The best games you can run as a GM are those where you have no idea what's about to happen in the adventure.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
Please share anywhere you can, especially Twitter!
I agree with your overall philosophy of GMing. I describe it like giving kids a box of Lego, why would I want to force them to only build what's on the box?
Quote from: BadApple on July 07, 2023, 05:58:32 AM
I agree with your overall philosophy of GMing. I describe it like giving kids a box of Lego, why would I want to force them to only build what's on the box?
An apt analogy.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 06, 2023, 11:53:26 PM
The best games you can run as a GM are those where you have no idea what's about to happen in the adventure.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
Absolutely. I always cringe at GMs who have pages upon pages of notes. It makes them rigid. Like I'm being dragged through the fantasy novel they made. Similar to the Dragonlance campaigns. These kinds of GMs crumble the moment someone goes "I want to do this instead.". I think a lot of it comes from GMs treating Tabletop RPG design like a Video game. When players treat Tabletop games and video games very differently because they understand Video games are limited by what has been put in front of you versus the more free form and reactive design of Tabletop RPGs.
Basically you need to be able to be spontaneous and creative or you just aren't equipped to be a GM.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 07, 2023, 09:02:26 AM
Quote from: BadApple on July 07, 2023, 05:58:32 AM
I agree with your overall philosophy of GMing. I describe it like giving kids a box of Lego, why would I want to force them to only build what's on the box?
An apt analogy.
To extend the analogy, this is also why game mechanics (and their flexibility) are so important. Give a kid a box of identical Lego pieces and, while the kid may be able to make a broad approximation of whatever he envisions, the limits of the Lego shape and size will greatly alter what can be built (i.e. rigid unified mechanics...). Give the kid a huge supply of widely varied Legos and what he can reflect in his product is greatly increased, but it requires way more time and effort to find the right pieces and assemble them effectively (look at you, generic systems [cough]Gurps[/cough]). This is the one foundational advantage that the OSR (and older editions of D&D, pre-2e splats) has over other RPG design philosophies. The OSR leaves a large amount of adjudication at the table in the moment. It's like giving the kid a near instantaneous 3D printer for Legos: he can make the part he needs right then and there, without being restricted by shape or size and without needing to search through the box for it. So, while I certainly play and run "non-OSR" games as well (and enjoy many), the OSR does have an advantage that other design styles really don't, and the best OSR and Old School Clones are the ones that take advantage of that...
Hey, nice video. You got some good advice and ideas.
I really enjoy sandbox campaigns. Having few loose plans and lots of random tools also make GMing more fun because you get to be surprised, too.
What really helps me when I run sandbox games is: Introduce long-term* NPCs as early as possible. That way you have cast of NPCs at your disposal, and you're not stuck introducing the new NPC of the week. Your players may even remember old NPCs and seek them out for various reasons. It is really useful to have a villain introduced early, so the players always have a go-to action if they start to drift rudderless: go find the villain you lazy bastards!
*Plan for the NPCs to be long-term, but your players may have other ideas. In one adventure, the players abandoned an old retainer (great guy, super helpful, willing to look the other way) when they had to flee suddenly. The retainer eventually tracked them down for reasons only known to him (revenge!), and the players of course orchestrated to have him killed because he "knew too much."
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 07, 2023, 10:24:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 06, 2023, 11:53:26 PM
The best games you can run as a GM are those where you have no idea what's about to happen in the adventure.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
Absolutely. I always cringe at GMs who have pages upon pages of notes. It makes them rigid. Like I'm being dragged through the fantasy novel they made. Similar to the Dragonlance campaigns. These kinds of GMs crumble the moment someone goes "I want to do this instead.". I think a lot of it comes from GMs treating Tabletop RPG design like a Video game. When players treat Tabletop games and video games very differently because they understand Video games are limited by what has been put in front of you versus the more free form and reactive design of Tabletop RPGs.
Basically you need to be able to be spontaneous and creative or you just aren't equipped to be a GM.
Eh. It's all about moderation and/or knowing how to improv.
I run a mega campaign which due to the nature of the politics of it and the players interest in said politics I've had to keep plenty of detailed notes. Even before the players interest in the nobility of the game I had a slew of notes for each major character, important cities and nations. For me that's half the fun of being a GM. Making a world and letting my players explore it.
Does that mean I write down every single village and town and have them all pre made? No. That'll be a fools errand. I do however, write down the places my players go, the people they interact with and their actions. So if the players ever interact with those people or places again I'm not just pulling shit out from my ass.
Besides my methods, it's foolish to say someone pre planning out major plot points or having notes for events that they want to occur in the game world is a mark of a bad GM. Such events are how you can create tension, experience different stories and more. That mindset is akin to saying a GM who only improvs is lazy and terrible as a GM.
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 07, 2023, 10:24:50 AM
Absolutely. I always cringe at GMs who have pages upon pages of notes. It makes them rigid. Like I'm being dragged through the fantasy novel they made. Similar to the Dragonlance campaigns. These kinds of GMs crumble the moment someone goes "I want to do this instead.". I think a lot of it comes from GMs treating Tabletop RPG design like a Video game. When players treat Tabletop games and video games very differently because they understand Video games are limited by what has been put in front of you versus the more free form and reactive design of Tabletop RPGs.
Basically you need to be able to be spontaneous and creative or you just aren't equipped to be a GM.
There is nothing wrong with pages of notes as long as those notes are not some kind of script. Having multiple tables and pages of npc and monster statistics at the ready isn't a bad thing so long as they are not organized in a linear order. I like to have more material prepared than I think will be needed in a session because I don't know which parts the players will choose to engage with in a given session.
Disagree strongly.
Why?
Because not everyone can DM on the fly like some of us can. I can. But I know one DM who can not. And one who struggles with it.
Every DM is different and there is no "one true way".
Also one DMs style of on the fly DMing might be completely worthless to another. I personally really do not like "wandering wizard tower" style of freeform DMing where no matter where the PCs go that wizards tower WILL be on the path they took because "muh story!"
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 07, 2023, 10:24:50 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 06, 2023, 11:53:26 PM
The best games you can run as a GM are those where you have no idea what's about to happen in the adventure.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
Absolutely. I always cringe at GMs who have pages upon pages of notes. It makes them rigid. Like I'm being dragged through the fantasy novel they made. Similar to the Dragonlance campaigns. These kinds of GMs crumble the moment someone goes "I want to do this instead.". I think a lot of it comes from GMs treating Tabletop RPG design like a Video game. When players treat Tabletop games and video games very differently because they understand Video games are limited by what has been put in front of you versus the more free form and reactive design of Tabletop RPGs.
Basically you need to be able to be spontaneous and creative or you just aren't equipped to be a GM.
A video game, or a TV show.
Quote from: Omega on July 07, 2023, 08:01:42 PM
Disagree strongly.
Why?
Because not everyone can DM on the fly like some of us can. I can. But I know one DM who can not. And one who struggles with it.
Every DM is different and there is no "one true way".
Also one DMs style of on the fly DMing might be completely worthless to another. I personally really do not like "wandering wizard tower" style of freeform DMing where no matter where the PCs go that wizards tower WILL be on the path they took because "muh story!"
Like many other things, learning how to effectively DM is a skill set. It takes time and practice. You get better at it the more you do it.
Now, could there be some people who are just not capable of the kind of learning required? In theory, yes, but then those people are probably more suited to run games that involve very little setting; to work in a limited sandbox, like dungeons.
Quote from: Omega on July 07, 2023, 08:01:42 PM
Disagree strongly.
Why?
Because not everyone can DM on the fly like some of us can. I can. But I know one DM who can not. And one who struggles with it.
Every DM is different and there is no "one true way".
Also one DMs style of on the fly DMing might be completely worthless to another. I personally really do not like "wandering wizard tower" style of freeform DMing where no matter where the PCs go that wizards tower WILL be on the path they took because "muh story!"
GMs should prep as much material as makes them comfortable with GMing. But also, Don't Prep Plots (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots).
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
Quote from: BadApple on July 07, 2023, 05:58:32 AM
I agree with your overall philosophy of GMing. I describe it like giving kids a box of Lego, why would I want to force them to only build what's on the box?
I've just started a
Heavy Gear RPG campaign (d20 conversion), using the newly digitised re-releases. The world/setting is great, but the constant urgings not to do anything that might disrupt The Story (ie the Metaplot) are very silly/annoying/wearying. Yes I damn will disrupt
your story, oh mighty games designers! ::)
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 07, 2023, 07:16:11 PM
There is nothing wrong with pages of notes as long as those notes are not some kind of script.
Yes, indeed. It's very much about what you prep, and how you use it. Creating eg motivated NPCs, setting maps, encounter tables etc is all Good Prep. Creating a script to be adhered to is Bad Prep. I think these days I'd say that even
reading a scripted adventure is Bad Prep, unless maybe you're looking at how to gut it for parts.
With my Heavy Gear military game, I have been doing some 'mission prep' where eg I create some possible mission encounters. But they're very much a bare skeleton to hang the actual game on.
I'm a big believer in preparing for adventures; I usually spend about as much time preparing for a session as I do running it. There's a couple of reasons for this.
If I get the DM version of writers block I'd rather have it in my office by myself than in front of my group. That way it doesn't hold up the game, I can recover from it without slowing things down, and I don't do something dumb just to keep things moving.
It's a lot easier to keep things consistent and logical if I can go over them a couple of times before anyone else seems them. This is particularly important for clues and puzzles.
I like my games to feel more real, where things make sense, than dreamlike, where anything can happen at my whim. I can do that for my players when I improvise, but I lose the sense of reality myself when improvising, which makes running the game less fun for me.
I make better, more detailed, more consistent, more fun games when I prepare material. Even when thing inevitably go off the rails, I can still use much of what I've written.
Having an idea of the likely plot helps focus my time on the places in the adventure I should develop.
All that said, the players need to be able to do what they want to do for the game to be fun, and every DM has to be able to improvise to accommodate this. Having a plot planned out is enormously helpful for preparation, but I can recall only one time in my entire life when the players actually followed my expected plot.
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 10:57:10 AM
I've just started a Heavy Gear RPG campaign (d20 conversion), using the newly digitised re-releases. The world/setting is great, but the constant urgings not to do anything that might disrupt The Story (ie the Metaplot) are very silly/annoying/wearying. Yes I damn will disrupt your story, oh mighty games designers! ::)
OOOH! I am very curious: what is the premise of the sandbox? What sort of characters? Where are they all starting off?
As you might be able to tell from my user name, I used to be very much into Heavy Gear. Nowadays, less so. Largely because the metaplot did end up limiting me more than I would have liked. There's lots of wiggle room, but I got increasingly annoyed every time the metaplot made itself felt. And my players got salty about it too.
But I do miss me some perfectly-sized, gasoline powered gears rolling around on wheels, carrying gear-sized autocannon/shotgun over-under combo guns. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 07, 2023, 07:16:11 PM
There is nothing wrong with pages of notes as long as those notes are not some kind of script. Having multiple tables and pages of npc and monster statistics at the ready isn't a bad thing so long as they are not organized in a linear order. I like to have more material prepared than I think will be needed in a session because I don't know which parts the players will choose to engage with in a given session.
This. I like having lots of stuff written up, explaining the factions and different NPCs to interested readers: me, the GM. Once the notes are written up, I can use random encounter generators, as well world generators (for sci-fi games) to figure out what the adventure for the next session. But I don't prep big plots anymore for games, or campaigns. The campaign is whatever the players do. If they pick up one hook and run along that thread and deal with that issue/faction until the bitter end, then that's an overarching plot.
Or you can have episodic adventures of the week where the setting pops up here and there, based on the GM's notes. Or something in between.
But prep is important!
I think that one thing that Pundit is not mentioning:
he has done all the prep for his Silk Road campaign! It's called "Sword and Caravan."
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2023, 04:29:04 PM
I think that one thing that Pundit is not mentioning: he has done all the prep for his Silk Road campaign! It's called "Sword and Caravan."
That deserves reiterating.
I tried to run my last campaign the way the video recommends, and intend on running my next game that way. It's great if you can do it, but I'm not sure it's always practical. It pretty much requires a level of pre-written material comparable to Sword and Caravan or something like Hot Springs Island (which I'm getting ready to run). Double that if you're running the game on VTT and have to put together maps, tokens and all the rest. If you want to buy one of those products, or have time to write one (such as, say, if you were a professional RPG writer), then no problem. But for the average homebrewer, somebody who has a day job and maybe a family, but still wants to run a game in their own setting, I don't know if it's the best decision to delay your campaign by however many months it takes to write all the material necessary for that kind of automation, versus just starting the campaign and filling it in as you go along.
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2023, 04:23:14 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 10:57:10 AM
I've just started a Heavy Gear RPG campaign (d20 conversion), using the newly digitised re-releases. The world/setting is great, but the constant urgings not to do anything that might disrupt The Story (ie the Metaplot) are very silly/annoying/wearying. Yes I damn will disrupt your story, oh mighty games designers! ::)
OOOH! I am very curious: what is the premise of the sandbox? What sort of characters? Where are they all starting off?
As you might be able to tell from my user name, I used to be very much into Heavy Gear. Nowadays, less so. Largely because the metaplot did end up limiting me more than I would have liked. There's lots of wiggle room, but I got increasingly annoyed every time the metaplot made itself felt. And my players got salty about it too.
But I do miss me some perfectly-sized, gasoline powered gears rolling around on wheels, carrying gear-sized autocannon/shotgun over-under combo guns. ;D ;D ;D
;D
I think the Roll20 page is public https://app.roll20.net/campaigns/details/15444088/heavy-gear-d20-slash-5e
It is the Terra Novan Year 1937, and the Interpolar War is raging.
The CNCS city of Ashington on the southern border of the United Mercantile Federation is defended by her local heroes, Colonel Felicity Parx and the 109th Heavy Gear Regiment, the 'Lionhearts'. The first weeks of the war have been quiet on this front, as the South elsewhere has mostly been on the defensive, with Northern forces driving into Southern territory.
But out in the Badlands of the Western Desert, a storm is approaching. Aboard the AST Land Cruiser 'Imperatrice' is Commander Henri Mikashi and his 2nd Légion Noire Regiment 'The Damned', with orders to secure Ashington and the vast mineral riches of the Southern Spur...The PCs are members of a Gear Section assigned to a forward base in the northern badlands south of Ashington. Initially dealing with GREL & Rover raiders on the frontier, along with romance & relationships - at least for the one player who like me enjoys that sort of thing ;D - then it escalates as Southern Republic advance scout forces begin to enter the area, then again with the arrival of the Imperatrice and her regiment of
Legion Noire commandos.
I always try to deviate from official timeline early on in a campaign to free my mind up, in this case the main deviation point is the AST/SRA attacking & taking the Badlands city of Khayr-ad-Din early in TN 1937, as part of a more aggressive Republican prosecution of the war than the official timeline indicates. I'll probably do a lot of random rolls for how things progress, and of course the PCs will influence events.
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 05:57:26 PM
The PCs are members of a Gear Section assigned to a forward base in the northern badlands south of Ashington. Initially dealing with GREL & Rover raiders on the frontier, along with romance & relationships - at least for the one player who like me enjoys that sort of thing ;D
We've just did one solo session, yesterday, with Corporal 'Lion' Findlay training in the Gear proving ground near Ashington then enjoying his last night of freedom before deployment. Basically hitting on anything female in the bar (including 'Aimless' Watson, a fellow NPC Gear pilot), getting rejected a lot (even the stripper was too busy), then finally getting lucky with a drunken newly divorced doctor who it turns out had just been conscripted to the same unit as the PC. ;D The session ended with him waking her up, her puking in the toilet, her drunkenly driving them both back to the Gear Regimental HQ, luckily not running into any trucks on the highway, and the Orca taking them to Forward Base Lima. Then today we did a text chat session where Findlay was seducing Pvt Lusard, one of the base cooks (Findlay's player Muizz is incorrigible). :) The first actual combat session should be next week.
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2023, 04:23:14 PM
OOOH! I am very curious: what is the premise of the sandbox? What sort of characters? Where are they all starting off?
The PCs are all Gear pilots, I made a 10 level 5e-D&D based Gear Pilot class just for the game, and every player has to play one. Corporal Findlay (Muizz) is a hick from the Western Frontier Protectorate who had to skedaddle when the girl he was courting's Pappy took a dislike to him - and she had a lot of brothers. He pilots a Hunter. Trooper Thorkell (Bill) is a a battle scarred veteran of the War of the Alliance, he just likes to blow stuff up, pilots a Grizzly. I think he also wants to protect the daughter of his dead friend from the war, she (Trooper Amy 'Aimless' Watson) is a novice pilot in his unit - NPC, pilots a Cheetah. Senior Ranger Brent Carter (Rich) is a grizzled veteran NCO, also pilots a Grizzly.
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2023, 04:29:04 PM
I think that one thing that Pundit is not mentioning: he has done all the prep for his Silk Road campaign! It's called "Sword and Caravan."
Yeah, I think that setting prep is invaluable and can itself back manyfold. If you're doing it right then you shouldn't need to do any prep between sessions; maybe 30 minutes to update your records on what happened last session.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
I can't speak for him of course but my players frequently do the same thing, and I'm quite sure they're not trying to cause problems. Once you get out of the dungeon there are just so many options that it's impossible to consider them all. I just try te prep for the most likely ones then roll with whatever actually happens.
I ran a 1-on-1 campaign in the late 80s and the game was awesome but my notes are pathetically lean. It took place on Harn so the setting did a lot of the heavy lifting. I believe planning ahead is has to be vague and flexible or it is likely to be worthless or force the DM to force things. Improv takes time and practice but should be the goal. In my humble opinion.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2023, 07:02:04 AM
GMs should prep as much material as makes them comfortable with GMing. But also, Don't Prep Plots (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots).
\
Heh. I prep plots all the time. Every plot prepped however, belongs to an npc or group in the game world. The cult of Grubhabula has a plot to sacrifice enough innocent souls to awaken their dark god. The Duke's nephew is plotting to kill his uncle and take control of the duchy. The riverboat smugglers are plotting to kidnap the mayor's daughter for ransom. The players are free to discover, and interact with any or all of these things as they wish. There will be consequences in the game world whatever they decide to do. The PC's may come up with plots of their own regarding things they might wish to accomplish. I don't see a problem there.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.
No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.
I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 08, 2023, 09:48:07 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2023, 07:02:04 AM
GMs should prep as much material as makes them comfortable with GMing. But also, Don't Prep Plots (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots).
\
Heh. I prep plots all the time. Every plot prepped however, belongs to an npc or group in the game world. The cult of Grubhabula has a plot to sacrifice enough innocent souls to awaken their dark god. The Duke's nephew is plotting to kill his uncle and take control of the duchy. The riverboat smugglers are plotting to kidnap the mayor's daughter for ransom. The players are free to discover, and interact with any or all of these things as they wish. There will be consequences in the game world whatever they decide to do. The PC's may come up with plots of their own regarding things they might wish to accomplish. I don't see a problem there.
:P
QuoteDictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·
plot
noun
1.
a plan made in secret by a group of people to do something illegal or harmful.
2.
the main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence.
I and the article are talking about definition 2. You're bringing up definition 1.
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.
No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.
I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.
By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 11:36:04 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.
No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.
I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.
By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.
Actually I played in several of his games, and good times were had by all. His games were emulating a particular genre that I enjoy and am somewhat knowledgeable about, and he liked having a player that understood the tropes and ran with them. I think the overly-extensive notes were a kind of comfort blanket.
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:39:51 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 11:36:04 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.
No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.
I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.
By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.
Actually I played in several of his games, and good times were had by all. His games were emulating a particular genre that I enjoy and am somewhat knowledgeable about, and he liked having a player that understood the tropes and ran with them. I think the overly-extensive notes were a kind of comfort blanket.
Did you ever try to give him advice on how to do it better? I can write over-extensive notes on key NPCs and in-game political situations to better react to what the players have their characters do. I keep notes on a bunch of side treks to keep the game going if the players do something totally unexpected and I need to stall a bit to recover my own bearings.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2023, 02:45:34 AM
Now, could there be some people who are just not capable of the kind of learning required? In theory, yes, but then those people are probably more suited to run games that involve very little setting; to work in a limited sandbox, like dungeons.
Not a theory. I know personally 2 DMs who completely suck at full blown on the fly DMing. One runs modules. The other spends hours on hours prepping what might as well be modules.
Freeform DMing is not a skill, its an aptitude. And some have it, some do not.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2023, 07:02:04 AM
GMs should prep as much material as makes them comfortable with GMing. But also, Don't Prep Plots (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots).
Unfortunately some DMs do not get this till its too late.
Quote from: Mishihari on July 08, 2023, 07:10:04 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
I can't speak for him of course but my players frequently do the same thing, and I'm quite sure they're not trying to cause problems. Once you get out of the dungeon there are just so many options that it's impossible to consider them all. I just try te prep for the most likely ones then roll with whatever actually happens.
Yeah, no matter how much you try to second guess players they can and eventually will do the unexpected. And often it really is accidental.
But I have seen a few who just seem to only be playing to fuck with the DM.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 09, 2023, 04:11:08 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:39:51 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 11:36:04 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 08, 2023, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on July 08, 2023, 08:16:35 AM
There was a guy who would occasionally GM for my group, and required several months of prep per adventure, and would lay out every possible course of PC action.
Of course I would do something unexpected 5 minutes in to the game...
So, were you deliberately trying to fuck with him and screw up the game for everyone at the table?
Show me on the doll where the player hurt you.
No, I simply did something unexpected, because I'm creative and the GM isn't. In this particular case I had to escape a building, then flee the scene. He'd planned for stuff like fighting my way out, using ducts, etc; but I rappelled down the building. Then he had plans for me escaping on foot, by public transport, stealing a car; but since I was wearing a nice suit I simply hailed a cab.
I didn't read his overly extensive notes, then purposefully plan how to upset them, I just did something he hadn't planned for, because inventive players will surprise a GM.
By the way you wrote it, I was wondering if you were deliberately screwing with a DM whose style you disdained. Like you, I think a good DM needs to know how to improvise. Unlike you, if I know that a DMs style clashes with my play style, I won't play at their table.
Actually I played in several of his games, and good times were had by all. His games were emulating a particular genre that I enjoy and am somewhat knowledgeable about, and he liked having a player that understood the tropes and ran with them. I think the overly-extensive notes were a kind of comfort blanket.
Did you ever try to give him advice on how to do it better? I can write over-extensive notes on key NPCs and in-game political situations to better react to what the players have their characters do. I keep notes on a bunch of side treks to keep the game going if the players do something totally unexpected and I need to stall a bit to recover my own bearings.
Of course. I can be rough around the edges with posts here (because it's practically the only place on the net where one can) but IRL I'm actually half agony aunt/half facilitator, and often act as a sounding board and font of advice for all and sundry, in and out of game.
The fellow in question is a good guy, and smart, but incredibly tightly wound, and has some...issues. He uses an extensive system of notes, but is very much someone that insists on doing everything 'just so,' and isn't big on flexibility.
Still, as I said, going off path has never derailed one of his games. I've known GM's that utterly stall if a player slightly deviates from what's in the written adventure, but he's not one of them. That having been said, I've only gone off script as far as finding lines of inquiry or escapes/attacks that he hadn't thought of.
If he got a player that wants to really go off the reservation, I'm pretty sure this GM would slam down his books and storm off home. Which I've seen him do as a player.
Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2023, 04:52:28 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2023, 02:45:34 AM
Now, could there be some people who are just not capable of the kind of learning required? In theory, yes, but then those people are probably more suited to run games that involve very little setting; to work in a limited sandbox, like dungeons.
Not a theory. I know personally 2 DMs who completely suck at full blown on the fly DMing. One runs modules. The other spends hours on hours prepping what might as well be modules.
Freeform DMing is not a skill, its an aptitude. And some have it, some do not.
Exactly. Tabula Rasa is nonsense, lots of people have hard limits on what they can or can't learn, as well as natural aptitudes.
Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2023, 04:58:56 AMBut I have seen a few who just seem to only be playing to fuck with the DM.
I know players who want to 'win' at all costs. Players that want to meta game, and plow through adventures like a steam roller.
The second worse type of player is the "I always play the annoying race/class, so I can act like a dick and call it roleplaying."
The worst type is "my real life is shitty, so in my elf games I just want to kill everyone and blow shit up. I don't care if it's the King, my lone-wolf badass kneels to no man. Roll for attack!"
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 06:14:04 PM
The PCs are all Gear pilots, I made a 10 level 5e-D&D based Gear Pilot class just for the game, and every player has to play one. Corporal Findlay (Muizz) is a hick from the Western Frontier Protectorate who had to skedaddle when the girl he was courting's Pappy took a dislike to him - and she had a lot of brothers. He pilots a Hunter. Trooper Thorkell (Bill) is a a battle scarred veteran of the War of the Alliance, he just likes to blow stuff up, pilots a Grizzly. I think he also wants to protect the daughter of his dead friend from the war, she (Trooper Amy 'Aimless' Watson) is a novice pilot in his unit - NPC, pilots a Cheetah. Senior Ranger Brent Carter (Rich) is a grizzled veteran NCO, also pilots a Grizzly.
Cool! All that, and the setting info you mentioned upthread is very nice. I'm a big fan of the Interpolar War because it's fought for all the wrong reasons, and all the factions are play, while the two big power blocs are slowly coming apart at the seams. So you can really do anything you like. Personally, I'm a big fan of the Khayr-ad Din Army because it seems to be exactly the sort of place for a bunch of diverse player characters to end up in. Fighting the polars and the GRELS of the NHR on the edge of the Great White Desert, etc...
As you can see, I did my prep for playing on Terranova a long, long time ago... but aside from a handful of one-offs, I haven't returned since 2012. We'll see how the 4e stands up before I consider it...
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 06:23:12 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2023, 04:29:04 PM
I think that one thing that Pundit is not mentioning: he has done all the prep for his Silk Road campaign! It's called "Sword and Caravan."
Yeah, I think that setting prep is invaluable and can itself back manyfold. If you're doing it right then you shouldn't need to do any prep between sessions; maybe 30 minutes to update your records on what happened last session.
I find that a lot of my prep is specific to whatever the players are about to do: maps, NPCs, obstacles, etc. I ask them at the end of every session "What are you doing/where are you going?" Then I prep for that. If they change their minds, then I try my best to roll with whatever they want, but they have almost always stuck to their plans. Which is rather praiseworthy. It's almost as if they know that this is a game and I'm doing most of the work! :-D
I'd push back a bit. This is probably the right way to run stuff, but it actually isn't natural for everyone (at least not for me). The only time I've every pulled this off is in Vampire LARPS - not the random table part, but the player's doing what they wanted and a fun game coming out of it. At some point I'll pick a campaign idea and then harass all of you into helping me.
To put it a different way, I think the obvious, easy way to run an RPG game is with a canned scenario and plot. Anyone can do that. However, a sandbox campaign isn't easy at all, it just seems easy because it's easy for you.
A great example of this is loopy planning - even if you don't know what that is you're probably doing something like it, where you think about prior sessions, and think about what may have happened, and then extrapolate the next thing that would happen. E.g., player's decided to ignore threat X, so now threat X is a much bigger deal, or player's allied with A, so now A's enemy B is not a fan of them. For most people on this thread, you can easily turn these things into interesting play. I've hardly ever been able to do that (outside of Vampire LARP, and even that was a struggle).
The normal response is that it's just practice, but I'm wondering if that answer is a cultural thing. In our culture, we're not supposed to believe anyone has different capacities - that's a belief that serves liberal capitalism (you're not well off because you didn't apply yourself) and progressives (everyone is just a blank slate, the only differences in outcome are because of oppression). It might be instead that for a smaller group of people good sandbox GMing is very easy, and for a larger group of people it's very hard. And it's not that the smaller group has "worked harder," but they're just built to be better at it.
The best I've been able to do so far is to take published campaigns and hollow them out a bit, which has worked pretty well. I'd like to be more aggressive about hollowing them out (reverse engineering what all the moving parts are).
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 09, 2023, 12:05:13 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Khayr-ad Din Army
That's funny considering I just posted this today in the media feed ;D
SNN media newscast 9.WI.37
"This is Lucia Ferox for Satellite News Network, reporting from Khayr-Ad-Din, the so-called 'City of Duellists'. The Southern Republic Landship Imperatrice and the infamous 2nd Legion Noire are supporting AST MILICIA in a massive assault on the city! The warrior-gladiators of the KADA are fighting ferociously against the invaders, inflicting heavy losses on the less skilled Gear pilots of the enemy MILICIA. But the KADA are vastly outnumbered, and almost without vital artillery support. Many here fear that unless the North can immediately commit forces to assist KADA, defeat may be inevitable."
I invented Satellite News Network (SNN), I'm thinking it's a CNCS copy of the Badlands-based SNS network. The AST assault on KAD is part of my plan to immediately deviate from the scripted timeline, since I think it's very important to not get locked in to metaplots.
Quote from: S'mon on July 09, 2023, 01:14:13 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 09, 2023, 12:05:13 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Khayr-ad Din Army
That's funny considering I just posted this today in the media feed ;D
SNN media newscast 9.WI.37
"This is Lucia Ferox for Satellite News Network, reporting from Khayr-Ad-Din, the so-called 'City of Duellists'. The Southern Republic Landship Imperatrice and the infamous 2nd Legion Noire are supporting AST MILICIA in a massive assault on the city! The warrior-gladiators of the KADA are fighting ferociously against the invaders, inflicting heavy losses on the less skilled Gear pilots of the enemy MILICIA. But the KADA are vastly outnumbered, and almost without vital artillery support. Many here fear that unless the North can immediately commit forces to assist KADA, defeat may be inevitable."
I invented Satellite News Network (SNN), I'm thinking it's a CNCS copy of the Badlands-based SNS network. The AST assault on KAD is part of my plan to immediately deviate from the scripted timeline, since I think it's very important to not get locked in to metaplots.
Ow, my feelings!
Yeah, KADA probably could stand up to another two-bit army in the Badlands like the NHR (even with GRELs and some hovertanks). But a full landship with airpower and artillery? Unlikely.
Then again, highly skilled gear pilots, along with mercenaries, and fighting-capable locals (of which there would be many, considering it's the Badlands) with access to mountains of trash (military salvage!)... and they know the terrain better than the invaders... It would be an epic defense either way.
I think that the TNTR might be the key to KAD surviving, no? They can tell the AST to back off, lest the gamma maglev gets cut... which would provoke the North to intervene in KAD.
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 09, 2023, 01:33:41 PM
I think that the TNTR might be the key to KAD surviving, no? They can tell the AST to back off, lest the gamma maglev gets cut... which would provoke the North to intervene in KAD.
Well game date is 10/WI/37. the war is ongoing and the Gamma Maglev has already been cut. AST command believe the North is already fully committed on the Mekong & Eastern fronts, but I think really they'd be quite happy to draw out the thin Northern Guard line along the central CNCS border into the Badlands to fight for KAD, as opposed to strengthening their defenses against an AST offensive.
KADA is inflicting heavy losses on the MILICIA, yes - the AST command see this as "tempering" the MILICIA units with combat experience, prior to a planned push north. The SRA elite 2nd Legion Noire commandos are being held back in support while the MILICIA bears the brunt of the battle.
Needs balance.
1) DM preparing a bunch of events or situations that may or may not occur and locations that players might visit.
or
2) DM spending game time looking up the proper tables, rolling dice, following any subtables it leads to rolling more dice, and noting the results for current play and future reference.