat: ho, haha, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, ha, thrust...
Millennium's End: declare your aim point. Then put a literal circular template over an actual silhouette of a person and roll for where the bullet hits (or not). Interesting setting, but it takes "realism" just a bit too far...
Oh, and f*** Starfinder. In the excretory orifice. With a purple lightsaber. And a photon torpedo...
Rifts: Dislike the setting, like the mechanics.
Later versions of Shadowrun: Li9ke the setting and early mechanics. But past 3e the setting and mechanics start to go downhill nearly hand in hand.
Albedo Platimum: Great setting, slapdash cash-in of a system.
Other Suns: interesting setting. WTF system and a nasty designer on top of all that.
Universe: Complex yet surprisingly functional system. Barely any setting to it.
Mekton: Great system, not fond of the default setting.
d20m Gamma World(in name only) An interesting setting even if it has nothing to do with GW. But White Wolf, Baugh and Lizard couldnt write a coherent system to save their lives and didnt even bother because "oh the players will write that for us."
4e D&D Gamma World(in name only) 4e done as an actual RPG. But what a train wreck of a failure setting.
And more.
Quote from: Baron on April 14, 2023, 02:52:55 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2023, 02:09:59 PM
I love almost everything about Runequest. Glorantha leaves me so cold that sometimes I get frost bite before I can close the book again.
I don't know which Glorantha you've been exposed to. I sneer at the behemoth it's become, but I'm a great fan of what we saw in the old 1e-2e days. There's a great PDF swimming around on the internet, a campaign log written by Jeff Okamoto detailing his five years playing in Sandy Petersen's RQ game. It's a blast, and (of course) very old school. The account can be quite inspirational. Anyway, I recommend giving it a look.
I agree with Steven mitchell, Glorantha leaves me cold but RQ2 was amazing and adaptable. Also a great GM can make any setting fun.
Quote from: Omega on April 16, 2023, 09:27:45 AM
Other Suns: interesting setting. WTF system and a nasty designer on top of all that.
Universe: Complex yet surprisingly functional system. Barely any setting to it.
Two responses:
- I met Niall Shapero, we have some mutual friends. Seemed like a nice guy, harmless enough. Lives nearby and invited me to play in his campaign. Can I ask what you meant by "nasty designer?"
- Here's an interesting point. IMO, I don't need an RPG to provide a "setting." If I sit down to run a rules system, I probably already have elements in mind and just start translating my vision to paper. Universe doesn't really have an explicit setting, so that makes it "crap?"
Fading Suns.
I really like setting but the Victory Point System lefts me cold.
No wonder which each edition it was tinkered with extensively without much result (4e aside of woke elements seems most clunkiest mechanics wise).
Symbaroum - Really interesting setting. Unsure of the system.
Rifts - Love the setting. Not a fan of the system.
WoD Classic - Setting is great. System eats rancid balls.
Fading Suns - Cool setting. System... blech.
Warhammer/WH40K - LOVE the settings. Their systems for WHF are eh. 40k attempts at TTRPG's suck.
Quote from: tenbones on April 19, 2023, 06:53:16 PM
Symbaroum - Really interesting setting. Unsure of the system.
Rifts - Love the setting. Not a fan of the system.
WoD Classic - Setting is great. System eats rancid balls.
Fading Suns - Cool setting. System... blech.
Warhammer/WH40K - LOVE the settings. Their systems for WHF are eh. 40k attempts at TTRPG's suck.
I'm detecting a pattern here. Hold on a minute, it will come to me. :D
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 19, 2023, 07:42:26 PM
I'm detecting a pattern here. Hold on a minute, it will come to me. :D
"If it's not Savage Worlds it's crap!"