TheRPGSite

Quote from: rgrove0172;996082Sorry, havent read through the whole thread but just picked up D&D 5th ed. and was very disappointed in the grappling rules. Essentially all it does is render your opponent immobile. I assume you can still attack him in your turn etc. but it doesnt specifically say so. Kind of left me wondering. Planned to immediately house rule something different but am looking around first. Surely somebody but me thought it sucked as is.

I'm not an expert on 5E, but I think what they are going for is that you need multiple attacks to grapple and do damage on the same turn:

QuoteIf you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

So you would grapple, then use the other attack to do damage. I think a character without multiple attacks does this:  

Round 1: grapple
Round 2: attack

I always liked the rules for wrasslin' in TSR Marvel Super Heroes.

Quote from: tenbones;995985FASERIP - This is a straight up Strength check. You can grab, hold, full-hold. Each condition has it's own set of conditions. I modify it to be a Fighting check (because it made super-strong characters unstoppable and was "unrealistic" vs. skilled opponents). But you can do *all* the things Grappling is designed to do and it's fun and quick and requires no crazy calculation.
.

FASERIP! Why didn't I think of that?

Quote from:  Marvel SHA Grappling Attack is an attack designed to limit the movement abilities of the opponent. A Grappling attack may score a Miss, Partial Hold, or Hold result.

• A Miss indicates the attacker has failed to hold onto the opponent. The attacker may not make other attacks this round.

• A Partial Hold indicates the attacker has grabbed onto an arm, leg, or other part in such a way that will limit actions but not reduce them in full. The attacker may choose exactly what she has grabbed onto. The target may perform any normal actions, but at a -2 CS penalty, and may not move if the attacker's Strength is equal to or greater than the target's. No damage is inflicted in a Partial Hold.

• A Full Hold indicates the attacker has placed the target in a position where the target is fully restrained from action, and may damage the target. The target is considered held until the attacker releases the target or the target escapes. The attacker may perform one action in addition to maintaining the hold, and may inflict up to the Strength level of damage to the target (subject to Body Armor).

Escapes:

QuoteEscaping is an action used by individuals placed in a hold to slip free of the opponent and possibly reverse the damage. A character making an escape may Miss,
Escape, or Reverse the Hold.

• A character scoring a Miss result may make no other action that turn, and is considered held.
• A character scoring an Escape result is free of the hold. The character may move at half speed, but may not perform any other actions.
• A character scoring a Reverse is free of the hold and in a position to do one of the following: Move up to half distance. attempt to Grapple the former attacker, or perform any other action at a -2 CS.

Looks like it would be fast in play and not too hard to remember.

Quote from: tenbones;995985If we're talking just "generic" systems - I suppose it depends on what you want from Grappling.

It depends on what you want to cover. Some systems want verisimilitude (which as a wrestler I'm rarely satisfied with) others try to emulate cinematic grappling (which I prefer). Basically you want to cover: grabbing a person/object, restraining, taking them to the ground, doing damage via holds, and escaping someone trying to grapple you. All of this has to be done within the context of what your combat system pretends to emphasize. PLUS it has to account for the effects upon you for actually grappling (prone, unable to defend yourself, etc).

Especially once you get into the nitty-gritty of round-by-round combat. Systems I felt worked well for me:

1e Oriental Adventures (martial arts) - Very black-belt theater and cinematic. Locks, Throws, Prone fighting, Sticking Touch, all the fun crazy stuff.

FASERIP - This is a straight up Strength check. You can grab, hold, full-hold. Each condition has it's own set of conditions. I modify it to be a Fighting check (because it made super-strong characters unstoppable and was "unrealistic" vs. skilled opponents). But you can do *all* the things Grappling is designed to do and it's fun and quick and requires no crazy calculation.

Savage Worlds - Works pretty similar to FASERIP. Fighting check to land the grapple. Contested check to escape. Grappled has its own set of conditions of do's and don't. Easy peasy.

Cyberpunk 2020 - Contested roll. The premise being that you're using a martial art that emphasizes grappling/throws etc. Otherwise you're going to get KTFO'd. Maneuvers are on a big table. Choose wisely. Very action-cinematic especially if you're using the Pacfic Rim book.

Missed your post...yeah, Marvel Super Heroes alias FASERIP was good for simple wrasslin' and grapplin' rules. Made playing guys like the Thing a hoot and a half. I'd leave it a Strength check, personally, since I just don't see Captain America's fighting skills helping him much once Ben Grimm has his mighty meathooks on Cap.

Quote from: Dumarest;996112Missed your post...yeah, Marvel Super Heroes alias FASERIP was good for simple wrasslin' and grapplin' rules. Made playing guys like the Thing a hoot and a half. I'd leave it a Strength check, personally, since I just don't see Captain America's fighting skills helping him much once Ben Grimm has his mighty meathooks on Cap.

In play - it is too powerful for bricks and makes Strength a bit of an uberstat. Someone like Spiderman has very little chance of ever getting away from someone with high super-strength (edit: actually he has the same chance. He has a greater chance of getting hit . As a general rule in Marvel most people with high Strength tend to not have equally high Fighting. Someone like the Hulk whose fighting, for example, is not very high (relatively) has much easier chance of simply grabbing and crushing the crap out of people that are highly mobile using a Strength-based Grappling check - like Spiderman, Cap etc. than simply punching them, which is a Fighting check. This does not make much sense especially on characters that have superior fighting skills.

As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power. It's not so much that the Thing *should* not crush Cap or Spidey flat - damage application in FASERIP is simply brute-strength slapped on you automatically. Escaping that hold is still a Yellow result. Not many characters have high Fighting stats in Marvel. Those that do - are known for being skilled combatants that are slippery. And someone like the Thing only needs a few solid hits to take someone like Spiderman or Cap out barring a Stun.

yeah yeah I know this is an RPG. So my position developed by simple experimentation. I simply made that one tweak - and sure enough it plays better. The vast majority of character that are hard to hit - remain hard to hit. But if they do get grappled, they still have to make a check to get out and still run the risk of taking a *lot* of damage by dealing with someone with vastly larger strength. In terms of comicbook combat - it works out great for the ebb and flow of of the genre.

It's also more consistent with the established multiple attack check based on Fighting - it lets skilled fighters really emphasize Grappling as a real useful tactic as well as allowing those that are skilled get the hell out.

Edited for clarity

Quote from: tenbones;996266In play - it is too powerful for bricks and makes Strength a bit of an uberstat. Someone like Spiderman has very little chance of ever getting away from someone with high super-strength (edit: actually he has the same chance. He has a greater chance of getting hit - as most people with high Strength tend to not have equally high Fighting). Someone like the Hulk whose fighting, for example is not very high (appropriately) has much easier chance of simply grabbing and crushing the crap out of people that are highly mobile - like Spiderman, Cap etc. than simply punching them.

As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power. It's not so much that the Thing *should* not crush Cap or Spidey flat - damage application in FASERIP is simply brute-strength slapped on you automatically. Escaping that hold is still a Yellow result. Not many characters have high Fighting stats in Marvel. Those that do - are known for being skilled combatants that are slippery. And someone like the Thing only needs a few solid hits to take someone like Spiderman or Cap out barring a Stun.

yeah yeah I know this is an RPG. So my position developed by simple experimentation. I simply made that one tweak - and sure enough it plays better. The vast majority of character that are hard to hit - remain hard to hit. But if they do get grappled, they still have to make a check to get out and still run the risk of taking a *lot* of damage by dealing with someone with vastly larger strength. In terms of comicbook combat - it works out great for the ebb and flow of comicbook combat.

It's also more consistent with the established multiple attack check based on Fighting - it lets skilled fighters really emphasize Grappling as a real useful tactic as well as allowing those that are skilled get the hell out.

I guess Spider-Man in your games just stands still and lets himself get grappled. :rolleyes:

Quote from: tenbones;996266As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power.

So, what are wrestling weight classes for?

Quote from: Dumarest;996307I guess Spider-Man in your games just stands still and lets himself get grappled. :rolleyes:

Not at all. Spidersense= Combat Sense = Fighting rank. Evade ftw. Otherwise Dodge Dodge Dodge. Much easier to Dodge RM Fighting - Hulk, INC Fighting Thing - than Unearthly Strength+ grapple.

That make more sense? heh

Quote from: Ras Algethi;996312So, what are wrestling weight classes for?

In real wrestling? It's for differences in strength in relation to weight. The assumption is the contestants are going to be equal in proportion, but larger guys have an advantage skill for skill vs lighter opponents in that they will be generally stronger. This is fact is not due to skill but simple physics. But since you're not trying to hurt people in wrestling, you *do* use your strength for holds, manipulations and moving your opponent around to get into position which simulates the "damage" or effect aspect of the Grappling mechanics.  Fighting should be used for establishing the grapple condition - everything after that is Strength(Slams, Damage etc.)

In FASERIP (and how I do it) our example assume only one person is trying to grapple - the guy with super-strength. In my rules-change  it's using fighting to get out of a grapple i.e. you're in a bad position. Which matches my contention it's skill not brute power that gets you out of a grapple.

Generally being GOOD at wrestling as a skill is what gets you out of a bad position. Not your strength. Your strength will allow you to hold and crank on your opponent, move them around etc. My change exemplifies that perfectly. Further - Grappling in FASERIP is not just representative of *wrestling* - it's representative of that, plus Grappling as combat.

A strong guy that doesn't know how to grapple will get *choked the fuck out* by someone that does know how to fight and is much smaller. Likewise a smaller guy that knows how to fight with grappling throwing skills- wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, judo, etc. can get out of lesser skilled grappling guys that are vastly stronger.

See UFC for *countless* examples. But some of the best examples of course is Royce Gracie in those early matches against brawlers and other mall-martial artists - and also against other skilled and stronger opponents who also had good grappling skills like Dan Severn.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: tenbones;996266As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power.

I agree. However, I remember sparring with a judoka and asking him "If you are always using your opponent's strength against him, how come you can bench-press a Chevy?"

Quote from: tenbones;996052I'm not familiar with it. I have zero doubt that GURPS probably takes it crazy technical levels to give it that nod to "realism". I could never get my players to try it.

It models pretty much what you described when you talked about skill versus strength. The grappling rules in the Basic Set don't seem crazy technical to me (...) but do explicitly involve choosing what to do, and using appropriate values (ST, DX, skills, weight, current situation) of both figures to see whether it succeeds or not.

(To me, it seems like actually representing things at some level is what's needed to not get results that don't match the situation. e.g. if you use ST only, then Hulk always squishes Spiderman. If you use Fighting but have not separate Wrestling/Judo/etc skills, then there is no way to have a skilled wrestler who isn't a skilled fighter nor vice versa.)

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;996529I agree. However, I remember sparring with a judoka and asking him "If you are always using your opponent's strength against him, how come you can bench-press a Chevy?"

Well sure! A strong judoka *will* hurt you with a strong throw, once they've gotten you into position.

My first experience with a high-level judoka was a 5'4" guy that weighed about 110lbs when I weighed 228lbs and was in my wrestling prime and he tossed me with such ridiculous (Large Outer Wheel throw) ease I don't think I ever felt so physically humbled. Had he been physically stronger and went full out - I'd likely have been KTFO'd. Hell, I think he could have done that anyhow and he only went easy on me so he didn't hurt me.

In terms of superheroes, this is precisely why characters with vast super-strength AND extremely highly skill levels in fighting, would be ridiculously dangerous. FASERIP as it pertains to Marvel handles this very well. It's also why if you scaled DC characters into Marvel scale (Post Crisis era) why Superman would get his ass kicked by Thor.

Quote from: Skarg;996538(To me, it seems like actually representing things at some level is what's needed to not get results that don't match the situation. e.g. if you use ST only, then Hulk always squishes Spiderman. If you use Fighting but have not separate Wrestling/Judo/etc skills, then there is no way to have a skilled wrestler who isn't a skilled fighter nor vice versa.)

That's correct!

As a small addendum - in FASERIP if you have the Wrestling Skill or Martial Arts C your attempts at Grappling (and in some cases doing damage) raises your CS by +2 to Grapple checks with Wrestling and +1 CS to Grapple AND Damage with Martial Arts C. If you have Martial Arts B, you get +1 CS to Wrestling Grapple checks AND damage. This is cumulative. So FASERIP does take into account specific skills.

Quote from: tenbones;996052I'm not familiar with it. I have zero doubt that GURPS probably takes it crazy technical levels to give it that nod to "realism". I could never get my players to try it.

Well, too bad. I am considering it, but still wonder how much improvement it is...

Quote from: Aglondir;996110FASERIP! Why didn't I think of that?

Escapes:

Looks like it would be fast in play and not too hard to remember.

Indeed, it is a good example - though for my money, add the houserule Tenbones mentioned. Makes total sense, unless you want Hulk to be a more skilled grappler than Batman.

Quote from: Dumarest;996112Missed your post...yeah, Marvel Super Heroes alias FASERIP was good for simple wrasslin' and grapplin' rules. Made playing guys like the Thing a hoot and a half. I'd leave it a Strength check, personally, since I just don't see Captain America's fighting skills helping him much once Ben Grimm has his mighty meathooks on Cap.

I can see it, though. I have been grabbed by younger, fitter people that are literally twice as strong as me, and freed myself without too much effort.

Quote from: tenbones;996266In play - it is too powerful for bricks and makes Strength a bit of an uberstat. Someone like Spiderman has very little chance of ever getting away from someone with high super-strength (edit: actually he has the same chance. He has a greater chance of getting hit . As a general rule in Marvel most people with high Strength tend to not have equally high Fighting. Someone like the Hulk whose fighting, for example, is not very high (relatively) has much easier chance of simply grabbing and crushing the crap out of people that are highly mobile using a Strength-based Grappling check - like Spiderman, Cap etc. than simply punching them, which is a Fighting check. This does not make much sense especially on characters that have superior fighting skills.

As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power. It's not so much that the Thing *should* not crush Cap or Spidey flat - damage application in FASERIP is simply brute-strength slapped on you automatically. Escaping that hold is still a Yellow result. Not many characters have high Fighting stats in Marvel. Those that do - are known for being skilled combatants that are slippery. And someone like the Thing only needs a few solid hits to take someone like Spiderman or Cap out barring a Stun.

yeah yeah I know this is an RPG. So my position developed by simple experimentation. I simply made that one tweak - and sure enough it plays better. The vast majority of character that are hard to hit - remain hard to hit. But if they do get grappled, they still have to make a check to get out and still run the risk of taking a *lot* of damage by dealing with someone with vastly larger strength. In terms of comicbook combat - it works out great for the ebb and flow of of the genre.

It's also more consistent with the established multiple attack check based on Fighting - it lets skilled fighters really emphasize Grappling as a real useful tactic as well as allowing those that are skilled get the hell out.

Edited for clarity

That conforms with my limited experience, too, FWIW;).

Quote from: tenbones;996347In real wrestling? It's for differences in strength in relation to weight. The assumption is the contestants are going to be equal in proportion, but larger guys have an advantage skill for skill vs lighter opponents in that they will be generally stronger. This is fact is not due to skill but simple physics. But since you're not trying to hurt people in wrestling, you *do* use your strength for holds, manipulations and moving your opponent around to get into position which simulates the "damage" or effect aspect of the Grappling mechanics.  Fighting should be used for establishing the grapple condition - everything after that is Strength(Slams, Damage etc.)

In FASERIP (and how I do it) our example assume only one person is trying to grapple - the guy with super-strength. In my rules-change  it's using fighting to get out of a grapple i.e. you're in a bad position. Which matches my contention it's skill not brute power that gets you out of a grapple.

Generally being GOOD at wrestling as a skill is what gets you out of a bad position. Not your strength. Your strength will allow you to hold and crank on your opponent, move them around etc. My change exemplifies that perfectly. Further - Grappling in FASERIP is not just representative of *wrestling* - it's representative of that, plus Grappling as combat.

A strong guy that doesn't know how to grapple will get *choked the fuck out* by someone that does know how to fight and is much smaller. Likewise a smaller guy that knows how to fight with grappling throwing skills- wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, judo, etc. can get out of lesser skilled grappling guys that are vastly stronger.

See UFC for *countless* examples. But some of the best examples of course is Royce Gracie in those early matches against brawlers and other mall-martial artists - and also against other skilled and stronger opponents who also had good grappling skills like Dan Severn.

Also, this:).

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;996529I agree. However, I remember sparring with a judoka and asking him "If you are always using your opponent's strength against him, how come you can bench-press a Chevy?"

Because being skilled and strong never hurts (you):D?

Quote from: Skarg;996538It models pretty much what you described when you talked about skill versus strength. The grappling rules in the Basic Set don't seem crazy technical to me (...) but do explicitly involve choosing what to do, and using appropriate values (ST, DX, skills, weight, current situation) of both figures to see whether it succeeds or not.

(To me, it seems like actually representing things at some level is what's needed to not get results that don't match the situation. e.g. if you use ST only, then Hulk always squishes Spiderman. If you use Fighting but have not separate Wrestling/Judo/etc skills, then there is no way to have a skilled wrestler who isn't a skilled fighter nor vice versa.)

Yeah, but I was asking explicitly about the Technical Grappling supplement;). I've read the Basic Set enough times that I can judge it for myself.

Quote from: AsenRG;996640...Yeah, but I was asking explicitly about the Technical Grappling supplement;). I've read the Basic Set enough times that I can judge it for myself.

You asked Tenbones, so I wasn't responding to that.

Personally, I think GURPS Technical Grappling is great. It's exactly the sort of supplement I want for GURPS, as a simulationist/realism-oriented player who likes piles of detailed rules for playing out tactical combat in great detail, and a player who's played GURPS that way for decades and so doesn't mind the complexity and is interested in cherry-picking and inventing various tweaks to the rules. But for players who aren't like that, aren't really interested in grappling rules beyond the pretty good ones in the Basic Set, or are new to GURPS, it's probably way more than they need. It's a 50-page book on grappling and related topics (it also has brawling-type stuff, animal fighting techniques, etc). It re-designs unarmed combat in a way I find even more interesting (and that is more generally applicable) than GURPS Martial Arts. I think that's awesome. People wanting to run a wrestling or brawling or advanced martial arts campaign (or just one with lots of unarmed combat where players enjoy detailed rules for situations) might also really like it. Probably way overkill for many others.

Quote from: Skarg;996662You asked Tenbones, so I wasn't responding to that.

Personally, I think GURPS Technical Grappling is great. It's exactly the sort of supplement I want for GURPS, as a simulationist/realism-oriented player who likes piles of detailed rules for playing out tactical combat in great detail, and a player who's played GURPS that way for decades and so doesn't mind the complexity and is interested in cherry-picking and inventing various tweaks to the rules. But for players who aren't like that, aren't really interested in grappling rules beyond the pretty good ones in the Basic Set, or are new to GURPS, it's probably way more than they need. It's a 50-page book on grappling and related topics (it also has brawling-type stuff, animal fighting techniques, etc). It re-designs unarmed combat in a way I find even more interesting (and that is more generally applicable) than GURPS Martial Arts. I think that's awesome. People wanting to run a wrestling or brawling or advanced martial arts campaign (or just one with lots of unarmed combat where players enjoy detailed rules for situations) might also really like it. Probably way overkill for many others.

Actually,I was asking anyone who has experience with grappling/wrestling and has read it.

Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

Quote from: Headless;995941I don't have a DMG.  Its in three different spots in the players hand book.  I borrowed a DMG and read most of it.  I found it boring.  And there wasn't anything in it I needed so I didn't buy it.  When I run 5th again I will take another look thanks.

I found the DMG added a lot to 5e, especially clarifications in combat and lots of optional rules you can switch on or off.
5e before the DMG was probably TOO vague and inconsistent it's true.  Especially definitions of combat options, the weird usage of Skill kits (lock licks kits etc), ambushing (passive perception etc).

Quote from: AsenRG;996677Actually,I was asking anyone who has experience with grappling/wrestling and has read it.

Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

It introduces a new effect resolution mechanic. Instead of "roll to hit, foe defends, if fail, then he's "Grappled" and at -4 to DX," it posits that not all grapples are created equal, and you make a damage roll based on ST and training (oddly enough called Trained ST) that is on the same table as striking, and accumulating control points - the currency of grappling damage - causes your foe to be more and more restrained. That is, builds up penalties to ST and DX.

You can spend control points to cause injury and other stuff.

There are things that a notional second edition of Technical Grappling would probably do differently, but then, the book was written in 2013 and published in 2015, and the author has a bit more experience with organizing books, writing books, and what works for fast play at the table. Or so he says. :-)

Anyone getting any use out of the grapple push combo in 5th?  Basicly you start a grapple, then with your next attack, do a push, push them prone and they're hosed.

Grapple says reduce movement to 0.  You need movement to stand up.  So before you can get up you need to break a grapple.  While prone you are at disadvantage to attack, people beside you are at advantage to hit.  

Its not all that stuff from facerip, or gurps, but its one more level.

Quote from: AsenRG;996677Actually,I was asking anyone who has experience with grappling/wrestling and has read it.

Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

The basic premise is that you attack normally and instead of doing damage or inflict a condition you build up control points which can be spent on outcomes related to grappling including pinning and doing damage. One of the strengths of the system when multiple people are grappling the use of control points make it clear who has the advantage.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996754... There are things that a notional second edition of Technical Grappling would probably do differently, but then, the book was written in 2013 and published in 2015, and the author has a bit more experience with organizing books, writing books, and what works for fast play at the table. Or so he says. :-)

I'd gladly pre-order the second edition!
Are there any rumors about what the author might probably do differently?

Quote from: AsenRG;996677Sounds interesting - but how tied is it to GURPS: Martial Arts? Does it introduce something like a separate sub-system, or just new Techniques?

As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

It is tied to GURPS: Martial Arts in that it is written as if you already have that book, and it references several elements (e.g. techniques, hit locations and equipment) from that book. You could use much of it without even having Martial Arts, but some bits would be unclear or incomplete. Technical Grappling is so crunchy and detailed though that if someone is wanting to learn and use it, I'd think they would also want Martial Arts, even for a campaign with no martial artists, for the extra hit locations and basic techniques even if no one trains Styles or Techniques.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996754It introduces a new effect resolution mechanic. Instead of "roll to hit, foe defends, if fail, then he's "Grappled" and at -4 to DX," it posits that not all grapples are created equal, and you make a damage roll based on ST and training (oddly enough called Trained ST) that is on the same table as striking, and accumulating control points - the currency of grappling damage - causes your foe to be more and more restrained. That is, builds up penalties to ST and DX.

You can spend control points to cause injury and other stuff.

There are things that a notional second edition of Technical Grappling would probably do differently, but then, the book was written in 2013 and published in 2015, and the author has a bit more experience with organizing books, writing books, and what works for fast play at the table. Or so he says. :-)

Quote from: estar;996888The basic premise is that you attack normally and instead of doing damage or inflict a condition you build up control points which can be spent on outcomes related to grappling including pinning and doing damage. One of the strengths of the system when multiple people are grappling the use of control points make it clear who has the advantage.

Quote from: Skarg;996913As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

It is tied to GURPS: Martial Arts in that it is written as if you already have that book, and it references several elements (e.g. techniques, hit locations and equipment) from that book. You could use much of it without even having Martial Arts, but some bits would be unclear or incomplete. Technical Grappling is so crunchy and detailed though that if someone is wanting to learn and use it, I'd think they would also want Martial Arts, even for a campaign with no martial artists, for the extra hit locations and basic techniques even if no one trains Styles or Techniques.

I'm sold:D!
And since I'm not running GURPS at the moment, the good part is that it seems like it can be "exported" to Traveller...

Quote from: Skarg;996903I'd gladly pre-order the second edition!
Are there any rumors about what the author might probably do differently?

I'd like to know that, too;).

I love AD&D 2e table. It was quick and easy and ghettoized the fetishism into something playable so the game won't stall. Thankfully overwhelming is still separate there, too, just in case you merely wanna tip someone over and pin 'em down.

Also, if you really had a 'wrassler' or other martial arts fiend you could just have them relabel the moves on the table "accurately," according to them. It's a "useful" busiwork to get their fixations out and away from ongoing play.

If you have the patience for the granularity there was the Complete Fighters Handbook widgets. But that was for the dedicated few who couldn't accept less. :p

Quote from: Skarg;996913As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

It is tied to GURPS: Martial Arts in that it is written as if you already have that book, and it references several elements (e.g. techniques, hit locations and equipment) from that book. You could use much of it without even having Martial Arts, but some bits would be unclear or incomplete. Technical Grappling is so crunchy and detailed though that if someone is wanting to learn and use it, I'd think they would also want Martial Arts, even for a campaign with no martial artists, for the extra hit locations and basic techniques even if no one trains Styles or Techniques.

That sounds cool. I have seen too many systems where it felt like any non-sword play combat mode just led to easier ways to win fights. Ideally a grappling system would be better than sword play in some situations, a wash in others, and worse in others. The idea of control points making things like pin maneuvers not a single roll all or nothing "win", single roll wins are fine, but if it's either no effect or win, it seems to cheapen things. Of course when not used in a D&D-like increasing hit points as you go up levels system it's also going to play better (for D&D with it's abstract hit points, grappling attacks probably really should just do hit points, with arbitration of what going to 0 hit points means if the majority of the attacks are non-lethal).

Frank

Roger Moore had an alternative unarmed combat/grappling rules in Dragon Magazine #83 (How to Finish Fights Faster) that I thought was perfect. It actually scaled well with Oriental Adventure's Martial Arts pretty cleanly.

It handled fist fighting and grappling well. Including WWE type maneuvers etc.

Quote from: Skarg;996903I'd gladly pre-order the second edition!
Are there any rumors about what the author might probably do differently?

Cryptic responses aside:

I'd organize it better. The current book is done like some other GURPS books, in that you have "ALL OF SKILLS," and "ALL TECHNIQUES!" in one place, without much thought as to the core bits that make for basic grappling, and advanced moves that are cool but might see little use. I was able to condense Dungeon Grappling (for 5e) into a two-page (well, one page, but broken into two for clarity in the recent book's layout) quick-start by ruthlessly chopping everything that wasn't basic "grapple, break a grapple, injure the foe" stuff. That's the basics, and that needs to be clear. Right now, the book (TG) is written a bit too much "read the book, then understand the concepts as a whole," which is OK for philosophy but not so good for a reference text, which is what a mechanics-heavy book like this is.

I'd also deal less with floating and constantly variable penalties (the 2 control points is -1 to ST and -1 to DX for ST 10, but adjust the penalty level for DX depending on your ST" is done much, much better with the threshold system I used in Dungeon Grappling. I'd probably give something like three to five levels based on percentage of the target's ST up to 2x the ST value (or maybe 2x Trained ST). Each level would have some penalties associated with it, like the middle one where control is around equal to the foe's ST would be "ST and DX are halved" or something like that. The threshold based system effectively does the "harder to grapple big/strong guys" math for you once, pre-calculated, much like the encumbrance table.

Finally, more examples and how-to included. I've since written some fairly good "what is" and "how to" posts on certain things on my blog that do the system better justice through enhanced clarity.


It's still a good, usable ruleset and the concepts are sound. I've just learned a ton about presentation and writing for brevity and clarity in the last four years.

Quote from: Skarg;996913As the others mentioned, the main new sub-system is control points, which has a bunch of various rules details and options. The grappling system is heavier on the math and details than most other GURPS systems. Things like you've got your foe grabbed for 3 CP on the torso and 5 CP by the neck, with addition, division and rounding involved in giving a CP value for every body part, used for if his actions use those body parts, with penalties to ST and DX based on a fraction of those CP... which is cool once you learn it if you want that level of detail, but it's another level of detail.

Quite, and though most/all of GURPSy details tend to be optional, I didn't give a great feel for what a stripped-down system would look like. Peter Dell'Orto took the core of TG and distilled it into a system he uses with his Dungeon Fantasy campaign, which is relatively rules light. He and I have a fairly strong draft of such a slimmed/improved system kicking around between us, but we keep putting it off.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996956Cryptic responses aside:

I'd organize it better. The current book is done like some other GURPS books, in that you have "ALL OF SKILLS," and "ALL TECHNIQUES!" in one place, without much thought as to the core bits that make for basic grappling, and advanced moves that are cool but might see little use. I was able to condense Dungeon Grappling (for 5e) into a two-page (well, one page, but broken into two for clarity in the recent book's layout) quick-start by ruthlessly chopping everything that wasn't basic "grapple, break a grapple, injure the foe" stuff. That's the basics, and that needs to be clear. Right now, the book (TG) is written a bit too much "read the book, then understand the concepts as a whole," which is OK for philosophy but not so good for a reference text, which is what a mechanics-heavy book like this is.

I'd also deal less with floating and constantly variable penalties (the 2 control points is -1 to ST and -1 to DX for ST 10, but adjust the penalty level for DX depending on your ST" is done much, much better with the threshold system I used in Dungeon Grappling. I'd probably give something like three to five levels based on percentage of the target's ST up to 2x the ST value (or maybe 2x Trained ST). Each level would have some penalties associated with it, like the middle one where control is around equal to the foe's ST would be "ST and DX are halved" or something like that. The threshold based system effectively does the "harder to grapple big/strong guys" math for you once, pre-calculated, much like the encumbrance table.

Finally, more examples and how-to included. I've since written some fairly good "what is" and "how to" posts on certain things on my blog that do the system better justice through enhanced clarity.


It's still a good, usable ruleset and the concepts are sound. I've just learned a ton about presentation and writing for brevity and clarity in the last four years.

For 5e? Is it just me that doesn't know a new GURPS edition is on the horizon, or is that a reference to another game:)?

FWIW, I'm trying to recover my password for e23 as we speak;).

Quote from: DouglasCole;996956Cryptic responses aside: [snip]

Lovely, thank you for taking the time to share that!

Examples do go a long way when learning & confirming involved rules.

Quote from: DouglasCole;996957Quite, and though most/all of GURPSy details tend to be optional, I didn't give a great feel for what a stripped-down system would look like. Peter Dell'Orto took the core of TG and distilled it into a system he uses with his Dungeon Fantasy campaign, which is relatively rules light. He and I have a fairly strong draft of such a slimmed/improved system kicking around between us, but we keep putting it off.

That sounds useful, also as a way to sneak out a way to help learn/see the core rules. Having seen/played that, it'd likely be easier for people to absorb the full Tech Grappling supplement.

Quote from: AsenRG;996976For 5e? Is it just me that doesn't know a new GURPS edition is on the horizon, or is that a reference to another game:)?

No, he means a theoretical reorganization of the Technical Grappling expansion.

Quote from: AsenRG;996976For 5e? Is it just me that doesn't know a new GURPS edition is on the horizon, or is that a reference to another game:)?

FWIW, I'm trying to recover my password for e23 as we speak;).

GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling was published in 2015 by SJG; it requires and builds off of GURPS Martial Arts, modifying the GURPS and GURPS Martial Arts rules to accommodate the control point mechanic where necessary. There are no plans for a second edition; I was just saying what I would do if I could write one.

Dungeon Grappling was published in late 2016 by Gaming Ballistic, LLC and provides a refined version of the control point mechanic for 5e, the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and Swords and Wizardry. It's a stand-alone volume.

Quote from: DouglasCole;997054Dungeon Grappling was published in late 2016 by Gaming Ballistic, LLC and provides a refined version of the control point mechanic for 5e, the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and Swords and Wizardry. It's a stand-alone volume.

5e?  D&D?

Quote from: tenbones;996266As a former wrestler - skill is far more important than Strength, balance, leverage and understanding how to apply that to hold someone is more of a skill than brute power.

As a kid, I remember watching Kung Fu (http://www.britishwrestlersreunion.com/WEBPROTECT-eddiehamillakakungfu.htm) (10 stone wet) beating Giant Haystacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Haystacks) (48 stone) on the telly, using skill against strength/power/size.

Quote from: Headless;9970715e?  D&D?

Yes. Designed as a viable option for DnD games

Quote from: DouglasCole;997089Yes. Designed as a viable option for DnD games

I have no interest in 5e anymore (having tried it), but I am now really curious how that works.

Quote from: soltakss;997088As a kid, I remember watching Kung Fu (http://www.britishwrestlersreunion.com/WEBPROTECT-eddiehamillakakungfu.htm) (10 stone wet) beating Giant Haystacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Haystacks) (48 stone) on the telly, using skill against strength/power/size.

The script gave him the skill.

Are there any rules that include the use of weapons (knives, chains, possibly others) in grappling? Not just in the "I grapple and then I strike with the weapon" but in actually using the weapon in the grapple? Choking with a chain (or a baton) or holding a knife to a throat are really obvious uses, but there are others.

Quote from: HappyDaze;997225Are there any rules that include the use of weapons (knives, chains, possibly others) in grappling? Not just in the "I grapple and then I strike with the weapon" but in actually using the weapon in the grapple? Choking with a chain (or a baton) or holding a knife to a throat are really obvious uses, but there are others.

The "core" GURPS: Martial Arts already has such:).

Quote from: HappyDaze;997225Are there any rules that include the use of weapons (knives, chains, possibly others) in grappling? Not just in the "I grapple and then I strike with the weapon" but in actually using the weapon in the grapple? Choking with a chain (or a baton) or holding a knife to a throat are really obvious uses, but there are others.

Yah - Dungeon Grappling (S&W/OSR, Pathfinder, 5e) and Technical Grappling (GURPS) both purposefully enable grappling with weapons.

It sounds to me that people are looking mostly for detailed and complex rules (that make sense). I tend to have the opposite problem, I think that the flaw in most grappling rules is that they're too complicated. With Arrows of Indra (and with my upcoming Lion & Dragon RPG), I chose to make very streamlined wrestling/grappling rules that tried to be as straightforward as possible.

Quote from: RPGPundit;997739It sounds to me that people are looking mostly for detailed and complex rules (that make sense). I tend to have the opposite problem, I think that the flaw in most grappling rules is that they're too complicated. With Arrows of Indra (and with my upcoming Lion & Dragon RPG), I chose to make very streamlined wrestling/grappling rules that tried to be as straightforward as possible.

Detailed and straightforward don't exclude each other;).

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;997208The script gave him the skill.

That doesn't mean it's not a truism. Skill will beat brute force in the vast majority of contests. Whether that is physical or mental is irrelevant.

For me, ideally, a good grappling system works like this:

Players A chooses to grapple and opponent. They make a standard attack(1), if successful applies a "grappled" condition(2). This condition should universally apply a mechanical criteria to both the grappler and grappled. Being grappled should as a condition should(3) limit ones movement, executable actions, outside of escaping the grapple. Damage is applied subsequent to the establishment of the grappled condition(4).

1- This attack could be non-standard if there are elements to your combat system that allow "special manuevers" to specifically grapple someone. I.e. a martial art that specialize in grappling. So a Wrestler might get a "Shoot" ability to establish a grapple with bonuses to this attempt, or whatever.

2 - Being grappled is not the same as grappling someone. This depends on your task-resolution. I prefer knowing whether the attempt worked or not. No one cares if two people are rolling around in some contested check trying to figure out who grappled who.  Grappling someone does not necessarily confer the same penalties to the person initiating the grapple - unless it's due to failing to succeed. This could also be tied to the skill being used. For example a Wrestler uses his Shoot ability and fails - and lands prone.

3 - The grappled condition should specify what kind of actions the grappled person is allowed assuming they aren't going to escape.  Small weapons? Penalties to defense? No movement? Additionally some martial arts skills might work with a bonus while being grappled. These would be listed under those specific skills, things like reversals even throws, locks etc from a grappled state if one possesses the right skill.

4 - Damage should be based on skill (quality of grapple, ideally if your system has degrees of success) and strength. Other options should be available if you have martial arts in your system that allow for throws, locks, drags (movement/push/pull) etc. that might add to this. OR it could be resolved in #2

This is how I'd do it off the top of my head.

Quote from: tenbones;997803No one cares if two people are rolling around in some contested check trying to figure out who grappled who.

I care. Among other reasons because two people rolling around has an actual effect. The two are a tripping hazard to everyone else. That should matter.

Quote from: Bren;997812I care. Among other reasons because two people rolling around has an actual effect. The two are a tripping hazard to everyone else. That should matter.

And so therefore your system can reflect that by adding more complexity (that I deem unnecessary, but have it your way). What do you call it when someone unsuccessfully grapples someone? Give them them "wrasilin around" condition - where you can iterate more mechanics on that condition there. See? I'm inclusive.

Edit: not convinced of the "tripping hazard" unless you're talking about "mass combat" where I could see it. In general combat where weapons are out, very few people I know of would resort to grappling unless they were very specialized fighters. But again, nothing prevents you from adding such sub-systems to my grappling workflow. Many systems out there do just that - but I think those are the systems that people generally complain about when it comes to grappling complexity.

Quote from: tenbones;997813... Edit: not convinced of the "tripping hazard" unless you're talking about "mass combat" where I could see it. In general combat where weapons are out, very few people I know of would resort to grappling unless they were very specialized fighters. ...

People wraslin' on the floor during weapon combat certainly happens in TFT & GURPS, even if many of them would tend to usually prefer to be standing and using their weapons. And it occupies a fair amount of space especially if there's other terrain (including other fallen bodies) in the area, and is certainly an obstacle to the standing folks, and/or a target of opportunity (also a likely way to accidentally hit your friend while trying to help him by hitting his foe).

Reasons for people doing it sometimes go on and on, e.g. dropped/broken/bound weapons, falling down and getting an opportunity to grab a standing foe's leg, seeing a sudden opportunity to slam or tackle someone, wanting to take a foe out of combat when it'll be difficult to do so quickly with your weapon (e.g. he's in heavy armor), or your side outnumbers the enemy and they're more deadly standing with weapons out, or you want to keep them from running away, take prisoners... etc etc etc

Quote from: RPGPundit;997739It sounds to me that people are looking mostly for detailed and complex rules (that make sense). I tend to have the opposite problem, I think that the flaw in most grappling rules is that they're too complicated. With Arrows of Indra (and with my upcoming Lion & Dragon RPG), I chose to make very streamlined wrestling/grappling rules that tried to be as straightforward as possible.

I agree with the bolded (by me) statement completely. The DG rules were designed to avoid complexity by hewing to mechanics everyone is already familiar with, with a tweak or two that are instantly graspable. Or at least, folks from 10yo to 50yo grasped them with maybe five minutes of introduction at GenCon, and were able to use them smoothly and interchangeably through the sessions I ran. They even got on the old school train with "anything may be attempted" and did some unexpected and awesome things that the rules didn't explicitly cover, but were very easy to adjudicate.

Quote from: tenbones;997813In general combat where weapons are out, very few people I know of would resort to grappling unless they were very specialized fighters.

I don't expect it to be an option people would often choose, but weapons are dropped, break, or get knocked away. And sometimes you want to capture the other guy alive and more or less unharmed.

EDIT: I've been Ninjaed. GURPS can do that. :D

One of the things people in the HEMA community quickly figured out is that wrestling is integral to fencing with one and two handed swords, and daggers with or without a small shield. It is emphasized in all the major manuals, and a significant number of the techniques call for intentionally bringing an exchange to some sort of grappling action, either dropping your own sword or keeping it. And the weapon systems and manuals that are closer to sharp-weapon combat (as opposed to sport) emphasize grappling with weapons more. So, while no one alive really has significant experience fighting earnestly with these things, it is a good bet that no rpg combat system should be thought of as realistic unless it includes wrestling as a core feature, fully integrated with the rest of the system. Not many games meet that criterion, though TFT was an early example that sort of did this, and GURPS with all the combat options turned on is pretty close.

Quote from: tenbones;997803Skill will beat brute force in the vast majority of contests.

I dispute that.  Weight classes in fighting sports exist for a reason.  Roy Jones, Jr, was never as good in the upper weight classes as he was as a middleweight, and he was the most skilled boxer of the time in his prime.

Very true. Anyone who thinks that skill beats 'brute' force in grappling has never fought a competent larger opponent. The only highly size mis-matched wrestling contest I've seen go to the smaller person was between a guy with a decade of intense BJJ training against a guy who liked fighting but hadn't really done anything organized beyond football. And the bigger guy clearly would have won if it had been a fight rather than a formal wrestling match.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;998097I dispute that.  Weight classes in fighting sports exist for a reason.  Roy Jones, Jr, was never as good in the upper weight classes as he was as a middleweight, and he was the most skilled boxer of the time in his prime.

Oh you can dispute it all you want. There's always the exception that proves the rule.

As far as weight classes in sports are concerned: I answered upthread, its the removal of extraneous advantages in presumably similarly skilled fighters. That's the *presumption* of sport weight classes. To give no one an obvious advantage within the context of the sport. Because the adage - a Good Big man will always beat a Good Small man is also a general truth.

But if you want to make things more obvious and directly to the point:

165lbs Brazilian Jiu Jitsu specialist vs. 264lbs bodybuilder
https://youtu.be/0tzjcEgPWpM

158lbs greco-roman wrestler vs 339lbs bodybuilder
https://youtu.be/JpvrVe9GIAk

140lbs boxer vs. 320lbs strongman Eddie Hall
https://youtu.be/9aIUrPrzEwU

I could go on. Skill will almost always beat brute force in combat. This doesn't mean being a muscle-bound meathead precludes you from having actual skill - see the difference? The moment that happens, you then become a skilled combatant that happens to be strong as hell too.

Quote from: Larsdangly;998105competent larger opponent.

Then you're talking about skill on skill that happens to be physically stronger. Not skill vs. brute force. Hence the weight-classes in *sports*.

In your example I would dispute your criteria for "skill" equating to time served in training. There is a big difference between training for a fight and actually fighting and being skilled at fighting. Sure there's a general correlation - but I will submit there are *vastly* no good examples of any non-trained fighter, I don't care *how* strong or big they are, beating a real* Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black-belt in a streetfight or a contest without some serious mitigating circumstances. I'd extend this even to brown-belts in BJJ. Purple? Maaayyybe.

I would submit the same for a non-trained fighter going against a Division 1 or Division 2 collegiate wrestler too.

* - meaning they trained with the Machados, the Gracies or one of their students.

Edit: and the reason why is simple training. Skilled grapplers (and by this I'm using the demarcation of someone with a BJJ blackbelt, or someone on a Division 1/2 squad) - are people that have spend *thousands* of hours on the mat going 110% just to get to that level which is a baseline for "skilled". If we're talking about people that dabble (like me - I wrestled for 6 years and in my prime I'd have been barely skilled, now? pfft. Against a nobody, I'd fuck them up. Against anyone active with a modicum of skill - I'd get trashed) that's not a fair standard for what I'm talking about.

Quote from: Bren;997949I don't expect it to be an option people would often choose, but weapons are dropped, break, or get knocked away. And sometimes you want to capture the other guy alive and more or less unharmed.

EDIT: I've been Ninjaed. GURPS can do that. :D

My "issue" - it's not really an issue - is that I have never run/played in a game where it required that kind of detail. Not because I wouldn't be interested, but mainly because outside of running Cyberpunk2020, and even then we go for my cinematic fare bordering on Matrix-fu, that the rolling around on the ground/struggling for the weapon simply wouldn't happen outside of unskilled fighters. Most of my players tend to resort to skilled gunplay or skilled hand-to-hand where stuff like this would never happen.

And a large part of this over everything else is the systems we use don't really call for it. Probably why I don't use GURPS (players hate it).

Quote from: Larsdangly;998087One of the things people in the HEMA community quickly figured out is that wrestling is integral to fencing with one and two handed swords, and daggers with or without a small shield. It is emphasized in all the major manuals, and a significant number of the techniques call for intentionally bringing an exchange to some sort of grappling action, either dropping your own sword or keeping it. And the weapon systems and manuals that are closer to sharp-weapon combat (as opposed to sport) emphasize grappling with weapons more. So, while no one alive really has significant experience fighting earnestly with these things, it is a good bet that no rpg combat system should be thought of as realistic unless it includes wrestling as a core feature, fully integrated with the rest of the system. Not many games meet that criterion, though TFT was an early example that sort of did this, and GURPS with all the combat options turned on is pretty close.

When your weapons are not adequate to deal with each other's armor unless one of you gets lucky and neither of you gets lucky, you will often wind up on the floor. Early jujutsu put a lot of emphasis on eye-gouging, partly because one cannot armor ones eyes.

Quote from: Larsdangly;998087One of the things people in the HEMA community quickly figured out is that wrestling is integral to fencing with one and two handed swords, and daggers with or without a small shield. It is emphasized in all the major manuals, and a significant number of the techniques call for intentionally bringing an exchange to some sort of grappling action, either dropping your own sword or keeping it. And the weapon systems and manuals that are closer to sharp-weapon combat (as opposed to sport) emphasize grappling with weapons more. So, while no one alive really has significant experience fighting earnestly with these things, it is a good bet that no rpg combat system should be thought of as realistic unless it includes wrestling as a core feature, fully integrated with the rest of the system. Not many games meet that criterion, though TFT was an early example that sort of did this, and GURPS with all the combat options turned on is pretty close.

Or you could say "A round of combat is one minute, and there's all kinds of mayhem going on, and the die roll represents whether or not at the end of a minute you've done anything useful to the other bugger."

Just like OD&D.

Abstraction is your friend.

Quote from: tenbones;998125And a large part of this over everything else is the systems we use don't really call for it. Probably why I don't use GURPS (players hate it).

If the systems you use don't include weapons breaking, dropping, or getting knocked away then you are at a level of abstraction way beyond what I tend to enjoy. I initially responded because it seemed you didn't know anyone who wanted that level of detail. Not wanting it yourself and not knowing anyone who would ever want it aren't the same thing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998139Or you could say "A round of combat is one minute, and there's all kinds of mayhem going on, and the die roll represents whether or not at the end of a minute you've done anything useful to the other bugger."

Just like OD&D.

Abstraction is your friend.

Some people enjoy playing out the combat blow by blow.

Quote from: Bren;998141If the systems you use don't include weapons breaking, dropping, or getting knocked away then you are at a level of abstraction way beyond what I tend to enjoy. I initially responded because it seemed you didn't know anyone who wanted that level of detail. Not wanting it yourself and not knowing anyone who would ever want it aren't the same thing.

Hmm. I play actively pretty standard fare (D&D, Savage Worlds, Talislanta, CP2020, FFG Star Wars off the top of my head). All of those things could happen in combat - but they tend to be active things people DO. Not incidental as a part of combat. So I don't agree with the abstraction comment at all. My players tend to not do them as their characters fight by other means.

Currently I have a player whose character does specialize in grappling - in Savage Worlds using a grappling chain. But he's so good at it, that rolling around and disarming people would not be as effective as him simply choking people out. /shrug.

Not wanting it myself/Not knowing anyone - Well if the game conceits involved that kind of combat over everything else, I generally wouldn't have a problem with it. I've GMed at conventions and my general playerbase which is a cross section of hundreds of players over the years - I don't know *anyone* that has ever liked grappling rules with this level of detail. Of course I'm sure there are. But then otherwise why would this thread exist? I still stand by my point: it's not necessary unless you really want it.

Take Gronan's response - I'm not even satisfied with that level of abstraction, but I'm vastly closer to that than wanting the roll-around-the-ground-struggling-for-the-gun type combat with multiple rolls per round where nothing might happen because "mechanics".

Quote from: tenbones;998150Hmm. I play actively pretty standard fare (D&D, Savage Worlds, Talislanta, CP2020, FFG Star Wars off the top of my head). All of those things could happen in combat - but they tend to be active things people DO. Not incidental as a part of combat. So I don't agree with the abstraction comment at all. My players tend to not do them as their characters fight by other means.

Nobody chooses to or accidentally breaks a weapon, drops a weapon, disarms a foe or is disarmed by a foe? Unless those outcomes are abstracted away, say by a 1 minute combat round, not seeing (or virtually never seeing) those outcomes seems weird to me.

QuoteCurrently I have a player whose character does specialize in grappling...

This is not what I was referring to. But it does raise the question in my mind of bar fights and brawls. Do brawls also never (or virtually never) happen to the PCs?

Quote from: Dumarest;998145Some people enjoy playing out the combat blow by blow.

Sure they do.  Fantasy Hero is actually pretty neat for that; I like the way Skill Levels can be used for attack, defense, damage, or stun.  It works really well for 1 PC vs one enemy.

The more people involved, I submit the more abstraction needed.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998162The more people involved, I submit the more abstraction needed.

Needed? No. But since there is a direct relationship between number of combatants and time to resolve and an inverse relation between time required to resolve and degree of abstraction, more abstraction may be desirable if we want to resolve things in less than geological time.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998139Or you could say "A round of combat is one minute, and there's all kinds of mayhem going on, and the die roll represents whether or not at the end of a minute you've done anything useful to the other bugger."

Just like OD&D.

Abstraction is your friend.

I'm cool with abstraction; the abstract nature of D&D combat (at least, as implemented in the OOP editions I play) is why you can resolve most fights in a couple of minutes, an spend the rest of your time making more interesting decisions. One of the hugest mistakes in the more recent editions to the D&D family of games was to to try to turn it into a combat engine, which turned fights into 1-2 hour affairs, which basically trashed the rest of your session. Just dumb, and not what the game is about. But there are other games under the sun. TFT started as a gladiatorial board game, and that game is great. In that case, the whole point of playing is to resolve an individual fight. D&D completely sucks at that kind of thing.

Quote from: Bren;998159Nobody chooses to or accidentally breaks a weapon, drops a weapon, disarms a foe or is disarmed by a foe? Unless those outcomes are abstracted away, say by a 1 minute combat round, not seeing (or virtually never seeing) those outcomes seems weird to me.

I can't think of a single system I've run where anything accidental where a weapon breaks/drops is not the result of a fumble of some sort. Disarming has always been a discrete action.

I'm not a fan of 1-minutes rounds, too war-gamey feeling for me. I like blow by blow (which is weird given my general dislike for too many mechanics - this thread is crystalizing my opinion rapidly on why - specifically as it pertains to grappling) - and that is: Grappling historically is underutilized because it is inefficient in most game-systems. This is not to say it doesn't have its uses. It's that for the purposes of rendering an opponent inert, in most systems it's a mechanically inefficient way to do it - before we even discuss roleplaying reasons, situational reasons which might demand it etc.

Unless you're playing a grappling specialist, most systems have cumbersome rules that preclude grappling as a viable option for most players who want to have skilled combatant PC's within the context of the game (i.e. no trying to be realistic). I suspect this is the fault of designers and gives much more weight to Gronan's position of high-abstraction, which has it's own requirements that new RPG players haven't gotten to yet (GM trust > mechanical trust).

This is making me reconsider a few things about my next project. Grappling rules done well.

Quote from: Bren;998159This is not what I was referring to. But it does raise the question in my mind of bar fights and brawls. Do brawls also never (or virtually never) happen to the PCs?

See? This is an excellent point. My PC's do get into bar-room brawls because to them - it doesn't "feel" like "real combat". It's kids-gloves etc. - which arguably it should be, since not all fights should be lethal. And here is the ghetto that grappling rules for most characters live. In the bar-room brawl. And I think that sucks.

Quote from: Larsdangly;998170I'm cool with abstraction; the abstract nature of D&D combat (at least, as implemented in the OOP editions I play) is why you can resolve most fights in a couple of minutes, an spend the rest of your time making more interesting decisions. One of the hugest mistakes in the more recent editions to the D&D family of games was to to try to turn it into a combat engine, which turned fights into 1-2 hour affairs, which basically trashed the rest of your session. Just dumb, and not what the game is about. But there are other games under the sun. TFT started as a gladiatorial board game, and that game is great. In that case, the whole point of playing is to resolve an individual fight. D&D completely sucks at that kind of thing.

This is exactly why I like grappling in FASERIP. Combat doesn't last long because taking someone out generally doesn't require a lot of damage or effort. Here Grappling serves as viable of a means of defeating/restraining someone, rewards high-skill and high-strength and resolves insanely fast.

Quote from: Larsdangly;998170I'm cool with abstraction; the abstract nature of D&D combat (at least, as implemented in the OOP editions I play) is why you can resolve most fights in a couple of minutes, an spend the rest of your time making more interesting decisions. One of the hugest mistakes in the more recent editions to the D&D family of games was to to try to turn it into a combat engine, which turned fights into 1-2 hour affairs, which basically trashed the rest of your session. Just dumb, and not what the game is about. But there are other games under the sun. TFT started as a gladiatorial board game, and that game is great. In that case, the whole point of playing is to resolve an individual fight. D&D completely sucks at that kind of thing.

Oh Crom.

I'm playing PATHFINDER right now.  Because I like the people, that's why.

A combat really does take 2 hours or more.

And yes, the TFT vs D&D thing is dead on.  D&D's roots are a mass combat system, not a duel game.  Conversely, I know a TFT ref who recently ran a fortress attack with about 20 to 25 people on each side, and it took something like 4 or 5 six-hour sessions.  I would not run a siege with TFT, just like I would not run Teutenburg Wald with a gladiatorial combat game.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998174...Conversely, I know a TFT ref who recently ran a fortress attack with about 20 to 25 people on each side, and it took something like 4 or 5 six-hour sessions.

Granted it takes longer than an abstract system, but how did it take that long? Was it lots and lots of arrow shots at people in cover at long range, and then chopping down portcullises with smallaxes?

Quote from: tenbones;998172I can't think of a single system I've run where anything accidental where a weapon breaks/drops is not the result of a fumble of some sort. Disarming has always been a discrete action.

Don't fumbles occur? Does no one think disarming their foe is useful? And do those two things not result in an unarmed foe who may have to grapple? These things you just said are in the systems you play are exactly what I was talking about. :confused:

It feels like we are talking past each other.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998174I'm playing PATHFINDER right now.

Well that explains why you have so much time to post here. You're doing that during combat while waiting for your turn to come around, am I right? :D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998162Sure they do.  Fantasy Hero is actually pretty neat for that; I like the way Skill Levels can be used for attack, defense, damage, or stun.  It works really well for 1 PC vs one enemy.

The more people involved, I submit the more abstraction needed.

The more time needed, sure. The level of abstraction is always optional. I'm not interested in playing out a battle between dozens of guys and having to roll for each sword stroke or laser blast. But if Iron Fist and Shang  Chi meet up in the mighty Marvel manner of mysterious misunderstandings and mistake each other for malevolent masked mutant menaces that must be mitigated by macho melee, then half the fun is the blow by blow.

Quote from: danskmacabre;996690I found the DMG added a lot to 5e, especially clarifications in combat and lots of optional rules you can switch on or off.
5e before the DMG was probably TOO vague and inconsistent it's true.  Especially definitions of combat options, the weird usage of Skill kits (lock licks kits etc), ambushing (passive perception etc).

Early print runs of the PHB also had a typo or omission in the grapple feat text.

QuoteGrappler (p. 167). Ignore the third benefit;
it refers to a nonexistent rule.

Quote from: Dumarest;998278But if Iron Fist and Shang  Chi meet up in the mighty Marvel manner of mysterious misunderstandings and mistake each other for malevolent masked mutant menaces that must be mitigated by macho melee, then half the fun is the [strike]blow by blow[/strike] meticulous minutia of the mangling, mauling, and maiming motivated by their match-up.

Not enough alliteration.

Quote from: Bren;998306Not enough alliteration.

Stan Lee is turning green somewhere.

Scratch out "half the fun" and replace with "most of the merit."

Quote from: Dumarest;998325Stan Lee is turning green somewhere.

Scratch out "half the fun" and replace with "most of the merit."

'Nuff said.

Quote from: Dumarest;998278The more time needed, sure. The level of abstraction is always optional. I'm not interested in playing out a battle between dozens of guys and having to roll for each sword stroke or laser blast. But if Iron Fist and Shang  Chi meet up in the mighty Marvel manner of mysterious misunderstandings and mistake each other for malevolent masked mutant menaces that must be mitigated by macho melee, then half the fun is the blow by blow.

Oh HELL yes.  That's why CHAMPIONS was such a smashing success.  And most comic books, at least back in the day, followed an almost universal pattern:

1) Hero spends a page wiping up something easy to show he's a hero
2) Exposition to set up the menace of the month
3) Fight that lasts most of the issue
4) Wrap up in a page or two

Quote from: Skarg;998183Granted it takes longer than an abstract system, but how did it take that long? Was it lots and lots of arrow shots at people in cover at long range, and then chopping down portcullises with smallaxes?

It was a small number of combatants in a large fortress.  A lot of time was spent just moving, as poor shots fired shortbows at long range at mailed targets.

Quote from: Dumarest;998325Stan Lee is turning green somewhere.

Scratch out "half the fun" and replace with "most of the merit."

Quote from: Bren;998330'Nuff said.

Excelsior!

Quote from: Bren;998188Don't fumbles occur? Does no one think disarming their foe is useful? And do those two things not result in an unarmed foe who may have to grapple? These things you just said are in the systems you play are exactly what I was talking about. :confused:

It feels like we are talking past each other.

I don't consider fumbles which can occur anywhere in any game "grappling rules". Grappling rules for me are specific to the act of making a "grapple" (which ideally includes all the stuff I posted in what I want in grappling rules.) Narrative mechanics or just extraneous sub-systems that replicate things you could possible do while "grappling" do not count for me. At least that's what I'm talking about in relation to the point of the thread: Grappling rules that don't suck. As opposed to "Rules that simulate effects that could happen if we had actually grappling rules."

As for disarming foes - sure. But it depends. Most of my players enjoy playing specialists. Unless they play someone that is inherently a defensive specialist in some form - "Disarming" is a secondary consideration at best. And almost never when it comes to formal combat outside of grappling specialization OR some ability that allows them to disarm without grappling.

Quote from: Bren;998330'Nuff said.

No-Prizes to you both!

Quote from: tenbones;998370No-Prizes to you both!

Matchless magnanimity! But we mustn't misremember and merely memorialize majestic melee! Marvel also meritoriously mooted monthly moderately meandering and mildly maudlin and morose modern melodrama such as mild-mannered Aunt May's matronly mollycoddling.

Seriously, AD&D 2e scales up and down from mass combat to blow-by-blow duels, even in hand-to-hand fumbles, stumbles, & grapples, surprisingly well. It turns on & off switches surprisingly well and then gets outta the away. You may laugh, I laughed too, but even the tables fun is solidness in practice.
:p

Quote from: tenbones;996946Roger Moore had an alternative unarmed combat/grappling rules in Dragon Magazine #83 (How to Finish Fights Faster) that I thought was perfect. It actually scaled well with Oriental Adventure's Martial Arts pretty cleanly.

It handled fist fighting and grappling well. Including WWE type maneuvers etc.

And a good one on martial arts.

Quote from: Larsdangly;998105Very true. Anyone who thinks that skill beats 'brute' force in grappling has never fought a competent larger opponent. The only highly size mis-matched wrestling contest I've seen go to the smaller person was between a guy with a decade of intense BJJ training against a guy who liked fighting but hadn't really done anything organized beyond football. And the bigger guy clearly would have won if it had been a fight rather than a formal wrestling match.

Thats not skill beats brute force then. Thats skill vs brute force+skill.

Quote from: Omega;998415Thats not skill beats brute force then. Thats skill vs brute force+skill.

That doesn't make any sense. How is a couple years of high school football equivalent to a decade of BJJ training? Anyone who understands the first thing about competitive martial arts knows that a casual jock is not the same thing as a seasoned, trained wrestler.

Quote from: Larsdangly;998426That doesn't make any sense. How is a couple years of high school football equivalent to a decade of BJJ training? Anyone who understands the first thing about competitive martial arts knows that a casual jock is not the same thing as a seasoned, trained wrestler.

Easy. Because "skilled" is a relative qualifier.

Being a big strong ox also requires skill to attain. It's just that those skills are not specific to combat. A football player with a lot of experience generally is *very good* at tackling someone. But they're not good at necessarily finishing someone off on the ground, or even holding them down, or manipulating them to put them in finishing positions in actual combat. Training in a dojo learning katas without ever putting those moves to the test is nothing but dancing. I don't give a crap what Mr. Miyagi bullshit people believe. No sparring = no experience. Same goes for lifting weights and being a "brute" in terms of combat.

There are fake BJJ blackbelts that dabble in BJJ but are sloppy as fuck. Does it qualify them as being "skilled" just by dint of time-served messing around in a BJJ club? Not necessarily. Time-served *usually* correlates to skill, but combat skills are very complex things. This is why, particularly in BJJ, the pedigree of the instructor matters. They do a generally good job of policing themselves. But there are plenty of phony BJJ clubs (and most dojos of varying styles) that only do "theory" as opposed to actual training.

So "skill" in combat is a discrete item from "strength". They complement each other, but in terms of combat - actual skill will almost always beat strength alone in a fight.

What we're really discussing here without pinning it down is: what is "skilled"? I'm old school. When you've mastered all the basics and can execute them in proper form and function at the appropriate time, you're "skilled". So normally a blackbelt*. But this also depends on who trains you. I'd apply this to pedigreed students from known instructors. In terms of non-belt grappling sports like wrestling - that's easy too. If you make a Division 1 or 2 team, you're definitely skilled. You wouldn't make it that far otherwise.

Barring that - then it goes back to the criteria of having mastered the basics in full execution. Beyond that, you're talking mastery skills of specialized forms and abilities which continue for life.

This applies to most concepts of skill vs. raw stat - but of course there are always exceptions.

*blackbelt - assuming good pedigree and having gone through the regimen that grants your those basics I listed above. In terms of BJJ - I'd probably include brownbelts too from a reputable club.

Quote from: tenbones;998369I don't consider fumbles which can occur anywhere in any game "grappling rules".

:confused: I have no idea how this statement relates to anything in the discussion that I said or that you previously said.

What I said was that combatants who lost their weapons could reasonably need to use grappling since they have no weapon (or none in hand). And that weapons could be lost or broken due to intentional action (e.g. a disarm maneuver) or to accidental action (e.g. a fumble). So fumbles are one way that Combatant A could end up with no weapon in hand. Which might then cause Combatant A to choose to attack or defend by grappling.

QuoteAs for disarming foes - sure. But it depends. Most of my players enjoy playing specialists. Unless they play someone that is inherently a defensive specialist in some form - "Disarming" is a secondary consideration at best. And almost never when it comes to formal combat outside of grappling specialization OR some ability that allows them to disarm without grappling.

I'm getting the impression that the rules you use don't allow disarm as a normal action. So only combatants with some special ability can try to disarm other combatants. Is that correct?

Quote from: Bren;998495:confused: I have no idea how this statement relates to anything in the discussion that I said or that you previously said.

What I said was that combatants who lost their weapons could reasonably need to use grappling since they have no weapon (or none in hand). And that weapons could be lost or broken due to intentional action (e.g. a disarm maneuver) or to accidental action (e.g. a fumble). So fumbles are one way that Combatant A could end up with no weapon in hand. Which might then cause Combatant A to choose to attack or defend by grappling.

Yeah I'm trying to stay on topic, heh. In all honesty - when fumbles and disarms have occurred by intention, I can't think of a single time when any player has ever resorted to initiating grappling as a more optimal path than retrieving their weapon (if possible) or otherwise running away.

I'm sure it's happened at some point. But it must have been so ineffectual, or non-impact that it simply doesn't register to my memory. And my memory is pretty good (so far).

Quote from: Bren;998495I'm getting the impression that the rules you use don't allow disarm as a normal action. So only combatants with some special ability can try to disarm other combatants. Is that correct?

These days I'm playing a lot of Savage Worlds (Beasts and Barbarians currently). Disarming is very much part of the system - but most of my players, again, are very specialized combatants and disarming is rarely a better choice than their schtick. I've disarmed them with my NPC's, but it doesn't register to any of them as being worth doing. /shrug.

Quote from: tenbones;998369I don't consider fumbles which can occur anywhere in any game "grappling rules".

Some examples of fumbles in grappling/Wrestling:
Throwing an opponent to the floor and losing grip
Striking someone and breaking your own fingers
Jumping off a post and hitting the floor badly, breaking your arm

Or, are you saying that you expect Grappling Rules to only be about grappling and not contain generic rules?

Quote from: soltakss;998797are you saying that you expect Grappling Rules to only be about grappling and not contain generic rules?

Close! I'm saying that the core mechanics of combat, in whatever system you're using, should be obeyed. Grappling should leverage those rules for discrete use specifically for grappling shenannigans. That abstractions of the mechanics should remains uniform but the conditions they convey should be specific.

Example - in my version of FASERIP - you make a grapple check exactly like you'd make any other melee attack. Your options for defense are the same as they would be against any other melee attack. However, if successful, and depending on the degree of success - the grapple will impart specific conditions upon the target. These conditions will dictate offense and defensive options going forward until the target can escape.

At no point do the inherent mechanics of the game change for the sub-routine of grappling, the only thing that changes are the conditions and options of what you can/can't do while grappled.


Now each stage of this process can/should be modified for skills, proficiences, gear, environment - just like any other form of combat. Again this adheres to the general core rule of the combat engine of any system.

What I don't like is when it gets too far into the weeds of weird mechanics that go outside the core conceits pf a system. D&D is particularly odd about it, and unnecessarily so. Fumbles doing *anything* can be easily abstracted depending on what everyone is doing. I don't think that maneuvers like Disarm, Trip, Throw, etc. should necessarily be segregated only for grappling either. But they should be codified into grappling sub-system mechanics for sure.

My suspicions about why this is - and I'd love to hear Gronan and some others that are familiar with the backstory of the origin's of D&D's system, their opinion on this - is that there was never any real assumption that fighting with your bare-hands, grappling or otherwise (outside of the Monk class), would ever be competitive with a weapon, because they wanted it to be "realistic". Hence bare-handed handed fighting always did 1-point of damage (+Str bonus) and you rolled on the crazy chart, and it was non-lethal.

They work fine in Champions. Getting grabbed by a strong guy who knows what he's doing sucks. Getting grabbed by The Hulk sucks even more. This is reflected in the rules. And if you've learned to count Normal Damage BODY and adjust CVs for maneuvers, you've already gotten over most of the learning curve.

Quote from: tenbones;998116Then you're talking about skill on skill that happens to be physically stronger. Not skill vs. brute force. Hence the weight-classes in *sports*.

In your example I would dispute your criteria for "skill" equating to time served in training. There is a big difference between training for a fight and actually fighting and being skilled at fighting. Sure there's a general correlation - but I will submit there are *vastly* no good examples of any non-trained fighter, I don't care *how* strong or big they are, beating a real* Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black-belt in a streetfight or a contest without some serious mitigating circumstances. I'd extend this even to brown-belts in BJJ. Purple? Maaayyybe.

I would submit the same for a non-trained fighter going against a Division 1 or Division 2 collegiate wrestler too.

* - meaning they trained with the Machados, the Gracies or one of their students.

Edit: and the reason why is simple training. Skilled grapplers (and by this I'm using the demarcation of someone with a BJJ blackbelt, or someone on a Division 1/2 squad) - are people that have spend *thousands* of hours on the mat going 110% just to get to that level which is a baseline for "skilled". If we're talking about people that dabble (like me - I wrestled for 6 years and in my prime I'd have been barely skilled, now? pfft. Against a nobody, I'd fuck them up. Against anyone active with a modicum of skill - I'd get trashed) that's not a fair standard for what I'm talking about.

I think what you are trying to say here is that you are Level 3.

Quote from: Dumarest;998375Matchless magnanimity! But we mustn't misremember and merely memorialize majestic melee! Marvel also meritoriously mooted monthly moderately meandering and mildly maudlin and morose modern melodrama such as mild-mannered Aunt May's matronly mollycoddling.

Good show M.

Quote from: tenbones;998805Close! I'm saying that the core mechanics of combat, in whatever system you're using, should be obeyed. Grappling should leverage those rules for discrete use specifically for grappling shenannigans. That abstractions of the mechanics should remains uniform but the conditions they convey should be specific.

Oh, that makes sense, thanks.

Quote from: kosmos1214;998901Good show M.

As an alumnus of the Stan Lee American Academy of Alliteration for Aspiring Authors, an accredited association active  in avoiding atrocious Anglophonic asonance and achieving actual awesome alphabetical  artistry, adulation, approbation, and acknowledgment of assidousness  are absolutely approved and accepted!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1740[/ATTACH]

Nice. Earthdawn 4th rules use the unified system already in place. Grappling is an Unarmed Combat vs Phys Defense test with one extra success requires (PD +5 - one of the various things that cost an extra success). Success on a grapple test restricts the target's movement and options, and at GM call the target needs to roll higher than the grappler's Unarmed Combat step to do anything (like reverse the grapple, break off, draw a weapon, etc). Breaking off/reversing the grapple costs your action and an Unarmed Combat or Strength step test vs the grappler's Unarmed Combat step. Grapple is automatically held if the grappler spends their action (but can use simple/free actions like swift Kick, Second Weapon, etc).

Almost lost a party to grappling knife-specialist Theif Adepts in Kratas once.

Has anyone seen the John Wick / Keanu Reeves movies? How would your favorite system handle modeling his gun and hth grappling skills?

HM

Feng Shui is the best cinematic martial arts game out there I think but it is far from granular if that's what you're looking for.

Quote from: Hyper-Man;999476Has anyone seen the John Wick / Keanu Reeves movies? How would your favorite system handle modeling his gun and hth grappling skills?

HM

By taking the Killer or the Spy archetype, I guess. Feng Shui 2 doesn't really differentiate between grappling and striking, so it can do cinematic grappling as easily as cinematic kung-fu kicks:).


I'm reading Dungeon Grappling, and getting a feeling that I really need to get GURPS Tactical Grappling;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1001803I'm reading Dungeon Grappling, and getting a feeling that I really need to get GURPS Tactical Grappling;).

Both products are great, to be sure. I've just been gearing up to use Technical Grappling "seriously" for the first time in my currently running campaign, as a matter of fact.